Yhwach and Ichibei Downgrade

[AppleLord]

Gwynbleiddd

He couldn't used the X-Axis (Hax) until Yhwach revived him. When using the X-Axis Lille doesn't fire anything, he used a normal quincy arrow to destroy the city's.

Quote from the wiki:

"Heilig Pfeil (þÑ×Þüûµ╗àþƒó (ÒâÅÒéñÒâ¬ÒââÒâÆÒâ╗ÒâùÒâòÒéíÒéñÒâ½), Hairihhi Pufairu; German for "Holy Arrow", Japanese for "Sacred Destruction Arrows"): Lille can fire bullet-shaped Heilig Pfeil from his rifle. They are powerful enough to destroy the cities surrounding the Soul King Palace with a single shot each.[50]Kirio Hikifune notes that they possess such power due to being composed of highly compressed Reishi.[51] However, they can still be split and deflected if cut by a sufficiently sharp blade."

"The X-Axis (õ©çþë®Þ▓½ÚÇÜ (Òé©Òâ╗ÒéñÒé»ÒéÁÒé»ÒéÀÒé╣), Ji Ikusakushisu; Japanese for "Piercing Everything"): Lille's rifle can pierce anything he fires at with perfect accuracy. When Lille fires, the rifle does not release a bullet; rather, it simply pierces everything between the muzzle and the target, leaving its power unable to be blocked by any barriers as a result.[38]"

He uses his Riffle Diagram for both things.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Doesn't the Mountain level calculation come from Lille Barro destroying the replicas of the Royal Guard's cities?

That calc was redone and the results are lower.

I guess it would be better to scale people off of Hitsugaya's City level+ feat? A lot of people after the time-skip would scale to that. So would a lot of people before the time-skip actually.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Gwynbleiddd makes sense.

Btw: Are you planning to start your Bleach revision within the near future?

 

[AppleLord]

I think that Gwynbleiddd makes sense.

Except for this:

"Also Lille is one of the worst people to start scaling other to, since his powers are hax"

100% Wrong.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

1.Yamamoto was praised to be the Shinigami with the greatest attack power, in terms of the actual story there is no way fullbring bankai Ichigo could match him.

2.@AppleLord

This doesn't matter anymore since his holy arrow is only Small City level.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

This doesn't matter anymore since his holy arrow is only Small City level.

Question: Does Lille still get scaled to City level+ now?

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

1.Yamamoto was praised to be the Shinigami with the greatest attack power, in terms of the actual story there is no way fullbring bankai Ichigo could match him.

2.@AppleLord

This doesn't matter anymore since his holy arrow is only Small City level.

Well, your calc didn't get accepted yet, so its still not "official" yet

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I'm unsure about the powerscaling regarding Toshiro's feat.

He was training his bankai for 2 years and he had already shown himself stronger than some pretty tough opponents.

One of Mayuri's zombies was able to hold his own against zombie Bambietta and zombie Toshiro just casually defeated the guy while in base.

So i want to hear LordAizen's and KuuIchigo's opinions on this.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Well, your calc didn't get accepted yet, so its still not "official" yet

He's a reputed calc member and LordAizenSama, the resident Bleach expert, seemed to have no issues with it. Besides, Lille would likely get scaled to City level+ anyway now so that calc means nothing (albeit I'm waiting for confirmation on this).

 

[Soldier_Blue]

I was thinking that it would scale to Bazz-B, current Renji, probably current Rukia, the senior captains, Urahara, Yoruichi, Lille, Pernida, Askin, Ichigo and Byakuya before Royal Guard training, probably Zaraki as well, and some others.

But I'll wait and see what LordAizenSama and KuuIchigo have to say.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I was thinking that the senior captains and the Royal Guard members should scale to him.

And from these guys the people that have directly fought them, like Lille and Zaraki.

Askin and Pernida's powers are hax that negate durability so they don't scale.

Ichigo and Byakuya before training have no direct reason to scale to trained bankai Toshiro.

Bazz-B was stronger than Shikai Toshiro and claimed to have offset Yamamoto's shikai flames (though due to mainly Yama going easy on them and his powers being fire based which is Bazz-B's power)

Rukia and Renji have no reason to powerscale.

Urahara may powerscale since he fought Aizen who should be at least on senior captain level.Yoruichi needed external help but she would probably get scaled to that too.

 

[AppleLord]

Should't Hitsugaya's city feat be a lifting feat and not related to AP or DC?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Askin managed to severely wound Yoruichi and I think Urahara as well with normal Heilig Pfeil. So he would likely be City level+ as well. And being one of the elite Sternritter, he'd of course be at least on the level of the likes of Robert Accutrone, who managed to injure Kyoraku.

 

[SilentBob34]

@Gwynbleiddd

Why would Ichigo and Byakuya not powerscale to Toshiro?

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Should't Hitsugaya's city feat be a lifting feat and not related to AP or DC?

I think he stopped a falling city and the KE was calc'ed at that level. It means his ice attacks can take and also generate that kind of KE. So it does translate to AP.

 

[AppleLord]

Nice.

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask LordAizenSama and KuuIchigo to comment here.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Gwynbleiddd It doesn't matter if it was stated that Yamamoto's Zanpakuto had the most AP. Ichigo is a relatively new Shingami in the first place and it's implied and shown that he is superior to Yamamoto. It isn't up for debate.

Ichigo had his and Yamamoto's reiatsu + many others, in Shikai state.

So, it's confirmed he has more reiatsu than Yamamoto.

Even after Yamamoto died, the Shingami still pinned their hopes in Ichigo.

Ichigo damaged Yhwach and parried his attack, while probably fatigued. Yhwach was even forced to use his full power.

Shikai Yamamoto was blocked by Royd, who is fodder to Yhwach. Yamamoto also used Bankai against him, which he wouldn't have done if he could beat Royd easily. Royd isn't the twin who copies powers, BTW.

I see no reason for the RG members not to somewhat scale to Yhwach/Ichibe based on the reasons I have already presented.

Pretty sure the Elites should scale above Gremmy or at least above Royd with Blut. There are no reasons that suggest otherwise.

I see no reason for Top Tier Captains like Byakuya and Kenpachi not to scale to Toshiro. Bazz-B clearly scales.

 

[LordAizenSama]

I will give my thoughts to this thread in a bit. Just a bit busy right now

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Having a small part of someones reiatsu =/= being stronger than the person who gave it to you.

So no it is not confirmed that he has more reiatsu than Yamamoto.

Yamamoto's bankai is High 6-C to Low 6-B, while his shikai is 7-B.So blocking his shikai isn't something that impressive.

Of course he was going to use bankai, apart from nerd boners, he though he was facing an extreme danger.

The entire point of Ichigo is his potential, potential to become extremely powerful.And by the end of the series he becomes a top tier.

Also Quilge was able to fight bankai Ichigo so i guess

Aizen >> Ichibe > elite sternritter, Gremmy and Zaraki > rest of the Royal guard > fullbring Bankai Ichigo >= Quilge > Yhwach> Yamamoto > regular Sternritter >= regular captains

 

[AppleLord]

Honestly, Bankai Ichigo stomp Quilge so bad he needed a power boost, and even with it, Ichigo wasn't even serious againts him.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Hmm wait, Ginjo fought on par with Ichigo for a while. If this goes through, wouldn't that mean Ginjo can tango with Yamamoto (well assuming he doesn't get haxxed out) and destroy the senior captains (again, assuming Shunsui doesn't fodderize with hax)?

 

[SilentBob34]

I wouldn't say Ginjo was on par with Ichigo. It seemed more like Ichigo prolonged the fight to see what Ginjo's true intentions were and once he understood he ended the fight in like 2 strikes

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Still, the difference between Small Country level and City level is pretty big and I'm not sure how much Ichigo was holding back. If Ichigo is upgraded, should Ginjo be too?

 

[SilentBob34]

Well I'm not against it I just find his scaling to be a bit weird.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

If Ginjo gets upgraded, it comes back to the matter of whether he's really capable of destroying the senior captains.

 

[AppleLord]

Ginjo did stole Ichigo's completed Fullbring, which Ginjo said to be an enhanced fusion of his old shinigami powers (I don't believe he is talking about Dangai Ichigo, but more like when he fought Gin) and his Fullbring, making it stronger, makes sense as Ichigo manage his own againts Tsukishima, who almost killed Byakuya in Bankai if it wasn't for PIS.

On top of what he stole from Ichigo, he had his own fullbring, and Hollow powers.

 

[Davidsteel1]

Wait wait, so let me make sure I understand what's being suggested here. Some of u r saying that Fullbring bankai Ichigo> Yamamoto's Bankai????

 

[AppleLord]

^ Eh, no.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Apple oh, that was the impression I got from reading Piercer's posts. Good thing I asked for clarification then

 

[AppleLord]

@Apple oh, that was the impression I got from reading Piercer's posts. Good thing I asked for clarification then

Well, he is the only one here with that impression.

 

[LordAizenSama]

So im kind of lost as to what the things that need addressing are now. Can someone bullet-point it for me?

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@Gwynbleiddd

He should have most of his reiatsu.

Eiether way, he still damaged Yhwach, blocked his assault and forced him to use his full power.

Yamamoto's Bankai got stolen. Yhwach handles that power casually.

It's not the rating but the fact that Yamamoto's Shikai was blocked.

His Bankai risks destroying SS. He would be able to sense Royd's power as well. He went Bankai because he needed to.

That doesn't change the fact he has proven to be above Yamamoto before EOS.

Quilge got bullied by Bankai Ichigo. He only lasted against Shikai Ichigo.

Nah. RG>everyone except Ichibe and Yhwach. Quilge matched Shikai Ichigo with no difficulty but was bullied by Bankai Ichigo.

Ichibe>Yhwach>=Royal Guard>Kenpachi>Elites>Gremy>Ichigo>=Ginjo>Yamamoto>Quilge>Royd.

 

[Piercer_of_Heaven]

@LordAizenSama

Well, it's the Tiers and scaling of:

- Fullbring Bankai Ichigo

- Royal Guard

- Elite Sternritter

- Post Timeskip Bankai Toshiro

And whoever they may affect.

 

[LordAizenSama]

FB Bankai Ichigo can get the "at least likely higher" via scaling from hitsuguya until someone has a better idea what to do with it.

Also Ginjo doesn't scale to Ichigo either. Ichigo stomped him

Royal guards I'd just leave where they are, or just make them unknown.

Elite sternritter? I dunno, I think i'd do as Kk said and scale them from toshiro if its needed.

On that topic though, if you're powerscaling to pre-timeskip take note that hitsuguya trained (albeit it amounts to nada) so the only ones that scale would be the top tiers of the pre time skip (senior captains,Isshin, Gin,Yoruichi with anti-hierro armor,Urahara,Aizen and his forms, etc)

 

[KuuIchigo]

Wouldn't everyone scale since Cang Du could steal Hitsugaya's Bankai and control it? Pretty sure everyone > him.

IIRC, Yhwach sorta explained how the medallion worked that you needed to be able to handle the power of the stolen bankai.

Not sure about Ginjo. Maybe he could get an "at most" or something?

The royal guards were said to be > the gotei 13 so perhaps "unknown", possibly whatever rating Kenpachi is.

Elite Sternritters are kinda hard since they are mostly haxed but they should be above Hitsugaya and Cang Du (if the reasoning is accepted).

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, if I remember correctly, the Royal Guard got taken down easily by Post Auswahlen Lille but Shunsui was keeping up with him and was able to outmaneuver him in Shikai before he entered Vollstandig. So maybe the Royal Guard members aren't really that much superior to the senior captains? I'm talking about the members apart from Ichibē and maybe Nimaiya since he took almost all of Yhwach's elites down easily.

 

[KuuIchigo]

They all got caught off-guard by the revival. Oetsu was one-shotting them. I don't remember if the assholen gave them extra buffs or just allowed them to use their original powers.

I don't see any reason why this statement saying that they are above the Gotei 13 is being denied when Fairy Tail had the same thing (well, not really the same thing, but that one statement of the Spriggans being comparable to each other when it clearly not the case but I won't get into that) and it was accepted.

Also the fact that Shunsui said it as he should be the most knowlegeable about them seeing as how he was around back then.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Okay, that makes sense. I thought the senior captains (*cough* Shunsui *cough*) could be upgraded based on that, haha.

 

[Soldier_Blue]

Okay, that makes sense. I thought the senior captains (*cough* Shunsui *cough*) could be upgraded based on that, haha.

Wasn't it stated that Ukitake possessed far more reiatsu than even current Kenpachi Zaraki? Then... You see where I'm going with this?