Waking up from the Dream (2-B Mario Downgrades)

[MicDaniel]

You're saying that this CAN be the case, but it obviously isn't always. The landscapes Luigi dreams of are often notably different than their real-world counterparts, so if anything Luigi's dreams should disprove dream duplicates being a thing.

It doesn't matter if it isnt always the Case, it happens consistently enough to make sense. Also those weren't Luigi's dreams, those were pillo people's dream who through out the game are shown dreaming of the same environment as well, which further proves my point that Dreams can duplicate or Mimic other Dreams.

To me it sounds like they're sharing the same dream, rather than having two separate but identical dreams (which we know to be possible because of Dreamspots).

Except they didn't use a dreamspot though. It was just fountain water that puts people to sleep.

You've provided no evidence for this beyond "we can see a recreation of a single real world location in a dream, which means every instance of a dream is in fact a perfect duplicate of itself". Like, that's such a massive reach I'm almost tempted to call it derailing.

When did i say it was a perfect duplicate though? If anything I've stated it doesn't have to be 1-1 just similar. A duplicate or mimic doesn't have to be an exact copy. Anyways, if Dreams can Mimic other environments or Use the memory of the dreamer to shape the Dream, then that would be the more likely case to why we see more then one future dream in the depot during the credits.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Ngl this debate is kinda pointless because we quite literally see the Mario Party cast in all 3 instances of Future Dream in the end. Canonically, they only experienced that dream once, so it'd make no sense for 3 separate instances of Future Dream to have the Mario Party cast within them. It's clearly meant to be showing us the single dream where the canon events of the game took place, and not various duplicates.

 

[MicDaniel]

Ngl this debate is kinda pointless because we quite literally see the Mario Party cast in all 3 instances of Future Dream in the end. Canonically, they only experienced that dream once, so it'd make no sense for 3 separate instances of Future Dream to have the Mario Party cast within them. It's clearly meant to be showing us the single dream where the canon events of the game took place, and not various duplicates.

According to the Game booklet they were invited to have a Mario party in the dream depot and then there's Storymode. So there are 2 instances where the cast have gone to the dream Depot and had the chance to experience future dream. There are about 10 different characters who would've seen Future Dream.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

According to the Game booklet they were invited to have a Mario party in the dream depot and then there's Storymode. So there are 2 instances where the cast have gone to the dream Depot and had the chance to experience future dream. There are about 10 different characters who would've seen Future Dream.

I mean, that's still less than 3 instances, so my point still stands. Even then, the manual outright says this is how the story starts, so it's just tied into story mode.

 

[MicDaniel]

I mean, that's still less than 3 instances, so my point still stands. Even then, the manual outright says this is how the story starts, so it's just tied into story mode.

2 instances but 10 different characters that have experienced Future dream. When story mode happens doesn't really matter because a Mario party still took place either way.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

2 instances but 10 different characters that have experienced Future dream. When story mode happens doesn't really matter because a Mario party still took place either way.

They're all in the same dream though, because it's a multiplayer game...

Also, the first party didn't even take place. Mario was invited, and it was said that that's what led into the story.

 

[MicDaniel]

They're all in the same dream though, because it's a multiplayer game...

Also, the first party didn't even take place. Mario was invited, and it was said that that's what led into the story.

This conversation is why are there 3 instances of Future Dream in the credits. Multiple sources show that Dreams can Mimic one another. Another source shows that two people can have the same dream then theres that multiple people can dream about the Same environment. There's evidence that shows dreams are formed and Shaped by Memories. With this being the case, Those instances of Future Dream are the cast dreams mimicking Future Dream due to them experiencing said dream as opposed to future Dream being split into Chunks.

Mario and his "Friends" were invited for a Mario party. This Means story mode is not said Mario Party.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I think for now giving Antasma, The Dream Stone, the Dark Stone, and Dreamy Bowser a flat "at least 3C" rating works. We have more than enough staff and user agreement for such a thing.

So far most people have and I believe all staff have agreed with the removal of 2B Dream Depot with the exception of DDM, who said they wanted to debate some things but haven't come back yet. But we currently have enough staff agreement to pass through regardless I believe?

2B Dream Depot being lost would result in The Void, Chaos Heart wielders (Super Dimentio & Count Bleck) and Pure Hearts wielders (Paper Mario, Peach and Bowser) being bumped down a tier, resulting in them all getting 2C ratings for the time being, and we can do a thread about the Void stuff possibly being H3A/L2C instead later? I think having a post solely dedicated to the Void and covering it in full detail is what would be necessary to come to any conclusions about it honestly, because otherwise it'll likely drag this CRT into the mud like it did the LAST 2B downgrade CRT.

Not to mention, this thread is currently holding up another major Mario revision with splitting Paper Mario and Mainline Mario otherwise, so I'm fine with making a compromise and doing more general stat changes for this so that continuity/cosmology split thread can go through. We can debate the Void being 2C or lower in another thread, and if anyone wants to cover anything else for the Dream Stones later, that would be fine.

This is a pretty major cosmology takedown, so if a blog covering things needs to be made, I wouldn't be against doing that.

Best to just wait for final mod confirmations really.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yeah, I'd be fine with applying the accepted edits now, especially since I don't know what MicDaniel is talking about anymore. I'm not sure if we need to wait for mod confirmations, though?

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Been watching the OP and reading the arguments above, I also in agreement for now.

 

[MicDaniel]

Yeah, I'd be fine with applying the accepted edits now, especially since I don't know what MicDaniel is talking about anymore. I'm not sure if we need to wait for mod confirmations, though?

To simplify what I'm saying, your suggesting the Multiple Future Dreams we see in the end credits are splits and Chunks and dream sizes should be downscaled because of this. What I'm suggesting is that those are individual dreams formed by the cast themselves and not just Chunks of other dreams.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I know what your point is. The evidence you are using to defend that point, however, has become increasingly nonsensical. Like, Mario and his friends being invited over for a party somehow means this isn't related to story mode? Despite the manual literally saying it's how the story starts? What are you talking about?

 

[MicDaniel]

But I didn't say that though. My argument is that Dreams can Mimic one another and even shape themselves based on a person subconscious and memory as seen and explained in dreamteam. With that being the case, Why can't those instance of Future Dream be that?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

But I didn't say that though. My argument is that Dreams can Mimic one another and even shape themselves based on a person subconscious and memory as seen and explained in dreamteam. With that being the case, Why can't those instance of Future Dream be that?

You literally did say that.

Mario and his "Friends" were invited for a Mario party. This Means story mode is not said Mario Party.

Anyways, I'm not gonna debate this endlessly. Later today I'll apply the accepted downgrades.

 

[MicDaniel]

Fine.
Thank you for hearing me out at least.

 

[Withersoul_235]

I'm in favour of everything proposed (Dream Stone + Void/SPM).

 

[Starsprite53]

Neutral for dream team stuff, leading to agreeing
but for mario party 5:
We see the orbs are in a constant movement and there are transition between scenes(fade in,fade out effect) so this honestly just means orbs are reshowing again as simple as that,nothing shows, implies or indicates that they are spliting, and this kind of argument requires good evidence tbh, also no this is not what the dream depot stores here is why:
bowser when he arrived to dream depot he said this:

"So this is Dream Depot....a world created from everybody's dreams..."
and then he started going from a dream (such as pirate dream) to a another, and nothing is said about "the splitted dreams" or anything related, meaning the dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than the fragments
Adding on that Misstar already calling them the dream worlds:

All of that mean that dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than its fragments (idk where that conclusion even came from)
Also Future dream is already stated to be infinite in size so its fragments would be infinite anyways(Also infinite obviously refers to space, the dream world is literally space)

 

[Starsprite53]

I will take care of SPM stuff later but i'm sure Executor, Meph and DDM gave counter arguments to these same exact arguments in that thread so idk why are we repeating that (and "beyond space itslelf" is vague asf, woah zone is just a space graveyard)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I will take care of SPM stuff later but i'm sure Executor, Meph and DDM gave counter arguments to these same exact arguments in that thread so idk why are we repeating that (and "beyond space itslelf" is vague asf, woah zone is just a space graveyard)

Well for starters, just because they gave counterarguments doesn't mean those points were accepted. Last I checked, the thread was mostly agreed upon but just died due to a lack of activity, so I'm just trying to apply what should've been accepted months ago.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Neutral for dream team stuff, leading to agreeing
but for mario party 5:
We see the orbs are in a constant movement and there are transition between scenes(fade in,fade out effect) so this honestly just means orbs are reshowing again as simple as that,nothing shows, implies or indicates that they are spliting, and this kind of argument requires good evidence tbh, also no this is not what the dream depot stores here is why:

Except it's a different scene every time? If you show me a painting, and then show me another painting 5 minutes later that looks completely different from the first one, then the reasonable conclusion is that they're different paintings. Also, we can see thousands of orbs in that scene, so it seems odd to assume that it's just the same 5 orbs in quick succession.

bowser when he arrived to dream depot he said this:

"So this is Dream Depot....a world created from everybody's dreams..."
and then he started going from a dream (such as pirate dream) to a another, and nothing is said about "the splitted dreams" or anything related, meaning the dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than the fragments
Adding on that Misstar already calling them the dream worlds:

All of that mean that dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than its fragments (idk where that conclusion even came from)

I mean, if you destroy all the individual pieces of something, then you would destroy the entirety of that thing by extension. This stuff doesn't really lean one way or another.

Also Future dream is already stated to be infinite in size so its fragments would be infinite anyways(Also infinite obviously refers to space, the dream world is literally space)

It can also be a measure of time. Just because it takes place in space doesn't mean every mention of infinity or endlessness inherently relates to spatial extent. Also, the wording of "Getting Stoked on such an infinite dream!" makes me kinda doubt the accuracy of the translation, probably because it isn't even a full sentence.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Well for starters, just because they gave counterarguments doesn't mean those points were accepted. Last I checked, the thread was mostly agreed upon but just died due to a lack of activity, so I'm just trying to apply what should've been accepted months ago.

To be frank, Dream Stone downgrades were accepted literally over a year ago and they only didn't go through because THAT thread got stalled, delayed, then died to inactivity,

Neutral for dream team stuff, leading to agreeing
but for mario party 5:
We see the orbs are in a constant movement and there are transition between scenes(fade in,fade out effect) so this honestly just means orbs are reshowing again as simple as that,nothing shows, implies or indicates that they are spliting, and this kind of argument requires good evidence tbh, also no this is not what the dream depot stores here is why:
bowser when he arrived to dream depot he said this:

"So this is Dream Depot....a world created from everybody's dreams..."
and then he started going from a dream (such as pirate dream) to a another, and nothing is said about "the splitted dreams" or anything related, meaning the dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than the fragments
Adding on that Misstar already calling them the dream worlds:

All of that mean that dream depot stores the actual dreams rather than its fragments (idk where that conclusion even came from)
Also Future dream is already stated to be infinite in size so its fragments would be infinite anyways(Also infinite obviously refers to space, the dream world is literally space)

I've seen Future Dream translated as "endless", which doesn't explicitly mean infinite in spatial size, it could just mean that the dream is endless in terms of time, it goes on forever.

And to be flat out, the replication idea just straight up does not make sense. Future Dream is explicitly the dream of the very universe itself, hence its universal size. No other dream ever in the series is shown to be anywhere remotely close to universal in size visually or through statements. The dream of the universe somehow being magically replicated in the Dream Depot by other characters just doesn't apply or make sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am still working on my refutes just a heads up.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Alright, I can wait in that case. Once you post them, can you @ some staff so they can look at all the points and give their thoughts?

 

[Starsprite53]

Sorry for the late reply, my studying always makes me busy

Except it's a different scene every time? If you show me a painting, and then show me another painting 5 minutes later that looks completely different from the first one, then the reasonable conclusion is that they're different paintings. Also, we can see thousands of orbs in that scene, so it seems odd to assume that it's just the same 5 orbs in quick succession.

False analogy, the orbs shows the same dreams, not different ones, Again the orbs are in a rapidly constant circular movement, unlike the paintings that are immobile and perhaps seperated in different rooms
Also it's not odd to assume that, because those are literally the only 5 dreams you travel in the game.

I mean, if you destroy all the individual pieces of something, then you would destroy the entirety of that thing by extension. This stuff doesn't really lean one way or another.

That's not true and irrelevant to my point, which is that when they went to dream depot, we see it countains the actual dreams, bowser and the cast went to the actual dreams, and going on by your logic the so-called split only happened after the story, but the split doesn't make anysense anyways because the actual dream is already a dream world inside the dream depot

It can also be a measure of time. Just because it takes place in space doesn't mean every mention of infinity or endlessness inherently relates to spatial extent. Also, the wording of "Getting Stoked on such an infinite dream!" makes me kinda doubt the accuracy of the translation, probably because it isn't even a full sentence.

The "Just because" argument doesn't work if you don't have enough evidence and elaboration that says otherwise, we have enough context to say that infinite impliess to space, what else besides space could beelderstar talking about if we are IN space?

I've seen Future Dream translated as "endless", which doesn't explicitly mean infinite in spatial size, it could just mean that the dream is endless in terms of time, it goes on forever.

The same kanji can also mean infinite and boundless which relate to size, and i'm sure a human translation translated it as infinite is enough for that, not sure why keeping insisting on time while the whole thing takes place in space, the burden of proof is on you to prove the opposite

And to be flat out, the replication idea just straight up does not make sense. Future Dream is explicitly the dream of the very universe itself, hence its universal size. No other dream ever in the series is shown to be anywhere remotely close to universal in size visually or through statements. The dream of the universe somehow being magically replicated in the Dream Depot by other characters just doesn't apply or make sense.

I mean, there are other dream worlds that are called universe despite them not being about space or anything such as subcon, or dream worlds referred as dimensions in dream team (espacially since they all have celestial bodies and such),
A̶l̶s̶o̶, p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ o̶u̶t̶ w̶h̶a̶t̶ j̶j̶s̶l̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ s̶a̶i̶d̶, i̶'m̶ s̶u̶r̶e̶ m̶a̶g̶i̶n̶a̶r̶y̶w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶ h̶a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ s̶a̶m̶e̶ e̶x̶a̶c̶t̶ p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ b̶u̶t̶ n̶o̶ o̶n̶e̶ e̶v̶e̶r̶ t̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ a̶r̶g̶u̶e̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶, s̶u̶d̶d̶e̶n̶l̶y̶ d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ i̶t̶ t̶o̶ d̶r̶e̶a̶m̶ d̶e̶p̶o̶t̶ i̶s̶ b̶e̶y̶o̶n̶d̶ m̶e̶

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

)
A̶l̶s̶o̶, p̶o̶i̶n̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ o̶u̶t̶ w̶h̶a̶t̶ j̶j̶s̶l̶i̶d̶e̶r̶ s̶a̶i̶d̶, i̶'m̶ s̶u̶r̶e̶ m̶a̶g̶i̶n̶a̶r̶y̶w̶o̶r̶l̶d̶ h̶a̶s̶ t̶h̶e̶ s̶a̶m̶e̶ e̶x̶a̶c̶t̶ p̶r̶o̶b̶l̶e̶m̶ b̶u̶t̶ n̶o̶ o̶n̶e̶ e̶v̶e̶r̶ t̶r̶i̶e̶d̶ t̶o̶ a̶r̶g̶u̶e̶ t̶h̶a̶t̶, s̶u̶d̶d̶e̶n̶l̶y̶ d̶o̶i̶n̶g̶ i̶t̶ t̶o̶ d̶r̶e̶a̶m̶ d̶e̶p̶o̶t̶ i̶s̶ b̶e̶y̶o̶n̶d̶ m̶e̶

Go make your own thread against Maginaryworld then. If it’s valid it’ll pass. I haven’t looked deep into Maginaryworld stuff yet. I’m more familiar with Mario’s Dream Arguments. Not sure why whenever Mario gets downgraded for something, completely unprompted, every other verse with a slightly similar idea has to be dragged into the equation. Everything starts from somewhere.

I’ll look over the rest of these points more later, I only had time for responding to that in particular.

 

[Starsprite53]

Go make your own thread against Maginaryworld then. If it’s valid it’ll pass. I haven’t looked deep into Maginaryworld stuff yet. I’m more familiar with Mario’s Dream Arguments. Not sure why whenever Mario gets downgraded for something, completely unprompted, every other verse with a slightly similar idea has to be dragged into the equation. Everything starts from somewhere.

Why are you telling me to do that when i'm not against the argument? also i'm sure that isn't a mario only thing because i saw in other threads same case(iirc someone recently mentioned megaman in a sonic calc thread)

I’ll look over the rest of these points more later, I only had time for responding to that in particular.

take your time amigo

 

[Omegabronic]

Why are you telling me to do that when i'm not against the argument? also i'm sure that isn't a mario only thing because i saw in other threads same case(iirc someone recently mentioned megaman in a sonic calc thread)

He is telling you this because any other verse is irrelevant, use the logic behind it if you are going to use it as an example or drop it

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Following

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am in more agreement with StarSprite's take here regarding Dream Depot, but I recommend avoid using whataboutisms for other verses.

 

[AStrangeverse]

bump

 

[ShakeResounding]

(iirc someone recently mentioned megaman in a sonic calc thread)

That was on a topic regarding the use of calculations to get multipliers and is just ripping something straight out of context, so how about we not do that?

That being said, I'll wait for DDM's response before committing to an agreement or disagreement with OP. Leaning towards disagreeing FRA tho.

 

[JJSliderman]

I think no matter what Dream Stone still has no reason to be scaled to the Depot.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

At the end of the day I'm not sure how important the Dream Depot downgrade even is, since the Dream Stone doesn't scale to it and the Void doesn't either... Even ignoring the latter's range issue, it had no indication of ever affecting something outside the book Paper Mario is contained it.

 

[Starsprite53]

I never scaled the dream stone to deam depot to begin with

 

[JJSliderman]

At the end of the day I'm not sure how important the Dream Depot downgrade even is, since the Dream Stone doesn't scale to it and the Void doesn't either... Even ignoring the latter's range issue, it had no indication of ever affecting something outside the book Paper Mario is contained it.

The Galaxy black hole may scale to it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The Galaxy black hole may scale to it.

??? How

 

[JJSliderman]

What I meant was the universe reset at the end of Galaxy in general, it affected all the space in the main Mario universe which includes Dream Depot.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Aside from the fact that I don't think anyone scales to that, there's also no evidence it affected the entire cosmology and not just the one universe it was in.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dream Depot is located within the main Mario verse, it’s described as “in the night sky, beyond the moon and past the stars”.

Also Rosalina’s barriers would potentially scale via being able to shield characters from it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dream Depot is located within the main Mario verse, it’s described as “in the night sky, beyond the moon and past the stars”.

...uh oh