Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What the title says. While focusing on my Light Standards thread, making this thread completely slipped my mind. So nows time to play catch-up.

For what the purpose of this thread is for, the revision would be discussing the legitimacy of the DBS cosmology. If whether the universe's in the Dragon Ball Multiverse are their own space-times, or not. Yes, I know that we've had this discussio numerous times, so this isnt our first rodeo. However, due to a current consensus that we accept and apply to the Dragon Ball verse here, a huge problem in consistency comes from it that I and other users have recently noticed after this recent thread to try and upgrade the Gods of Destruction. To try and resolve it, this is where this thread comes from. I'll explain in more detail below.

This is where the problem would originate from. Currently, one of our discussion rules for Dragon Ball Super is this one:

"Also, do not try to upgrade the Gods of Destruction to 2-C based on the outcome of a hypothetical Champa and Beerus fight destroying their respective universes, as the statement likely referred to them destroying all the matter within their universes, with no proof of space-time being affected."

We currently reject the idea that Beerus and Champa would destroy the space-times of Universe 6 and Universe 7 based on Whis and Vados's statement, ultimately disagreeing with them receiving a tier 2-C upgrade that would likely result in accepting this idea. However, me and a few other users found a problem with this discussion rule.

Since we reject Beerus and Champa being able to destroy the space-times of their respective universes, that means we only accept them destroying the matter of their respecitive universes, as the discussion rule itself says. But if we only accept them destroying the matter of their respective universes, that means we're accepting and currently going with the idea that Beerus and Champa can breech the dimensional walls between their universes and destroy only the matter of Universe 6 and Universe 7. In other words, by accepting this discussion rule, we're accepting that Beerus and Champa can breech dimensional walls and destroy the 2 universes with 3-A level attacks. Which would be flat out impossible to happen without being able to affect space-time. Unless, as an exception, Universe 6 and 7 share the same space-time as each other and reside in the same space-time continuum as each other. However, that is something else that we also do not accept since we currently accept the universes in the Dragon Ball Super Multiverse to be their own individual space-times.

So im sure everyone should see the problem. This ends up creating a significant inconsistency between the 2 thats paradoxal. One one hand, we treat Beerus and Champa as only using 3-A level attacks to destroy their universes without affecting their space-times, just their matter. But on the other hand, we don't accept the universes in Dragon Ball Super sharing the same space-time as each other, we accept them as being in their own space-time continuums. So that means we would have to choose between 2 options:

Option 1: We accept Beerus and Champa being able to destroy the space-time continuums of Universe 6 and Universe 7 in their entirety instead of just their matter, which would likely result in them being upgraded to 2-C. Which, of course, would greatly affect the scaling of other DBS characters later down the line.

or

Option 2: We continue to accept them only destroying the matter of Universe 6 and Universe 7, but that would mean we would have to accept them being able to destroy the matter of 2 different universes, which as a result would mean the universes in Dragon Ball Super are not separated by their own space-time continuums but share them. This would make the DBS Multiverse share one giant space-time continuum, which would affect Zen'o's 2-C rating and the statistics of other characters.

I know this can get controversal, so if Staff would like to take the lead on this thread at any point and let qualified normal users participate, im completely fine with that. But as things stand, we need to come to a consensus about this, one way or the other.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Thank God that shit was removed.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

From here

Note: We consider the universes in Dragon Ball alternate timespaces relative each other, hence why Zen'ō is rated as 2-C, despite the events in the Goku Black Saga showing parallel timelines encompassing the whole of the multiverse.

The reason for this is that Universe 7 by itself has already been shown to contain parallel space-time continuums within its globe, such as the Room of Spirit and Time, which is still affected by time travel; which proves that the new timelines can encompass other space-times as well, and thus the events in the Future Trunks Saga don't prove anything in the way of the universes being physically connected.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Low 2-C GoDs and 2-C Zeno as they are is fine. The feat of Beerus and Champa isn't 2-C because nothing says it's going to be one shot and it's most likely that each would be responsible for one universe's destructions, not that they'd destroy both in an AoE blast.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Low 2-C GoDs and 2-C Zeno as they are is fine. The feat of Beerus and Champa isn't 2-C because nothing says it's going to be one shot and it's most likely that each would be responsible for one universe's destructions, not that they'd destroy both in an AoE blast.

Matt, thats not what my thread is about. No ones trying to upgrade the GoDs.

My threads more about the cosmology of the universes in the DBS multiverse. Because if we accept Beerus and Champa using 3-A attacks to destroy U6 and U7, then we're saying both universes can be destroyed by matter busting 3-A attacks instead of affecting space-time, which would make them apart of the same space-time continuum. Which is something we also do not accept.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Dude tf?

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Broly and Gogeta broke the dimensional walls with punches so I do not think it would be impossible for the gods

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It'll probably increase the range.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

Their attacks have dimension manipulation.

 

[Antoniofer]

To be fair that dimension in whose Gogeta and Broly enter seems like a Subspace, in whose case, if Beerus and Champa could do the same they could or not teleport to another space-time continuum, and continue their destruction without ignoring/breaking the dimensional boundary. But that is assuming that they can do the same, and that is assuming that their subspace travelling can connect wih another space-time continuum (assumin, of course, that any "universe" is in a different space-time continuum).

 

[Zer00Negativo]

I remember what is said dimension in Light novel

"Energy containing the might of different dimensions collides between the two. Flash of light surges as a silent explosion expanded. The Next instant, Gogeta and broly found themselves within a dimension of swirling strange lights. The boundary of the dimension could not withsland the energy released by them and got torn apart. "

And there are more examples like this as Majin boo breaking the dimensional wall that separates Earth and Room of spirit and time, another example is in the tournament where Cocotte imprisons Kale in a dimension where even Goku could not teleport, and Kale then shatters her with an attack. So breaking dimensions/dimensional wall is not something impossible for the DB characters, it all depends on the intensity and in the case of the gods the intensity spans two universes.

Also it does not make sense to be a subspace or the universes in the same space-time if it would not be enough to arrive with flying or spacecraft, but according Whis, the only way of mortals to travel between universes is with that cube that he transported the humans in the tournament of Champa, even the jaco spacecraft could access the subspace to make intergalactic trips and Hit with MFTL + feats and high technology still needs the cube (in fact that was the only motive that made Hit participate in the tournament).

And finally there is the fact that U6 and U7 are like alternative versions of each other, events that happened in one universe may not have happened in the other, such as the Earth of the universe 6 having died, Namek never died, the planet sadala never been destroyed, planet vegeta is still planet plant.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Broly and Gogeta broke the dimensional walls with punches so I do not think it would be impossible for the gods

False Equivalancy.

Broly and Gogeta were Low 2-C when they were doing that, which fits just fine because Low 2-C feats affect space-time. Effecting space-time allows you to break dimensional walls.

Beerus and Champa's situation is different because at this point they weren't Low 2-C yet, only 3-A according to this discussion rule. That means, at this point in the series, they could only affect the matter of their universes, being 3-A level attacks instead of Low 2-C level ones. Unless you can affect/destroy the space-time of universes, you can't breech dimensional walls with 3-A attacks. The only way you could do that is if the universes are not seperated by their own space-times and share one giant space-time continuum as each other.

Thats why we have to make a choice here. If we accept Beerus and Champa breeching into their universes with 3-A attacks, then we have to accept the universes in DBS sharing a space-time continuum. But if we continue to accept the universes being their own individual space-times, then we need to accept that Beerus and Champa could affect space-time here. Meaning, the discussion rule needs to be removed and they likely need to be upgraded to 2-C. Having both makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

this logic is erroneous "beerus and champa were 3-A" it's not as if they had trained and raised their level, the only thing that happened was that new infirmations were added and so their levels had to be updated, but that just means its level was this from the beginning and we just did not have this information yet.

For example, if a character with 2-C or 2-B feats appears in the future and this character is described as weaker than a god, then the gods would be updated, but you're treating like as if the gods had increased their powers, they did not increase their powers just new information was added and it would mean that his level was this from the beginning and we just did not know yet.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, im pretty sure thats not how this works. Beerus and Champa aren't treated as Low 2-C's before Infinite Zamasu became a thing, otherwise Goku and Vegeta would be straight up Low 2-C all around since the BoG arc.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Kukui Just ask someone knowledgeable if Beerus was low 2-C from the beginning or if the rating is for a certain point in time

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Kukui Just ask someone knowledgeable if Beerus was low 2-C from the beginning or if the rating is for a certain point in time

Well Beerus and Champas pages dont have their feats from earlier arcs as part of their Low 2-C justifications, but asking wouldnt hurt regardless.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

are two different cases, in BoG Beerus limited his power to fight against Goku, against Champa they fight with full force because the two hate each other, the gods since the beginning of DBS never trained so it does not make sense their powers have increased from a saga to another for literally zero reasons, the only thing that makes sense is they already have their level determined but reduce it to fight with certain characters.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Limiting your power however doesnt just make you drop a tier in this sense. In other words, a surpressed Beerus would still be considered Low 2-C. Effecting space-time with your power doesnt just go away just by limiting the level of your power.

We also have the fact that Beerus and Champa, when fighting each other, were definitely not shown to be effecting space-time before Whis and Vados intervened.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We've been having this same tiring discussion for years now. GoDs are Low 2-C scaling from Zamasu.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We've been having this same tiring discussion for years now. GoDs are Low 2-C scaling from Zamasu.

Wait, then what happened to their 3-A keys from the earlier arcs? Beerus and Champa now are just Low 2-C all around.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

Using this logic to train or to transform also does not make you increase Tier, but it happens in DB because everything depends on how much ki the user has if we would not have to consider the gun that hurt Goku and the hot bowl that burned the Beerus being Low 2-C as well.

And regardless of whether the fight was affecting space-time the energy would have to go through 2 universes so sooner or later they would have to surpass the dimensional limits of the universe, besides the fight was interrupted at the beginning and it could be that the more it lasts, if more destruction would cause, as in the case of the fight of beerus vs goku, in the beginning was not causing destruction but the more blows were given stronger they stayed and more risk to the universe offered.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

it is not necessary to have keys, if we do not have to have keys for all the personagnes for each tier below, since any character with control of the ki can lower its tier limiting its Ki.

 

[Master_Xar]

Low 2-C GoDs and 2-C Zeno as they are is fine. The feat of Beerus and Champa isn't 2-C because nothing says it's going to be one shot and it's most likely that each would be responsible for one universe's destructions, not that they'd destroy both in an AoE blast.

I don't really get how that works, if by the scenario we judge the feat on this doesn't make sense or requires the scenario of them fighting to be extremely specific.

I mean if we go by them having a fight we would almost have to assume they'd mean AoE as Dragonball characters are close-quarter combatants most likely within the same universe.

I can't imagine a scenario in the middle of a fight they just go to the other universe post-destruction of their battle destroying one to destroy the other universe, nor just some "stray blast" just happening the cross spatial barriers to destroy the other universe.

I'd imagine it WOULD be just a big AoE attack to wipe both universes

I mean applying a degree of Hume's Razor here the argument that they'd individually destroy both universes as the show implying it to both to be destroyed in a brawl is an unlikely cause to the effect of them destroying the two universes.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Kukui weren't you arguing that Beerus and Champa would be a shared feat at best?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui weren't you arguing that Beerus and Champa would be a shared feat at best?

Yes but that was before I noticed the very big inconsistency with this discussion rule. Plus others saying im wrong about it being a shared feat.

Im not arguing for a 2-C Beerus and Champa, but there's a clear problem with us having this discussion rule the way it currently is. You cant treat Beerus and Champa as only destroying the matter of their respective universes with 3-A attacks, and keep their universes as seperate space-times at the same time. That literally creates a huge contradiction.

If you breech dimensional walls and destroy the space-times of seperate universes, thats a tier 2 feat. But if your only affecting the matter of those universes and are not able to breech dimensional walls, yet those universes can still be destroyed, then that means those universes share the same space-time continuum. Currently, we apply both of them to DBS despite it being contradictory.

 

[AguilaR101]

A shared 2-C feat even overtime would make their low 2-C ratings qualitatively superior to every other one there is IF the "The gap between 2-C and low 2-C is greater than infinite" nonsense I've seen in the past is legit.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Hmm I see what you mean.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

AguilaR101 yeah tier 2 sucks.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Hmm I see what you mean.

Me or Aguila?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

You.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

A shared 2-C feat even overtime would make their low 2-C ratings qualitatively superior to every other one there is IF the "The gap between 2-C and low 2-C is greater than infinite" nonsense I've seen in the past is legit.

this would be literally the same as saying "high low 2-C", the point is that the 2 just combining their energy generated a 2-C energy which is impossible being only low 2-C, that would be the same as saying that 2x low 2-C = 2-C.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

But I thought a little and I think I thought of a plausible explanation: The gods can be 2-C with universal range, this would explain why a god alone can not destroy more than 1 universe, and at the same time would explain how the two together affect 2 universes.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Option 2 is likely the best one.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

But I thought a little and I think I thought of a plausible explanation: The gods can be 2-C with universal range, this would explain why a god alone can not destroy more than 1 universe, and at the same time would explain how the two together affect 2 universes.

That makes no sense though, If your 2-C, your range cant just be restricted to universal.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I don't get why this is so problematic, the statement is pretty blatant as it is and the whole matter thing just feels like nitpicking. Jiren, just by standing around, is already unquantifiably far higher than a character who is boarder line 2-C. Even ssj Broly and Gogeta, who are low god tier, are capable of destroying time space and dimensional barriers. Having baseline 2-C God tiers is not a stretch whatsoever.

 

[Zer00Negativo]

That makes no sense though, If your 2-C, your range cant just be restricted to universal.

not exactly, the range will only influence the affected area and not the energy generated, the page "Attack potency" leaves this quite explicit.

"depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack." https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency

So you can even generate a universal energy but concentrate your attack on a planet that will not demean the blow, what would matter if you will generated 2,825x10 92 joules, which is the energy needed to destroy the universe.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Did no one see my post above?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If im understanding this. What your pointing out is that the GoD's that Goku has contended with are Low 2-C (Universe level+ rating with no lower keys) Goku having fought a surpressed beerus means they would need to be surprsessed an Uncountably infinite number of times below the tier if this makes sense.

So, the easiest fix would be to give Beerus a key call it "Surpressed beerus" key and say he is 3-A Universe level. assuming this is correct.

That is assuming im understanding this correctly. I am sorry if this is poorly phrased...

 

[Akreious]

At this point, it definitely feels like nitpicking. The feat is extremely blatant; "You two keep up the fight, our universes are gone". No ifs, no buts.

You cannot be Low 2-C but bust another universe as well as the one you're in if you're only in one Universal no matter how many times you stack Low 2-C on top of itself

To address above posts, you cannot be 2-C with Universal Range if the feat you perform busts 2 universes; not "merely" universal range.

I agree with Kukui's post above; the standards we're placing on Dragon Ball and how we interpret their cosmology is literally a massive contradiction and cannot work as it is right now.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Wait, then what happened to their 3-A keys from the earlier arcs? Beerus and Champa now are just Low 2-C all around.

They were only 3-A when suppressing themselves. And we don't count characters suppressing themselves as a tier or else Goku and co. should have a tier for when they are around and touch other people without killing them.

The GoDs are Low 2-C throughout the entirety of Super. Beerus doesn't get stronger throughout the arcs - he isn't Goku who trains all the time.

Beerus and Champa are Low 2-C and since they are initiating a fight with one another, it is likely they are releasing some of their true power - which affects space-time.