Your Waifus Do Not Exist: Touhou Main Cast NEP + High-Godly

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Malomtek]

I've been over this. The specific term used to refer to existence/non-existence in the scans provided are referring to one's literal existence.

Firstly, both kanjis have connotations of "being present somewhere", so the "differences" or "distinctions" you seem to think exist between them are entirely academic (not even semantical) ones. They're entirely synonymous terms. The specific kanji being used doesn't prove that 2hus are literally physically nonexistent in any way, or disprove the notion that they are merely "fantastical" and "unreal" relative to the real world (and indeed can easily be incorporated into the latter, such as "existential state of being fantastical").

Secondly, Gensokyo being "nonexistent" has always been particular to the realm being a land of fantasy, containing fantasy creatures otherwise considered "imaginary" to the "regular world". They are "nonexistent" entirely in that particular sense (the "existential state of being fantastical"), and nothing whatsoever contradicts this.

Furthermore, Miko's reaction to becoming non-existent would make literally 0 ******* sense if it were a matter of relativity to the outside world. "Hm yes let me react to the same bit of information in two different ways, this is perfectly logical". Not to mention the repeated affirmation of entities within Gensokyo lacking fundamental traits of their existence regardless of any sort of existence or non-existence.

It's simply Miko misunderstanding what Kanako was saying at first, prompting Kanako to explain further that Gensokyo is a land of fantasy. If the people of Gensokyo "lack" anything, it's because they're "fantastical" and not "real" creatures.

And what "fundamental traits of existence" to these Gensokyo denizens "lack" anyway? They generally have minds, bodies, souls/spirits, the ideas of them still exist (even if considered "unreal" by the wider space around them). Really, the only apparent difference between a Gensokyo denizen and a regular person of the "outside world" is that the Gensokyoans are considered "imaginary" in relation to it. Gensokyoans are not essentially wisps floating in some ethereal realm, as this image might suggest.

For someone who's argued that reality and dreams (equally "nonexistent" in relation to the "real world") are essentially one and the same in 2huland, this is seriously ironic.

You're seemingly conflating existence with power or dimensionality which is just... No. A non-existent character can be just as strong (or weak) as a character who exists; It has no bearing on tiering, and only affects who can interact with them. The whole 'zero actual power' bit is just totally wrong.

I'm not. I'm simply making the point that if you insist on the 2hus being simply literally inexistent instead of merely fantastical, the only interpretation from that, given the quotes and scans involved ("illusory beings that don't exist" etc), is that they're inexistent in a very "non-combat applicable" sense.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Firstly, both kanjis have connotations of "being present somewhere", so the "differences" or "distinctions" you seem to think exist between them are entirely academic (not even semantical) ones. They're entirely synonymous terms. The specific kanji being used doesn't prove that 2hus are literally physically nonexistent in any way, or disprove the notion that they are merely "fantastical" and "unreal" relative to the real world (and indeed can easily be incorporated into the latter, such as "existential state of being fantastical").

Here's the problem. What you said would be true if we were talking about nouns. But read these lines from some of the scans:

"the vampire and maid are the illusionary beings that do not exist"

"you've also ceased to exist"

"I've ceased to exist?"

You can probably tell that, in these sentences, 'exist' is being used as a verb and not a noun. With the definitions that you provided, the usage of 存在 as a verb can only be referring to literal existence, and not presence. So yes, the kanji used are solid evidence of these statements referring to true non-existence.

Secondly, Gensokyo being "nonexistent" has always been particular to the realm being a land of fantasy, containing fantasy creatures otherwise considered "imaginary" to the "regular world". They are "nonexistent" entirely in that particular sense (the "existential state of being fantastical"), and nothing whatsoever contradicts this.

Just as nothing contradicts literal non-existence either. I never said that the fantasy/reality difference was wrong, and just affirming that it's a land of fantasy does nothing to disprove NEP.

It's simply Miko misunderstanding what Kanako was saying at first, prompting Kanako to explain further that Gensokyo is a land of fantasy. If the people of Gensokyo "lack" anything, it's because they're "fantastical" and not "real" creatures.

1. Where are you getting the notion that Miko misunderstood anything? Hell, when Miko compares herself to a god that has been forgotten (which as we know, is a state of non-existence), Kanako actually confirms that she is correct, so Miko's assumption regarding her existence is 100% not a misunderstanding. This also further affirms the notion that the non-existence statements are not referring to relativity between Gensokyo and the outside world, because we have clear confirmation that the nature of one's very existence changes upon entering Gensokyo. 2. Your second point proves literally nothing. It can coexist with the non-existence statement and neither proves nor disproves anything.

And what "fundamental traits of existence" to these Gensokyo denizens "lack" anyway? They generally have minds, bodies, souls/spirits, the ideas of them still exist (even if considered "unreal" by the wider space around them). Really, the only apparent difference between a Gensokyo denizen and a regular person of the "outside world" is that the Gensokyoans are considered "imaginary" in relation to it. Gensokyoans are not essentially wisps floating in some ethereal realm, as this image might suggest.

So based on your previous post, you seem to agree that truth, or more specifically the manipulation of it, is type 2 information. That is considered one of the fundamental aspects of one's existence, as noted on the NEP page. And we know that Gensokyo lacks truth because Rinnosuke outright says it does, and Sagume was unable to manipulate any pre-existing truths within Gensokyo during ULiL/LoLK, and specifically needed to create them from a state of non-existence. We also know that it is extremely difficult to create truth within Gensokyo, as even potent reality warpers such as Yukari or Sagume cannot do it through their own power. So Gensokyo, due to lacking truth, lacks type 2 information, which even with a more conservative approach, would give immunity to information manip for corporeal characters and NEP for incorporeal characters.

Also, I never suggested that anyone is a 'wisp floating in some ethereal realm', that's not really what NEP inherently implies and it kinda feels like you're just pulling out random buzzwords tangentially related to the topic at hand.

I'm not. I'm simply making the point that if you insist on the 2hus being simply literally inexistent instead of merely fantastical, the only interpretation from that, given the quotes and scans involved ("illusory beings that don't exist" etc), is that they're inexistent in a very "non-combat applicable" sense.

What even is the difference between combat applicable NEP and combat non-applicable NEP? It's literally a passive state of being, it's a factor is every goddamn fight.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Also wanna point out how the 'Gensokyo is only non-existent from the perspective of the outside world' argument makes 0 sense when Gensokyo's own denizens consider themselves to be non-existent.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[PrinceofPein]

Once 24hrs

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

For someone who's argued that reality and dreams (equally "nonexistent" in relation to the "real world") are essentially one and the same in 2huland, this is seriously ironic.

Ah, I never responded to this. First and foremost, the dream stuff is a massive ******* derail, but I will humor you with exactly one (1) response. Don't expect me to carry this argument any further than this post.

When I say 'dreams equal reality', it is in reference to how they are perfect replications of well, reality; Not reality in the sense of 'real' things distinct from unreal or non-existent things, but rather reality in the sense of 'the broader cosmology of this verse'. Two examples of this being the case are WaHH stating that 'dreams are just another reality', which wouldn't make sense in the context of a supposed real/unreal dichotomy, and Doremy's omake.txt stating that one can go anywhere they wish within dreams, a concept we see put into practice across multiple games and manga which show various cosmological locations recreated within dreams. To repeat myself again, dreams equal reality in a cosmological sense, which means that it recreates both the existent and non-existent portions of the cosmology as well. Of course, your interpretation would insinuate that reality as a whole in Touhou isn't actually reality due to the existence of non-existent locations, which is of course, absurd.

TL;DR: Yes, dreams still equal reality, it's just a different definition of reality than what you think it is.

Please for the love of god don't take this as an invitation to start debating 2-B dreams or whatever. Save that clusterfuck for like 5 months from now when I actually post that upgrade, and for now, let's keep things on topic.

 

[Malomtek]

Why does the kanji being used as a verb prove anything in particular? "Be present" is also a verb (although it's technically two words), but I don't use that as the basis of any argument of mine.

"But it doesn't disprove NEP either" is a rather question-begging argument, when the supposed "NEP" itself is in contention.

Why are you conflating "falsity" or whatever with literal nonexistence, by the way? It's pretty clear that they are not the same thing in 2huland. The way you describe Gensokyo and Gensokyoans, they can't be anything but "wisps floating in some ethereal realm", since they apparently don't physically exist, while retaining paradoxically nonexistent minds, souls, concepts, and "other", residing in some physically nonexistent realm.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Why does the kanji being used as a verb prove anything in particular? "Be present" is also a verb (although it's technically two words), but I don't use that as the basis of any argument of mine.

Because there is no verb-related usage of those kanji that can be translated as 'be present'. It doesn't exist. You can't say that those translations say 'be present' because there is no translation of the original text that can possibly be conveyed that way. It just isn't an option, period.

"But it doesn't disprove NEP either" is a rather question-begging argument, when the supposed "NEP" itself is in contention.

If you wanna disprove NEP you gotta, y'know, actually explain why it's wrong. Most of what you said up above is true, it just. doesn't affect anything? It doesn't help my argument, sure, but it isn't exactly hurting it either.

Why are you conflating "falsity" or whatever with literal nonexistence, by the way? It's pretty clear that they are not the same thing in 2huland. The way you describe Gensokyo and Gensokyoans, they can't be anything but "wisps floating in some ethereal realm", since they apparently don't physically exist, while retaining paradoxically nonexistent minds, souls, concepts, and "other", residing in some physically nonexistent realm.

Because we know that the true/false dichotomy within Touhou does correlate with existence and non-existence. Take Sagume for example; Her ability is to take something that is false and make it true. When she does this, it is described as taking something that is non-existent (in this case, urban legends) and making it exist. So when something exists in a state of falsehood, it is described as non-existent, and only begins to exist once it is confirmed as 'true'. And real quick, the specific application of her abilities in AFiEU and ULiL are the same, as confirmed by Aya post-AFiEU.

The second part of your argument is.... I mean, yeah, that's how NEP works? I mean, the page just outright states the power is a paradox by its very nature, it's literally the opening line lmao. I'm not even 100% sure what you're trying to say, is your point that, because Gensokyo denizens have souls, minds, and concepts, they can't have NEP? Because that's not really how NEP works. You don't have to be all non-existent all at once, just lack one of a few select components and be incorporeal. And, well, Touhou characters fit that description.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

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[PrinceofPein]

Once every 24hrs is enough
It has not even been 12hrs

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Can you stop? Feels like you're just following these threads to butt in where it isn't needed.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can you stop? Feels like you're just following these threads to butt in where it isn't needed.

I’m following these threads cause I am allowed to and I feel like.
And yes you are only required to bump after 24hrs of inactivity.
You think the reason why I’m following the thread is to tell you when you bump inappropriately??
You are so toxic, you don’t even like any form of correction

 

[Vietthai96]

actually, there is no rule about bumping. Still, bumping after 12 hours of inactivity is necessary, because bumping too fast create many "unneccessary comments" in form of bump

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

"You can only bump after 24 hours"

False. You dont need to wait that much. 12 is already enough. Sometimes 6 doesnt hurt either if the thread is quite dead.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

"Toxic". Oh **** off with that. I'm not the one chastising people over the most inconsequential shit on the planet. People seeing my posts every 8-12 hours instead of every 24 hours isn't the end of the world.

EDIT: Seems I was beaten to the punch without realizing it :v

 

[PrinceofPein]

"Toxic". Oh **** off with that. I'm not the one chastising people over the most inconsequential shit on the planet. People seeing my posts every 8-12 hours instead of every 24 hours isn't the end of the world.

EDIT: Seems I was beaten to the punch without realizing it :v

Yes “Toxic” that’s the word, if you need a definition, I will give you one. Getting triggered by someone telling you “you only need bump after 24hrs of inactivity” shows that perfectly.
Clearly you can tell my intentions was not to attack you

actually, there is no rule about bumping. Still, bumping after 12 hours of inactivity is necessary, because bumping too fast create many "unneccessary comments" in form of bump

"You can only bump after 24 hours"

False. You dont need to wait that much. 12 is already enough. Sometimes 6 doesnt hurt either if the thread is quite dead.

You should probably call a mod and ask again, bumping is only necessary within 24hrs of inactivity

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mild inconvenience is now enough to be considered 'triggered', it seems. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but no, this is the internet after all. Anyways, nobody really cares that much about bump timing so long as it isn't borderline spam. I bump my threads when it's been a decent amount of time or they're being overtaken by other threads. That's all there is to it.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

bumping is only necessary within 24hrs of inactivity

Can you show me where that is written in the rules, then?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Can you show me where that is written in the rules, then?

Not a written rule but I’ve had Damage and some staff say that on more than one occasion

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

If it's not a rule, then you shouldn't act like it is one. Do you see anyone else complaining about 8-hour bumps on this thread? It's harmless.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I was not complaining per say, just mentioning it.

 

[ÆONS]

Not a written rule but I’ve had Damage and some staff say that on more than one occasion

"Damage and some staff" do not represent the mods of VS Battles; there is no consensus on the matter. If it isn't a rule then you have little ground to stand on. Mokou's actions are completely harmless and there's no need to act like they are violating rules that do not actually exist.

 

[PrinceofPein]

"Damage and some staff" do not represent the mods of VS Battles; there is no consensus on the matter. If it isn't a rule then you have little ground to stand on. Mokou's actions are completely harmless and there's no need to act like they are violating rules that do not actually exist.

K.

 

[Urshani]

no

 

[Shmooply]

tfw people care more about the standards for bumps instead of the actual thread

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well I take my time to conclude this but it's finally here.

So what's is the whole problem with giving NEP to basically all the cast?

First Issue: "Non-Existence" Taken so Much Literal​

Mokou's premise comes from the idea that the characters are treated like nonexistent beings, as when they are forgotten in the Outside World they outright enter into Gensokyo, thus, they cease to exist.

The issue however is that this is a clear case of taking things so much literal, as the whole context of losing their existence is under the point of view of the Outside World. Obviously, since this is a place where logic and science has reached its peak, and all the mysticism lost its previous power. That's why they become "nonexistent" beings, because they are more related to the fantasy and general speculation.

And that's why Youkai in general are treated like nonexistent beings, not because they are literally that, or just pure nothingness, as Mokou is trying to imply.

Take for example this scan (which was also cut by Mokou in her last summary ). Miko is talking about how Youkai are born from human imagination, and then Byakuren says that, due to this, their "nonexistence" is obvious. I think everyone here has enough reading comprehension to understand that, in this context, this isn't providing NEP of any type, but instead, it just talk about how Youkai are mostly abstract entities born from imagination and human thoughts, hence why they are "nonexistent" in this context.

Mokou can counterattack by saying that Gensokyo as a whole works like an illusion or that the beings there are illusionary beings, but again, this isn't to be taken literal, as they are illusionary in the sense of Gensokyo being the "reverse" place of the Outside World, where everything that cannot stay in can enter there.

Now other thing that I want to talk about is how she is taken comparisons to much literal, because yes, Miko compares her actual state as a godlike one, but this cannot be something 100% literal, as if that's the case, then she must have the same properties of lacking concepts like the gods themselves, which obviously isn't the case. If she states that, it's because, yes, she was indeed erased from the Outside World, however, thanks to the boundary of reality and fantasy created by Yukari, she can restore her previous self but in Gensokyo. So yeah, as usual, she "ceased" to exist in the Outside World, yet, thanks to Yukari's ability, was able to retake her existence but in Gensokyo.

Take note that I'm not against characters being banished from the Outside World. My issue is that this isn't providing them actual NEP, because what they are doing after entering in Gensokyo is retaking their previous existence before becoming "illusions."

Second Issue: Things that Clearly Still Exist in Gensokyo​

I will separate this section between two sub-sections, because there's a lot to talk about.

1) Physical and Metaphysical Existences​

As stated, there are three layers in Gensokyo, but the ones that matters for us is the first and second one.

First is the physical layer that moves in accordance with the laws of physics, including all living things, objects, etc. It is on this layer that an object falls towards the ground, and that the water of the river flows.

The second layer is one that moves with the spirit, which includes things such as magic and sorcery, the mental layer. One's mood turning sour when meeting an unpleasant person, and releasing all your stress and cares during a party lie here.

^ As you see above, there are clear distinctions between what is physical and what is non-physical. If Gensokyo was literally a non-physical realm, then the existence of these layers shouldn't make sense.

Mokou's argument against this is that physical doesn't mean literally physical, and that incorporeal beings exist in the first layer.

To answer this, I will going to quote myself from the counterargument that I didn't published yet:

What the-
No. They aren't actually in the physical layer. They are actually in the mental layer, which is, by definition, the one allowing for them to exist. Literally, this whole point it's just posting proves for incorporeality and saying "well this are incorporeal characters yet they exist in the first layer because yes" without even properly proving why. And yes, things can exist between layers, because they can have a physical vessel while their true core is within the other one. If not, then we must make massive downgrades to every Youkai, because:

Range: At least Tens of Meters with Danmaku (Her firing range should be comparable to Sakuya's, who can throw knives at least 36 meters), Kilometers with weather magic (Covered the area surrounding the Scarlet Devil Mansion in heavy rain), Universal with her "mind" (A youkai's mind exists beyond the physical layer, which should include the universe)

But obviously I'm against that method, because it doesn't make sense, and most importantly, because the one who needs to prove something isn't me, it's you. Magic for example can be visualized in the physical layer, but we know it's actually within the second one.
In regards of your point about "ghosts do coexist within the mental layer needs proofs" it's the equivalent of saying "well this spirit isn't stated to be within the non-physical plane so you need to prove that." If you can't see the issue with this, then idk why I'm still arguing.
But let's see. The mental layer it's literally stated to be the plane in which every metaphysical event is able to occur, reason to why the spirit, the mind, and magic, are able to be created in the world:

The second layer is one that moves with the spirit, which includes things such as magic and sorcery, the mental layer. One's mood turning sour when meeting an unpleasant person, and releasing all your stress and cares during a party lie here.

Using mere logic, and Occam's Razor, we can easily understand that every incorporeal event and character, by definition, it's directly within this layer. If X character becomes non-corporeal, then congratulations, he gained a free pass for the mental layer. The reason why someone can be "saw" within another layer, it's because these aren't really planes of existence per se, but instead, just ways to separate world, yet, they are in the same place. I don't know why are you making so much trouble with this, if it's something pretty simple.

Oh yeah, she also uses Yuuma to try to debunk me by saying that animal spirits can still interact with the characters, while they are stated to be unable to interact with physical/soulless beings (basically another point to try prove some sort of incorporeality for everyone), to which I respond with this:

Your example with Yuuma fails at the moment we are talking about the matriarch of the Toutetsu family. Same goes with Saki and Yachie. They can do this because they are the most powerful spirits, and also they can create their own physical bodies as we see. Plus, your own scan proves me right, again (this one), because not only it reaffirms how physical bodies are still existing, but also, because it literally says how they can only do spiritual damage. It also explains why Yuuma can still harm the characters, because they still have souls, unlike with the Haniwa Legion.

Summarizing, she needs to:

Prove physical layer isn't meant to be the physical layer
Prove ghost and any other noncorporeal entity exist within the physical layer instead of the mental layer
Prove that this is false:

Actually, speaking of which...

You're not a human spirit from the Animal Realm!
You're a flesh-and-blood human!

How did you manage to survive in
such a dog-eat-dog place as this?

Prove that flesh and blood are somehow incorporeal in the verse

Lastly I want to talk about this:

Also, ghosts in Touhou have blood, so incorporeal entities inexplicably having corporeal characteristics is not exactly new. Don’t ask me how that’s supposed to work.

That could be a good argument if only it wasn't saying "lifeblood" instead of flesh-and-blood. It's pretty clear in that scan alone how this is a totally different type of energy in comparison to general blood, because if it wasn't. then there's no need to separate it from the general blood.

2) Truth Doesn't Existing Only in this Thread​

Now she says that truth as a concept doesn't exist in Gensokyo, as Rinnosuke states this is the ultimate illusion that even doesn't exist here.

Most truths are not only built on uncertain bases, they are also fleeting and fragile. Truth is, in fact, easily changed by information. If one is to create information, then one must keep in mind that this information will change reality. There’s no such thing as information that conveys only but the truth. Truth itself is the ultimate illusion, an illusion that doesn’t exist even in Gensokyo.

^ The statement.

First of all, I want to re-establish that truth and history are correlated.

-"Lack" of truth explains why history doesn't exist in Gensokyo in first place:

“I was thinking of writing about everyday happenings.”

“Like a journal? But what would it be useful for?”

“Because the authenticity of these newspapers is somewhat questionable. So I was thinking of writing the facts as close as possible to the truth.”

“That‘s still not truth.”

“When you write down a truth, it is not truth anymore. That’s why it’s impossible to write down the truth. Don’t you know why there isn’t any historical history in Gensokyo?”

“Because every day is peaceful? The things that remain as history are things that were good for a few people and bad for a lot. And even if we have an incident, it’s quickly solved.”

“That’s not all to it. There’s a simpler reason for the lack of history… !!”

And that should be enough, because the other things will be provided for the whole argument.

So why it's important to say that history = truth/information?

And that's because:

But according to Reimu, there is a third layer that rejects loops. The third layer is the layer of memory, which is the recollection of events that lies within all things. Since it's only possible to add to the memory layer, it's impossible to completely recreate the past. If something were to happen that already occurred in the past, then there would be a contradiction because that would imply that memory was lost, which is impossible. The memory layer always continues to build up.

The physical layer follows the laws of physics, the mental layer explains the outcomes and the memory layer alters probability, mutually creating the future. Reimu said that excepting the cases when something has already happened in the past, it is impossible to predict the future.

There is the third layer that is directly correlated to history and causality as a whole. This is yet another solid proof about how things that supposedly doesn't exist in Gensokyo are still there, just in different "states." Anyway, now let's explain the main scan for all of this.

There's actually a real reason about why Rinnosuke states that truth doesn't exist in Gensokyo, and is the following:

That is because a youkai’s life span is too long. Even if an event were to become history, as long as the involved party is still alive and can go changing the information at their will, the real truth cannot be determined, not upon this uncertain foundation. Truth is a tower built upon the sands of information. If a truth of uncertain authenticity is built, it will crumble in the wind. No matter how many “towers of truth” are erected, they can all melt under the rain. Objectiveness is the most important thing in history, but if the concerned party is still around, it cannot quite separate from its interests. And that’s why there’s no history in Gensokyo.

Truth itself is something that can be easily changed and manipulated through various ways, and in fact, this is something the Youkai can do (not directly, obviously, but via their actions and potential censorship of many events). Thus, that's why "true" truth cannot exist, because as Rinnosuke states, the involved party is still there, being able to do any change to the information in Gensokyo as they please.
(I want to remark again that I'm not saying Youkai can literally manipulate truth and the third layer [with a few exceptions, obviously, like Remilia, Keine, Aya, or even Nue]. There are many ways history and truth can be changed, like, as I said above, censorship or misinformation, so don't take my argument like I'm implying some sort of causality manip for everyone)

Another instance in which we can see how truth/information is still existing in Gensokyo is with Chimata herself, whose profile states the following:

For humans, letting go of things is difficult.
Even if you give it to someone, the information that it was a gift from you will remain.
Even if you throw it in the trash, or illegally dump it on a mountain, the information that someone left it there will remain.
Relinquishing ownership is no easy feat.

However, there exists a place where that act can be perfectly carried out.
The one place where people can exchange objects: the market.
By selling something at a market, you can completely give up possession of it.


She's a god who governs that act.

These days, the buying and selling of things has come to occur without a market's involvement much more often, and as a result, there is an utter glut of ownership rights. She lamented this fact.

Information can still exist among objects, that works even with those that are from Gensokyo itself (reason why a market can be created there). And by manipulating the information of the objects allows her the creation of Cards' Abilities, so this information has clearly the same supernatural properties of the original one:

In that first market, they bought and sold cards with their own abilities sealed inside.
Beneath the lunar rainbow, the four of them exchanged cards back and forth.
Just as they'd planned, the replica abilities sealed in the cards completely detached
from their original owners, and became part of their new owners' abilities.
Both Iizunamaru and Momoyo were greatly excited by this result.

Many more markets were held after that, and the cards spread far and wide out from the mountain.
In order to use the cards' abilities, they had to be purchased according to the rules.
Stealing, discarding, picking up or receiving them wouldn't work.

Those were the rules put in place so that Chimata, the market god, could obtain power.
Iizunamaru thought of the markets as pure business, but for Chimata, they were a ritual of worship for her to regain her divine strength.

This is even crucial because Chimata via this ability was regaining her godly strength, so this reaffirms how the information in the objects are actually the same as the truth itself.

Now, Mokou's counterargument for this is that these truths aren't really truths somehow, but just instead type 1 info manip, while the """main truth""" that she states doesn't exist in Gensokyo is type 2. I will mince this idea to highlight all the errors:

1) Eiki shutting up Aya when she claims she can change the world with her newspaper isn't an evidence that she can't do so. In fact, she can do this, and Eiki herself says so ("Close, but no cigar. 30 points"). The thing however is that Aya can do this via Bunbunmaru News, not by her power alone. So it's clear that she "can't" control information with literally everything she talks about, but only with her newspaper.
2) She uses this to claim that Sagume needs to create truth in order to affect Gensokyo, thus truth originally doesn't exist there. This is clearly a false equivalence fallacy ("Sagume creates Occult Balls to indirectly create truth in Gensokyo, therefore truth originally doesn't exist there") and not what the statement means. While yes, she uses this to cause an indirect effect into Gensokyo, this doesn't implicitly correlates with the idea of Gensokyo lacking of truth at all, specially knowing that Lunarians usually doesn't "attack" in a common sense, but just make any sort of tricks and conspiracies to achieve what they want. So the creation of Occult Balls isn't a true proof to assume anything of this.
3) Following with this, she says this is yet another proof about truth doesn't existing in Gensokyo, hence why Sagume needs to create a new one from nothingness. But this is a misinterpretation, because what Sagume is doing via Aya isn't creating new truth at all, at least not in the way Mokou treats it. What Aya assumes it's happening, is that the Lunarians are creating convenient truth to benefit them, and that's all. There's no recreation of truth from nothingness, or anything like that. It's just Sagume changing actual truth into something else. Also, the correlation with Occult Balls doesn't has anything to do with the main notion of Gensokyo lacking truth, because urban legends are indeed non-existent, but that's because of their own nature, not because of a lacking of truth.
4) Finally, I want to remind everyone here that Zun doesn't know anything about the categories of Information Manipulation, yet, Mokou by stating "well this is type 1 truth while this one is type 2" is essentially implying that Zun is knowledgeable enough to make these separations from a time where those didn't existed at all, an assumption that clearly doesn't makes any sense, neither he has a real reason to separate this concept into two types, so this also highlights yet another issue with Mokou's argument.

Third Issue: Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc​

Lastly I want to talk about the idea of comparing the ways someone can enter into Gensokyo and via that stating everyone becomes non-corporeal after going inside.

Everything starts from this statement:

I suppose it is only natural that they'd realize I'm a foreign presence.
Like I see youkai as fluctuations,
perhaps they see me as a phantom-like being.

As Maribel says, she thinks Youkai saw her like a phantom.
Yet this doesn't really supports anything at all. What she's doing is theorizing about how people in Gensokyo see her, but that's isn't a direct statement or anything. And she doesn't even directly says she becomes a phantom or something, she just says is like a "phantom-like being," but that's all.

Now she talks about how Sumireko becomes incorporeal when entering Gensokyo, thus in everyone's case this should be the same, riiiiiiiiiight?

Not really.

First, Sumireko is a special case, because she isn't entering Gensokyo in the same way as everyone, but via their dreams. That's why she can become intangible there (which for the 1812748917481748914784 time proves how there's a difference between physical and non-physical in it), because her true self isn't there, just her dreamlike being.

Which is also ironic because in AFiEU we see this:

I had this mysterious experience a long time ago, you see. I've really liked abandoned shrines, altars, and so on ever since I was little, so I would play by myself a lot, hiding under eaves and porches and the like. I don't remember it all that clearly, but I must have fallen asleep while hiding one day. And when I woke up in a panic on hearing people shouting, I was surrounded by policemen and lots of other people, all asking if I was okay... My parents got really upset with me, too. Apparently, three whole days had passed while I was asleep! There was even an article about it in my town's local newspaper.

She obviously got spirited away.[1] (*Note: this interview was conducted at the Hakurei Shrine. Ms. Reimu Hakurei happened to be there as well, and was listening to the conversation.)

When someone young is alone in a sacred site or other such location, sometimes they end up wandering into Gensokyo. The outside world calls it "being spirited away". I mean like, come on, there's no way you don't know that.

When she is spirited away, which is basically being BFR'd into Gensokyo, she is teleported with all her body, proving how when entering like this way into it you don't lose your physical self. But, since now Sumireko enters in Gensokyo at dreaming, this rule doesn't apply.

There are more instances of this, like for example all the people BFR'd by Yukari and their skeletons and skulls which are still in Gensokyo, but I think this should be enough.

Finally, I want to point out how everything of this is basically another fallacy (the title of this section) on the same level of "my partners come to job through the subway, so every worker comes to job through the subway," but with more fancy words and wankaphysics to make it sound better.

And well, this is my last take on the topic. Sorry for taking so much time to finish it, buuuut... well I can't lie, I took advantage of how 2hu threads are easily forgotten to procrastinate jijijija

Last thing I will say is that Hatate and Aya should have Information Manipulation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh ****

I willll respond to this later. Right off the bat I can see a few things that are totally wrong.

Can we at least just apply high-godly and get that part over with?

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

It's necessary to respond one more time? Because our last comments are just basically summaries of our points so staff can analyze it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean if you're really still claiming that Aya and Hatate have information manipulation, then yeah.

Even without typing out a whole paragraph, it's easy to explain how totally wrong that is. At no point do we see either of their papers alter reality by itself. In fact, if they could do that, Sagume wouldn't even need to use her ability during ULiL/AFiEU; She could just let those rumors spread unchecked, and if Bunbunmaru was truly capable of altering reality, then those things would become real by themselves. The fact that it needs outside help from a reality warper to have any tangible effect on reality is strong indication that it just doesn't do what you claim it does.

 

[ÆONS]

I have read Hecatia's response. I'll spend more time thinking about it.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I mean if you're really still claiming that Aya and Hatate have information manipulation, then yeah.

Then just wait the staff to analyze first all the discussion regarding NEP, then we can proceed with the stuff about Aya and Hatate having info manip. Isn't necessary to continue with something that supposedly is a final summary for the topic just for that. So be patient.

Even without typing out a whole paragraph, it's easy to explain how totally wrong that is. At no point do we see either of their papers alter reality by itself. In fact, if they could do that, Sagume wouldn't even need to use her ability during ULiL/AFiEU; She could just let those rumors spread unchecked, and if Bunbunmaru was truly capable of altering reality, then those things would become real by themselves. The fact that it needs outside help from a reality warper to have any tangible effect on reality is strong indication that it just doesn't do what you claim it does.

Uhm no we have literally a whole metaphysical explanation about how information and truth in general works in-verse. Sagume only needs she so she can impose her own truth within Gensokyo, that doesn't really debunks or contradicts anything actually.