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Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision
- Thread starter ProfessorKukui4Life
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See, thing is, the only barrier preventing a Low 2-C with a 2x Multiplier from being 2-C is the 5-D Barrier we talked about. If we are able to establish that these character's attacks are able to pass that 5-D Threshold then their multipliers and scaling should apply.
Which still makes everyone who scales above Beerus and such 2-C.
Which still makes everyone who scales above Beerus and such 2-C.
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Low 2-C = space time.
2-C = space time + 5-D axis.
If a character is multiple times stronger than someone who can destroy one universe and a 5-D axis, multipliers should make them 2-C.
2-C = space time + 5-D axis.
If a character is multiple times stronger than someone who can destroy one universe and a 5-D axis, multipliers should make them 2-C.
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Well, we have two things that would aid that argument.
1. Beerus and Champa are explicitly stated to cause the destruction of both their universes if they fought seriously
2. According to the Broly novel, SS Gogeta and SS Broly clashing 'exceeded the boundaries of the dimension' with their energy. SSB Gogeta scales to being thousands of times stronger than SS Gogeta and, along with FPSS Broly, shattered the...higher(?) dimension they were transported to.
I doubt that would be considered as evidence of them being capable of surpassing the 5-D threshold but it's certainly worth noting that we have a statement indicating Beerus and Champa are capable of 2-C feats together and that Gogeta and Broly (who scales to possibly surpassing Beerus) are capable of exceeding the 'boundaries of the universe' by clashing.
1. Beerus and Champa are explicitly stated to cause the destruction of both their universes if they fought seriously
2. According to the Broly novel, SS Gogeta and SS Broly clashing 'exceeded the boundaries of the dimension' with their energy. SSB Gogeta scales to being thousands of times stronger than SS Gogeta and, along with FPSS Broly, shattered the...higher(?) dimension they were transported to.
I doubt that would be considered as evidence of them being capable of surpassing the 5-D threshold but it's certainly worth noting that we have a statement indicating Beerus and Champa are capable of 2-C feats together and that Gogeta and Broly (who scales to possibly surpassing Beerus) are capable of exceeding the 'boundaries of the universe' by clashing.
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I have more evidence just give me a moment.
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If we can agree that Beerus + Champa are 2-C / 2 instead of pretending they're just Low 2-C*2 this thread might go somwhere. I wager they should automatically be considered to be the strongest Low 2-Cs in terms of AP on the basis their rating would come from a divided 2-C feat.
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Sorry for such a long wait. So since space time + 5D axis = 2-C I've noticed a bit of a problem but I'll get to that.
This lies within Infinite Zamasu he became one with the universe and was able to breach to the other timeline. In order to do that he had to cross 4 dimensional barriers. Future U7's time barriers, the future timeline's time barriers, the present time barriers and present U7's time barriers. That's a hell of a lot of range Zamasu had to physically cross and embody to reach the present. Clearly he's already borderline 2-C. So like Akreious said multipliers should apply if you're stronger than a character who can destroy a universe and a 5-D axis.
But here's the problem, multipliers were removed entirely from tier 2 which is weird to say the least. Believe me I understand why low 2-C can't use multipliers because you don't need to destroy a 5-D axis to be low 2-C, but with 2-C and up you do. If a character can destroy time, space and a 5-D axis, then multipliers should definitely increase your AP it's only natural progression. Take Megaman EXE for example. These characters have a hilariously large scaling chain in baseline 2-C because... reasons. They could be hundreds of times stronger than baseline but can only destroy 2 universes via potency. It's just downplay if you ask me and playing things WAAY too safe.
This lies within Infinite Zamasu he became one with the universe and was able to breach to the other timeline. In order to do that he had to cross 4 dimensional barriers. Future U7's time barriers, the future timeline's time barriers, the present time barriers and present U7's time barriers. That's a hell of a lot of range Zamasu had to physically cross and embody to reach the present. Clearly he's already borderline 2-C. So like Akreious said multipliers should apply if you're stronger than a character who can destroy a universe and a 5-D axis.
But here's the problem, multipliers were removed entirely from tier 2 which is weird to say the least. Believe me I understand why low 2-C can't use multipliers because you don't need to destroy a 5-D axis to be low 2-C, but with 2-C and up you do. If a character can destroy time, space and a 5-D axis, then multipliers should definitely increase your AP it's only natural progression. Take Megaman EXE for example. These characters have a hilariously large scaling chain in baseline 2-C because... reasons. They could be hundreds of times stronger than baseline but can only destroy 2 universes via potency. It's just downplay if you ask me and playing things WAAY too safe.
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Blue Gogeta is bare minimum 50x stronger than a Broly who's likely beyond Beerus. And being stronger than someone who can affect a 5-D axis should already make you 2-C.
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As Zamasu said. Gogeta casually stomped Broly, who Goku compared to as possibly surpassing Beerus. We already seem to be agreeing that Beerus and Champa clashing can cause 2-C feats so Gogeta, being far more powerful than Broly who is comparable to Beerus, should scale to 2-C along with the Angels and Grand Priest.
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I don't like what's being proposed in these last posts.
Power levels (as if, numbers, multipliers, etc.) should not be used to determinate tiers or AP of the warriors.
Also, Blue Gogeta being 50 times Broly - Not sure where this is got from. Probably some kind of SSJ Blue multiplier, which has no meaning anyway (at least for me).
Gogeta stomped Broly. Doesn't mean he's already in GoD X2 Tier. Stomping can be done with a miser 20-25% difference in DB.
Power levels (as if, numbers, multipliers, etc.) should not be used to determinate tiers or AP of the warriors.
Also, Blue Gogeta being 50 times Broly - Not sure where this is got from. Probably some kind of SSJ Blue multiplier, which has no meaning anyway (at least for me).
Gogeta stomped Broly. Doesn't mean he's already in GoD X2 Tier. Stomping can be done with a miser 20-25% difference in DB.
ProudLearner
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I guess you never seen the multipliers use for scaling for the TOPRashFaustinho said:
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There isn't any confirmation as to how strong Gogeta Blue is compared to Broly. Characters in DB can sometimes stomp with a mere 1.5x difference and sometimes even 10x isn't enough, so it's inconsistent and shouldn't be guessed.
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I didn't, but still sounds nonsensical to me.ProudLearner said:
It's obvious that in this anime / manga their power level isn't an actual rapresentation of their AP/Durability/Etc.
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While this certainly does, in-fact, occur in the franchise, I do not believe it is fair to claim that the difference between Gogeta and Broly was less than 2x. FPSS Broly was one-sidedly stomped in every regard by SSB Gogeta, with Broly unable to hit Gogeta even once. Gogeta was stated and depicted as fighting Broly very casually, so a casual Gogeta was stomping Broly with Broly unable to even hit SSB Gogeta once.AKM sama said:
So it's more like, Casual Gogeta stomps FPSS Broly, who is stated to be comparable to Beerus...when Beerus and Champa fighting can apparently perform a 2-C feat.
I'm honestly not sure how that wouldn't scale to Gogeta being Low 2-C, possibly 2-C or something along those lines.
To add further, Merged Zamasu was Low 2-C and gradually becoming 2-C. Post-UIO2 Goku Blue pushed Jiren harder than UIO1 could, and Jiren is stated to far surpass anyone Goku has faced before. IIRC Shin even states Jiren surpasses all of their other opponents before Goku even went UIO1.
Post-UIO3 and UI Goku should have grown far more powerful than that and SS Broly should be around 25-50x stronger than Post-ToP Goku Blue, who SS Gogeta matched...and then went Blue against FPSS Broly.
So the scaling is something like...
Angels > Gogeta Blue >> FPSS Broly = UI Goku >/= Beerus (2-C feats when fighting comparables) >>> SS Broly = SS Gogeta >> Goku Blue (Post-UIO2) > Merged Zamasu (Low 2-C, eventually 2-C)
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> , I do not believe it is fair to claim that the difference between Gogeta and Broly was less than 2x.
Vegeta VS Cui - 24.000 VS 18.000 - 33% difference.
Ended with 1 single blow
Vegeta VS Dodoria - 24.000 VS 21.000 / 22.000 (Can't remember now) - Roughly 10%-15% Difference
Vegeta overcome Dodoria with enormous ease. Ended with 1 Blast.
The difference between Gogeta and Broly could very well be way below 50%. Power levels aren't reliable for stuff like that.
The same thing applies for all the rest of the scaling - As far as I know, all of these could be all minuscle buffs and minuscle differences in AP - and Gogeta couldn't even be CLOSE to being a GoD X2 - All of this remembering we are talking about power levels, so, again, not reliable for proper AP tiering.
Vegeta VS Cui - 24.000 VS 18.000 - 33% difference.
Ended with 1 single blow
Vegeta VS Dodoria - 24.000 VS 21.000 / 22.000 (Can't remember now) - Roughly 10%-15% Difference
Vegeta overcome Dodoria with enormous ease. Ended with 1 Blast.
The difference between Gogeta and Broly could very well be way below 50%. Power levels aren't reliable for stuff like that.
The same thing applies for all the rest of the scaling - As far as I know, all of these could be all minuscle buffs and minuscle differences in AP - and Gogeta couldn't even be CLOSE to being a GoD X2 - All of this remembering we are talking about power levels, so, again, not reliable for proper AP tiering.
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"While this certainly does, in-fact, occur in the franchise"
This already answers the rest of the para. I'd prefer concrete evidence over guesstimation that has already been proven wrong in the series.
The benefit of the doubt only goes to angels because they always stop/KO Beerus and Champa with extreme ease and casualness, as if they were swatting away a fly. Their powers and rank also imply that they're on a whole different level. That's why imo they can be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C".
This already answers the rest of the para. I'd prefer concrete evidence over guesstimation that has already been proven wrong in the series.
The benefit of the doubt only goes to angels because they always stop/KO Beerus and Champa with extreme ease and casualness, as if they were swatting away a fly. Their powers and rank also imply that they're on a whole different level. That's why imo they can be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C".
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We're not referring to power levels though, we are referring to how the characters directly scale. Power Levels are, obviously, a terrible unit of measurement, especially beyond the Frieza saga.
If you want to argue 'Power Level scaling', the smallest comparison would, indeed, be Vegeta vs Dodoria at a difference of around 1.1x. Although, Gogeta casually stomped Broly so it would arguably be, at the absolute minimum, a Casual Gogeta scaling to 1.1x Beerus.
If you want to argue 'Power Level scaling', the smallest comparison would, indeed, be Vegeta vs Dodoria at a difference of around 1.1x. Although, Gogeta casually stomped Broly so it would arguably be, at the absolute minimum, a Casual Gogeta scaling to 1.1x Beerus.
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AKM proposal of, "GP being "Likely 2-C" and the angles be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C"." Makes the most sense to me - As the feat itself the Beerus and Champa did is certainly 2-C in its fullest - But due to the tier system, they themselves should be either 2-C themselves, or so close to it that multiplyers of people a few times stronger than them should allow them to be 2-C - an exception if you will to how we normally do things simply because of the nature of this feat.
I could see maybe SSB Gogeta, UI Goku, and Jiren scaling to "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C"?
I could see maybe SSB Gogeta, UI Goku, and Jiren scaling to "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C"?
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I'm neutral about angels being possibly 2-C
I'm opposed to Blue Gogeta, UI Blanco Goku and characters of similar strenght being anything more than Low 2-C
I'm opposed to Blue Gogeta, UI Blanco Goku and characters of similar strenght being anything more than Low 2-C
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Yet, the absolute minimum (based on pure power levels) that Gogeta would scale to is...1.1x the power of Beerus, when fighting casually and stomping Broly easily. It has already been stated and claimed that this scaling is nonsensical due to feats such as Hit tanking X10 Goku Blue, who is obviously 10x Goku Blue. So, would anyone really take early Z power levels as a means of powerscaling characters, when said scaling is heavily contradicted in the most relevant franchise to this argument, Dragon Ball Super?
So to iterate. We know that Casual Gogeta scales to 1.1x Beerus at the absolute minimum, based on early Namek power levels, which are heavily contradicted by Hit tanking Goku Blue multiplied by 10.
So to iterate. We know that Casual Gogeta scales to 1.1x Beerus at the absolute minimum, based on early Namek power levels, which are heavily contradicted by Hit tanking Goku Blue multiplied by 10.
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I also disagree with UI Goku and LB Jiren being possibly 2-C. The only source of comparison to Beerus is UI Goku 'possibly' surpassing Beerus, which is in the same tier as Broly.
I, obviously, believe Gogeta should scale to possibly 2-C for casually stomping Broly, who possibly surpasses Beerus. Which seems to only be argued against based on extremely inaccurate power scaling based on power levels, which would place casual Gogeta Blue at 1.1x Beerus at the absolute minimum.
I, obviously, believe Gogeta should scale to possibly 2-C for casually stomping Broly, who possibly surpasses Beerus. Which seems to only be argued against based on extremely inaccurate power scaling based on power levels, which would place casual Gogeta Blue at 1.1x Beerus at the absolute minimum.
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Scenes like Hit tanking a Blue Kaiohken X10 hit is just the definitive proof that power levels / multipliers are inconsistent and not reliable IMHO.CryoTheMayo said:
In both the Saiyan and Nameck saga, people have been stomped and crushed for way, way, WAY lesser differences in powers. And countrary to all subsequential material, we do have actual numbers in these two sagas. Most of the Power Levels in Dragon Ball Super are based on conjecture, speculation and personal interpretation.
So, again, Gogeta could be anywhere from X1.1 Broly to being X50 Broly. Not a reliable argument to place him twice as strong as Beerus or Champa.
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No, actually. All that proves is that power levels are useless to use for quantifying stomp gaps. We know that the Kaio-Ken explicitly multiplies all of a user's physical/ki-related statistics upwards to X20. Arguing against this would contradict the entire basis of a technique that is relevant to Dragon Ball Super, unlike power levels which have had no relevance to the franchise beyond the Frieza saga.
Hit could tank X10 Goku Blue, meaning a few attacks from someone 10x you can be tanked, supposedly.
So, again. The only argument for Gogeta being 1.1x (at the absolute bare minimum of his casual stomp) is based on using absurdly inaccurate power levels scaling, which isn't even relevant for the, what? 90% of the entire franchise's history?
Hit could tank X10 Goku Blue, meaning a few attacks from someone 10x you can be tanked, supposedly.
So, again. The only argument for Gogeta being 1.1x (at the absolute bare minimum of his casual stomp) is based on using absurdly inaccurate power levels scaling, which isn't even relevant for the, what? 90% of the entire franchise's history?
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DB no longer uses the energy level since the Freeza saga.RashFaustinho said:
SSB increases by at least 50x the strength of the SSG, this is due to the fact that the Goku SSG was losing to the Kefla base, so the kefla becomes the legendary SSJ (which we know to be superior to a common SSJ, which in turn has a power increase of 50x), the goku then turns into SSB and manages to even and surpass the kefla for a few moments.
And in the movie broly, Gogeta turns into SSB from the SSJ1, so the raise is much larger than 50x
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"So to iterate. We know that Casual Gogeta scales to 1.1x Beerus at the absolute minimum, based on early Namek power levels, which are heavily contradicted by Hit tanking Goku Blue multiplied by 10."
There's also a possibility that Hit might've been holding back a little so to not kill Goku at the start, or just improved later. But I'll not discuss this specific instance. The point being made is that it's extremely inconsistent, and guesses are really poor way to handle a tier revision. Concrete evidence is needed.
The writers constantly pushing Beerus to the top also doesn't help at all. Jiren was stated to "perhaps" surpass GoD level, while Broly was stated to "might" be stronger than Beerus.
There's also a possibility that Hit might've been holding back a little so to not kill Goku at the start, or just improved later. But I'll not discuss this specific instance. The point being made is that it's extremely inconsistent, and guesses are really poor way to handle a tier revision. Concrete evidence is needed.
The writers constantly pushing Beerus to the top also doesn't help at all. Jiren was stated to "perhaps" surpass GoD level, while Broly was stated to "might" be stronger than Beerus.
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Simply not relevant.CryoTheMayo said:
Kaiohken multiplies the statistics of the user, but in doing so his power level gets multiplied by the same amount - Which means, the power level reflects the supposed kaioken boost.
And just like all the rest of anything related to multipliers, power levels and stuff like that, it's not reliable, it's not accurate, it works randomly and if a stomp has to happen, it will happen regardless of the supposed "multipliers" put in place.
And this is why multipliers should be forgotten all together. Pure uselessness.
Not gonna considerate that SSJ Boost being X50 base form either for same reasons.
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Goku also would have had to hold back to not kill Hit, yet went X10 to surpass Hit's Time Skip and couldn't knock Hit out or knock him out of the arena.
So it is possible Hit was just restraining himself but it's hard to say. Goku definitely gauged Hit to require X10 to surpass the Time Skip but that certainly isn't a claim for how Hit scales in terms of AP, only that he tanked a X10 Goku briefly.
I agree, greatly, that power scaling is contradicted too much in regards to multipliers to use power levels or Kaio-Ken scaling, at least when comparing characters.
So it is possible Hit was just restraining himself but it's hard to say. Goku definitely gauged Hit to require X10 to surpass the Time Skip but that certainly isn't a claim for how Hit scales in terms of AP, only that he tanked a X10 Goku briefly.
I agree, greatly, that power scaling is contradicted too much in regards to multipliers to use power levels or Kaio-Ken scaling, at least when comparing characters.
ProudLearner
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If this were to be apply what is the scailing going to look like?
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jiren is stronger than a GoD, this is stated twiceAKM sama said:
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is 50x, you deny it will not change this official information, besides that this is the only logical explanation because goku can use kaioken of up to 20 and 40x if SSB did not increase 50x it would be enough goku to use kaioken instead of SSB (that spends much more energy according to whis and the manga)
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There is no doubt that the strongest of Universe 7 surpass GoD level.
- Pre-ToP Frieza is regarded as 'more' of a God of Destruction than Sidra.
- Jiren is consistently stated to surpass Belmod.
- Dyspo is so fast that Champa, and even Vados, struggle to perceive him (when Frieza can perceive Dyspo and dodge/block all of his attacks)
- Goku constantly grows more powerful in the ToP, even surpassing UIO1 which should surpass Infinite Zamasu (by scaling off statements about Jiren pre-UIO1)
- Other Gods of Destruction, like Heles, are even intimidated by Frieza's sadism.
- Frieza could stop a Hakai from GoD Toppo for a second, slow it down heavily and tank it, despite it warping the World of Void itself.
- SSBE Vegeta completely overpowered and defeated Toppo, a God of Destruction
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I know very well that the information is official, but that doesn't change a thing. We're still talking about power levels, and as proven above, this stuff is inconsistent with actual AP and Durability.Zer00Negativo said:
Also, if we have to take official guides by world, power levels are immesurable from Androids saga onwards, so, even if there was a 50x multiplier, it shouldn't even be considered in the first place, due to the PLs being not a thing anymore.
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Another instance I can think off the top of my head is Goku's fight against Nappa where a x2 difference was enough to break Nappa's bones with one good hit.
An argument can be made that since Broly survived multiple such hits from Gogeta, the difference is actually less. I'm not making that argument, neither am I arguing what counts as a stomp in DB, because let's be real, it's inconsistent.
All I'm saying is that it requires guesswork which, unlike the case for angels, isn't 100% reasonable. I'd obviously suggest being safe and conservative about it, because it's a tier revision and should only be done if there is complete certainty.
For that reason, I'm against anyone who is not an angel getting a 2-C rating. If this goes through, the most I can see is GP being "Likely 2-C" and the angles be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C".
An argument can be made that since Broly survived multiple such hits from Gogeta, the difference is actually less. I'm not making that argument, neither am I arguing what counts as a stomp in DB, because let's be real, it's inconsistent.
All I'm saying is that it requires guesswork which, unlike the case for angels, isn't 100% reasonable. I'd obviously suggest being safe and conservative about it, because it's a tier revision and should only be done if there is complete certainty.
For that reason, I'm against anyone who is not an angel getting a 2-C rating. If this goes through, the most I can see is GP being "Likely 2-C" and the angles be "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C".
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Multipliers from transformations and Kaio-Ken should still be considered for scaling Dragon Ball characters, due to the scaling being the only real way to discern how powerful the characters have grown (due to Dragon Ball rarely actually upping the ante) but comparing Dragon Ball characters and how they AP stomp one another via Kaio-Ken scaling, transformation scaling and Power Levels that weren't used for even 10% of the entire franchise is heavily contradicted within canon.
ProudLearner
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GoD should have At least Low-2-C, Possibly 2-CAKM sama said:
Angels and GP Likely 2-C
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as I said before, the kaioken can increase its strength by almost 50x, and even so the SS forms are treated as superior, if the increase were less than kaioken it would be enough to use the kaioken and not the SS forms.
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It'd be something like...ProudLearner said:
Angels are unquantifiably into 2-C (likely)
Gogeta is unquantifiably into 2-C (possibly)
Beerus, Champa, UI Goku, LB Jiren and FPSS Broly would all (I suppose?) be at the highest possible level of AP that a Low 2-C can have, without being 2-C.
Grand Priest >> Whis >> Gogeta would likely be the 2-C scaling chain, if Gogeta is accepted to be possibly or likely 2-C along with the Angels.
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