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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

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Matthew Schroeder said:
Also imagine my shock that Dragon Ball fans are trying to upgrade the verse via multipliers and not feats. Nobody but Zeno is 2-C.
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If you read the thread you will see it's based on Beerus and Champa combined being capable of doing 2-C destruction. So we are scaling Beerus's energy + Champa's energy to equate to 2-C.
 
Just because you think that doesn't mean it will go through. They are still only Low 2-C, as tirelessly explained multiple times by multiple staff members.
 
Matthew, with all due respect, I really think you should humor me and read through this thread please.

Ignoring the dramatic outbursts above, I understand why the staff are really tired with dealing with this but at the same time I also really want this to be given an actual consensus despite the annoyance because this is an actual issue that needs to be concluded. No matter how much we dislike dealing with it.
 
Yeah the longer we drag something we dislike the more stale and dead it becomes. We can't just throw everything out the window just because 'Err we discussed this already can we close now'.
 
Matt, Plz. Actually post a long form coherent argument against things you disagree with from now on because we don't even KNOW explicitly if we're operating under false understandings of what qualifies for 2-C or not. Saying "this is dumb, close this thread" is the LEAST affective thing to do and you do it ALMOST every time you appear in a thread at least initially. Even when you agree with something, you say "Duh. Put the upgrades in" when people ACTUALLY ******* look up to you for your intelligence and ability to argue a point. If you don't have the time to actually explain things explicitly, or feel like it's a waste of breath to do more than you already do, why be a ******* staff member, because almost EVERYONE else with a green name actually consistently posts detailed reasoning for the position, at the very least after being prompted to. It's ridiculous.
 
And as for the idea that universes aren't separated by 5D space or by a 5D barrier, doesn't it have to be in order to be a seperate timeline?

4D space is just time but in a physical axis, right? Physical 4D characters move through the 4th D like it's space for us, meaning their movements in any direction are comparable to time travel. To cross a 4D distance would be to move in some direction in time, forward or back, past present or future, yeah?

So if universes AREN'T SEPERATED by 5D space. But are by 4D space, how are they seperate space times? Because if I can travel 4D space, I have to be moving through time, and getting from one universe to another via traveling from one direction in time to another (which would have to be towards the future or the past I guess) universe, that's the definition of time travel. Unless the 4D isn't time like I was taught, or unless busting the present isn't the same as busting the future, or unless seperate space times don't have to be seperate from the same timeline (because you have to be separated by 4D space or TIME in order to be on the same timeline)...

The distance has to be 5D. Andy said on another thread that the 5D power is beyond 4D power on an infinite scale has to be proven to be true in the verse being analyzed, but that contradicts what we do for 3D power vs 4D power by definition because the same axiom is used there. Especially because every spacial dimension has 2 directions on an axis. 1D has left or right, 2D has up and Down, 3D has the Z axis of forward or back, and 4D would likely be the same in structure as a spacial dimension, with Past being its left/negative direction, and Future being the Right/positive direction. Look at how a graph has x-axis with two directions (which is 1D, right?) y-axis with 2 directions which I KNOW is 2D and the same for a Z axis. So, how can things be in a different, seperate timeline, if the 4D axis is moving from Past to Future (Present time as the origin point)? Isn't traveling in the future of a timeline proof that they destination in that timeline isn't a seperate timeline/timespace?

I know that having your power cross 5D space would make your power 5D or else it couldn't travel through 5D space the same way 2D objects that hop from paper to paper would have to move in 3D space to do so, which is 2-A from what I heard, but 2-C is about strength rather than dimensional level, it's how many 4D constructs (universes) you can destroy, not how strong you are. If somehow characters were able to destroy multiple separate space-times without them being separated by a 5D barrier or distance, it would be cut and dry, but you need to breach that distance first. It being a 4D distance isn't really a rational idea unless we drop the association between it and Time.
 
I'm not. I'm just confused as to how they can bust a seperate Universal Spacetime without being 5D. Actually, how ANYONE of ANY verse can do that. If everyone in fiction who busted a seperate Universal space time did so via crossing through 5D space, instead of, like, warping their power through a portal or something, or essentially bypassing the need to travel a 5D distance. I don't know how you would actually destroy seperate timelines without being 5D by necessity actually, because them being separated by 5D space and not 4D space is the only way to my understanding.

And just because they can, paradoxically, doesn't necessarily mean they're higher on a 4D scale, even though they should because they have to be 5D to have their power work on 5D space. So I dunno. It's either everyone is 5D this way or... Actually yeah, unless it's demonstrated that they somehow (and I don't even know how one could do this in the first place) not have their power go through 5D space to reach a seperate 4D construct, I think anyone with the same feat would have 5D power.

Think about how a drawing on a piece of paper can somehow make it to another seperate piece of paper. They have to have some kind of hax or method to appear in separate things or have their power appear on seperate pieces of paper, otherwise they would have to literally go above their dimensional level and "physically move through 3D space" and hop onto another paper, in the case of a 2D thing.

I'm not tryna wank.
 
I hope you read what I said so you understand that I know that. I'm saying that universal space times being on the same plane sounds like they are on the same timeline, by definition.
 
He's not going that far, but I do feel like what he's saying is rather all over the place. He did say something about 5-dimensional space being the distance between 2 or more timelines, which that is what some staff members have been using. But I don't 5D space is really the right description. It's more so 4-D space that separates timelines. But the point that is important is the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C isn't quantifiable to calc. So Zeno will remain the only 2-C character here.
 
I'll just ask Donttalk about this space thing, to make sure if I have the right idea myself or not
 
Pretty sure that "5D axis" stuff in tier 2 was supposed to get removed. Could be wrong, but either way it really doesn't make sense.
 
Just to make sure we dont get off track from my original question here, lets say the 2-C upgrades are denied and Zen'o remains as the only 2-C here.

What about the current discussion rule? Are Beerus and Champas feat of destroying U6 and U7 going to still be treated as 3-A feats or Low 2-C feats? Because if its the former, then the cosmology of the universes is what needs to be downgraded.
 
1. Matt, instead of actually explaining why I am wrong, or asking me to clarify, you just sarcastically disagree without saying anything of substance else. EVEN when I say I don't necessarily think Dragon Ball should be High 2-A, so that's a misrepresentation of me as well, which instead of responding to earnestly, you just say "omg how dumb is this guy". Thanks. Helpful in showing me why I am wrong.

2. @Medeus I don't really know if any 4D space can be considered separate like that though. I don't mean for it to sound incomprehensible, but what I mean is that 4D space is literally on an axis of past to future in terms of "direction" and traveling 4D space physically would be time travel which messes with the idea of seperate timeline busting it seems. Unless busting a "future" version of your universal space time is Low 2-C or 2-C but time is, like, a gradient. You can't really exclusively destroy the future because it's always connected to just before the present, I guess. Look, my point is, 4D space is just what time would be, and that contradicts seperate timeline stuff, so, it would have to be seperated by 5D space instead, which weirdly makes you 2-A instead, which is a weird thing.
 
I told ya all that multipliers should be ignored. Glad someone is finally dropping this argument now.

As for the cosmology problem, I tried to ask what it takes to blow up another (far and SINGLE) verse in the general discussion rule, the answer was that the feat is Low 2-C, and the fact that energy has to "cross" 5 Dimensional Space doesn't make you 2-A

That was the discussion: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3135331

I dunno if something in the rules has to be changed (not gonna put my nose in rulings changings, too many universes affected), but going by the current rules, the feat should be Low-2C

PERSONALLY, I'd just upgrade Manga characters to match Anime characters (pretty sure Beerus is 3-A in the manga) but I'll wait for more opinions
 
Personally i don't think Option 2 shouldn't be accepted in anycase, the DBverse clearly establish that each universe possess their own space-time (or their own dimensional space), if they didn't then both the Afterlife and the Living World would physically interact with each other (which do not make sense) or anyone from the Living World could freely travel to the Afterlife without any special vehicles or special abilities like the Instant Teleportation.

And just because those universes exist in the same timeline it doesn't debunk the fact that you need at minimum Low 2-C to destroy just one universe (although i personally believe that its more like a 2-C feat), just look at Marvel's cosmology where multiple dimensions and universes coexist in the same timeline (its not like Asgard, Earth-616 or Negative Zone have their own separated timeline).
 
@Rash I don't know much about DBS but aren't Universe 6 and Universe 7 adjacent universes? Your situation of blowing up a single far away universe wouldn't really apply in that case
 
Andytrenom said:
@Rash I don't know much about DBS but aren't Universe 6 and Universe 7 adjacent universes? Your situation of blowing up a single far away universe wouldn't really apply in that case
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I doubt it changes anything, because we don't know how far these universes are
 
We are using the feat of Beerus and Champa for a Low-2C, Possibly 2-C'''' rating then we would scale to this Here and BUW Jiren. We know that FPSSJ Broly and Gogeta Blue surpassed Beersu so they should scale to that too.

If Gogeta Blue uses KK or Evolution he will surpassed Beerus and Champa feat. Wait we can't since it goes against Tiering system.

We need a Tier 2 Revision.

The dogma of the tiering system needs to stop. Change must happen. I'm no fanboy but jeez this place downplays DB alot.

From SSJ multiplires to obvious confrontation of Beerus and Champa.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus " But the point that is important is the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C isn't quantifiable to calc. So Zeno will remain the only 2-C character here. "

You're correct, it's not quantifiable, however this is in most cases. However, this particular case is an exception. As stated from earlier, we have a 2-C feat from Low 2-C in which the feat instead from each would be Unquantifiably high, to where we know characters just a few times stronger than which can achieve the same feat realistically speaking. You need to debunk why we can't do it in this particular case.


@RashFaustinho "I dunno if something in the rules has to be changed (not gonna put my nose in rulings changings, too many universes affected), but going by the current rules, the feat should be Low-2C "


Sure? But this is an entirely separate feat than the one you were asking altogether.
 
Andy; While he didn't conclusively respond to the last bit, it's safe to say that universes, if typically embedded in 5D space, are also typically seperated by it, meaning that your power would need to cross a 5D axis, making your power 5D, unless y'all want to argue a drawing can cross a 3D axis even if it cannot because it is 2D. And that's nonsense.

So, I don't know what to do here besides say the difference between being capable of doing something Low 2-C and the most direct and simple way of doing 2-C feats is seperated by a dimensional tier and infinities. Unless you all can think of a simpler path for one to cross from one 4D object seperated by 5D space to another...? The simple path seems through that 5D space my guy.
 
How are most 2-C feats accomplished? Because if it's just through explosions, or even physical strikes, they have to have 5D power or be 5D. Then, it seems 2-A's definition needs to be reworked if anything. But i'll Check what it is.
 
@Anexim No one recieves a tier for crossing an X-Dimensional axis, they recieve a tier for destroying an X-Dimensional construct (Of non insignificant size, although I'm not sure what that means exactly)

Low 2-Cs don't just make their attacks cross 4-D time space, they destroy that 4-D time-space as well. Similarly High 2-As won't receive that rating if they just have attacks that reach across 5-D space but don't destroy or even affect it
 
If it means anything, Beerus and Champa were destroying 2 universes and the unquantifiable space that's over 100x bigger than normal.
 
That might be true, but crossing X dimensional Axis requires you being X dimensional. This is fact, unless a drawing can travel in 3D and still be 2D, which we agree it can't. Being X dimensional makes your power higher than infinite W dimensional power. This is the wiki's Logic.
 
@RashFaustinho "I dunno if something in the rules has to be changed (not gonna put my nose in rulings changings, too many universes affected), but going by the current rules, the feat should be Low-2C "

Sure? But this is an entirely separate feat than the one you were asking altogether.

Well, we know Beerus and Champa are in Universe 7.

Destroying the sole Universe 7 is simple for two characters that are at least 3-A, the issue comes when destroying Universe 6.

That's why I asked in which tier should be classified a character that destroys ANOTHER universe (excluding the one you're currently in). To see what it would take for Champa and Beerus to destroy U6 from U7 location.


The answer was it's a Low 2-C feat (Universe+ Attack Potency, with Multiversal Range)
 
@Rash That is NOT the answer you were given, it was only a specific situation of destroying two universe while doing nothing to all universes between them that was remotely suggested to be a low 2-C feat by anyone
 
Andytrenom said:
@Rash That is NOT the answer you were given, it was only a specific situation of destroying two universe while doing nothing to all universes between them that was remotely suggested to be a low 2-C feat by anyone
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Does it change anything though? As I said above, it's not like we know the exact - distance - between U6 and U7.

We don't even know if these universes are ordered in a "linear" fashion
 
Of course it does. Assuming two adjacent universes being blown up from a point on one of those universes isn't a 2-C feat is asinine and at that point you're basically arguing "2-C isn't 2-C".

It is not the specific situation you were given when told what a low 2-C feat would be and asserting that there's no difference between them to go on and say you were told this feat was low 2-C greatly misrepresents facts
 
Andytrenom said:
Of course it does. Assuming two adjacent universes being blown up from a point on one of those universes isn't a 2-C feat is asinine and at that point you're basically arguing "2-C isn't 2-C".
It is not the specific situation you were given when told what a low 2-C feat would be and asserting that there's no difference between them to go on and say you were told this feat was low 2-C greatly misrepresents facts
Click to expand...
Well, technically speaking, nothing was said about destroying Universe 6 and 7 at the same time, isn't it?

Wouldn't it be possible that Universe 7 was destroyed first, and Universe 6 was blown up next? I thought that the lowball was the one to be taken into consideration.
 
While I'm here, I might as well say that no one should be upgraded to 2-C.

Even if you want to say "well Beerus and Champa had to be affecting space-time otherwise they can't breach dimensional walls", it's still a Low 2-C feat. Seeing as how their energy was taking its sweet time to destroy the room they're in let alone Universe 7, it's more like they would first bust Universe 7 and then they would destroy Universe 6. Destroying one at a time is just Low 2-C.
 
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