Your Waifus Do Not Exist: Touhou Main Cast NEP + High-Godly

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well all of that stuff was just Mokou making yet more headcannons with no real meaning, so I will not bother to answer it (and for my own good too, because now I need to wash my eyes after reading the whole truth argument).

However, I must point out how lame was that comparison between the Dream World and the mental layer. That being said, "mental world" isn't the direct equivalent of "mental layer" in a raw sense, and still doesn't proves how that's somehow a different plane of reality or anything. Remember, the layers are just how the worlds are composed, not the other way around. So it's practically easy to understand that, as Gensokyo has it's own, the Dream World has those too. So, yes, the mental part of the Dream World lies within it's own mental layer, and the real foundation of the plane lies within it's own physical layer.

So the last thing I have to say about the topic, is that Saber Alter has more consistent reasons to be treated as nonexistent, which is sad .

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well all of that stuff was just Mokou making yet more headcannons with no real meaning, so I will not bother to answer it (and for my own good too, because now I need to wash my eyes after reading the whole truth argument).

Oh you've gotta be ******* kidding me. Yeah because clearly Aya and Hatate warping one of the fundamental layers of existence and thus altering the very nature of reality on a conceptual level every time they print a ******* newspaper is more reasonable then saying they can't do that because there's no evidence of them doing that. Just admit you have no evidence lmao

However, I must point out how lame was that comparison between the Dream World and the mental layer. That being said, "mental world" isn't the direct equivalent of "mental layer" in a raw sense, and still doesn't proves how that's somehow a different plane of reality or anything. Remember, the layers are just how the worlds are composed, not the other way around. So it's practically easy to understand that, as Gensokyo has it's own, the Dream World has those too. So, yes, the mental part of the Dream World lies within it's own mental layer, and the real foundation of the plane lies within it's own physical layer.

Nah, the Dream World and the mental layer both fit the same role within the cosmology. While there is the mental world/mental layer comparison, it is important to note that both are essentially the collective unconscious of humanity, particularly in regards to emotions. The mental layer's role as a sort of collective unconscious is obvious based on its description and relation to the emotions of all living things, and for the Dream World, it has the same sort of relation to emotions and the subconscious. So you'd either have to admit they're the same, or argue that they're two different things that just so happen to fulfill identical functions within the cosmology, the latter of which is not a reasonable assumption at all. Basically, if it sounds like the mental layer, and acts like the mental layer, it's the ******* mental layer. Also, remind me again where the evidence for every world having its own set of 'layers' comes from? Because Mamizou implies that fate, which as we know is defined by the memory layer, exists 'beyond the veil of our world', so that layer literally cannot exist inside Gensokyo. Otherwise that'd mean the memory layer exists inside Gensokyo but also doesn't, which makes 0 ******* sense.

 

[ÆONS]

I'll look at this later, but I feel that this CRT is going nowhere because of staff not being involved very much.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Seems like it. I will give this... one month, and if no staff give their thoughts by then, I'll just ask for this to be closed until more revisions finish up. Don't wanna have a dead CRT permanently eating up other people's chances to post their own threads.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Oh you've gotta be ******* kidding me. Yeah because clearly Aya and Hatate warping one of the fundamental layers of existence and thus altering the very nature of reality on a conceptual level every time they print a ******* newspaper is more reasonable then saying they can't do that because there's no evidence of them doing that. Just admit you have no evidence lmao

Well, sorry for saying this but, looking over the discussion, seems like most people reading this was agreeing with me the whole time, which should mean I'm making more sense actually. At this point honestly, seems like you are making a scream out of despair, because potentially this would be rejected (actually was rejected by a staff member), so maybe relax a little? Because you are also starting to become more aggresive agaisnt me, which doesn't bothers me, but it's hilarious (and would make people look bad at you, so take this as a recommendation)

, the Dream World and the mental layer both fit the same role within the cosmology. While there is the mental world/mental layer comparison, it is important to note that both are essentially the collective unconscious of humanity, particularly in regards to emotions. The mental layer's role as a sort of collective unconscious is obvious based on its description and relation to the emotions of all living things, and for the Dream World, it has the same sort of relation to emotions and the subconscious. So you'd either have to admit they're the same, or argue that they're two different things that just so happen to fulfill identical functions within the cosmology, the latter of which is not a reasonable assumption at all. Basically, if it sounds like the mental layer, and acts like the mental layer, it's the ******* mental layer. Also, remind me again where the evidence for every world having its own set of 'layers' comes from? Because Mamizou implies that fate, which as we know is defined by the memory layer, exists 'beyond the veil of our world', so that layer literally cannot exist inside Gensokyo. Otherwise that'd mean the memory layer exists inside Gensokyo but also doesn't, which makes 0 ******* sense.

You know? All of this is really wrong, and literally contradicts the whole reasoning and initial definition of the layers of the world. Heck, it's even possible that this only applies to Gensokyo, but that's another story. I'm just going to say, that fate existing beyond the veil of the world shouldn't really be literal as it was initially stated how memory layer is part of the world itself. If you can't contradict this without being ilogical, then I'm not going to bother to do something but just replying with a XD.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, sorry for saying this but, looking over the discussion, seems like most people reading this was agreeing with me the whole time, which should mean I'm making more sense actually. At this point honestly, seems like you are making a scream out of despair, because potentially this would be rejected (actually was rejected by a staff member), so maybe relax a little? Because you are also starting to become more aggresive agaisnt me, which doesn't bothers me, but it's hilarious (and would make people look bad at you, so take this as a recommendation)

Then start supporting your points with more evidence. You've been making extremely bold claims like 'youkai and ghosts exist on a separate layer of reality' and 'Aya and Hatate can warp reality by printing newspapers' which is ******* fine. Neither of those are inherently so stupid as to be rejected on the basis of their claims alone. But as they say, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, which you have stubbornly refused to provide. And what's worse is that you then deflect that onto me, where I somehow have to prove your wrong, when you should be focusing on proving yourself right.

This is identical to the same bullshit about Lunarian Google or the Sanzu River's magically infinitely replenishing water supply. Just straight up headcanon that functions on the basis of 'idk it seems like it should work that way'. So yes, I'm gonna keep being aggressive, because I have dealt with this exact brand of bullshit many times before, and it's ******* exhausting each and every time.

You know? All of this is really wrong, and literally contradicts the whole reasoning and initial definition of the layers of the world. Heck, it's even possible that this only applies to Gensokyo, but that's another story. I'm just going to say, that fate existing beyond the veil of the world shouldn't really be literal as it was initially stated how memory layer is part of the world itself. If you can't contradict this without being ilogical, then I'm not going to bother to do something but just replying with a XD.

Oh you wanna talk contradictions? The opening line just directly states that all living things fall under the physical layer. So youkai can't exist on the mental layer since, yknow, they're living things. The layers literally cannot be exclusive to Gensokyo though, because they define the laws of physics, the emotions of all living things and their souls, and the workings of probability, fate, and history. So now you're telling me that every other location in the cosmology lacks these concepts because they only exist in Gensokyo. This is just... So utterly ridiculous that I cannot even fathom how you came to this conclusion. Though, funnily enough, every location except Gensokyo lacking those things would end up giving a not-insignificant number of characters some form of NEP regardless. Finally, when Mamizou makes that statement, she's saying our world, which can either mean just Gensokyo or the entire physical layer. The point is that it doesn't exist solely inside Gensokyo like you claim.

Of course, this isn't even mentioning the fact that you haven't even explained what these contradictions are. The more time goes on, the more your arguments just devolve into "I'm right you're wrong no I won't elaborate". In my eyes, it's just clear deflection meant to distract people from the fact that your own claims lack evidence and are clearly wild headcanons.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah **** I've been owned on the internet, time to retire from VS forever and go kill myself, it was a good run :/

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

And what's worse is that you then deflect that onto me, where I somehow have to prove your wrong, when you should be focusing on proving yourself right.

I would do so, if I'm required to do that. But again, most people seems to think that here I'm the one making more sense, so why do I need to restate or provide even more support to my claims when what I'm saying is literally the most logical end to the topic? I'm going to start providing more information and debunk all your headcanons if I see more movement regarding the agreements of both ends, because what I don't want is misinformation, and with what you're saying, well, basically that.

Ah **** I've been owned on the internet, time to retire from VS forever and go kill myself, it was a good run :/

Chau mija

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I would do so, if I'm required to do that. But again, most people seems to think that here I'm the one making more sense, so why do I need to restate or provide even more support to my claims when what I'm saying is literally the most logical end to the topic? I'm going to start providing more information and debunk all your headcanons if I see more movement regarding the agreements of both ends, because what I don't want is misinformation, and with what you're saying, well, basically that.

Literally only 4 people actually acknowledged the recent arguments/recaps, 3 of which are neutral. Also, if we went by the logic 'more people agree with me so I don't have to justify my points', literally every CRT would just be an 'agree/disagree FRA' train with no actual debate. And if you're so confident on your points and think you don't need to defend them... Why bother making new points at all? Like you know sooner or later people are gonna challenge them, so you gotta be ready to back them up. Even in CRTs where the agreement is overwhelming, I still defend my points, like in the Spirit CRT where a grand total of 2 people disagreed with the proposals comapred to 18 agreements. And in this case, we have 2 agreements, 3 neutral, and 4 disagreements. That's not such an overwhelming gap that you can just ignore counterarguments. Not to mention we still have majority agreement on high-godly/information manip for Yukari & Sagume iirc

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Literally only 4 people actually acknowledged the recent arguments/recaps, 3 of which are neutral. Also, if we went by the logic 'more people agree with me so I don't have to justify my points', literally every CRT would just be an 'agree/disagree FRA' train with no actual debate. And if you're so confident on your points and think you don't need to defend them... Why bother making new points at all? Like you know sooner or later people are gonna challenge them, so you gotta be ready to back them up. Even in CRTs where the agreement is overwhelming, I still defend my points, like in the Spirit CRT where a grand total of 2 people disagreed with the proposals comapred to 18 agreements. And in this case, we have 2 agreements, 3 neutral, and 4 disagreements. That's not such an overwhelming gap that you can just ignore counterarguments. Not to mention we still have majority agreement on high-godly/information manip for Yukari & Sagume iirc

The like count actually speaks by itself. If you want to keep arguing with people, then that's your issue, not mines, so I don't have to follow your protocol. And honestly you didn't bringed something new at all, so again, I don't have to waste time keeping a tantrum unless more people come here. And speaking about that, what about you stop spamming arguments constantly, and just call a staff member to analyze all of this? Because at the moment, as I said, one is agreeing with me, and you just extending your points 24/7 wouldn't help to finish this. So why don't you just call someone else? Isn't really that hard, or do I need to do this myself?

 

[ÆONS]

Can you two please just stop cluttering this thread with attacks and other pointless, circular, arguments and just let people read and come to their own conclusions?

You had your turns. Let us speak.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

I mean, I'm trying to do so, but Mokou wants to insist here. So actually, it's Mokou's fault, and I pointed her a lot of times in the thread to not do that.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah my bad for trying to not let headcanons that contradict the story get accepted, I'll try not to do that next time.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Why thank you

Anyway, just call some staff here

 

[Cat275]

Actually, if I am understanding Hecatia's position correctly, the issue is that they seem to think the statements of non-existence are about Gensokyo relative to the outside world; As in, Gensokyo objectively exists, but does not appear that way to the outside world.

However, Rinnosuke's statement is speaking from an objective point of view; With no comparison to other locations, we cannot say that the statement of non-existence here is based on individual perception, and is thus still valid regardless of one's interpretation of it.

And, given this is explicit confirmation of aspect type 4, and we have repeated demonstrations of incorporeality, this means even if we were to discard every other scan on the basis of a flimsy interpretation, NEP would still hold weight.

So here's a chart more clearly explaining what the deal is. With Hecatia's interpretation, the bceoming non-existent stuff is just in reference to moving between the outside world and Gensokyo. However, with Rinnosuke's statement taken into account, we know the process of this occurring removes the 'truth' (type 2 information) of whatever is moving between those worlds. And due to Maribel losing her physical form in Gensokyo, as well as stating that the entirety of it is non-physical, we can safely say that the incorporeality aspect of NEP is met as well. And of course, lacking information and a physical form is literally as blatant of a case of NEP as possible.

Them being in gensokyo should be only nep1.

Anyways i agree with everything besides high godly regen im still neutral on that.

 

[Cat275]

Them being in gensokyo should be only nep1.

Anyways i agree with everything besides high godly regen im still neutral on that.

Im gonna bump again since i don't want to edit.

But anyways i now agree with High godly regen.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It seems like we may have enough support for information manipulation and high-godly regeneration regardless of the conclusions on NEP, so that's good at least.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

So uh

What exactly do we do now that the only staff member to comment here is now permabanned?

 

[ÆONS]

Bump

So uh

What exactly do we do now that the only staff member to comment here is now permabanned?

They got banned?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

They got banned?

Yeah, QuasiYuri got banned, check the RVR.

 

[ÆONS]

TW: Racism & ethnophobia

Spoiler

I have read through the RVR thread. Since QuasiYuri got permanently banned for saying a racial slur, I believe that their vote should be removed from this CRT.

I have read Mokou's responses and here are my takes on it.

I think type 2 Information Manipulation should apply to Yukari as well as any other characters who can manipulate information like she can (ie. the gods themselves). I also think that youkai should get some form of NEP since I believe that their non-existence is evident. Lastly, I lean towards agreeing with High-Godly regeneration.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I suppose giving primordials information manipulation based on them creating more or less everything in the verse would make sense, since that would include truth. Anyways, I'll change your vote and remove QuasiYuri's. Current tally is 4 agreements, 3 disagreements, and 2 neutral.

 

[Thestrikingzebra]

After reading through everything, I have to say I agree with these revisions.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

5-3-2, I wonder if Hecatia will follow through on their promise to post a proper debunk if I got more support

 

[ÆONS]

5-3-2, I wonder if Hecatia will follow through on their promise to post a proper debunk if I got more support

There's still some people who have yet to make their minds. It's best to wait for them.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm fine with that. Votes are still close as-is, so waiting for more input isn't a bad idea.

 

[Shiroiyo]

It has been a while, after reading the summaries I agree with the op.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

6-3-2 now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Gonzalo]

Disagree for the same reasons as Hecatia

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Disagree for the same reasons as Hecatia

What are your thoughts on high-godly/information manipulation? Asking for clarification since Hecatia agreed with those I don't wanna automatically assume you also do.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Violatas]

These Touhou threads will continue forever

 

[Shmooply]

These Touhou threads will continue forever

I guess now we know the true extent of Kaguya's ability.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I guess now we know the true extent of Kaguya's ability.

There's probably a joke related to my username somewhere in here but I'm too lazy to think of one.