Your Waifus Do Not Exist: Touhou Main Cast NEP + High-Godly

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will get around to responding to this eventually, though it may not be today. Just know that I'm working on a response.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

welP

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But they aren't really losing any aspect there. While yes, they are being removed in the Outside World and in that sense they are in fact being erased, they aren't becoming nonexistent in the general sense, but just reshaping in another world (Gensokyo).

I never denied any of that. We seem to agree that they get erased, which is good, but I haven't really seen an explanation as to how they are recovering the aspects of themselves that have been removed, those being information and physical form.

I'm saying that for any other world they aren't becoming 0 after entering Gensokyo. You misunderstood my statement. I'm not negating that they disappear in the Outside World. I'm saying that this banishment will not turn then into 0 directly, as they are being restored within Gensokyo due to the whole boundary of reality and fantasy. The whole losing physical form stuff isn't really true at all, but I will explain that below.

Yeah, I already explained the first part. The barrier between truth and fiction that determines non-existence encompasses everything in the verse, so characters from various Otherworlds don't need to be affected by the barrier a second time. It's already affected them. Will address the losing physical form part when you explain it later on.

Basically what I said. I didn't make a 1:1 comparison with real illusions, I just said it's something akin to them. And also, none of this really refutes my claims about that part of being "nonexistent" didn't meaning true nonexistence, but just that Youkais are in fact imaginary creatures related to mind and perception.
The memory layer actually correlates with truth and information. That's why Aya indirectly alters history by publishing her newspaper, or her magazine (something stated in Alternative Facts in Eastern Utopia), or Sagume changes history by twisting the truth with her words (speaking of that she needs that listed tho). And while fear and such doesn't require information per se, Youkais relies on the records and rumors about what they do in order to exist. For that, obviously, they require information to be existing, because if not, they would have disappear a long while.

Could I see scans of Aya altering history in AFiEU? You also have Sagume's ability a bit backwards; She isn't using truth manipulation as a means of altering causality, but she is altering causality in order to create 'truth' from nothing, which I will elaborate on in a bit.

Youkai do not rely on rumors or records. Such things naturally exist in the outside world, yet youkai are unable to sustain their existence there. It is the belief that such things are the truth that gives youkai their existence; Rumors and records may be a vector through which such belief is attained and maintained, but they are not strictly necessary, as belief can still exist without them. In any case, yes, youkai still do require information to exist, which is why they 'disappear' upon having that information (their "truth") removed, and then regenerate. However, they quite clearly aren't retaining their information while doing so, because they literally cannot continue to exist in the outside world after that point.

Literally stated that the physical layer, is, redundantly, physical. It literally follows every physical phenomenon and explains, again, physical laws.
How's that of ghosts and phantoms "obviously" living in the physical layer? No lmao, that's utterly false. There's nothing stating that's the case, and they obviously coexist within the mental layer, which is the metaphysical one. You have nothing to prove that claim, unless I don't know something, because from the record, outside of CoLA, the layers of reality aren't mentioned nevermore. Besides, that isn't disproving my points, because, even assuming that's true somehow, doesn't disproves that there's a clear distinction between physical and non-physical in Gensokyo. Heck, WBaWC literally states how humans are actually physical entities.

You do realize the physical layer, even by your own definition, would still include gods and youkai, who we both agree are incorporeal, right? They're definitely alive and we have 0 indication that they somehow paradoxically exist on another layer while being present in the physical one. Claiming that ghosts and the like somehow do coexist within the mental layer is a particularly bold statement, and if you have evidence of it, I would like to see it.

I don't think there's anything expressly disallowing characters with NEP to have other forms of incorporeality. Characters in Touhou may all be incorporeal due to non-existence, but some are also incorporeal to such an extent that it surpasses their state of non-existence. Hell, semi-contradictory incorporeality is a factor in Gensokyo whether or not you believe in NEP, as Murasa, who is incorporeal due to being a phantom, can somehow achieve a state of incorporeality that makes her untouchable to characters who can interact with her 'base' incorporeality. Yukari does the same thing in her fight as well. So 'layered' incorporeality is very much a thing in Touhou, and adding another layer on top of everyone doesn't contradict anything; Just means ghosts and the like have 2 layers as opposed to the 1 they used to have.

So, you're misunderstanding the WBaWC stuff. It isn't solely about flesh-and-blood physicality, and in fact, that's pretty easy to prove; Yuuma, a beast spirit, is able to directly harm and interact with characters who you claim are physical in nature, and the same goes for Saki and Yachie. The exact reason why the beast spirits needed a human was because spiritual attacks could only harm spiritual bodies, so it was more about spiritual nonexistence rather than any sort of physical nonexistence.

Now with Maribel, this is an argument with trick yet it's uncontextualized at all. First, while isn't directly mentioned, Gensokyo's inhabitants seeing every entity from different worlds as phantom-like entities doesn't imply a real contradiction at all. Yes, it's speculative, but there's nothing debunking me or you, so it's a dead point. But that's only if we are going with you interpretation. Second, Maribel isn't making a direct statement. She's only saying a speculation of hers, which doesn't proves anything direct at all. She just said a possibility, hence why the "perhaps they see me as a phantom-like being," but she didn't make a direct claim of "I became a phantom-like being when entering Gensokyo" or "My physical body disappeared at the time of entering the world beyond" to assume everyone who enters became non-corporeal. You just can't get much from this if there isn't something clear at all. Third, even assuming that people from the Outside World loses their physical selves after entering Gensokyo... how's supposedly refutes that there's clearly distinctions between physical entities and metaphysical ones, again?

The statement comes after the apparition of a Youkai, and all the examples of incorporeal entities comes from Youkais. But anyway, "physical form has no meaning in that world beyond anyways" doesn't necessarily has to refer as literal, but instead, it just can mean that in Gensokyo incorporeal creatures can coexist with physical ones. It's more logical, and doesn't contradicts previous statements about physical things existing in Gensokyo.

Well first off, Gensokyo's residents seeing every Otherworld akin to a phantom is incorrect. It only applies to the outside world, and even then this only applies in the context of people entering Gensokyo. Hell, you can see this pretty clearly in ULiL; Reimu can harm Sumireko just fine in the outside world, but literally phases through her when she enters Gensokyo.

Well, as demonstrated above, humans do lose physical form upon entering Gensokyo, so this conjecture is actively backed up by canonical events. Even then, her 'physical form has no meaning' statement is not speculative in the slightest, and she seems 100% confident when she says it. I'm also not sure why there being a distinction from physical and metaphysical has anything to do with anything here.

Why exactly is that interpretation more correct than mine? I would again bring up Sumireko and her lack of physicality in Gensokyo, but honestly, I don't even need to. Akyuu describes primordial gods as formless entities who cannot be touched, so physical form obviously does have some meaning in the sense of characters interacting with each other, so this interpretation doesn't make sense.

Again no, memory and truth are indeed correlated each other. Bunbunmaru is actually literal information manip, and something that alters and changes truth, stated by your own scan. Even that's the reason Aya's is the perfect target for Lunarians.

This is the part I was waiting for. So let's start off by showing how your understanding of Sagume's ability, and by extension how that ability correlates with Aya, is incorrect.

Aya does not create truth in any sense; When Aya herself tries to claim this, Eiki immediately shuts her down and says she's wrong. We have pretty clear confirmation that Bunbunmaru does not do what you claim it does, and it comes from one of the most reliable and trustworthy sources in Gensokyo.

The thing about Sagume using Aya in AFiEU isn't because Bunbunmaru itself had already manipulated the truth. Rather, she was using the gossip spread by the paper to use as a 'base' for her abilities to take hold, and thus create the truth based on those beliefs (something also directly stated by Hecatia; Bunbunmaru by itself isn't doing anything, it's Sagume's power). This presents a clear problem, since this proves Sagume could not directly alter the truth within Gensokyo; She needed to specifically spread the concept of something being true using a third party, and subsequently create those truths from a state of non-existence. This is further supported but her omake.txt, which describes her ability relating to the occult balls to create manifestations of rumors (ie; urban legends), thus making them 'true' in a sense. The problem with that is that the omake.txt also states that these manifestations of truth literally should not exist. The very notion of creating 'truth' runs counterintuitive to existence itself in Gensokyo. Also, this begs the question of if merely manipulating the truth via spreading information was able to accomplish Sagume's goals, why would Sagume create the occult balls at all? It's a clear contradiction against the entire basis of your argument here.

Or, to simplify it a bit; Sagume literally could not manipulate pre-existing truths and needed to create her own from non-existence. If anything, this hard confirms that truth does not exist in Gensokyo, since there was nothing for Sagume to manipulate. Though, given she can create truth, she also gets type 2 information manip, which I hope we can agree on.

Your own scan states this: truth is built upon information, which makes it something really susceptible against these kind of things. Information as a whole is type 2 for everyone in-verse, so you can't say Aya only has type 1 or so.
Again, the whole context of the statement is that truth itself isn't something you can write and say "ok this is true," but instead it's a so fragile idea that literally can be written and rewritten constantly by those who has enough power to do so.

Well, I never said she had any kind of information manip, but that's beside the point. The scans above are clear indications that genuinely altering the truth requires literal reality warping to take place, and isn't so easily changed like you claim (yes I know Rinnosuke says it is easily changed, but that is specifically referring to reality warping information, not necessarily stuff like Aya's paper, which is already hard contradicted by the above scans). And type 2 information for everyone in the verse is uh.... I'm gonna need to see some really good evidence of that before even considering it an option lmao

Hell, Rinnosuke just straight up confirms Bunbunmaru is type 1 by likening it to knowledge, which is what type 1 is.

Actually, that's the whole premise of the chapter. And isn't something totally restrained to Gensokyo, but the entire verse.
(Seriously after reading the whole chapter I see how much decontextualized the statement is)
But anyway. Let's look at the whole context.
First, truth isn't something you can outright put down and write, doing so will instead erase the truth. That's one of the reasons there's no history in Gensokyo:

Second, the whole reason of this statement:

Isn't because there's literally no information in Gensokyo, but instead, because since Youkai has a long life-span, they can easily (even unconsciously) change facts and information, reason of why there's no historical records in first place:

For the first part, that isn't actually the reason Rinnosuke gives for the lack of history. Later on in the chapter, he gives the actual reason, which is the youkai stuff you also quoted.

Anyways, youkai aren't literally altering history or information, because it's said that the entire basis of them supposedly being able to do so is just a joke. So the whole thing is just an unfounded rumor that Rinnosuke happens to believe in, until Reimu corrects him later on.

Third, while truth/history/information can be manipulated by Youkais as they please, that doesn't mean there can't exist truth at all. In fact, that's something Rinnosuke plans to do by creating his own history book, which as he intend, could potentially create the first historical record in Gensokyo:

(This also confirms by point about information and the memory layer being essentially connected)

Yeah, so, this just proves my point. Rinnosuke is speaking about creating that truth at some point in the future; This has 0 bearing on what Gensokyo is like in the present, which is obviously what we need to base the profiles on. The fact that he even needs to create truth to begin with is just further evidence that current-day Gensokyo doesn't have it at all. What's the need for creating a concept that already exists? Furthermore, he even says that Gensokyo would become closer to the outside world if he were to do this, which is strong evidence for there being a clear dichotomy between Gensokyo and the outside world when it comes to the existence of 'truth'.

Also, it's really ******* unlikely he could even accomplish this, given the aforementioned difficulty in creating truth and the fact that Rinnosuke is uh, a little overconfident in his abilities at times (like when he genuinely believed he could astral project to the outside world at will).

And while causality and information are connected, it's not in the way you think. They aren't directly connected such that they are both reliant on each other, it's just that causality is a means through which one may manipulate or create information, as demonstrated by Sagume's ability. Think of causality as a tree and information as a fruit on that tree; Removing the fruit will not remove the tree alongside it, while conversely, removing the entire tree will remove the fruit as well. So removing information has little to no bearing on causality.

Lastly, even without all of this, there's one character that reaffirms my initial point: Chimata.

Marketplaces and ownership can exist in Gensokyo, and thus, information as a whole is still existing there, just in a different way than the regular information of the Outside World. It wouldn't make sense that information as a whole is lost when entering there, yet objects can still have within them remnants of information.

These statements are just referring to the memory of certain actions occurring though, this has like 0 relation to what I'm talking about.

You can't just point to any mention of truth or information as a debunk, we need to see it have at least some sort of tangible effect on reality, and I'm just not seeing that here. It's just type 1 information in this case, or very generously causality since it's in reference to actions being recorded and remembered a la the memory layer. Either way, not type 2 information.

Because in that sense she is losing her previous existence, but instead of literally disappearing, she just gained a new one? The conversation goes around the Outside World, and it's talking from the perspective of the Outside World. Of course she's becoming non-existent for them (which is also kinda false because her memory is still there), but that doesn't mean she's actually becoming a nameless/non-existent being as a whole, not in the same sense as a true divinity.

I already explained why 'losing her existence' isn't referring to her moving between worlds, but I will explain again. Basically, Miko is already well aware of the fact that this has occurred; There's literally a year-long gap between TD and SoPM, after all. She even acknowledges the fact that she's moved between worlds, though she isn't aware of why. Then Kanako tells her she has ceased to exist, something she is caught completely off guard by. So, if ceasing to exist is just a fancy phrase for moving from Gensokyo to the outside world, why is Miko's reaction very different between the two? If they were the same, she'd just be like 'well, I already knew that', so they literally have to be different for this scene to make any sense at all.

Because it's actually happening... I'm not disagreeing with them losing their existence in the Outside World. What I'm saying here is that doing so isn't enough to give them directly NEP. Like, of course, Youkai are erased after being forgotten/becoming "fictional" beings, but they are restored after reaching Gensokyo, that's my whole point. And yes, they remain as "inexistent" creatures under the perspective of the Outside World, but that's not to be treated as literal, because, again, they return in Gensokyo after this. Like seriously... this is as logical as, said, giving Saber Alter NEP just because she was erased by the Corrupted Grail, yet somehow managed to return as an "erased" existence. Same shit, yet not something to be treated as literal. But in this case is even worse, because literally everything in the series contradicts this notion, like, basically everything I quoted above.

Well first off, let's not bring other verses into this since they have their own reasons for doing shit. Maybe Saber should get NEP, but I don't know and that's not my business.

As I mentioned before, Rinnosuke's statement about truth not existing in Gensokyo does not bring up the outside world at any point. He is speaking solely from an objective point of view here; Gensokyo, in a vacuum, lacks truth. There is nothing about this statement that could be read as 'Gensokyo lacks truth from the perspective of the outside world'.

Same goes for Kanako's statement; She just flat out says that Miko doesn't exist, and I already explained above why that cannot be referring to any relation to the outside world.

Furthermore, it goes against the entire basis of Yukari's barrier to assume that truth is somehow retained when moving to Gensokyo. Gensokyo is repeatedly stated to be established as fantasy, as opposed to the outside world's 'reality', so to assume that 'real' entities can exist in Gensokyo in any capacity is a huge reach that you haven't really provided evidence for.

I've addressed the rest of your arguments above, so I won't repeat myself here.

No. Non-existent in this case is equal to be dead. For a Youkai, being completely forgotten is the equivalent of dying. That's why they need to spread their terror and change information so they can still living. It wouldn't make sense that entering Gensokyo will turn them as non-existent beings because if they become so they will purely die, which also was the whole reason why Gensokyo was created in first place: to prevent this happening, by creating the barrier between fantasy and reality, so fantasy beings can still exist here. A character can enter here by losing its existence in the Outside World, of course, but not everyone is going to enter by the same premise.

We kind of have a hard contradiction on that in the form of Koishi, though. She is literally unable to be perceived or believed in and no longer has a defined purpose due to removing her mind, but she is paradoxically able to exist despite lacking the things youkai need to survive (and as we all know, a youkai's mind is essentially the core of their existence, so she was erasing multiple necessary aspects of her existence). Hell, we even see this in FS, where a youkai lacking the fundamental concepts needed to become a youkai is still able to paradoxically exist (which should give youkai type 2 if I'm being honest, but I ain't going that far yet). So youkai can in fact exist in a non-existent state despite what you claim.

And anyways, youkai can undergo 'death' without necessarily dying; In a similar sense, youkai 'die' when being possessed, but still technically live even if they get ****** up by it (as repeatedly shown throughout CDS). They can 'die' without dying, despite how incredibly ******* stupid that sounds in concept.

Well, I never said it only encompasses the island. I'm saying that the barrier encompasses Gensokyo as a whole. Regardless, this doesn't really disproves my points at all.

My point is that the truth-fiction barrier includes the entire cosmology, so unlike what you claim, there's no need for Otherworld denizens to become non-existent when entering Gensokyo because they already are non-existent.

...Huh, this didn't take as long as I expected even though it still took like 4 hours. I'll keep digging for relevant info and post it here if any comes up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Sooner or later some poor staff is gonna have to evaluate all these text walls :v

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[PrinceofPein]

You only need to bump after 24hrs

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I've pretty much always bumped every 8 hours, ig I can try to cut back a little though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I've pretty much always bumped every 8 hours, ig I can try to cut back a little though.

I get that’s why I am just letting you know, it’s enough to bump once every 24hrs

 

[Bummel]

Shouldnot yukari and other youkai that can fine walking outside gensokyo have somekind of resistence to existence erasure/information manipulation/something?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Shouldnot yukari and other youkai that can fine walking outside gensokyo have somekind of resistence to existence erasure/information manipulation/something?

Yes, I plan on adding that in the future. Though, if informational NEP is accepted, I'm not sure how we would quantify them not being sent back to Gensokyo while in the outside world, as they wouldn't necessarily be erased on the level of what they have already had erased. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it, though.

 

[Bummel]

Alright
I agree with everything except high godly regen
Neutral for that one

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Does these NEP going to be apply outside of Gensokyo?

 

[Shmooply]

Does these NEP going to be apply outside of Gensokyo?

Outside World denizens aren't getting it.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Outside World denizens aren't getting it.

Nonono, what i mean is the characters from Gensokyo itself

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Does these NEP going to be apply outside of Gensokyo?

Yes. The only characters it doesn't apply to are Sumireko, Maribel, and Renko. This is because the barrier of truth and fiction that defines existence and non-existence extends across the entire cosmology (or at least every location that matters when it comes to these upgrades).

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Yes. The only characters it doesn't apply to are Sumireko, Maribel, and Renko. This is because the barrier of truth and fiction that defines existence and non-existence extends across the entire cosmology (or at least every location that matters when it comes to these upgrades).

Wouldn't it apply to Sumireko's doppelganger, though? assuming we end up making separate keys for her

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Oh wait, I misunderstood the question, I think.

Yeah they'll retain their NEP outside Gensokyo, there's nothing really indicating that Yukari or Mamizou or whoever somehow regain the truth of their existence when going into the outside world. If it were that easy, Gensokyo wouldn't even really need to exist.

Wouldn't it apply to Sumireko's doppelganger, though? assuming we end up making separate keys for her

Which Sumireko was that again, there are too many to keep track of

 

[QuasiYuri]

I disagree for the same reasons as Hecatia.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What about high-godly and information manip?

 

[ÆONS]

I agree with the OP.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

There's been a lot of back and forth, and extra information being gathered.

Maybe both sides should construct a big post that complies all of their arguments and evidence together. That would make it easier for people just coming into the thread as horrifyingly large as said posts may be

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I can get started on that in a bit.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I can get started on that in a bit.

I think someone neutral should do that

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I mean, Donnelly suggested that both sides do it, so if you're worried about bias, it won't really be a factor.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

As requested, a summary of my own points. Please read through all of this before commenting with agreement or disagreement, given that it’s much more comprehensive than the OP.

The Non-Existence of Gensokyo

Gensokyo and its inhabitants are repeatedly stated to be non-existent in one form or another. In SoPM, Miko is said to have ceased to exist and renounced her existence. In CoLA, Rinnosuke states that everything within Gensokyo is likened to an illusion. SCoOW states that things lose their existence upon entering Gensokyo. Also in SoPM is how youkai who are non-existent (which would include those who used to exist but then stopped existing for reasons I’ll cover in a bit) naturally appear inside Gensokyo. Finally, when Miko learns that her existence has been denied due to being forgotten, she immediately compares herself to a god, beings who cease to exist for the exact same reason (their primordial key is exactly what this ‘forgotten’ state is).

However, according to Hecatia, this is not in reference to literal existence, but rather ‘existence’ in the outside world, and thus the references to losing existence are in fact referring to the process of moving between worlds. The problem with this is a matter of translation; Japanese has multiple words that can be translated to existence, with two in particular that should be taken note of, those being 存在 and 有無. 存在 refers to existence as we would usually define it; One’s being or state of existence. 有無, meanwhile, refers to one’s presence.

Looking at the scans above, the ones that specifically mention existence or non-existence use 存在, the literal state of existence, and not 有無, which is what Hecatia’s interpretation would be arguing for. Therefore, we can conclude that these scans are referring to literal existence erasure, and not moving from point A to point B, as if the latter interpretation were true, the scans would use 有無 and not 存在. In the case of Miko’s non-existence, this is further supported by her reaction; At this point in the timeline, she is already aware of having moved to Gensokyo and has accepted it. Yet, when Kanako mentions her non-existence, Miko seems quite surprised by this statement. Given her previous acceptance of moving between worlds, it would not make sense for Miko to be caught off guard by Kanako’s statement if ‘ceasing to exist’ was truly just meant to convey that she moved between worlds. Therefore, the existence erasure argument is a far more likely interpretation.

Truth, and the Lack of it

Truth is a common concept introduced throughout Touhou, given it is a series primarily focused on the idea of subjective truth. However, it is also a concept in a more tangible sense, as it is repeatedly shown to be able to affect reality itself.

Truth is shown to be able to determine whether or not things exist in a conventional sense, as shown by the barrier Yukari created distinguishing the two. When the truth of something is removed in the outside world, it will invariably find its way to Gensokyo as a result, effectively erasing it from existence. From this, we can conclude that truth is a fundamental aspect of one’s existence in Touhou. This leads to another basis of NEP, as Gensokyo is shown to lack truth entirely. The first piece of evidence for this is that Yukari’s barrier is quite literally the separation of truth and fiction, the outside world being established as truth and Gensokyo as fiction in this case. Naturally, the existence of truth within a realm which is specifically intended to exist in a state without it would be very contradictory. We then have Rinnosuke explaining truth further, likening it to information that can alter reality itself, and goes on to say that truth does not exist inside Gensokyo. Information that alters reality is quite obviously type 2 information.

With truth being established as type 2 information and Gensokyo lacking it, we can extend this to those who live within Gensokyo, and due to their established non-existence, this would grant them aspect type 4 when it comes to NEP.

Further proving the lack of truth within Gensokyo is Sagume, with the specifics of how her ability ties into the plot being the key here. Despite her ability being described as twisting truth, this isn’t necessarily the case, as it is more accurately described as creating truth. We can see this both in her attempt to manipulate Aya in AFiEU, as well as her creation of the Occult Balls in ULiL.

Sagume could not manipulate pre-existing truths present in Gensokyo to accomplish either of these. She specifically needed to use Aya’s paper as a basis for the belief that something was false, and subsequently use her power to confirm such falsity as truth, thereby creating truth from a state of nothingness (Aya outright says that the urban legends were non-existent). The same is true of the Occult Balls. With that in mind, this is very good evidence of truth being non-existent in Gensokyo, since if it did exist, Sagume would not need to create it from nothingness; She could just alter what was already there.

It is important to note that the truth/fiction barrier that determines the lack of existence of certain beings is not the Great Hakurei Barrier that denotes Gensokyo as a spatially separate location; Instead, the truth/fiction barrier encompasses essentially everything in the verse. It was shown to extend beyond the Lunar Capital, and is said to cover the entire world. Due to this, every character who does not live in the outside world will get non-existent physiology, as the barrier that determines whether they exist or do not exist has already affected them.

Note that while characters like Aya claim to be controlling the truth, this is not the case. While she has convinced herself of this, when she mentions it to Eiki, she is immediately shut down. Combined with the previous evidence of truth not existing in Gensokyo, we can’t take Aya’s word at face value here. Truth, despite what many would interpret it as, is extremely difficult to alter, as it requires something akin to reality warping, and that alone isn’t enough; It often requires extra steps to take place at all. Please also note that youkai do not actually control history or truth despite what Hecatia claims, as this is literally just a joke in-universe.

Incorporeality

Gensokyo’s denizens meet the incorporeality requirement of NEP, too. This is commonly shown throughout Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, as when Maribel enters Gensokyo, she becomes akin to a phantom, when she sees a youkai cat in the outside world, she notes it to be phasing through objects, and she outright says that physical form is meaningless within Gensokyo. It also bears mentioning that many characters within Gensokyo are incorporeal regardless of these statements (the majority of them, in fact).

There are a few important things to note here. First is that there are still hierarchies of incorporeality present within Gensokyo itself. Ghosts and the like are one step above the ‘baseline’ incorporeality granted by NEP, so you can think of them as having two layers while everyone else gets one. This sort of layered incorporeality is not even necessarily unique to NEP, as phantoms like Murasa can already enter a state of incorporeality beyond their base incorporeality, and Yukari, who should have incorporeality due to separate reasons, can do the same.

There’s also the question of the physical layer and how such beings can exist on that layer despite it being, well, physical. The problem with that is that it is merely defined as the layer where the laws of physics and gravity exist, and is not necessarily limited to wholly physical objects, as non-physical entities such as ghosts, phantoms, gods, and so on exist in this layer. With that in mind, non-existent characters should have trouble living there as well.

Finally, Touhou occasionally refers to some characters as having flesh and blood. This isn’t necessarily proof against incorporeality, as ‘flesh and blood’ can also be read as an idiom likening one to family, or as is more likely in this context, human-like in general. It is also still possible for this to just be a matter of the incorporeality hierarchy mentioned above, as non-existent humans would still technically be more ‘physical’ than non-existent ghosts. Also, ghosts in Touhou have blood, so incorporeal entities inexplicably having corporeal characteristics is not exactly new. Don’t ask me how that’s supposed to work.

High-Godly

As mentioned above, youkai naturally disappear from the outside world due to a lack of truth to their existence. This is stated to be akin to being erased from existence (as also mentioned here), yet youkai reform inside Gensokyo regardless. Due to the removal of truth being informational erasure, and youkai recovering from being erased on this level, they should get high-godly regeneration.

 

[Hecatia_Gaming]

Well I thought responding one more time shouldn't be necessary, but now I will my own summary + debunk to some of Mokou's point.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Sure, take your time responding. I'll call for some more staff to comment here once you do.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

Btw if we do happen to agree that Gensokyo lacks type 2 information but don't accept the incorporeality evidence, I guess the already incorporeal characters would get NEP anyways?

 

[Malomtek]

As requested, a summary of my own points. Please read through all of this before commenting with agreement or disagreement, given that it’s much more comprehensive than the OP.

The Non-Existence of Gensokyo

Gensokyo and its inhabitants are repeatedly stated to be non-existent in one form or another. In SoPM, Miko is said to have ceased to exist and renounced her existence. In CoLA, Rinnosuke states that everything within Gensokyo is likened to an illusion. SCoOW states that things lose their existence upon entering Gensokyo. Also in SoPM is how youkai who are non-existent (which would include those who used to exist but then stopped existing for reasons I’ll cover in a bit) naturally appear inside Gensokyo. Finally, when Miko learns that her existence has been denied due to being forgotten, she immediately compares herself to a god, beings who cease to exist for the exact same reason (their primordial key is exactly what this ‘forgotten’ state is).

However, according to Hecatia, this is not in reference to literal existence, but rather ‘existence’ in the outside world, and thus the references to losing existence are in fact referring to the process of moving between worlds. The problem with this is a matter of translation; Japanese has multiple words that can be translated to existence, with two in particular that should be taken note of, those being 存在 and 有無. 存在 refers to existence as we would usually define it; One’s being or state of existence. 有無, meanwhile, refers to one’s presence.

Looking at the scans above, the ones that specifically mention existence or non-existence use 存在, the literal state of existence, and not 有無, which is what Hecatia’s interpretation would be arguing for. Therefore, we can conclude that these scans are referring to literal existence erasure, and not moving from point A to point B, as if the latter interpretation were true, the scans would use 有無 and not 存在. In the case of Miko’s non-existence, this is further supported by her reaction; At this point in the timeline, she is already aware of having moved to Gensokyo and has accepted it. Yet, when Kanako mentions her non-existence, Miko seems quite surprised by this statement. Given her previous acceptance of moving between worlds, it would not make sense for Miko to be caught off guard by Kanako’s statement if ‘ceasing to exist’ was truly just meant to convey that she moved between worlds. Therefore, the existence erasure argument is a far more likely interpretation.

Truth, and the Lack of it

Truth is a common concept introduced throughout Touhou, given it is a series primarily focused on the idea of subjective truth. However, it is also a concept in a more tangible sense, as it is repeatedly shown to be able to affect reality itself.

Truth is shown to be able to determine whether or not things exist in a conventional sense, as shown by the barrier Yukari created distinguishing the two. When the truth of something is removed in the outside world, it will invariably find its way to Gensokyo as a result, effectively erasing it from existence. From this, we can conclude that truth is a fundamental aspect of one’s existence in Touhou. This leads to another basis of NEP, as Gensokyo is shown to lack truth entirely. The first piece of evidence for this is that Yukari’s barrier is quite literally the separation of truth and fiction, the outside world being established as truth and Gensokyo as fiction in this case. Naturally, the existence of truth within a realm which is specifically intended to exist in a state without it would be very contradictory. We then have Rinnosuke explaining truth further, likening it to information that can alter reality itself, and goes on to say that truth does not exist inside Gensokyo. Information that alters reality is quite obviously type 2 information.

With truth being established as type 2 information and Gensokyo lacking it, we can extend this to those who live within Gensokyo, and due to their established non-existence, this would grant them aspect type 4 when it comes to NEP.

Further proving the lack of truth within Gensokyo is Sagume, with the specifics of how her ability ties into the plot being the key here. Despite her ability being described as twisting truth, this isn’t necessarily the case, as it is more accurately described as creating truth. We can see this both in her attempt to manipulate Aya in AFiEU, as well as her creation of the Occult Balls in ULiL.

Sagume could not manipulate pre-existing truths present in Gensokyo to accomplish either of these. She specifically needed to use Aya’s paper as a basis for the belief that something was false, and subsequently use her power to confirm such falsity as truth, thereby creating truth from a state of nothingness (Aya outright says that the urban legends were non-existent). The same is true of the Occult Balls. With that in mind, this is very good evidence of truth being non-existent in Gensokyo, since if it did exist, Sagume would not need to create it from nothingness; She could just alter what was already there.

It is important to note that the truth/fiction barrier that determines the lack of existence of certain beings is not the Great Hakurei Barrier that denotes Gensokyo as a spatially separate location; Instead, the truth/fiction barrier encompasses essentially everything in the verse. It was shown to extend beyond the Lunar Capital, and is said to cover the entire world. Due to this, every character who does not live in the outside world will get non-existent physiology, as the barrier that determines whether they exist or do not exist has already affected them.

Note that while characters like Aya claim to be controlling the truth, this is not the case. While she has convinced herself of this, when she mentions it to Eiki, she is immediately shut down. Combined with the previous evidence of truth not existing in Gensokyo, we can’t take Aya’s word at face value here. Truth, despite what many would interpret it as, is extremely difficult to alter, as it requires something akin to reality warping, and that alone isn’t enough; It often requires extra steps to take place at all. Please also note that youkai do not actually control history or truth despite what Hecatia claims, as this is literally just a joke in-universe.

Incorporeality

Gensokyo’s denizens meet the incorporeality requirement of NEP, too. This is commonly shown throughout Dr. Latency’s Freak Report, as when Maribel enters Gensokyo, she becomes akin to a phantom, when she sees a youkai cat in the outside world, she notes it to be phasing through objects, and she outright says that physical form is meaningless within Gensokyo. It also bears mentioning that many characters within Gensokyo are incorporeal regardless of these statements (the majority of them, in fact).

There are a few important things to note here. First is that there are still hierarchies of incorporeality present within Gensokyo itself. Ghosts and the like are one step above the ‘baseline’ incorporeality granted by NEP, so you can think of them as having two layers while everyone else gets one. This sort of layered incorporeality is not even necessarily unique to NEP, as phantoms like Murasa can already enter a state of incorporeality beyond their base incorporeality, and Yukari, who should have incorporeality due to separate reasons, can do the same.

There’s also the question of the physical layer and how such beings can exist on that layer despite it being, well, physical. The problem with that is that it is merely defined as the layer where the laws of physics and gravity exist, and is not necessarily limited to wholly physical objects, as non-physical entities such as ghosts, phantoms, gods, and so on exist in this layer. With that in mind, non-existent characters should have trouble living there as well.

Finally, Touhou occasionally refers to some characters as having flesh and blood. This isn’t necessarily proof against incorporeality, as ‘flesh and blood’ can also be read as an idiom likening one to family, or as is more likely in this context, human-like in general. It is also still possible for this to just be a matter of the incorporeality hierarchy mentioned above, as non-existent humans would still technically be more ‘physical’ than non-existent ghosts. Also, ghosts in Touhou have blood, so incorporeal entities inexplicably having corporeal characteristics is not exactly new. Don’t ask me how that’s supposed to work.

High-Godly

As mentioned above, youkai naturally disappear from the outside world due to a lack of truth to their existence. This is stated to be akin to being erased from existence (as also mentioned here), yet youkai reform inside Gensokyo regardless. Due to the removal of truth being informational erasure, and youkai recovering from being erased on this level, they should get high-godly regeneration.

I'm only okay with the idea that Yukari Yakumo can manipulate information.

Everything else is just plain wrong.

The "nonexistence of Gensokyo" only refers to their existence as something separate from the "outside world" or "real reality". They're simply considered to be fictional relative to the "outside"/"real" world, not literally nonexistent. There's no reason to believe that they don't exist physically, unless you want to advance the notion that everything in Gensokyo are just parts of the delusion of Maribel Hearn or some other person/group of people, being little more than figments of the imagination with zero actual power.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

The whole physical thing in gensokyo not mattering while also how its depicted to appear like they are physical and have blood basically screams bleach and bleach is a weird case already in this site. I have to look more into that.

Information type 2 fits

I dont really agree with layers of incorporeality like most people here started to claim because incorporeality is about their true body and not because they can do it with this ability or that. At best the ghost becoming even more ghost to phase through ghost would just be intangibility even to incorporeal beings. Which is basically the same thing as people saying i have layers of incorporeality

Gonna read the high godly part at a later time

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The "nonexistence of Gensokyo" only refers to their existence as something separate from the "outside world" or "real reality". They're simply considered to be fictional relative to the "outside"/"real" world, not literally nonexistent. There's no reason to believe that they don't exist physically, unless you want to advance the notion that everything in Gensokyo are just parts of the delusion of Maribel Hearn or some other person/group of people, being little more than figments of the imagination with zero actual power.

I've been over this. The specific term used to refer to existence/non-existence in the scans provided are referring to one's literal existence. Furthermore, Miko's reaction to becoming non-existent would make literally 0 ******* sense if it were a matter of relativity to the outside world. "Hm yes let me react to the same bit of information in two different ways, this is perfectly logical". Not to mention the repeated affirmation of entities within Gensokyo lacking fundamental traits of their existence regardless of any sort of existence or non-existence.

You're seemingly conflating existence with power or dimensionality which is just... No. A non-existent character can be just as strong (or weak) as a character who exists; It has no bearing on tiering, and only affects who can interact with them. The whole 'zero actual power' bit is just totally wrong.

The whole physical thing in gensokyo not mattering while also how its depicted to appear like they are physical and have blood basically screams bleach and bleach is a weird case already in this site. I have to look more into that.

Information type 2 fits

I dont really agree with layers of incorporeality like most people here started to claim because incorporeality is about their true body and not because they can do it with this ability or that. At best the ghost becoming even more ghost to phase through ghost would just be intangibility even to incorporeal beings. Which is basically the same thing as people saying i have layers of incorporeality

Gonna read the high godly part at a later time

Not sure if you agree or disagree with non-existence. Anyways, I don't understand the first part. What relevance does Bleach have to the proposals here?

Whether it's incorporeality X 2 or intangibility isn't really the point, the idea is that non-physical beings can just arbitrarily make themselves even more non-physical on a whim, so rejecting NEP solely on the basis of "it doesn't make sense for incorporeal beings to just become more incorporeal" ignores that this is already a factor within Touhou regardless of whether or not NEP is a thing.

 

[ÆONS]

Well, I read through everything and some of the responses and it all still checks out IMO.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

We should, at least in my opinion, focus on deciding on whether or not truth is type 2 information as well as whether or not Gensokyo entirely lacks it; Everything else is kinda based on those two points. Like I mentioned before, if the lack of truth is accepted, we can just slap NEP on every already incorporeal character without much need for further debate.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Not sure if you agree or disagree with non-existence. Anyways, I don't understand the first part. What relevance does Bleach have to the proposals here?

Bleach are all technically souls for real world yada yada but they function like they are physical beings thus some abilities relying on souls are limited like regeneration and such. Hopefully it doesnt happen the same with touhou.

Whether it's incorporeality X 2 or intangibility isn't really the point, the idea is that non-physical beings can just arbitrarily make themselves even more non-physical on a whim, so rejecting NEP solely on the basis of "it doesn't make sense for incorporeal beings to just become more incorporeal" ignores that this is already a factor within Touhou regardless of whether or not NEP is a thing.

I havent agreed nor disagreed with things yet as for neo and is looking more into it.but the part where. He can do this by this ability

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ah, okay. So in that case, it's a matter of how everything in Gensokyo would be essentially non-existent if this goes through. Everybody is on the same 'level' of existence so to speak, so they can interact with each other just fine. And even then, characters can easily interact with Junko, whose non-existence is beyond that of regular non-existence, so this may also just be a matter of everyone having busted NPI, like they've pretty much always had.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Bump

 

[WanderingGecko]

Neutral. And sorry if this is out of topic, but where do u start the touhou series and in what chronological order ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

There isn't really a defined starting point, you can kinda start wherever. If you really wanna go in chronological order, you could start with the games (Embodiment of Scarlet Devil onwards), or if you wanna start with the manga, I recommend starting with Wild and Horned Hermit or Forbidden Scrollery.

Really though, just pick an arbitrary starting point and go from there. That's what I did, at least.

 

[OverlordDonnelly]

Neutral. And sorry if this is out of topic, but where do u start the touhou series and in what chronological order ?

If you just want to dip your toes in the series as a game series, start wherever. Same goes for if you want to get into some of the lore. Though in that case, the novels or manga would work better I'd argue.

If you're deep diving into chronological lore from its "beginning", than starting with Touhou 6 is the way to go.