Well, that's over with, I think. I'll keep it in reserve until a staff member responds, or if a few weeks go by and we still get nothing (as is usually the case with Touhou threads).
I'll talk it out with them
No, but it's shown that that's the case. You claimed that truth = history, right? That obviously means that affecting one affects the other, but that is directly contradicted several times over. Your claims still need to work within the framework of what happens in the world and narrative, and when history remains unaltered after truth is altered, that just isn't the case.
Do you have a source for this? Or is it just "it works this way because I think it should"? At no point do we ever see history affected by the manipulation of truth. That's all there is to it, and until you provide ample evidence of that being the case (especially with so many anti-feats working against you here), I have no reason to take this 'truth = history' stuff seriously.
You need to explain why history is being changed. You can make all the claims you want, but what you're saying is directly contradicted in the text. Compare this to something like the space/time connections, where we have ample evidence of the two being connected via examples like Sakuya's time manipulation passively warping the space of the SDM or Kaguya's eternity manipulation letting her create infinite space-time. But the supposed truth/history connection? Literally 0 ******* examples, even in cases where there should be examples. You can't just shrug off these contradictions by saying 'but I explained why they're the same thing', because you need to also explain why these massive anti-feats are somehow invalid.
That's a very bold claim, and a quick search on the wiki for 'Sagume + history' gave me 0 canon results, so I'm gonna need a source for that.
Maybe because there aren't really contradictions at all? But I don't care. I'll not go into that combo once more until someone else says "Well I agree with Mokou" or "Well I agree with Hecatia."
D- Sis, literally this is what her profile states:
That's literally one of the most clear examples of causality manipulation. So yes, she's changing history through changing truth.
Should the gods have type 2 information manipulation too?
No, you really can't say something is the same as something else, yet have one be unaffected while one changes after being manipulated. If they're the same, they should behave the same under identical circumstances, which obviously isn't the case here.
That's uh. not what the text says? Where does it mention her changing truth? Like yeah, she does do that in ULiL/AFiEU, but that's a distinctly separate use of her causality manipulation. When she uses it in LoLK, there is no manipulation of truth going on; It's just causality manip. So she can manipulate truth and manipulate history, but the two are still treated as separate from one another and are just two different powers. Like we have no less than 5 examples (another one being Keine manipulating history in IN, which is never shown or stated to have affected truth) of this being the case, we cannot ******* accept truth being the same as history when literally every single example of them being manipulated in canon treats them as separate.
Just advocate harder
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So first things first, we know that the non-existence here is literal despite what Hecatia says. To argue that this is a matter of perspective from the outside world would be to argue that this is not erasing people from existence, but rather just moving them to another world, which from an outside perspective would seem to be as if the person or thing in question had just disappeared from reality. Problem is, the specific nuance of what kanji are being used here disproves that notion. There are a few sets of kanji used to indicate the term ‘existence’ in Japanese, but for our purposes we’ll be looking at 存在, as this is what’s present in most scans related to existence and non-existence.
This next scan is being heavily misinterpreted. What Miko and Byakuren are saying is not “youkai are born from human imagination, so they’re non-existent”. Miko’s exact quote is “it is natural that some youkai were meant to be fictitious exist”. Byakuren goes on to state “I see. As a youkai whose non-existence is obvious, right?”.Take for example this scan (which was also cut by Mokou in her last summary). Miko is talking about how Youkai are born from human imagination, and then Byakuren says that, due to this, their "nonexistence" is obvious. I think everyone here has enough reading comprehension to understand that, in this context, this isn't providing NEP of any type, but instead, it just talk about how Youkai are mostly abstract entities born from imagination and human thoughts, hence why they are "nonexistent" in this context.
Mokou can counterattack by saying that Gensokyo as a whole works like an illusion or that the beings there are illusionary beings, but again, this isn't to be taken literal, as they are illusionary in the sense of Gensokyo being the "reverse" place of the Outside World, where everything that cannot stay in can enter there.
No, no, no, god no. First of all, literally nothing about the layer’s descriptions correlate with physicality or incorporeality. It’s just “the laws of physics” and “magic and some other stuff”. Neither of those give any indication about where physical or non-physical entities supposedly reside. In fact, using the two as a physical/non-physical dichotomy is ******* stupid anyways, because quantum particles (which according to you, would be physical due to falling under the physical layer) are described as formless (ie; non-physical), while the mental layer also encompasses magic, which itself can manifest as physical phenomenon (creating pillars of ice or rock, for example). Non-physical things can exist on the physical layer, and physical things can exist on the mental layer. This whole argument is just… why…
None of what you just said disproves my point. They can interact with souls because those souls still exist, unlike various other aspects of the characters in question, which don’t exist. I’m not giving them type 1 NEP, after all. Also where are you getting the idea that the Animal Realm leaders can create physical forms? I genuinely don’t remember that from any part of WBaWC.
Yeah uh… Where the **** are you getting the idea that lifeblood is some metaphysical energy and not, y’know, ******* blood? I’ve checked various definitions for lifeblood and the kanji used for it (生き血) and every time it’s. Just blood. Since you’ve admitted that this is a good point, I’m hoping that this will help convince you on the physicality stuff. So yes, physical characteristics can paradoxically be present within non-physical entities in Touhou canon.
You do not understand what information is on this wiki. There are two types; Knowledge, and Fundamental. When I say Gensokyo lacks information, I mean Fundamental information; That which alters the very nature of reality itself. Much of what you listed is Knowledge; Chimata, for example. The ‘information’ present within the objects listed is not fundamental in any sense, but since it correlates with the memory of who owned and bought it, we can pretty clearly see how this correlates with information as knowledge. In fact, the information page explains that information present within objects falls within the confines of type 1, not type 2, so everything related to Chimata is undeniably type 1 and has 0 relation to any of my arguments.
1). No, that’s not what ‘close but no cigar’ means. It means ‘you've got the right idea, but you’re still wrong’. So Eiki is still saying that Aya is incorrect. And as I mentioned before, Aya manipulating truth is hard contradicted by the events of AFiEU. It was specifically Sagume’s plan to use her power to make what Aya wrote into truth, so if Aya could just control truth on her own… Why the **** was Sagume’s power even necessary? Not to mention that at literally no ******* point in time does Bunbunmaru ever alter reality.
Alright, well first off, the phantom thing is NOT the entire basis of the incorporeality argument. There are other statements in Dr. Latency that I brought up, like physical form being meaningless in Gensokyo (which isn’t unique to youkai, given that it’s a generalization about the world itself AND Maribel has met humans like Mokou and Sakuya within Gensokyo before) and how a youkai cat that ended up in the outside world could phase through objects. And like I mentioned before, so long as the lack of information is accepted, we can still give already-incorporeal characters NEP, while physical characters would just get immunity to information manipulation.
