Why do people believe Dangai Ichigo is Stronger than True Shikai Ichigo?

[AppleLord]

According to Yhwach, Ichigo regained the elevated power that he used to defeat God Aizen.

Arguments:

• Yhwach was talking about Ichigo regaining his Shinigami powers.

• Current Ichigo doesn't have Transcendent reiatsu and therefore can't be more powerful, because transcendent is more powerful.

• Kenpachi destroying a meteor isn't proof that none transcendent are stronger than transcendent because there was never a meteor in Dangai Ichigo's pass and therefore we don't know if he would had failed to destroy it.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Its quite simple really, my dear Apple. People are idiots and only pay attention to DC and ignore AP.

 

[AppleLord]

I was hoping for a more in detail discussion about this subject.

 

[Abd2u]

According to yhwach,his Statment doesn't matter And i believe in feats

 

[AnonymousBlank]

^What did I say? XD

Not an idiot but he still went with what I thought people would do.

 

[AppleLord]

@Abd2u you believe statement don't matter? Hmm. How can we be sure if a "technique" or "ability" is true when statements don't matter? Since statements don't matter having Transcendent reiatsu doesn't make you stronger than none-transcendent with higher physical power. Kenpachi is physically stronger than Dangai Ichigo without transcendent reiatsu providing more evidence that been "Transcendent" doesn't mean you're more powerful than none transcendent.

 

[Abd2u]

So,you mean that ichigo "tru shikai" Has the same reiatsu that aizen wasn't able to feel?any thing to support that?no Even yourichi,inoe,uryu,chado,rukia,renji,byakuya..etc Was able to sense his reiatsu..so lol Assauming he is as strong as his battle against aizen is dumb asf

 

[Abd2u]

Zaraki reiatsu in bankai is much bigger than dangai

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Dude ... read what Apple typed. "As strong" not "same reiatsu". His whole point with Kenny is that non Transcendant can be as strong or stronger than Transcendant.

 

[Abd2u]

And i didn't mean that all Statments doesn't matter..

 

[Abd2u]

If u gonna use all Statments then aizen is 4d and madara is universal

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Aizen's statements on dimensions were about Reiatsu mechanics.

Madara said he could smash all things in the universe, not the universe itself.

 

[Abd2u]

So,madara can smash all things in the universe but not the universe it self

And ichigo "by aizen Statment" Stands in a deminsion higher than he in

Yammy is the strongest espada

Goku waves were shoking the omniverses

Yhwach is omnipotent and omniscient

Let's use all statements yeah let's use it

 

[AppleLord]

So,you mean that ichigo "tru shikai" Has the same reiatsu that aizen wasn't able to feel?any thing to support that?no
Even yourichi,inoe,uryu,chado,rukia,renji,byakuya..etc Was able to sense his reiatsu..so lol Assauming he is as strong as his battle against aizen is dumb asf

My point is that:

• Not been able to sense someone's reitasu, doesn't mean you can't be stronger than them.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So,madara can smash all things in the universe but not the universe it self
And ichigo "by aizen Statment" Stands in a deminsion higher than he in

Yammy is the strongest espada

Goku waves were shoking the omniverses

Yhwach is omnipotent and omniscient

Let's use all statements yeah let's use it

Its like you are ignoring logic.

Madara has been shown to not destroy everything so that statement is irrelevant.

Aizen was talking about reiatsu mechanics not actual dimensions

Yammy said the Cero Espada is the strongest, not that he is. Read the Bleach Novels and you will know that Cien is the actual Cero Espada and is equal to the Zangetsu that stomped Ulq. I dunno about you but Zangetsu is well above the other Espada bar Cien.

The fact that you said omniverses already invalidates this. Omni means all, ie all the universes/multiverses/other kinds of verses.

Yhwach was beaten (clearly not omnipotent) and did not know everything (clearly not omniscient).

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

"Byakuya, Yoruichi, Toshiro, Orihime, Uryu, Kenpachi, Ishida can sense him therefore he's weaker"

You do know everyone got stronger, Aizen states once he transforms that Ichigo is a transcendent however now Aizen doesn't consider him as one in that form, it's only when Ichigo goes Mugetsu that Aizen notes that Ichigo ascended to another level.

I'm pretty sure that means that God Aizen can sense Dangai Ichigo after Aizen transforms and becomes stronger, or you're gonna say that Ichigo got weaker ?

 

[HST_Master]

So,madara can smash all things in the universe but not the universe it self

And ichigo "by aizen Statment" Stands in a deminsion higher than he in

Yammy is the strongest espada

Goku waves were shoking the omniverses

Yhwach is omnipotent and omniscient

Let's use all statements yeah let's use it

Have you never heard of a little something called Case-By-Case Basis?

 

[Tarkatower]

Dude was either talking about his Shinigami powers in general or his full power......only conclusions that makes sense when true shikai's feats and portrayal have been massively underwhelmingly in comparison.

 

[JBennett]

I was always under the impression that Aizen couldn't sense Dangai Ichigo's Reiatsu because it was a mixture of all three of his reiatsu; Shinigami, Hallow, and Quincy rather then a case of Ichigo being way stronger then him. Aizen even compares it to a 2D person unable to sense a 3D person, since Aizen at that time was both Shinigami and Hallow so natrually he would be using both.

I know it wasn't stated but that's the impression I got from that.

 

[AppleLord]

Dude was either talking about his Shinigami powers in general or his full power......only conclusions that makes sense when true shikai's feats and portrayal have been massively underwhelmingly in comparison.

There's two problems with that analysis.

• Yhwach already saw Ichigo with his Shinigami powers prior to this scene and fought him. Is very story breaking to mention he got his Shinigami powers back now when he didn't said it earlier. He also mentioned the "elevated" power he gained.

• Ichigo's full power > Dangai Ichigo who according to Zangetsu is a fraction of his real power. Zangetsu told Ichigo that he had been fighting all this time with a fraction of his true power.

 

[Tarkatower]

• Yhwach already saw Ichigo with his Shinigami powers prior to this scene and fought him. Is very story breaking to mention he got his Shinigami powers back now when he didn't said it earlier.

I mean if you look at the context of the whole chapter, Yhwach was explaining the purpose of Ichigo's progression and not simply commenting on the fact that he regained his Shinigami powers. It doesn't break the story at all.

> He also mentioned the "elevated" power he gained.

This is the only thing that confuses me, but I'd say there are two different contexts here. He was speaking about Ichigo losing his Shinigami powers in general fromThe power Ichigo lost from defeating Aizen was his shinigami powers in general rather that elevated power specifically. Yhwach wouldn't have been there to see the Ichigo vs Aizen fight nor would he have known how strong either of them would be anyway.

>Ichigo's full power > Dangai Ichigo who according to Zangetsu is a fraction of his real power. Zangetsu told Ichigo that he had been fighting all this time with a fraction of his true power.

i don't doubt True Bankai > Incomplete FGT Bankai, but that doesn't mean True Shikai is on that level when like I said, nothing about him comes close to matching Dangai Ichigo. Unless you think average Sternritters are Chrysalis Aizen-level or something. It's not even about transcendent reiatsu although that does serve as counter-evidence.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

To be honest the average Sternritter (If not the majority) is around the captain level and they need Bankai to beat them. And the Average Captain is around the High Level Espada level (Aka Unohana, Shunsui, Ukitake, Byakuya, Toshiro, Kenpachi, Shinji, probably Soi Fon and I guess Komamura)

So they are not Condom Aizen level but almost close

 

[AppleLord]

I mean if you look at the context of the whole chapter, Yhwach was explaining the purpose of Ichigo's progression and not simply commenting on the fact that he regained his Shinigami powers. It doesn't break the story at all. But he already saw Ichigo regain his shinigami powers before this confrontation making it a dumb mentioned.

> He also mentioned the "elevated" power he gained.

This is the only thing that confuses me, but I'd say there are two different contexts here. He was speaking about Ichigo losing his Shinigami powers in general fromThe power Ichigo lost from defeating Aizen was his shinigami powers in general rather that elevated power specifically.

Where does "elevated" power fits in this?

Yhwach wouldn't have been there to see the Ichigo vs Aizen fight nor would he have known how strong either of them would be anyway.

Yhwach saw how he would defeat Ichibei when he had the Almighty a 1,000 years ago.

Before activating Almighty. After unlocking almighty.

>Ichigo's full power > Dangai Ichigo who according to Zangetsu is a fraction of his real power. Zangetsu told Ichigo that he had been fighting all this time with a fraction of his true power.

i don't doubt True Bankai > Incomplete FGT Bankai, but that doesn't mean True Shikai is on that level when like I said, nothing about him comes close to matching Dangai Ichigo.

Nothing about Dangai Ichigo comes close to matching Shikai Kenpachi feats.

Unless you think average Sternritters are Chrysalis Aizen-level or something. It's not even about transcendent reiatsu although that does serve as counter-evidence.

Transcendent Reiatsu wouldn't matter. If they are just stronger in context. Frieza doesn't have God Ki but can still fight SSB Goku.

 

[Tarkatower]

> But he already saw Ichigo regain his shinigami powers before this confrontation making it a dumb mentioned.

It's not. I'm not even sure why it would be. I think if you understand the context of the whole scene, there is literally no possible problem with it. Yhwach had little time to talk with Ichigo in their prior confrontation and they weren't in the Palace where their conflict progressed to the point whenYhwach could explain to him why he had been dancing in his palm the entire time.

> Where does "elevated" power fits in this?

The elevated power is subpar phrasing. The correct meaning is this:

-All of Ichigo's battles served to increase his Shinigami power
-The accumulation of his Shinigami power was used for the ultimate purpose of defeating Aize
-Ichigo reclaimed that Shinigami power whose purpose was to beat Aizen from Ginjo.
-All so it can serve as an end purpose to kill the Soul King

based on Ginjo being in the panel, Yhwach is saying that the power used to defeat Aizen was reclaimed during Ginjo's time. Do you think Fullbring arc Ichigo = Dangai Ichigo as well?

> Nothing about Dangai Ichigo comes close to matching Shikai Kenpachi feats.

Yes he does. Let me know the last time Zaraki vaporized a mountain from any distance away with a casual parry against another transcendent's blade. Let me know when Zaraki speedblitzes that transcendent with ridiculous ease. Let me know when Zaraki no-sells nukes from a transcendent. The problem with True Shikai Ichigo is that he has far less to compete with Dangai Ichigo than Dangai Ichigo does with Shikai Zaraki (according to you).

 

[AppleLord]

• That would be the case, if we ignore what OMZ said about Ichigo using but a fraction of his true power prior to getting both zangetsus.

• Who really knows, powerscaling in anime works like nuclear bombs. The sun is bigger, but a nuclear bomb is stronger than the sun. Post-timeskip Renji mentioned he trained to fight someone the level of Aizen. Unohana told Kenpachi that he had rivals to fight after his training, and the author draw in the background Post-timeskip Renji, Post-timeskip Byakuya, Post-timeskip Fullbring Shinigami Ichigo, and Base Yhwach. There's also Tsukishima been able to force Post-timeskip Byakuya to use his Bankai, and if it wasn't for his ego Tsukishima would had beat Bankai Byakuya.

• The vaporization of a small mountain from a single sword swing of Ichigo's bankai is nothing compare to the sword swing of a Shikai Kenpachi. That meteor was x20 of times bigger than the mountains around Seireitei.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Also the shinigami from the 11th squad apparently couldn't sense Kenpachi coming if I recall one of the panels, one of them said something along the lines of "Wait when did Captain Zaraki arrived ?" Or something I don't remember it that much

 

[AppleLord]

Also the shinigami from the 11th squad apparently couldn't sense Kenpachi coming if I recall one of the panels, one of them said something along the lines of "Wait when did Captain Zaraki arrived ?" Or something I don't remember it that much

Here.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Ok so they couldn't sense before but now they can, that's actually weird, why didn't they sense him before ?

 

[AppleLord]

Ok so they couldn't sense before but now they can, that's actually weird, why didn't they sense him before ?

Aizen lowered his reiatsu so Ichigo's friends could sense him.

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

So if Kenpachi is a transcendent as well then that explains it