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Yukari vs Tiamat
- Thread starter Promestein
- Start date
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You know, I realized. The isolation argument is flawed due to the fact that we don't use it for any say, teleporters or other portal creators. I mean, how simple would it be if I said Mewtwo teleports away from his opponent once he realizes he can't beat 'em.
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@JB isn't there only one?
@Real Cal
That would only apply to people who only teleport and can't attack consistently. Yukari herself could still launch attacks while hidden from view and there was discussion of her incorperality or was it intangibility anyway. That last part is off topic but it's not as if Yukari can just stay in that isolation otherwise she wouldn't be able to trigger the Spiriting Away.
Of course thinking about this battle it's not as if Tiamat is offense-heavy based anyway.
@Real Cal
That would only apply to people who only teleport and can't attack consistently. Yukari herself could still launch attacks while hidden from view and there was discussion of her incorperality or was it intangibility anyway. That last part is off topic but it's not as if Yukari can just stay in that isolation otherwise she wouldn't be able to trigger the Spiriting Away.
Of course thinking about this battle it's not as if Tiamat is offense-heavy based anyway.
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@JBennett
Lacking a Concept of Death is innate to her as a high-class Divine Spirit who embodies life itself. She did not die even when she was "murdered" by her children and after her body was ripped to shreds to form Heaven and Earth.
On the same note, even if the Concept of Death was applied to her, she would still survive for as long as there is life on Earth, since she is the origin of the concept of life and to oppose her is to oppose life itself.
Lacking a Concept of Death is innate to her as a high-class Divine Spirit who embodies life itself. She did not die even when she was "murdered" by her children and after her body was ripped to shreds to form Heaven and Earth.
On the same note, even if the Concept of Death was applied to her, she would still survive for as long as there is life on Earth, since she is the origin of the concept of life and to oppose her is to oppose life itself.
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If Tiamat lacks the concept of death then why is she a Servant? Servants are Sprits of the Dead with a legend that trancendce humanity brought back to life through the Holy Grail. Also I read the entire page for Divine Spirits and nowhere does it says that they lack the concept of death.
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@JBennett
She's an exception to the rule. As a Beast-class Servant, she is able to manifest on her lonesome as one of the Seven Great Enemies of Humanities, each embodying a sin, with Tiamat's being Regression. Her consciousness had been waiting for the right time to manifest on Earth through the distortions created by Goetia.
She's an exception to the rule. As a Beast-class Servant, she is able to manifest on her lonesome as one of the Seven Great Enemies of Humanities, each embodying a sin, with Tiamat's being Regression. Her consciousness had been waiting for the right time to manifest on Earth through the distortions created by Goetia.
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okay, however there are many other DS that are also Servants, Artemis and Brynhildr are just a couple, but thats honestly not inportant. HOwever like I said in the page it doesn't say that they lack the conpect of death just that they can't die through regular means or at least thats what it can interpertate.
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@JBennett
1) Artemis hijacked Orion's summoning and is thus using his stats.
2) Brynhildr lost her Divinity after rebelling against her father. Due to being a minor goddess in the first place, she has a paltry E-Rank.
3) In case you decide to bring it up, Ishtar and Ereshkigal nerfed themselves by becoming a Pseudo-Servant possessing Rin (and are thus not at their full Divine power and by possessing a human body, they gained that concept of death).
Tiamat is neither of these things and thus lacks her concept of death. There's a reason why Hassan was needed to apply it onto her.
1) Artemis hijacked Orion's summoning and is thus using his stats.
2) Brynhildr lost her Divinity after rebelling against her father. Due to being a minor goddess in the first place, she has a paltry E-Rank.
3) In case you decide to bring it up, Ishtar and Ereshkigal nerfed themselves by becoming a Pseudo-Servant possessing Rin (and are thus not at their full Divine power and by possessing a human body, they gained that concept of death).
Tiamat is neither of these things and thus lacks her concept of death. There's a reason why Hassan was needed to apply it onto her.
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Well I said I didn't care about the Divine Spirits Servants but thanks I guess. However like I said no where does it says that Divine Spirits lack a concept of death. being unable to die=/= lacking the concept of death.
I'll make it easier for you, show me a scan from the games or text from the official wiki page that says they lack the concept of death, If you can then I'll drop it.
I'll make it easier for you, show me a scan from the games or text from the official wiki page that says they lack the concept of death, If you can then I'll drop it.
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That's kinda hard since everything is untranslated or so I hear. Either way I discussed it with other people before and did think that the fate and lack a death concept feels like its unquantifiable. And last time I saw someone lack a concept (time for dormamu) it wasnt even as if you cant put time there.
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@JBennett
To quote the game:
"This is incredible ... He didn't merely cut away the Wing-Horns of the Goddess Tiamat; he imposed upon her "the Concept of Death" The physical scale of the Goddess Tiamat remains unchanged, but the underlying Saint Graph has conformed to the standard pattern of a Servant! She can be defeated! As of this moment, the complete annihilation of Beast II has become a possibility!"
If she already had a concept of death, then Hassan would not have had to impose it on her in order to defeat her.
To quote the game:
"This is incredible ... He didn't merely cut away the Wing-Horns of the Goddess Tiamat; he imposed upon her "the Concept of Death" The physical scale of the Goddess Tiamat remains unchanged, but the underlying Saint Graph has conformed to the standard pattern of a Servant! She can be defeated! As of this moment, the complete annihilation of Beast II has become a possibility!"
If she already had a concept of death, then Hassan would not have had to impose it on her in order to defeat her.
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Precisely, being unable to die=/=lacking the concept of death.
Even her Reliant Immortatliy is actually questioned, on her offical wiki page its says that Paradox Restoration, that is being unable to die as long as other life still exists is actually just a hypothosis that is not completly proven since the underworld natrually exerts a Anti-Divinity effect since its desing to contain rouge gods so she might be capable of dying while others life still exsits. Of course I'm not saying she doesn't have it I'm just mentioning it so I'm not going to care if she stil has it in the end.
Even her Reliant Immortatliy is actually questioned, on her offical wiki page its says that Paradox Restoration, that is being unable to die as long as other life still exists is actually just a hypothosis that is not completly proven since the underworld natrually exerts a Anti-Divinity effect since its desing to contain rouge gods so she might be capable of dying while others life still exsits. Of course I'm not saying she doesn't have it I'm just mentioning it so I'm not going to care if she stil has it in the end.
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@JBennett
You seem to unable to grasp the concept that if one needed to impose the concept of death on the being, they probably lacked it in the first place.
The fact that Gilgamesh, who can see all possible futures, planned to drop her into the Underworld to eliminate that advantage probably says something about its validity. Even if it's only "hypothetical", it's more likely than not to be true.
Then there's the fact that she didn't die when she was killed in the original myth (as in, torn to bloody ribbons to make Heaven and Earth) with her consciousness residing in the realm of imaginary numbers until she was to return.
You seem to unable to grasp the concept that if one needed to impose the concept of death on the being, they probably lacked it in the first place.
The fact that Gilgamesh, who can see all possible futures, planned to drop her into the Underworld to eliminate that advantage probably says something about its validity. Even if it's only "hypothetical", it's more likely than not to be true.
Then there's the fact that she didn't die when she was killed in the original myth (as in, torn to bloody ribbons to make Heaven and Earth) with her consciousness residing in the realm of imaginary numbers until she was to return.
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@JBennett
I already handed you proof (the fact that Hassan needed to be present to impose said concept on her, implying that she lacked it in the first place) but you seem intent on interpreting it to fit your viewpoint.
Characters at that level in the Nasuverse tend to lack the concept of death. Arcueid Brunestud lacks it at her full power as Archetype: Earth, so do the other Ultimate Ones, including ORT lack the concept of death. As a Divine Spirit of her power, Tiamat should be within the same power range, particularly because she embodies life itself.
I already handed you proof (the fact that Hassan needed to be present to impose said concept on her, implying that she lacked it in the first place) but you seem intent on interpreting it to fit your viewpoint.
Characters at that level in the Nasuverse tend to lack the concept of death. Arcueid Brunestud lacks it at her full power as Archetype: Earth, so do the other Ultimate Ones, including ORT lack the concept of death. As a Divine Spirit of her power, Tiamat should be within the same power range, particularly because she embodies life itself.
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I think what he wants is a screenshot of said text too
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@Core
At the bottom of this page under, "Fate/Grand Order, 7th Singularity, Chapter 21 - Prelude to the Final Stand", is a full transcript of the events I described in English AND Japanese.
If this isn't enough proof, then I don't know what is.
At the bottom of this page under, "Fate/Grand Order, 7th Singularity, Chapter 21 - Prelude to the Final Stand", is a full transcript of the events I described in English AND Japanese.
If this isn't enough proof, then I don't know what is.
ShinyMagicalGirl
She/Her- 1,183
- 218
Welp, looks like NLF-powered Girl (At least based from what I hear from others) has an inconclusive match. Looking at all the arguments, I have to say that this is inconclusive as well. I really doubt Tiamat can kill Yukari, or vise versa. I guess no even Boundary Manipulation is enough?
Should this fight go under inconclusive? How many votes are there now?
Should this fight go under inconclusive? How many votes are there now?
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