MaxLevel_King
He/Him- 356
- 64
Proposal: Many of the Servants on this wiki should have the Low 1-C Tier either removed or prefaced with "Only in the Moon Cell" as the scaling for Low 1-C only comes from feats accomplished in the Moon Cell and not anywhere else.
Argument for Low 1-C Tier: "Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Not only are Servants weakened compared to their living selves and the Heroic Spirit dwelling in the Root of Akasha, Gaia has counter-measures in place to prevent the World from being destroyed. In the Extraverse (Moon Cell), the Mythological Mystic Code Servants (Nero, Tamamo, Nameless, Gilgamesh) had their true power awakened and had a chance of winning against BB, a Low 1-C being who scales to the Moon Cell. Therefore, Regular Servants scale to their Moon Cell counterparts."
My Counter-Argument:
1. Not all Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Among the ones that are nerfed, they're not necessarily vastly weaker compared to when they were alive.
2. While Gaia does have counter-measures in place, it can't forcibly weaken Servants (Alaya) that it doesn't have a connection with. If a Servant possessed a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the World, Gaia couldn't weaken that Noble Phantasm.
3. Da Vinci stated during the Shinjuku Pseudo-Singularity that there isn't a single Servant with a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the Planet. She had already seen Gilgamesh's EA in use, which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.
4. There are no Servants that possess an "Anti-Planet" Noble Phantasm. There are Servants such as Gilgamesh that possess an Anti-World Noble Phantasm, but they can't actually destroy the World. Anti-World refers to the texture of reality that humans live on, not the Planet. Furthermore, the "Anti-" part doesn't necessarily mean capable of destroying, but simply effective against.
5. The rest of the Moon Cell Servants scale to the Mythological Mystic Code Servants who scale to BB. However, it was stated that even with the Mythological Mystic Code equipped, the Servants wearing them only had a 0.99% chance of winning against BB. Furthermore, regular Moon Cell Servants aren't comparable in power to Mythological Mystic Code Servants.
6. The Mythological Mystic Code doesn't awaken Servants to the power they had in life, it awakens them to the power of their Origin Concept, which is vastly superior to their living self.
7. Amaterasu was stated to be the strongest being in Extra (stronger than BB and Kiara) and her power level is equivalent to that of the Sun, as she literally is the Sun. Unlike the Divine Spirits of the Earth, she was stated to be of the Universe. A 4-C being was stated to be stronger than everyone in the Moon Cell.
8. Due to being inside a simulation of reality, Servants can exploit loopholes and bugs to do things that they aren't capable of in reality (outside of the Moon Cell).
9. The Moon Cell itself, ie the physical supercomputer on the moon isn't Low 1-C. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities inside of the Moon Cell. The Authority that the Moon Cell has over it's simulated realities doesn't extend to outside of itself.
10. None of the Moon Cell Servants have feats remotely comparable to Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell.
11. The highest calced feat for the Nasuverse is only 5-B (Arcueid Moon Drop).
12. Karna, one of the strongest Servants throughout the entire series, possess a Noble Phantasm that is only Anti-Country.
13. BB only has Low 1-C hax, she doesn't have Low 1-C durability.
Scans/Sources/Links:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
Note: In regards to #9, the Moon Cell having "the supreme ability to affect the outside world with its internal calculations" isn't implying that the Authority it possesses over it's simulated realities extends to the outside world. Its referring to the records of history it keeps as well as it's predictive ability.
Argument for Low 1-C Tier: "Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Not only are Servants weakened compared to their living selves and the Heroic Spirit dwelling in the Root of Akasha, Gaia has counter-measures in place to prevent the World from being destroyed. In the Extraverse (Moon Cell), the Mythological Mystic Code Servants (Nero, Tamamo, Nameless, Gilgamesh) had their true power awakened and had a chance of winning against BB, a Low 1-C being who scales to the Moon Cell. Therefore, Regular Servants scale to their Moon Cell counterparts."
My Counter-Argument:
1. Not all Servants are nerfed by their Servant containers. Among the ones that are nerfed, they're not necessarily vastly weaker compared to when they were alive.
2. While Gaia does have counter-measures in place, it can't forcibly weaken Servants (Alaya) that it doesn't have a connection with. If a Servant possessed a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the World, Gaia couldn't weaken that Noble Phantasm.
3. Da Vinci stated during the Shinjuku Pseudo-Singularity that there isn't a single Servant with a Noble Phantasm capable of destroying the Planet. She had already seen Gilgamesh's EA in use, which is an Anti-World Noble Phantasm.
4. There are no Servants that possess an "Anti-Planet" Noble Phantasm. There are Servants such as Gilgamesh that possess an Anti-World Noble Phantasm, but they can't actually destroy the World. Anti-World refers to the texture of reality that humans live on, not the Planet. Furthermore, the "Anti-" part doesn't necessarily mean capable of destroying, but simply effective against.
5. The rest of the Moon Cell Servants scale to the Mythological Mystic Code Servants who scale to BB. However, it was stated that even with the Mythological Mystic Code equipped, the Servants wearing them only had a 0.99% chance of winning against BB. Furthermore, regular Moon Cell Servants aren't comparable in power to Mythological Mystic Code Servants.
6. The Mythological Mystic Code doesn't awaken Servants to the power they had in life, it awakens them to the power of their Origin Concept, which is vastly superior to their living self.
7. Amaterasu was stated to be the strongest being in Extra (stronger than BB and Kiara) and her power level is equivalent to that of the Sun, as she literally is the Sun. Unlike the Divine Spirits of the Earth, she was stated to be of the Universe. A 4-C being was stated to be stronger than everyone in the Moon Cell.
8. Due to being inside a simulation of reality, Servants can exploit loopholes and bugs to do things that they aren't capable of in reality (outside of the Moon Cell).
9. The Moon Cell itself, ie the physical supercomputer on the moon isn't Low 1-C. What is Low 1-C are the simulated realities inside of the Moon Cell. The Authority that the Moon Cell has over it's simulated realities doesn't extend to outside of itself.
10. None of the Moon Cell Servants have feats remotely comparable to Low 1-C outside of the Moon Cell.
11. The highest calced feat for the Nasuverse is only 5-B (Arcueid Moon Drop).
12. Karna, one of the strongest Servants throughout the entire series, possess a Noble Phantasm that is only Anti-Country.
13. BB only has Low 1-C hax, she doesn't have Low 1-C durability.
Scans/Sources/Links:
1.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Servant?so=search#Strength Container Parameters - Unmodified by the strengths and weaknesses of specific Heroic Spirits, the containers of the seven standard Servant classes of the Fuyuki Grail War possess known base parameters.[146] The parameters of the containers has not been shown to affect summoned Servants, allowing for parameters higher and lower than those of the containers. If the hero should be utterly weak to the point of defenselessness like Stheno and Euryale, it is possible for the containers to increase their strength far beyond their regular selves. |
2.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Counter_Force?so=search Although Gaia and Alaya are intangible forces of will, each does enlist physical agents to deal with events too threatening to address with indirect intervention. The agents of Gaia consist of the Elementals such as: Lugh Beowulf, Fairies, True Ancestors, some Phantasmal Species, and some Divine Spirits. The agents of Alaya are Heroic Spirits[5] and the Counter Guardians, human spirits who pledge their eternal service to Alaya in return for power during their lifetime. |
3.
| Source: 2:45:01 |
4.
| Source: 2:45:07 Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Texture?so=search The Textures are layers of reality which wrap around the planet's surface, including the 'present world' bound by the laws of physics in which humans currently live and the Reverse Side of the World beneath it.[1][3][2] |
5.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Gi...so=search#Mythological_Mystic_Code_of_Genesis With this power alone, the student council estimated that Gilgamesh and Hakuno would have a 0.9999% chance of victory against BB. |
6.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Gi...so=search#Mythological_Mystic_Code_of_Genesis To summarize, it is the power of the Origin that began the human genome. It is something all human beings hold within them. By entering Gilgamesh's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic Spirit core directly, Hakuno was able to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code. This is an origin that even the person themselves, in this case, Gilgamesh, can never know. The farthest point that became the cause of the birth of the entity known as Gilgamesh. In other words, zero.[15] By removing the limiter placed on him, Gilgamesh would be able to acquire the same level of "fundamental truth" as BB due to now being able to raise his spiritual rank according to his will. |
7.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Amaterasu?so=search In Fate/EXTRA and CCC, Arcueid Brunestud (Berserker) with her sanity restored is stated to be about the only one who is capable of bringing Golden White Face down to a level where "it’s possible to defeat her no matter how slim the possibility", thanks to being able to reduce the power of her opponents to a sixth of their usual. This confirms that Amaterasu's power reigns supreme, and that not even Buddha, Kiara Sessyoin, BB or Hakuno's Servants (Nero Claudius, No Name, Tamamo-no-Mae or Gilgamesh depending on the player's preferences) empowered by the Mythological Mystic Code would be able to face her.[7][9] She appears as a large, nine-tailed being similar to Tamamo, but those entering the mausoleum while not in a dream would only see a huge sun.[3][4] . . . This is only natural, as the foundation of her being comes from an offering to the sun. Thus, the scale of her existence is equivalent to it. . . . Most god's Divinity comes from Earth, but the Sun belongs to the universe. In terms of raw force, Tamamo-no-Mae states that She could be on par with Velber.[12] |
8.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Moon_Cell?so=search The Serial Phantasm, abbreviated SE.RA.PH, also known as The Photonic Abyss and Angelica Cage, is an artificial environment within the Moon Cell located inside of a spiritual computer system called Automaton (オートマトン?). The system is similar to Akasha in the terms of holding the "stores and archives" of all human history. |
9.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Moon_Cell?so=search The Moon Cell (ムーンセル, Mūn Seru?), also called the Holy Grail, Eye of God, and Divine Automatic Recording Device, is a massive collection of photonic crystals within the Moon that comprises a giant supercomputer of sorts. It acts as the main setting of Fate/EX. The core of the Moon Cell is a much larger photonic crystal, about 3000 kilometers in length and using light as its storage medium, as well as all of its high-level data control systems to transmit data and system commands. It has recorded everything that has happened on the planet since its formation, and it keeps the records much like Swirl of the Root. . . . It scans the entire Earth about once per nanosecond and compiles the results of its scan in its database. It is a pseudo-intelligent being that has the supreme ability to affect the outside world with its internal calculations. As an eye that observes the Earth, it acts as a database of human history that faithfully simulates all life on Earth and is capable of providing a definite prediction of the future. It is a processor with a massive memory that has recorded the habits, history, ideas, and even the souls of humanity. |
10.
| Source: (Gilgamesh - EA) Source: (Saber - Excalibur) |
11.
| Source: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Fate/Grand_Order?so=search Arc's Moondrop: 5-B (299 Zettatons) |
12.
| Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Karna#Abilities As a Lancer, he boasts the power level of "Special" A rank,[59] and he contends for the highest place among all Servants.[3] Karna is one of the seven Top Servants summoned by the Moon Cell, and Hakuno Kishinami regards him as a strong hero even among those standards.[33][60] In fact, Karna is a high-class Heroic Spirit said to be on par with Gilgamesh,[59][61][62] and Romani Archaman states that the readings of his Saint Graph are off the charts.[3 Source: https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Brahmastra_Kundala Type:Anti-Country It is a projectile that is granted his fiery attribute, Mana Burst (Flame), which from one blow is likened to a nuclear weapon. |
13.
| N/A (There are no scans that state/imply that BB has Low 1-C Durability as far as I'm aware) |
Note: In regards to #9, the Moon Cell having "the supreme ability to affect the outside world with its internal calculations" isn't implying that the Authority it possesses over it's simulated realities extends to the outside world. Its referring to the records of history it keeps as well as it's predictive ability.
