Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

[RashFaustinho]

Well this is what I previously argued as well and I was told by multiple users that I was wrong. You can check the previous thread yourself, I linked it in my OP.

Ok, I've given it a quick read, and I disagree with those users.

As you said in the other thread, a feat done by two Low 2-Cs should not be applied to the two individuals Low 2-Cs.

I think the confusion is rising by the fact that people thinks that the distance between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite.

It's NOT infinite, both are 4 Dimensionals. It's "Unknown", it's different.

Also, to further complicate things, we don't how exactly they would have destroyed them.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

God damn it, it's amazing the ability you have to contradict.

according to you even two low gods 2-C can generate a 2-C energy, so someone 2x stronger than a god would also have, or is one or is another has no middle ground

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No. It's just that each GoD would destroy one universe. That's all there is too it.

 

[Akreious]

"I think the confusion is rising by the fact that people thinks that the distance between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite.

It's NOT infinite, both are 4 Dimensionals. It's "Unknown", it's different."

In order to be 2-C, the person must have the ability to cross 5D space. At least that's what the staff said. Therefore, 2 Low 2-Cs cannot perform a 2-C feat period.

Problem with your logic is that you're implying that it's possible for any quantifiable amount of Low 2-Cs to equal 2-C; which is, again, not possible.

"Also, to further complicate things, we don't how exactly they would have destroyed them."

No, not really. In the anime, their fight was about to escalate and the Angels stopped them on the spot. In the manga, they were literally holding 2 massive ki balls. In both situations, the battle was going to escalate.

 

[Akreious]

No. It's just that each GoD would destroy one universe. That's all there is too it.

They were in the same exact universe. In order to bust Champa's universe, the destruction that has to occur would have to traverse to his timeline. 2-C.

Saying that each GoD destroys their own universe their own universe also has little to no evidence behind it. Why would attacks concentrated on a single, humanoid opponent somehow be targetted at a whole other timeline? What?

 

[Zer00Negativo]

No. It's just that each GoD would destroy one universe. That's all there is too it.

it would make sense if each god were in their respective universes but that is not the case, they were only in the universe 7 and the energy would encompass the universe 6 as well.

this would basically says that if two people fought on Earth and destroyed Earth and Mars each character would be 5-B because each would destroy a planet, which is wrong because the planets are not side by side but millions of km, so energy would have to go all the way to Mars, and that would dexterate characters far above 5-B.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Why would a 4-D character need to have a 5-D feat in order to go to another 4-D universe? Yeah, people in Dragon Ball can't travel from one universe to another by themselves, but how does this relate to being 5 Dimensionals?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

They were in the same exact universe. In order to bust Champa's universe, the destruction that has to occur would have to traverse to his timeline. 2-C.

Saying that each GoD destroys their own universe their own universe also has little to no evidence behind it. Why would attacks concentrated on a single, humanoid opponent somehow be targetted at a whole other timeline? What?

And this folks is exactly why I made this thread.

Either the 12 universes in the DBS Multiverse share the same space-time continuum to allow Beerus and Champa to attack their universes from the same spot with 3-A moves, or they are 2-C for having their strength traverse seperate space-time continuums, which can't be done with anything less than 2-C level power. We have to make a choice.

 

[Akreious]

Why would a 4-D character need to have a 5-D feat in order to go to another 4-D universe? Yeah, people in Dragon Ball can't travel from one universe to another by themselves, but how does this relate to being 5 Dimensionals?

Not what i meant, sorry if you misinterpreted. In order to be 2-C, you have to be able to leave 4D space and traverse 5D space since you leave the timeline (the 4th dimension). You dont have to bust 5D space nor neccesarily have to travel in it or whatnot; only your energy to reach another timeline. This is why the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I find it funny how these two don't have a low 2-C key for doing the exact same thing.

We aren't over complicating things, the opposing side is. Beerus and Champa can destroy U6 and U7 while fighting in one spot. Either one of them have to Cross a 5D axis to destroy the universe because they're both in the same universe. 2-C you cannot divide the feat because that goes against our rules.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Why would a 4-D character need to have a 5-D feat in order to go to another 4-D universe? Yeah, people in Dragon Ball can't travel from one universe to another by themselves, but how does this relate to being 5 Dimensionals?

Not what i meant, sorry if you misinterpreted. In order to be 2-C, you have to be able to leave 4D space and traverse 5D space since you leave the timeline (the 4th dimension). You dont have to bust 5D space nor neccesarily have to travel in it or whatnot; only your energy to reach another timeline. This is why the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is unquantifiable.

I have a doubt. Don't you need to be 5 Dimensional yourself to cross a 5D space?

I didn't even know this was a thing.

 

[Dark649]

The possible space-time separation between the universes of the dragon ball cosmology/or not present: Is the main argument behind this.

A character destroying multiple universes and all of them have one space-time which ends up being intact: 3-A

Destroying an infinite universe and its space-time is intact: High 3-A [This one might was removed]

A character destroying a universe and its space-time = Zamasu becoming one with the universe and its-space time: Low 2-C [What they are currently scaled]

Destroying multiple universe that are separeted by space-time [Also destroying their space-time]: 2-C

Note: There was a main 3-A - Low 2-C revision due to a user saying that all universe busting feats always includes its space-time, but i'm not aware what was decided.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Did you miss my last post?

 

[Amexim]

Their attacks have to be 5D to cross 5D space, not their bodies, Rash... which could be ANOTHER infinity separating the scaling. So, again, we can't just treat dragon ball special and give it new tiering rules.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I think at least low 2-C likely 2-C would be a good idea.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Dark649, actually it was agreed to keep each of the tiers; the only thing that was agreed to be removed was the statement about "4-dimensional structures less than universal" statement being removed from High 3-A. But Sera basically said Low 2-C should be the standard feat for Monotheistic type of Gods giving birth to the universe unless otherwise stated. But that doesn't quite apply to any changes done for Dragon Ball characters.

@Zamasu, And I don't quite thing that will be accepted either, I think the gods of destruction will remain Low 2-C for now.

 

[AKM sama]

This is same as the 3-A and Low 2-C argument all over again, when people were saying that SSJ2 Kefla shouldn't be Low 2-C because she is not infinitely stronger than her SSJ1 self. Or that SSG Goku should be Low 2-C because he wasn't infinitely weaker than Beerus.

DB is a simple kids' show like many others which don't strictly follow our each and every rule. Our current rule only states that a character cannot be bumped to 2-C from Low 2-C based on multipliers alone, whether it's x2, x50 or x9000 because the gap is unquantifiable. The character requires feat.

Beerus and Champa aren't 2-C because they don't have individual feats of destroying 2 universes, which is the baseline for 2-C. Simple. However, I would say that if a character scales above Beerus+Champa's combined power, he should be 2-C because Beerus+Champa's combined power is 2-C. (Just like we already do. Despite SSB being a finite multiplier over SSG, we still treat it as Low 2-C instead of 3-A because SSB scales to Low 2-C characters/feats.)

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

DB is a simple kids' show like many others which don't strictly follow our each and every rule. Our current rule only states that a character cannot be bumped to 2-C from Low 2-C based on multipliers alone, whether it's x2, x50 or x9000 because the gap is unquantifiable. The character requires feat.

Beerus and Champa aren't 2-C because they don't have individual feats of destroying 2 universes, which is the baseline for 2-C. Simple. However, I would say that if a character scales above Beerus+Champa's combined power, he should be 2-C because Beerus+Champa's combined power is 2-C. (Just like we already do. Despite SSB being a finite multiplier over SSG, we still treat it as Low 2-C instead of 3-A because SSB scales to Low 2-C characters/feats.)

Then this is a bigger problem than anticipated because multiple people have previously argued this same thing, including me, and we were told that we're wrong and that 2 Low 2-Cs cannpt perform a 2-C feat without being 2-C themseles individually.

 

[AKM sama]

"2 Low 2-Cs cannpt perform a 2-C feat without being 2-C themseles individually."

I personally disagree with that notion. Because it gives the illusion that the difference between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I find it funny how these two don't have a low 2-C key for doing the exact same thing.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Honestly, I don't understand how people can claim two Low 2-Cs can create a 2-C feat but then argue that Goku wouldn't be 2-C for multiplying his Low 2-C Blue form by 20x.

So two Low 2-Cs fighting eachother can destroy two different spacetimes but one Low 2-C multiplying all of his abilities by 20x...doesn't? Okay, so say the logic is just that Beerus and Champa are 'bordering' 2-C so their combined powers can perform a 2-C feat. Goku claims Broly 'possibly' surpasses Beerus and we have scans claiming UI Goku 'possibly' surpasses Beerus.

So if Broly surpasses Beerus when two people comparable to Beerus can produce a 2-C feat by fighting...wouldn't Gogeta and all of the Angels scale to being 2-C for being far more powerful than Broly?

Genuinely not sure how this wouldn't upgrade them to 2-C.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Two Low 2-C's destroying two universes in a fight is obvious, nothing should change, except for that rule being removed because they're both Low 2-C and can affect both space and time

It's probably best to just get this over with and close the thread.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

With all due respect DDM, i'd prefer it if we could please actually reach a general consensus about this issue first before we close this thread.

I know where Promestein's coming from, but thats part of why this is a huge issue. Some of us, including me, have already previously argued that 2 Low 2-Cs destroying 2 universes wouldnt be 2-C for either of them, but now multiple people say this is wrong and that they should be 2-C individually because 2 Low 2-Cs cannot do that without being 2-C to begin with.

 

[Akreious]

I also think the logic of "These Low 2-Cs are already hilariously above baseline and them being able to bypass the barrier to reach 2-C means they're 2-C via that increased scaling"

Or they have AP of multi-timeline busting but couldn't because they're stuck with the "no scaling or multipliers can make them 2-C"; if they can pass that barrier then the appropriate scaling should follow.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Two Low 2-C's destroying two universes in a fight is obvious, nothing should change, except for that rule being removed because they're both Low 2-C and can affect both space and time

It's probably best to just get this over with and close the thread.

Yes pls.

 

[Andytrenom]

No. At least clarify why two times Low 2-C not being 2-C doesn't mean half of 2-C won't be low 2-C because the arguments do not make this clear.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No. At least clarify why two times Low 2-C not being 2-C doesn't mean half of 2-C won't be low 2-C because the arguments do not make this clear.

This.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Despite being not favorable to the change, I suggest to NOT close this thread.

Feels like shutting down people

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because each is destroying just one universe. It's two Low 2-C feats done by two people, one each.

 

[Akreious]

Because each is destroying just one universe. It's two Low 2-C feats done by two people, one each.

Unless you have evidence in support of this stance, we have more reason to think otherwise. Both Low 2-Cs were in the same universe; again unless for some reason one of the GoDs targeted an entirely different timeline than the humanoid sized person in front of him

 

[ProudLearner]

Because each is destroying just one universe. It's two Low 2-C feats done by two people, one each.

That's how I thought about first yet they were in Beerus planet located in Universe 7.

Plus, combing there powers to destroy 2 universe makes them 2-C even if it goes against the tiering system rules.

 

[Huesito88]

Aren't their energy's combining resulting in both being destroyed rather than Beerus nuking his own universe and Champ nuking his?

 

[RashFaustinho]

Let's not go in circles here

I think that the question that arosed from the most recent posts is the following:

How can Champa and Beerus destroy a far away universe, since they cannot be in both Universe 6 and 7 at the same time, they can't travel between them, and they shouldn't be able to output 5D energy?


(not a point I am making, but I think this specific question has to be answered, so far all I've read is that they are overthinking this. I'd like to hear an actual explaination about this)

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Let's not go in circles here

I think that the question that arosed from the most recent posts is the following:

How can Champa and Beerus destroy a far away universe, since they cannot be in both Universe 6 and 7 at the same time, they can't travel between them, and they shouldn't be able to output 5D energy?

Hakai can affect places outside time and space (world of void), and so it would not be impossible for the energy to be able to cross 5D space, since 5D is still time and space

 

[AKM sama]

Unless you have evidence in support of this stance, we have more reason to think otherwise. Both Low 2-Cs were in the same universe; again unless for some reason one of the GoDs targeted an entirely different timeline than the humanoid sized person in front of him

Akreious is right.

But Beerus and Champa would still be Low 2-C because they didn't qualify for the baseline 2-C individually, which is being able to destroy 2 universes. Only characters that can handle Beerus+Champa's combined power should scale.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

But it's not that simple. When they fight the destruction energy rapidly spreads from their direction, even with physical strikes (it's not like they used Ki blasts in both scenarios anyway). They can also do it from earth which is at the edge of the universe. Also assuming it's just Beerus + Champa, we would have to assume one of them has superior range because of where they're located.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

And is there a reason this is being ignored?

 

[AKM sama]

Their range can be superior but they still don't qualify for 2-C unless you have evidence that they can destroy 2 universes on their own.

If those two you linked also don't have evidence suggesting they could destroy 2 universes on their own, they shouldn't be 2-C either.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Like I said above, if it is their combined power that is 2-C then shouldn't Gogeta and the Angels be 2-C for scaling far above Beerus and Champa?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Like I said above, if it is their combined power that is 2-C then shouldn't Gogeta and the Angels be 2-C for scaling far above Beerus and Champa?

I think I tried asking this for a different character a long while ago too.

I know a character who is far superior to multiple Low 2-C's, yet he is still only higher into Low 2-C and doesnt exceed a tier.

If 2 low 2-C's can equal 2-C, wouldnt the same apply to a group of Low 2-C's who combine their power together?