Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

[RashFaustinho]

Well, I'm simply opposed to any kind of power level, multiplier or anything similar.

It's inconsistent, it's unreliable, it should not be taken in consideration in any circumstances.

Dragon Ball characters are already scaling via univeral feats, or via more general "X is stronger than Y". That's all there should be to it.

The power level / multipliers nonsense should stay out of the tiering system, and gods should remain Low 2-C. That's what I think.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Remember guys being 2x stronger than a borderline low 2-C should make you 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is borderline.

 

[Giygas3]

@Zamasu Chan No, being 2x stronger than a borderline Low 2-C will not grant you 2-C. The only reason this is different is because their feat is 2-C, so them individually would be unquantifiable high in the Low 2-C range - To where someone a few times stronger then them would be 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

That's how it's being treated though. Beerus being low 2-C + 5-D axis x 2 is being treated as 2-C.

 

[AKM sama]

That's how it's being treated though. Beerus being low 2-C + 5-D axis x 2 is being treated as 2-C.

No. Did you follow the thread? Beerus+Champa having a 2-C feat is being treated as 2-C.

 

[Giygas3]

Yes, because of the feat itself making them unquantifiablly high in the Low 2-C range. This not the same thing as saying Borderline Low 2-C * 2 = 2-C.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That's what he literally just said AKM.

Two Low 2-Cs clashing across a 5-D axis equates to a 2-C feat. So somebody 2x one of them would, thus, be 2-C.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

If we're gonna take this route then tier 2 as a whole should be revised.

 

[AKM sama]

That's what he literally just said AKM.
Two Low 2-Cs clashing across a 5-D axis equates to a 2-C feat. So somebody 2x one of them would, thus, be 2-C.

That isn't the same thing as saying 2*borderline Low 2-C = 2-C in a general sense, as no amount of multiplier is enough to reach 2-C without performing or scaling to a feat.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I mean Zamasu was basically infecting 2 universes my guy :/

 

[Andytrenom]

So basically the situation is,

Two characters combine their power halfway between the sun and the next nearest star and blow them up both simultaneously. Due to halving the feat both characters are individually 4-B but someone twice as strong as them would be 4-A, which isn't the same as saying someone two times above baseline 4-B is 4-A

Is that it?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

If we're gonna take this route then tier 2 as a whole should be revised.

I agree with this, wholeheartedly, after how this thread ended up.

And as for those who oppose a 2-C upgrade, your also opposing the idea that the universes in DBS are in their separate space-times as I previously mentioned. Just pointing out what you are basically siding with here.

 

[Giygas3]

@Andy Something along those lines, yes.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Andy since 2-C is low 2-C 2x + a 5D axis multiplying that by 2 equals 2 universes plus 2x the 5D axis you already have. Since IZ is already a universe and is part of a 5D axis, multiplying that by 2 will give you 2 universes and the 5D axis, therefore it's 2-C plain and simple.

 

[AKM sama]

@Andy

Not entirely because the difference between 4-B and 4-A is quantifiable and can be reached by multipliers. The characters didn't combine their powers halfway and they are not 4-B because of halving the feat.

The situation is more like:

Two characters don't have any feat of destroying 2 universes on their own, which is the minimum for baseline 2-C. Hence they're not 2-C. But they are already Low 2-C due to a previous feat and scaling after that.

The combined powers of both characters is able to perform a baseline 2-C feat, i.e. destroying 2 universes, but not from halfway. They were only inside one of them.

So anyone who can take on their combined forces and above should be 2-C as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with AKM Sama

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I see, so anyone who scales to being capable of handling Beerus and Champa's combined power would be 2-C now? That would indicate all of the Angels should be 2-C now and that Gogeta could scale to likely 2-C.

Out of curiosity, is the gap between 2-C and 2-B considered infinite, just as it is for Low 2-C and 2-C? Or would anyone scaling to over 1000x 2-C be 2-B?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I got 50x from Broly compared to Gogeta. If the gap was any smaller then Broly would've just adapted. All we know is that Broly is either > ssj Gogeta or > ssg Gogeta.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't use Saiyan Multipliers though.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

That is true. Broly could breach an infinite gap with Vegeta and Goku in just a few minutes of fighting, whereas he couldn't do a damned thing to casual Gogeta, who was effortlessly crushing Broly.

You could argue NLF but Frieza was already capable of judging that Broly had the potential to take on Vegeta and, despite witnessing Gogeta, judged Broly as a worthy partner against Goku and Vegeta. So I think there is some argument that Frieza has judged Broly as capable of surpassing Gogeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

We don't use Saiyan Multipliers though.

We don't use Super Saiyan 2 or 3 but Super Saiyan has been accepted as being a 40-50x multiplier and most staff members I've debated with have agreed that Super Saiyan Blue should be treated as SS x SSG due to Goku explaining Blue as Super Saiyan God + Super Saiyan. Kaio-Ken multipliers are also accepted, for future reference.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Super Saiyan was only that much stronger the first time. It's also the reason no one becomes Massively FTL+ until Super. Every other instance, all SSJ multipliers become inconsistent; sometimes, going SSJ is more than 50x other times it's a much smaller multiplier. Broly and Kefla have the strangest cases; in Kefla's cases SSJ1 to SSJ2 is 3-A to Low 2-C jump. And Broly is 3-A in base and Low 2-C in SSJ.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

This is the thread that argued the multipliers.

You should probably make a thread regarding this, after this one is concluded. I definitely find it strange that Goku is only FTL+ when Super Saiyan has been accepted with its multiplier.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Broly had Ikari slapped on to ssj.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I should note that there is no sense to Super Saiyan not being over 20x Base. If this were the case, it would arise the question of why Goku doesn't use Kaio-Ken X20, which would be stronger and (based on Super) is something he can learn to use with minimal strain.

So any argument claiming Super Saiyan is less than 20x is absurdist in nature.

 

[Akreious]

Broly and Kefla are known "That's BS" Characters who just explode in power randomly, so I wouldn't use standard super saiyan metrics for them.

When has the Super Saiyan form been inconsistent with 40-50x boost? Like, what scenario? Never from what I recall

 

[ProudLearner]

Well the Ikari form should be 10x since he is using the Ozaru power which jump him from 3-A to Low-2C

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Absolutely no instance of Super Saiyan being inconsistent in multiplier to be found, in my memory, either.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

So what is the consensus here?

Are we keeping the dicussion rule as its and downgrading the verse's cosmology or is everyone fine with removing it, accepting the space-times of U6 and U7 being destroyed, and applying a 2-C upgrade instead?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

It seems the majority is starting to agree with upgrading anyone who scales to 2x Beerus as 2-C. That's the impression I am getting from the several or so people that have expressed agreement.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What would the ratings be for the GoDs?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'm pretty sure most of the GoDs would stay Low 2-C. I'm not sure on Beerus and Champa. They are either the strongest Low 2-Cs in terms of raw AP or are 2-C, maybe.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Either way Gogeta, the Angels, and GP should be 2-C.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

What does the staff that particiapated here accept?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Out of curiosity, is the gap between 2-C and 2-B considered infinite, just as it is for Low 2-C and 2-C? Or would anyone scaling to over 1000x 2-C be 2-B?

This is also why 2-C to 2-A should be revised.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What does the staff that particiapated here accept?

I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Akreious]

Out of curiosity, is the gap between 2-C and 2-B considered infinite, just as it is for Low 2-C and 2-C? Or would anyone scaling to over 1000x 2-C be 2-B?

This is also why 2-C to 2-A should be revised.

2-C is specifically up to 1000 Timeline-busting.

2-B is any finite larger than 1000 Timelines. Unlike with Low 2-C, you can go from 2-C to 2-B from multipliers since there's no 5D boundary crossing whatevers. Since the jump between Low 2-C and 2-C is unique for that particular jump and doesn't apply to the other tiers.

 

[AguilaR101]

So people who scale vastly above GoDs can be likely be considered 2-C?

But what about GoDs themselves?, should they be consered cream of the crop Low 2-Cs or not?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I wouldn't go that far. When you jumped tiers back then, you had to be super darn far into the tier. To put it in perspective, when there were sealed forms of Pokémon, Arceus only qualified for 2-C because he could beat Dialga Palkia and Giratina by tossing in his sleep (and I mean that literally), and Dialga alone had Low 2-C heartbeats. The only other one that upscaled was a Digimon, and I don't need to go into how that scaling works. I don't think DB has anything like that.

 

[Giygas3]

@AguilaR101 Pretty much anyone a few times stronger than them would be considered possibly or likely 2-C.

And the god's would be virtually one of the strongest Low 2-C's on the site from this feat, yes.