Very Important Dragon Ball Super Revision

[Amexim]

Rash and Shadow to reach that conclusion you have to have reason to assume with a decent amount of certainty that they would be busted separately from each other. To do what you want to believe they'd be doing is assuming that they can exist outside of a 4D space-time and into a 5D one, and that they or their power can travel through 5D space, which is way above 2-C and might even dwell into wanky speed feats.

There's no evidence that they're going to bust one universe separately and then the other one, when Whis and Vados are stopping them when they did because BOTH universes are in danger and not just ONE. If they would bust them one at a time, Whis and Vados would specify 1 Universe, universe 7, and not imply that both universes were in immediate danger of them fighting as they did. To assume this is to stretch a vague aspect of this situation to ignore every more plausible implication than a vague one that takes far more thought to come to. It's SEARCHING for a reason to not have this feat be what it is.

 

[RashFaustinho]

> To do what you want to believe they'd be doing is assuming that they can exist outside of a 4D space-time and into a 5D one

Do they, though?

Goku and the others seemed just fine when they returned to Future Trunks' empty world, after Future Zeno blew everything up.

Here

> and that they or their power can travel through 5D space, which is way above 2-C and might even dwell into wanky speed feats.

To that, I cannot answer. It would imply putting into discussion some of the 2-C rulings, I don't want to get into that rabbit hole.

We just know, by current rulings, that you don't have to be 5D for this to happen

> There's no evidence that they're going to bust one universe separately and then the other one, when Whis and Vados are stopping them when they did because BOTH universes are in danger and not just ONE. If they would bust them one at a time, Whis and Vados would specify 1 Universe, universe 7, and not imply that both universes were in immediate danger of them fighting as they did. To assume this is to stretch a vague aspect of this situation to ignore every more plausible implication than a vague one that takes far more thought to come to. It's SEARCHING for a reason to not have this feat be what it is.

Well, we are talking about a fight that didn't actually happen here. In this kind of situations, where everything is too vague, the lowest possible scenario is always considered.

Even if they'd destroy them separately, those would be two universes at danger anyway.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Dude 5D is super wank.

Universes 6 and 7 are right next to each other. You can destroy one and then destroy the other and Whis's/Vados's statements hold up.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

No, it isn't. We have seen a model of the multiverse and the universes all line up as having the same distance, relative to universe to universe. Beerus and Champa could have feasibly destroyed Universe 7 and 8 instead, due to 8 being depicted as close to Universe 7, the same way that Universe 6 is close.

To claim that they can traverse from a destroyed Universe 7 to Universe 6 is also ridiculous to claim, considering you would be implying they can traverse an unquantifiably huge distance (like RIDICULOUS huge) when they have no such feats...to add further, claiming as such would be evidence for Beerus and Champa being 2-C for being able to traverse that distance fast enough to also destroy Universe 6, which would translate to their range due to how power scaling works in Dragon Ball.

This is like arguing that Cell was going to just destroy the sun to destroy the solar system, even though he was clearly going to detonate from the Earth and blow up the Solar System.

You are, essentially, forcing the perspective that Beerus and Champa were just going to fly away after destroying all of Universe 7 for giggles and then just nuke Universe 6 and then...what? Just stop? Would they just go "Okay we destroyed Universe 6 and 7, time to make up and go move in with Cousin Dyspo on the farm in Universe 11"?

Honestly, the ridiculous mental gymnastics required to argue against this statement being 2-C is indicative of how little argument there seems to actually be against it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Personally i don't think Option 2 shouldn't be accepted in anycase, the DBverse clearly establish that each universe possess their own space-time (or their own dimensional space), if they didn't then both the Afterlife and the Living World would physically interact with each other (which do not make sense) or anyone from the Living World could freely travel to the Afterlife without any special vehicles or special abilities like the Instant Teleportation.

But thats the problem though. If Beerus and Champa are not accepted as destroying the space-times of U6 and U7, but just their matter like the discussion rule currently says, then its an anti-feat against the universes sharing seperate dimensional spaces.

The afterlives have nothing to do with this, it's about the universes themselves being connected or separated from each other.

 

[AKM sama]

We have seen a model of the multiverse and the universes all line up as having the same distance, relative to universe to universe.

That's just not true. The model doesn't represent the actual arrangement of the universes. The twin universes are much closer to each other and we have no idea how far and how the rest of the universes are aligned or arranged with repect to U7, for example U10 or Zeno's place, etc.

I am also vehemently against using any kind of multipliers to push for a tier jump after 3-A, but won't discuss that here.

 

[Amexim]

Choosing a new interpretation and trying to see if that interpretation fits with the statements is NOT going by what the statements imply themselves. You are ADDING inferences there. Absolutely nothing implies that they're going to destroy one universe and then travel to another one, or have their power from fighting in that one destroyed universe travel a massive, unquantifiable distance to and from the other one. You're trying to make your idea fit so you can preserve a rating instead of letting the statements and verse generate the rating itself. That's pretty bad.

And I don't even understand how 5D not just for Dragon Ball, but for any and everyone who has done 2-C feats by having their power or bodies exist and move on a 5D axis is wank. If anything, it means our standards for the tiering need to be changed, or "5D power for almost every 2-C character who didn't somehow destroy universal spacetimes without traveling through 5D space or across a 5D axis" is the rule.

And the ruling you're thinking of is wrong Rash. Donttalk himself said that universes are embedded into 5D space, and the TIER DESCRIPTION says

Low Multiverse level: Characters who can destroy and/or create up to 1000 universal space-time continuums. The power difference between Low 2-C and 2-C characters is not possible to exactly quantify, given that the latter category has to breach the distance between universes along a 5-dimensional axis.

Unless you can somehow explain to me that a 2D drawing can walk around in 3D space and not have 3 Dimensions, as in they are 3D, then power or energy or attacks or beings that can move on a 5D axis are 5D. Point blank. PERIOD.

I know we can handwave 3D beings with High Dimensional power and immeasurable speed beyond time and shit, but we can't do the same with power or else the tier system loses its meaning. And we have never done that before. And it would also downgrade every actual higher dimensional being who are stronger than High 3-A characters for the simple fact that they're higher dimensional, and just as our infinite 3D size could never even be comparable to their 4D size, the same applies to power. If we reject this, then we reject the tier system as a whole.

Goku and Zeno and whoever existing in a void like that Rash is debatable in terms of evidence of them MOVING on a 5D axis, but that being "true" only makes them stronger and faster than what you're arguing for. So go ahead and vote for an upgrade, since you want to throw out any amount of evidence to prove any point you can even at the detriment to your own position. And, I don't even think I agree with the evidence you're presenting there— in so far as that evidence supports your claim.

The low ball isn't always the most rational interpretation even when things are vague, but I will grant you the idea that low-balling in response to a lack of information is better than nothing or adding information to suit your idea. We should always take the safest interpretation that requires the least amount of assumptions, and the assumptions we do take have to have solid evidence or reasoning behind them.

Problem though. Your low ball comes from adding information, taking extra assumptions, and basing those assumptions with at best weak reasoning.

The scene you are given has ABSOLUTELY no indication that the destruction of two universes was going to be sequential. While it doesn't EXPLICITLY state that the universes are gonna be wiped out simultaneously iirc, that assumption is the simpler, easier to explain and account for version that has more implications backing it up, as Whis and Vados stopped them before anything could really be done— implying with their expediency, efficiency, and overall haste that there was a REASON to rush and stop them when they did, which gives weight to the idea that their fight might have immediate and drastic consequences— that the consequences the Angels outline might be immediate and drastic. There's also them fighting over the baseball game (which is also between the same two characters who were previously asked to not fight or the universes die) resembles another scene in the franchise where a character was going to chain reaction collapse an entire space time, meaning it's not out of the realms of possibility that they MIGHT destroy it all at once. And while we DON'T 100% know for sure that this is the case, all this implication on top of the idea that every other interpretation to have the ratings be different or the feat be accomplished differently rely on weaker inferences based on very little than the idea that it's "possible" since there's nothing saying it wasn't going to be done or doable in the way you argue.

So, not only is your interpretation of the feat supported by the weasely sneaky loophole of saying "they didn't say it WOULDN'T happen like this" which is blatantly assuming more than you're given, but your explanation for how that could even be done is bafflingly more complex than anything implied. What part of two gods fighting can nuke both of the universes implies that they are going to SOMEHOW nuke one, and then SOMEHOW get to the other without having to either travel at speeds they've never done before or demonstrate feats that could be POTENTIALLY HIGHER than the basic assumptions we're making would. How the hell are they gonna nuke two universes with gaps in distance at least far greater than anything they have ever traversed with Ki blasts or movement speed. And doing so might be 5D because those blasts might need a 5D axis to travel along.

We usually assume the end result of the destruction of one universe is an empty void, rather than 5D space, which is why I disagree with that Future Trunks stuff Rash. And that alone isn't enough to determine if they can move in 5D axis or their blasts can or not.

I think we should change the definition of 2-A, because it seems more consistent that being above Low 2-C requires interactions with 5D axis, making things 5D because you can't travel on a dimensional axis without having or existing on that dimensional axis. This way, we get 2-C characters all over the wiki stating just as they are, solve the unquantifiable "no multiplier" gap between Low 2-C and 2-C by stating that the gap requires more than infinite 4D power by virtue of feats typically needing to be done through 5D axis stuff, and not have 2-A dragon ball because that's way out there.

 

[Andytrenom]

Okay enough with the 5-D already, if you have a problem with the standards then create a thread about it, and till that gets cleared up STOP with the argument that multiverse busting alone will grant you 5-D power

 

[Amexim]

Just checked that link you sent Rash, and I'm right. Zeno was in a VOID, not 5D space. In order to travel from one dimension to another physically, you would have to go through 5D axis. Zeno just blew up the 4D constructs he lived in. As a 3D being, he just floated in a void, because DESTROYING your DIMENSIONAL level will not put you on a higher dimension. You'd float in a void. Destroying even one of their universes by itself would put them in an infinite 3D void without space time, and they couldn't physically travel to another universe when the path to it is exclusive to 5D travel or teleportation or something that the Angels can do. The Angels wouldn't be helping them travel to another universe. So they would have to go across the 5D axis to do it. A bigger speed feat than what we're even arguing reasonably for.

I'll say this as clear as I can. Destroying your 4D Universe as a 3D character, or even a 4D character, wouldn't put you in 5D space. You can't exist in that unless you're 5D (or some superpower bullshit happens, and I know for a fact Beerus and Champa don't have it, and MAYBE Whis and Vados do?$. When you destroy the 4D universe you're in, you, as you cannot ascend to the higher dimension of 5D, as a 3D being are stuck in a VOID. That's what happened with Zeno. He wasn't in 5D space. He was in a colorful void. As nuking your space time leaves you in a void, the only way to get to another space time is to travel along the 5D axis. If Beerus and Champa were able to travel to another space time, they would need to traverse on the 5D axis, as, like Donttalk said, Universes are embedded in 5D space. Sharing 4D space is sharing a timeline. Moving through time is timetravel. And these guys don't even have infinite 3D SPEED. They can't even move in 4D space, which would be immeasurable speed, as, again, moving in 4D space can be time travel or at least an immeasurable speed feat. Immeasurable = moving anywhere anyWHEN (4D) vs Infinite = moving anywhere in no time (as in instant movement from point a to point b, which is 3D).

They can't even be considered the fastest MFTL+ characters in fiction. How would they be able to physically travel from one universe to another by moving in a 5D axis when we have no evidence of this power? That's a lot of assumptions my guy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He's not going that far, but I do feel like what he's saying is rather all over the place. He did say something about 5-dimensional space being the distance between 2 or more timelines, which that is what some staff members have been using. But I don't 5D space is really the right description. It's more so 4-D space that separates timelines. But the point that is important is the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C isn't quantifiable to calc. So Zeno will remain the only 2-C character here.

Yup. Makes sense.

 

[Amexim]

Andy, Rash already made a thread about it asking these questions and you still didn't answer. You also went to Donttalk to clarify if you even could answer. And the fact is that the 5D talk is relevant to the conversation, because all 2-C feats require moving on a 5D axis, and I don't understand how anything can move on any dimensional axis without hax or bullshit, and not be considered to have or be X dimensional. So, sorry that I make you upset, but until you can get someone more qualified than you by your own admission to clarify that being 5D and moving on a 5D axis is different (and explain how moving on a 3D axis as a 2D object while not having 3 dimensions is possible) then I can't leave. Because regardless of them being 5D or not, the way you and I both agree this fear is done is by their power traversing the 5D axis.

The staff all seem to have different rules in their head for how it goes, so I don't understand how you could be speaking from any perspective other than anger when there has been no answers one way or another coming from anyone besides Donttalk who seemingly supports the 5D traversal requirement. I don't want 2-A dragon ball. But our rules for being even 2-C makes the argument for me, sadly and much to my chagrin.

So, can you or anyone substantiate an argument for why energy or power traveling across a 5D axis isn't evidence for that energy being 5D? In addition, are you sure this rationally squares away with the argument that 2D objects cannot exist, never mind move, in 3D space because they lack a 3rd Dimension, and thus 4D objects and power can't move in 5D space because it lacks 5Dimensionality. We already agree that Z dimensional power is higher than Infinite Y dimensional power the same way I am more "real" than a 2D object with no depth to affect me. That's how High 3-A vs low 2-C works. I am using the exact same logic for here with 4D vs 5D.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

You're not making any sense with all this 5D rambling.

 

[Andytrenom]

Legitimate warning here, create a thread, wait for your points to be addressed and only then argue that multiversal destruction is 5-D since you're blatantly going current standards and refusing to stop even after being instructed to

 

[Andytrenom]

Btw I am more that willing to speak on this if you actually create a thread about this and stop derailing this one

 

[Giygas3]

This thread is getting derailed so hard.... Anyways, let's establish one thing first: Why should we take this interpretation that they're just going to destroy this one Universe first, then just go onto the other to destroy that one, much to how Cryo pointed out. Instead of taking it as a normal way of interpretating this and saying they going to destroy both Universes from withi the Universe they're already fighting in?

 

[Amexim]

I posted my last reply before I refreshed to see what Matt posted. And I am 110% him saying "Yup. Makes sense." Is disrespectful sarcasm like everything he says.

So I know that I said more than once that I am not trying to wank Dragon Ball to 2-A.

1. "I don't want 2-A Dragon Ball."

2. The fact that I don't want it for just Dragon Ball because i'm trying to point out how that 5D requirement shit is consistent across every 2-C almost because of how the tier is defined, rather than bias for Dragon Ball.

3. Me literally trying to redefine the standards so Dragon Ball ISN'T 2-A but 2-C at best.

Regardless of all that, you can't tell me what I intended for my position.

So, Matt, are you gonna actually contribute this time? Or are you gonna sling mud with no consequences like you usually ******* do. Like you did right now. Because even Dragon knows I'm not going that far.

 

[AguilaR101]

Can we focus on the original topics of the thread please

-Should universes be considered separate spacetimes in DB

-Should Champa + Beerus feat be considered 2-C (individual ratings notwithstanding) divided between the two of them?

As long as that is sorted out people can argue about extrapolating stuff such as characters being rated 2-C on the basis of scaling vastly above gods whose individual powers contribute half of the energy needed for such a feat.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Legitimate warning here, create a thread, wait for your points to be addressed and only then argue that multiversal destruction is 5-D since you're blatantly going current standards and refusing to stop even after being instructed to

100% this.

Anything that has to do with the standards of Tier 2 in general need to be taken to a different thread so the purpose of this one isnt derailed. We're already getting off track.

 

[ProudLearner]

All the universe are seperated with their space-times. Each universe has a twin. Universe 6 and 7 are twin universe because they are the same. Example: They have Saiyans and Namekians. Also, they have the Planet Earth.

Here whis explains the universes of Dragon Ball Here

The feat was in Beerus Planet Locared in Universe 7. It was not overtime since they were about to execute their last blow that was going to annihilate both universes. They were both stop by the angels before that happen. Beerus vs Champa and Here

 

[AKM sama]

Putting this thread back on track and answering AguilaR, my stance is still the same.

Beerus+Champa's combined power can perform a 2-C feat. Any character able to take on their combined powers would be 2-C as well. That's just straightforward and basic powerscaling.

That's not to say that Beerus and Champa would be 2-C as well, since they haven't shown any evidence that they can destroy 2 universes on their own, which is the minimum requirement for baseline 2-C.

My suggestion:

Grand Priest = Likely 2-C

Angels = At least Low 2-C, possibly/likely 2-C

 

[AKM sama]

This thread is too long though. You can either update the OP with the current solution and ask other knowledgeable staff members to comment here, or maybe create a new one with the current discussion and then call other staff members.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Shouldn't Beerus and co be at least low 2-C?

 

[Amexim]

I mean, i'n not the only one eho notices and thinks that the distance between Low 2-C and 2-C is infinite because of the 5D axis shit. But ok. Whatever. I'll make a different thread I guess, even though this is probably the first thing to be referenced and affected by the change.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I guess after it's agreed that the Angels are likely 2-C via scaling from Beerus + Champa (which seems to be the majority agreement from what I am seeing) a thread should be made arguing the scaling to 2-C for others like Goku, Jiren, Gogeta, Broly and maybe Beerus and Champa. Granted, the argument is that Beerus + Champa = 2-C and the arguments for Goku and Broly scaling to possibly 2-C would be based purely on them 'possibly' being stronger than Beerus. Regardless, a separate thread should be made for that if we come to an agreement for Angels being likely 2-C.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

This thread is too long though. You can either update the OP with the current solution and ask other knowledgeable staff members to comment here, or maybe create a new one with the current discussion and then call other staff members.

I'll create a continutation thread for what I originally made as the topic of discussion.

Anything that has to do with revising Tier 2 in general is to stay out, completely. It needs its own thread for that, prerably with staff.

 

[Amexim]

YUp. That is right here. https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3150853?useskin=oasis

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Made the continuation thread guys.

Again, ONLY about DBS. Not the tier 2 standard. As for this thread, someone can close it.

 

[Stefano4444]

The afterlives have nothing to do with this, it's about the universes themselves being connected or separated from each other.

The Afterlifes kinda matters in this discussion since their presence prove that each universe had their own dimensional space, instead of share a single one, as otherwise the deads would be able to interact with the living.