Wendy vs Kaido (Little girl takes on a Yonko)

[LordGinSama]

His 6C feat is way above her 6C via multipliers, her AP multipliers aren't even enough to an one shot, and again she has barely no ways to defeat Kaido, allowing him to use his 6C clouds is giving more weapons to someone who can win even without them, so if her Dragon Force (which is a 2x-4x amp as well) is restricted i don't understand why a 30+ GTs power is being allowed.

Both are 6-C, she's can amp to 6-C, amp her speed and has dura negation. Kaido can't really do any of those things, now if you want to make this strictly tier 7 and remove both 6-C abilities I'm fine with that.

Zoro is damaging Kaido without that, so the scabbards are doing the same as Zoro but weaker, i also don't remember any moment in their battle that seemed to be some strange type of damage or attack, they used either piercing or slicing moves and were able to bypass his scales, just not enough to do meaningful damage. Zoro > Scabbards > Scales > Killer

First of all, Zoro isn't apart of the Scabbards and he's doing his damage via Enma. You know this at this point so why are you attempting to misconstrue what's actually going on? They literally stabbed into him and used Ryou all together on their first attack on Kaido.

It matters, you used his feat against the scabbards as a way to counter Wendy's super senses, but if we don't have feats for their senses and/or haki then Kaido's feat against them is mostly useless.

No, it actually doesn't matter. We don't need individual feats for their Kenbunshoku Haki as they can be scaled bare minimum to Rudimentary levels of Kenbunshoku Haki, which grants ESP and crazy good enhanced senses. Once again, as an advent One Piece fan you should be aware of the Haki Page. Bare minimum they'd still be scaling above the likes of Usopp when he first awakened the ability. Something isn't useless simply because you lack the proper reading comprehension or knowledge.

Also, my bad for derailing a bit.

 

[XDragnoir]

Because.
Kaido can make as many 6-C clouds as he wants and it won't harm Wendy, it's just a second line of defense.

a line of defense she has nearly no way to bypass even if she has her 8x multiplier from Enchants+Dragon Force, and Kaido can win even without the clouds.

A regular 2x amp on Wendy plus Durability negation on dragons plus resisting his wind based attacks (half his arsenal) is worse than a stomp.

Currently she has all of that and is losing, but she isn't losing solely because of the clouds.

 

[XDragnoir]

Both are 6-C, she's can amp to 6-C, amp her speed and has dura negation. Kaido can't really do any of those things, now if you want to make this strictly tier 7 and remove both 6-C abilities I'm fine with that.

Yep, i think restricting her AP amps as well is fine, do her speed amps need to be restricted as well tho? Iirc a 4x speed gap is too much but if she has a 2x speed it wouldn't be a problem.

First of all, Zoro isn't apart of the Scabbards and he's doing his damage via Enma. You know this at this point so why are you attempting to misconstrue what's actually going on? They literally stabbed into him and used Ryou all together on their first attack on Kaido.

I saw many different opinions about Enma, so idk.

That's the point, they can stab him, as you said they pierced Kaido's flesh, that isn't a form of dura neg since ryou/haki is a physical form of damage, their ryou needed to pierce his scales before doing internal damage (and we don't know if it did internal damage at all), they can't send it directly inside like Luffy does.

No, it actually doesn't matter. We don't need individual feats for their Kenbunshoku Haki as they can be scaled bare minimum to Rudimentary levels of Kenbunshoku Haki, which grants ESP and crazy good enhanced senses. Once again, as an advent One Piece fan you should be aware of the Haki Page. Bare minimum they'd still be scaling above the likes of Usopp when he first awakened the ability. Something isn't useless simply because you lack the proper reading comprehension or knowledge.

You should also know that a revision to the page was being planned, because (from Rayleigh's explanation in 597) Observation and Armament are just a general name to the common types of haki, two users at the rudimentary level of proficiency in a same category can have different powers, there is nothing saying that instantly upon awakening haki your senses or your understanding of people will be raised, both (and probably more) things can happen but it isn't a default thing, without any info we can't say any of those is the case of a specific character.

 

[LordGinSama]

Yep, i think restricting her AP amps as well is fine, do her speed amps need to be restricted as well tho? Iirc a 4x speed gap is too much but if she has a 2x speed it wouldn't be a problem.

That's fair if you wanna suggest that to Mitch.

I saw many different opinions about Enma, so idk.

There isn't a lot of interpretations that you can take with that? It's quite literally Emna doing the work but Zoro is the one who regulates it. Regardless of the viewpoint comparing Zoro to The Scabbards is downright fallacious.

That's the point, they can stab him, as you said they pierced Kaido's flesh, that isn't a form of dura neg since ryou/haki is a physical form of damage, their ryou needed to pierce his scales before doing internal damage (and we don't know if it did internal damage at all), they can't send it directly inside like Luffy does.

Keyword, directly. Goken can bypass the out layer and inject Haki without damaging the outer layer. Ryou works on a same principle but the users of Ryou need to damage the out layer first before they can inject Haki into the foe. It's still durability negation due to the insides being targeted.

You should also know that a revision to the page was being planned

Citation? This is the first time I've heard about this.

, because (from Rayleigh's explanation in 597) Observation and Armament are just a general name to the common types of haki, two users at the rudimentary level of proficiency in a same type can have different powers, there is nothing saying that instantly upon awakening haki your senses or your understanding of people will be raised, both (and probably more) things can happen but it isn't a default thing, without any info we can't say any of those is the case of a specific character.

This literally makes no sense in the slightest. Two Rudimentary Haki users would only be capable of the same feats, as those are the only abilities granted by Kenbunshoku at that level. Again, these are the bare basics that Kenbunshoku Haki offers, and no two Kenbunshoku Haki users that are on the same level don't posses different abilities, the only way that would happen is if you had a Mid Tier and a High Tier going at it, due to Kenbunshoku granting different abilities at different levels.




The claim that The Scabbards aren't capable of performing basic applications from Kenbunshoku Haki, despite there being a minimum to what they'd scale to is absolutely asinine and a desperate attempt to downplay these characters, while also ignoring the mechanics of the verse. None of what you said is true.

 

[KingTempest]

Kin'emon had the top half of his body from the waist up removed and he could run around and fight Brook with only his torso using Observation Haki to sense where he was. Using CoO with his TORSO.

Who's trying to convince me that the Scabbards can't do basic applications of Kenbunshoku?

 

[XDragnoir]

Kin'emon had the top half of his body from the waist up removed and he could run around and fight Brook with only his torso using Observation Haki to sense where he was. Using CoO with his TORSO.

Who's trying to convince me that the Scabbards can't do basic applications of Kenbunshoku?

Never tried, i asked for feats and Gin refused to provide, thanks Tempest.

Citation? This is the first time I've heard about this.

It was being planned before the forum move, iirc JoyBoy (or someone else famous in the community) made a "evolution tree" where everything was placed as non-related things at the start instead of only having ramifications at higher levels. I remember Ant and Damage being interested, you can ask them if you want.

None of what you said is true.

At Marineford Luffy already had some predictions from his observation haki, Usopp upon awakening got aura vision and a increase to his sight range but lacks both prediction as well as "area sensing" (i think area sensing is a weaker version of predictions but i can be wrong), very different powers but they are basically at the same level, then we have Zoro who is above Usopp in Observation iirc but does not have aura nor increased sight.

And please read 597, pages 12-13.

 

[LordGinSama]

Never tried, i asked for feats and Gin refused to provide, thanks Tempest.

Irrelevant but whatever.

It was being planned before the forum move, iirc JoyBoy (or someone else famous in the community) made a "evolution tree" where everything was placed as non-related things at the start instead of only having ramifications at higher levels. I remember Ant and Damage being interested, you can ask them if you want.

Joy boy as far as I'm aware isn't any authority in the verse. Why would we use a non canon skill tree? Lol.

At Marineford Luffy already had some predictions from his observation haki, Usopp upon awakening got aura vision and a increase to his sight range bur lacks both prediction as well as "area sensing" (i think area sensing is a weaker version of predictions but i can be wrong),

Which the page notes, that these are abilities granted at Rudimentary levels of Haki. Ussop lacks the prediction aspect due to it just awakening, along with him not utilizing it for long. Luffy has already slight precognition even in Marineford, along with several indications Kenbunshoku Haki being used pre time skip. Area sensing? What area sensing?

very different powers but they are basically at the same level, then we have Zoro who is above Usopp in Observation iirc but does not have aura nor increased sight.

Zoro has both of those things, so again that's incorrect. He used Aura sensing to locate Pica in his Stone body and used increased sight to see Pica from a distance, so both of these faulty notions are wrong. aura sensing and increased eyesight. So again your dead wrong there as well.

And please read 597, pages 12-13.

Already have, I've read One Piece in its entirety so don't try to act as if I'm not caught up. Rayleigh describes Kenbunshoku Haki as the ability to sense, locate and read the numbers and movements of the opponent, Busoshoku Haki is described as attacking weak points and being a counter to Devil Fruit abilities. So again. Rayleighs statement in no way supports your argument, your just reaching for anything at this point.

 

[KingTempest]

Never tried, i asked for feats and Gin refused to provide, thanks Tempest.

My bad, and no problem.

It was being planned before the forum move, iirc JoyBoy (or someone else famous in the community) made a "evolution tree" where everything was placed as non-related things at the start instead of only having ramifications at higher levels. I remember Ant and Damage being interested, you can ask them if you want.

At Marineford Luffy already had some predictions from his observation haki, Usopp upon awakening got aura vision and a increase to his sight range but lacks both prediction as well as "area sensing" (i think area sensing is a weaker version of predictions but i can be wrong), very different powers but they are basically at the same level, then we have Zoro who is above Usopp in Observation iirc but does not have aura nor increased sight.

Usopp and Zoro both have Increased Sight and Aura

 

[XDragnoir]

stuff

I would classify both as area sensing rather than aura or eyesight, which as Gin said Zoro used against Pica anyway.

Joy boy as far as I'm aware isn't any authority in the verse. Why would we use a non canon skill tree? Lol.

Never said they would copy it or that his skill tree was absolutely correct, i said a revision was being planned and the skill tree was one of the reasons, again, ask Damage or Ant if you want.

Which the page notes, that these are abilities granted at Rudimentary levels of Haki. Ussop lacks the prediction aspect due to it just awakening, along with him not utilizing it for long. Luffy has already slight precognition even in Marineford, along with several indications Kenbunshoku Haki being used pre time skip. Area sensing? What area sensing?

Now i want to see the version you are reading, because i see no mention to rudimentary or initial or any mention to proficiency levels here. So you are saying pre-TS Luffy has better haki than Usopp? Okay, proof? Because i don't remember the level of eyesight and aura vision Usopp hs upon awakening being displayed by Luffy pre-TS. Area sensing is how i call what they did in the pictures Tempest sent.

Already have, I've read One Piece in its entirety so don't try to act as if I'm not caught up. Rayleigh describes Kenbunshoku Haki as the ability to sense, locate and read the numbers and movements of the opponent, Busoshoku Haki is described as attacking weak points and being a counter to Devil Fruit abilities. So again. Rayleighs statement in no way supports your argument, your just reaching for anything at this point.

Okay so either your version has less pages (that seems to be the case, page 12 to me is 10 to you) or there is a massive difference in translations:

https://**************/***********/mangas/597//12.jpg
Bottom Left panel: "Pay attention... the common haki can be classified in two categories" and this quote does totally support my point, since there is no mention to proficiency levels it means the different powers under observation aren't classified by rudimentary or initial or whatever, aura vision is aura vision and you can just have it or be a master of it, but there is no "level 3 haki" that grants all powers from the lower levels (aura, eysight, precog, etc) so we need proof a character has trained something to accept he can use that and not just "lol they are strong and this is a basic use, they obviously have it".

Also, i never said you didn't read, know or understand something so don't act like if i did, if you had provided the exact same feat Tempest found this discussion would have ended 6 posts ago.

 

[LordGinSama]

This dude really wants to use non official Brazilian translation to support his argument KEK.

 

[XDragnoir]

you can read the same page in english and you will find pretty much the same quote

 

[LordGinSama]

I would classify both as area sensing rather than aura or eyesight, which as Gin said Zoro used against Pica anyway.

Never said they would copy it or that his skill tree was absolutely correct, i said a revision was being planned and the skill tree was one of the reasons, again, ask Damage or Ant if you want.

Then this is irrelevant, as we're talking about what's currently accepted, end of story. Don't like it? Go make a CRT.

Now i want to see the version you are reading, because i see no mention to rudimentary or initial or any mention to proficiency levels here.

Haki

vsbattles.fandom.com

Read, I'd suggest actually doing your research before you wanna attempt to debate.

So you are saying pre-TS Luffy has better haki than Usopp? Okay, proof?

Not what I'm saying first of all, comparing Luffy to Ussop is like comparing a orange to a tomatoe. First, Luffy excels in combat while Ussop does not. Not only that but Rudimentary Level of Haki only grant random brief promotions, unlike Luffy Ussop was never placed in such a situation.

Because i don't remember the level of eyesight and aura vision Usopp hs upon awakening being displayed by Luffy pre-TS. Area sensing is how i call what they did in the pictures Tempest sent.

Area sensing makes no sense but whatever, unfortunately for you we aren't going to call it something it isn't. That's aura sensing, clear and cut. Going by Rayleigh's own statement, Kenbunshoku allows for the reading of presence (being aura.) reading the numbers, movement and so on and so forth via Kenbunshoku Haki. Literally theres no other ability it could be.

Okay so either your version has less pages (that seems to be the case, page 12 to me is 10 to you) or there is a massive difference in translations:

Most likely the latter, as I'm working with offical translations where are you aren't.

https://**************/***********/mangas/597//12.jpg
Bottom Left panel: "Pay attention... the common haki can be classified in two categories" and this quote does totally support my point,

No it doesn't, that's literally just Rayleigh saying theres two different forms of Haki, that being Kenbunshoku and Busoshoku Haki. Nothing more, nothing less. I'm not sure what your even getting from the statement considering it's just Rayleigh telling us about the three types of Haki which are known to exist.

since there is no mention to proficiency levels it means the different powers under observation aren't classified by rudimentary or initial or whatever,

Again is this either you lying through your lips or you failing to comprehend basic English language. Rayleigh simply states that there are two forms of common Haki, Kenbunshoku Haki and Busoshoku Haki, not that there aren't different levels of proficiency. Do you even know what proficiency means? Like seriously?


The fact that Kenbunshoku haki needs to he trained to gain certain abilities such as Future Sight is proof that it works on a system of proficiency.

aura vision is aura vision and you can just have it or be a master of it, but there is no "level 3 haki" that grants all powers from the lower levels (aura, eysight, precog, etc)

There absolutely is, again hence why people choose to either train their Kenbunshoku Haki (to gain more potent abilities.) or train their Busoshoku Haki to gain Goken, etc. To say that Kenbunshoku doesn't have tiers is both asinine and tells me a lot about your general understanding of the verse. Because right now, you are insinuating that Ussop and co can get Future sight without training for it.

so we need proof a character has trained something to accept he can use that and not just "lol they are strong and this is a basic use, they obviously have it".

No, actually we don't. Both the Haki page itself and the manga disagree with you. Stop acting like your headcanon is law, because it isn't.

Also, i never said you didn't read, know or understand something so don't act like if i did, if you had provided the exact same feat Tempest found this discussion would have ended 6 posts ago.

I'm not required to spoon feed you information, if you wanted it you could have very easily found it given that I found it in less than 2 minutes. So let's not even go there, thank you.

 

[LordGinSama]

you can read the same page in english and you will find pretty much the same quote

Doesn't matter, its Rayleigh stating there are two types of common Haki, not that Kenbunshoku doesn't have any proficiency progression, which it objectively does.


You really need to quit this needless scrutiny you do with the verse, you simply argue for the sake of arguing despite them being wrong in nature. I understand playing Devils Advocate but this is just sad.

 

[KingTempest]

Spoiler

If we say CoO doesn't have proficiency progression, then Luffy who got random glimps at the war is the same Luffy who could tell other people 400 chapters later exactly where bullets would land.

Can someone quickly explain to me what this has to do w/ Kaido and Wendy? I'm assuming it's that his attacks > Wendy's sensing capabilities.

Kaido blitzed someone who could see into the future w/out elemental attacks, that should say a lot.

 

[LordGinSama]

Spoiler

If we say CoO doesn't have proficiency progression, then Luffy who got random glimps at the war is the same Luffy who could tell other people 400 chapters later exactly where bullets would land.

Can someone quickly explain to me what this has to do w/ Kaido and Wendy? I'm assuming it's that his attacks > Wendy's sensing capabilities.

Kaido blitzed someone who could see into the future w/out elemental attacks, that should say a lot.

Basically yes, due to Kaido's attacks being difficult for characters with better senses having difficulty dodging his attacks that Wendy with her inferior senses would have more trouble dodging them.



Yeah also Luffy could barely dodge them despite his future sight.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Kaido blitzed someone who could see into the future w/out elemental attacks, that should say a lot.

If you're talking about his first fight with Luffy, that was only because Luffy was enraged and couldn't use Future Sight. Which is why he was able to dodge more effectively on the roof, being more calm and all.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah y'all are gonna have to convince me that Wendy can see 5 seconds into the future before I change my vote

 

[KingTempest]

If you're talking about his first fight with Luffy, that was only because Luffy was enraged and couldn't use Future Sight. Which is why he was able to dodge more effectively on the roof, being more calm and all.

Referring to the second fight with Luffy when Luffy said he used Future Sight and still got sidesmacked by Thunder Bagua

 

[LordGinSama]

Yeah y'all are gonna have to convince me that Wendy can see 5 seconds into the future before I change my vote

Or her having anywhere as good of senses as even Pre Time-Skip Luffy and Zoro without the aid of Kenbunshoku Haki.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Referring to the second fight with Luffy when Luffy said he used Future Sight and still got sidesmacked by Thunder Bagua

Yeah, that works then.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I just want to point out that the 6-C Feat Kaido has is being a bit overhyped

Kaido's Flame Clouds have the ability to make things float and grant flight to whatever they are used on, it works very similarly to Uraraka's Quirk from MHA, the Flame Clouds don't scale to any of his actual stats, theoretically he could make an Onigashima sized rock move and drop it on Wendy, but he hasn't shown using his Flame Clouds offensively yet, he made Onigashima fly, but he hasn't actually used that offensively, just saying

 

[AnonymousBlank]

If peeps really wanna start arguing ED that is x7-x8 baseline 6-C will do anything to Wendy, we can just give Wendy DF and she oneshots Kaido.

 

[LordGinSama]

I just want to point out that the 6-C Feat Kaido has is being a bit overhyped

Kaido's Flame Clouds have the ability to make things float and grant flight to whatever they are used on, it works very similarly to Uraraka's Quirk from MHA, the Flame Clouds don't scale to any of his actual stats, theoretically he could make an Onigashima sized rock move and drop it on Wendy, but he hasn't shown using his Flame Clouds offensively yet, he made Onigashima fly, but he hasn't actually used that offensively, just saying

Not quite, he's already making it fly towards Wano at high speeds, so dropping it certainly isnt out of the equation.


He can also utilize them to actually move around and such in case he gets trapped.

 

[LordGinSama]

If peeps really wanna start arguing ED that is x7-x8 baseline 6-C will do anything to Wendy, we can just give Wendy DF and she oneshots Kaido.

I'm more than fine with restricting this to High 7-A for both combatants. Kaido's 6-C doesn't scale directly to him, Wendy's actually does so it should be fair game.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

So restrict the Cloud stuff and DF? Fine by me.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Cloud Stuff and DF are restricted, have fun

 

[Eminiteable]

If his flame clouds are restricted does that mean he can no longer use flight or is he just restricted from using it offensively?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

If his flame clouds are restricted does that mean he can no longer use flight or is he just restricted from using it offensively?

He can't use it like how he used it to lift Onigashima, so he can't lift and drop a giant rock on Wendy via Flame Clouds, besides he has never done that anyways

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Since I didn't even factor in the Flame Clouds into my initial vote, well, I'm still team Kaido FRA.

 

[Delta3000]

Looking at the arguments so far I vote for kaido. His stamina is a big problem for Wendy mostly because she doesn't use her air eating ability as much as she should in character.

 

[SamanPatou]

Bump, it should be nice to end this, regardless of the result (I'm personally unsure about who to vote, though :v)

 

[StrawHatArslan]

oh my god. I vote kaido lmao.