• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Messages
3,210
Reaction score
2,428
Hello. In today's revision, I will be specifically going over the Vertigo verse(Pre-Black Label). This will tie in any Sandman features such as Endless Night, Orpheus, Overture, etc…

The main premise is to establish what the Vertigo verse offers within the writings and statements of the main two authors of the Sandman stories: The Sandman and Lucifer. This will disclose any mention of Gaiman's Dark Horse works and his mythology, especially Murder Mystery and the origin of the Silver City. This will not include Hellblazer since too many authors change and will not include Carey's short run on it either.

Echelons of Wording:

Now many writers of comics have this sort of stigma where they use terms interchangeably to describe equivalence in nature. While this is good for the common readers, it does come with a set of problems with how we are to interpret those terms.

Example: Lucifer Morningstar created his own Creation separate from DC, and he was making “worlds.” This is used interchangeably with the material universes. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21)

Luckily the author of the Lucifer series did manage to answer some questions regarding such terminology. Michael Carey has stated that Universe is used in the same manner as Multiverse, as two interchangeable terms. There's no difference to him when describing it other than the semantics within the structure of the wording.

Due to this, he argues that an infinite everything is no different than just “everything.” This is evident since he believes that the infinite amount of universes simply is saying the same thing as an infinite universe. The Universe is the totality to describe Creation while the Multiverse refers to quantities or multiplicity of worlds, realms, and dimensions.

So what Lucifer made was not a realm like the one he ruled for ten billion years but a totality, a Multiverse. Where he now is God of his own Creation, to freely rule away from predestination. (Lucifer: Nirvana Vol.1 #1)

  • worlds = universes
  • Universe = Multiverse
  • Realms = Outside the Material Plane
  • dimensions = levels within worlds
  • Creation = Totality(worlds, realms, dimensions)
Creations:
Since we will mainly focus on the main reality also known to us as Yahweh’s Creation. I think that going over the other known creators in the lineage of Yahweh puts a perspective on how big the Creations’ are. Putting into perspective that each of them could contain dimensions like Yahweh’s did. (The Sandman Vol.2 #23)
Given that Yahweh’s statement indirectly indicates that all the Creations are meant to be treated as equals. Since he did make Lucifer and Michael to make the worlds with the power he bestowed upon them in time before time. (Lucifer Vol.1 #37)

Creation Origin:

In the Darkness Before creation was Yahweh, God of the Covenant. (Lucifer Vol.1 #42) He made two beings infused with his might: Michael and Samael as they came undiluted in their task. He wanted them to create the Universe and originate Creation from that point. (Lucifer Vol.1 #26)
This happened to be so old that the tales are spoken through different ages. Such as the Navajo belief system of a world of silence as the first world before Judeo-Christian belief(Before the War) That the entire face of reality has been changed by all the beliefs of humans constantly imagining things. Mike Carey himself expressed the power that dreams hold which refers to what “forces external” meant when the Presence mentioned it. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

Although Lucifer is not a “god” per se, he has many faces across religions including those of the Navajo mythos as Atse'Hashke.
This also shapes not just gods but the highest of orders beyond them such as the Endless. Though the Endless have more freedom when it comes to this but they live by the notion they serve the constraint of humankind and not the opposite way around. (Sandman Vol.2 #16)

Material Plane:
In Vertigo, the main physical reality we see of Yahweh’s Creation seems to contain infinite possibilities which suggests infinite timelines making each universe at least 4-D in nature. Given the nature of the Universe being a totality defined by Yahweh’s will which is infinite would likely suggest infinite worlds as well. (Lucifer Vol.1 #69)

The Endless and many other beings have the power to travel through all worlds and realms at their leisure. The Material is the lowest plane of Reality which contains the Inn of Worlds at the end of time. This place managed to house all inhabitants of reality seasonal storm with a premonition of Dream death which affected all time and space. This should suggest dimensions that some of Lucifer's demons flutter across are infinite containing each space-time continuum. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #2)
  • The Inn: This place is a paradoxical existence that is not part of dreams, death, or darkness. Where it continuously evolves to fit events that can damage all of reality. This place is just not a place but somewhere when where the world ends and connects through every world or realm. (The Sandman Vol.2 #56)
  • City of Aurelia: An ancient charter of land that oversees the plains for tens of thousands of years. Somehow connected to Faerie and led by beings that determine the destination for souls. (The Sandman Vol.2 #52)
  • Necropolis: A charter of land where all the diseased and all the unliving gather to form a city devoided of life. There is not a true Necropolis despite what the residents might think and it’s usually where the ceremony of death with cosmic beings is handled. (The Sandman Vol.2 #51
The material plane sometimes referred to as the waking world would be the mirror opposite of the Dreaming. Given that the Dreaming is bounded on its every infinite side would imply it covets the entire Multiverse(Material Plane). This is pretty evident since the reach of the Endless goes from planets to entire planes including ones like Heaven. (The Sandman Vol.2 #48)

Tiering: The Material Universe contains all of the worlds and their time-space dimensions. Due to how we implied there are infinite worlds and each of them containing its own space-time would equate the Material Universe with equivalve of High 1-B due to infinite spatial dimensions(countable).

Metaphysical Plane:

The planes of these worlds exist beyond those of the material worlds below. The interconnection is a gateway that leads to the worlds of fantasy and fiction to the main reality that is behind those gates. (The Books of Magic Vol.1 #1) Planes like the afterlives are known as Far Realms where they transcend the entirety of the material Universe. (The Sandman Vol.2 #24)
These metaphysical realms are both outside or beyond the Material Plane. Like the worlds in the Multiverse, these realms were being affected by Yahweh's departure since everything was written in his name. (Lucifer Vol.1 #49) So the Cosmos felt ill across all worlds and all realms and without God’s name everyone would fade by inexorable logic. (Lucifer Vol.1 #56) Michael was the only thing holding everyone and everything together until he was interrupted by Lucifer due to the problem with Fenris reaching the World Tree. (Lucifer Vol.1 #53)

Tiering: Clearly, the metaphysical are not all equal in terms of how they define an R>F relationship with the Material Plane.
  • The Dreaming: High 1-B, a facet of reality, well more so the opposite of reality and bound it in its every side.
  • Silver City/Heaven: Low 1-A, Heaven transcends the Universe in a manner of R>F. Outside and beyond the structure of the Material Plane.
  • Hell: Likely Low 1-A, Since Hell, is technically equal to Heaven and the scale of it is near it, it should most likely be Low 1-A.
  • Faerie: Unlisted, Hard to tell what it is. High 1-B, simply due to being a plane outside material.
  • City of Stars: Scales to the entirety of Creation and possibly contains all realms since it reaches out deeper into reality until reaching the realm of Darkness, the realm of Night. High 1-B, possibly Low 1-A.
  • Yggdrasil and Abyss: Not quantifiable and won't be tiered. Possibly Low 1-A.
The Endless:

The Endless is a group of dysfunctional primordials that existed before the gods and the stars including the youngest member. (Sandman Vol.2 #21) They are the faces of reality and define an aspect of the Universe. Within the main Creation are side effects of Yahweh’s deterministic approach to Creation making. (Lucifer Vol.1 #52) These primal ideas of reality define both their concept and their opposite as well. (The Sandman Vol.2 #48) To clarify, these are anthropomorphic beings that are the total personification and not just gods of their concept but the concept itself. Due to that, they are repeating motifs as echoes of the darkness that permeates as wave functions across all time and space of Creation. Beings that are a much older order and more powerful than the gods of human beliefs and would last as long as reality lasts. (The Sandman Vol.2 #29)
Now, I won't be going over the last four since they don't appear as much and they do not have too much to mention. The big three are much more powerful than their younger siblings. (The Sandman Vol.2 #16) This is quite impressive because any of them, if not careful can deform the Universe around them. (The Sandman Vol.2 #64) Quite big when you consider one of the Endless death echoes would reach across all worlds making storms that brew and affect everything across time and space. (The Sandman Vol.2 #67) Though Morpheus took his death willingly without option for the most part it only killed a certain point of view and not the entire concept itself. The next is to become the Endless and get all their memories and transition to their role undiluted. (The Sandman Vol.2 #72)

Tiering: The Endless has shown abilities to affect everything with their action that reaches through all of Creation. Due to being a very big aspect of Reality, they should be High 1-B, possibly Low 1-A.

The First Circle and Ancient Rules:
This ancient council was the one that set the rules and boundaries of the Universe when all was Void. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.2 #1) The rules apply to all versions of The Endless even the ancient ones in space beyond spaces. The Endless abide by the rules set by the Council since the beginning swearing to their laws set upon all things. (The Sandman Vol.2 #42) One of the members “Shekinah” is also known as Glroy because it's a Hebrew word to roughly translates to “In the Glory of the Divine Presence.”He managed to be unaffected by the rebirth of Creation by Dream when eternity was dragged down into nothing and then everything.
Tiering: The First Circle is an ancient group of beings that set the boundaries that even apply to the Endless. Given their nature and the rules applying all Creation, High 1-B, possibly Low 1-A seems to suffice.

The Basanos:


The Basanos are a deck to tarot cards that flesh themself of shape but are so much more real than just cards taking form. They were created by a fallen Angel named Meleos who wanted to chronicle ideas that will be everlasting and he decided to use the Book of Destiny as his big project. However, they were very much flawed. (Lucifer Vol.1 #1)
Tiering: The Basanos are generally depicted to be as copies of the Book of Souls. It only makes sense that they scale to Destiny as High 1-B.

Jin En Moks:


The Jin En Moks are creatures that have existed since the death of the first Cosmos where they float in the Void unaware of other existence. (Lucifer Vol.1 #7) Due to drifting in the Void for so long, they lose their memory of their true form and are bound to the spatiality and temporality of the Cosmos there in until they reunite with their true form. Beings so ancient that they were old before Heaven was built or the War. They even caught the attention of the Host scared for Creation, if they managed to get the gateways. Their old forms were literally bigger than the worlds. (Lucifer Vol.1 #6) This is why when merging with their true form, it would cause a scale of destruction that will destroy Creation as a side-effect. They are gods without flesh and are void, Tohu Ve’Vohu. (Lucifer Vol.1 #21) Beings so old that existed before any demons, Hell, or even a God to create and punish them. Described as power without shape and will without limits. When the destruction of the Universe occurs and all is Void then would they float freely as their true selves. (Lucifer Vol.1 #63)

Tiering: The Jin En Moks could use two keys in their profiles. In their limited state, they could reach High 1-B and Low 1-A for their full state.

Night and Time:


Night and Time are the two primal forces from which all Creations were birth including their children: The Endless. All versions of Creation were possible due to their union as the coming of Night and Time laid the foundation for everything. (The Sandman Vol.2 #4)
Tiering: Night and Time personify concepts older than when the Endless took shape and predate and permeate all versions of Creation. They seem infinite and boundless in nature and thus are Low 1-A as they are beyond Creation and perhaps all of them. The Endless true extent as one singular idea across all Creation would make them likely Low 1-A as opposed to High 1-B within one Creation.



Demiurgic Archangels:

These are a species of primordial Angels that predate Creation. They were made to enact Yahweh’s approach to Creation making giving them an aspect of his infinite. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75) Michael received the Demiurgic Power of God to birth the first matter, Samael Will’s would shape those into stars, and Gabriel would take those shapes and give them patterns and complexity. As Archons of Reality and Demiurges to God, they are his intermediaries who enact his plan hence why Yahweh closed the Circle of Eternity to start the rule with either Michael or Lucifer. (Lucifer Vol.1 #42)
These incredibly powerful beings are the direct descendants of Yahweh. Embodying concepts as fundamental as Power and Will were there for and was the reason for Creation. Loved Yahweh so much, that he would not see all the other beauty he made although they were never needed. They transcend the City, the Host, and all of Creation. (Lucifer Vol.1 #44)

Tiering: Lucifer, Michael, and Elaine are much beyond anything of Creation as they all have the powers to end it at will. They carry part of the Presence powers and are far superior to the Endless. They transcend Creation which contains the Silver City, Hell, Dreaming, and Yggdrasil. This makes them 1-A.

The Mansions of Silence:

The Mansions are a realm far beyond Heaven as you have to cross the eastern side of Heaven which floats above Armaggdeon Plains. This is where Yahweh and Lucifer abandon things that do not fit their needs such as the remnants of the Fallen dead during the War. This is a sort of afterlife for Angels since they do not harbor afterlives like regular humans such as Ibriel when he died. This place is a sort of edge that is the very side of the coin and the face and tail represent Heaven and Hell. (Lucifer Vol.1 #37)
Tiering: The Mansions contain infinite amounts of Creation as well as being an entire realm beyond Heaven. It's Low 1-A.

Yahweh(The Presence):

Yahweh is the God of Covenant/Creation and the Lord of Hosts. (Lucifer Vol.1 #35) He made worlds and created Michael and Lucifer as his second in command to do the same. An order of magnitude higher than that of the Endless and is far beyond the Archangels. (Lucifer Vol.1 #42) His name is written in every atom of Creation as he defines all the anthracite details of the Universe. When he left everything was falling apart. (Lucifer Vol.1 #51) This, of course, was changed when Elaine is the name in Creation and Yahweh no longer has a meaning. (Lucifer Vol.1 #71)
Tiering: The Presence or Yahweh is above Michael and Lucifer in terms of power and scale. Much above the Endless as the God of Creation. His true nature cements him as 1-A.

The Void:

The endless place where there is no time. Where all things happen simultaneously as it's separated by distance and not time. The place from which all things originate and will all return to. The infinite and eternal Void houses all Creations that are birth and destroyed simultaneously and that portion of the Void with all those Creations still amounts to 0 to the Void. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

Tiering: The Void is beyond all dimensionality and all Creations. A place beyond all dimensional hierarchy and all things come from. It's 1-A.
 
Last edited:
Nice to see these threads from you but before I proceed
Tiering: The Material Universe contains all of the worlds and their time-space dimensions. Due to how we implied there are infinite worlds and each of them containing its own space-time would equate the Material Universe with equivalve they're of High 1-B due to infinite spatial dimensions.
I don't really understand this, could you elaborate?

Infinitely branching space-times doesn't mean a hierarchy of infinite spatial dimensions.
 
Infinitely branching space-times doesn't mean a hierarchy of infinite spatial dimensions.
Spatiality applies to all dimensions thus within all the worlds accumulates to infinite spatial dimensions. It's either a hierarchy or a countable infinite dimension, which the latter is best described for Vertigo.
 
Why do the space-times accumulate to infinite dimensions?
There needs to be some reference to at least some sort of dimensions with both features of time and space. The Material Plane encompasses all those dimensions with all the worlds across time and space and each dimension accounts for one set of 4D. That is a countable infinity(infinite set) which is equated to a High 1-B.
 
What do you think about this?
Personally, I'm getting rather worn down by these threads. This thread is absolutely massive, just like the ongoing DeMatteis thread, which itself is massive, and the ongoing Overvoid Duality thread, which is massive.

Another issue is, this thread does not make it clear where and how it is diverging from our current cosmology blog. I can see that things are different, but I can't tell exactly where or what the reasoning is without thoroughly comparing and contrasting each version, which is tedious. It would be far better if the OP instead created a thread arguing for specific changes, providing reasoning and argument, instead of providing his personal edited version of the cosmology blog.
 
Personally, I'm getting rather worn down by these threads. This thread is absolutely massive, just like the ongoing DeMatteis thread, which itself is massive, and the ongoing Overvoid Duality thread, which is massive.

Another issue is, this thread does not make it clear where and how it is diverging from our current cosmology blog. I can see that things are different, but I can't tell exactly where or what the reasoning is without thoroughly comparing and contrasting each version, which is tedious. It would be far better if the OP instead created a thread arguing for specific changes, providing reasoning and argument, instead of providing his personal edited version of the cosmology blog.
I'll keep that in mind but this was already created. So We can wait for those who want to read and compare and contrast this thread from the Cosmology blog.
 
The Material Plane encompasses all those dimensions with all the worlds across time and space and each dimension accounts for one set of 4D. That is a countable infinity(infinite set) which is equated to a High 1-B.
I'm don't really get it, why would an infinite amount of sets, with each set being 4D, result in High 1-B?
 
I'm don't really get it, why would an infinite amount of sets, with each set being 4D, result in High 1-B?
We're taking into account not just of dimensions but space that can contain all those sets. 4-D is specifically just the worlds. The rest is better explained like this:

As specified above, a "dimension" is nothing more than a set of values representing a given direction within a system, and a multi-dimensional space can itself be thought of as a multiplication of several "copies" of these sets. For instance, the 3-dimensional space in which we live is often visualized as the set of all 3-tuples of real numbers (Thus, taking its values from the real number line, R), and is thus the result of the iterated multiplication: R x R x R = R³, likewise, 4-dimensional space is the set of all 4-tuples of real numbers, and is thus equal to R x R x R x R = R⁴, and so on and so forth.

Practically speaking, this means that there is no limit for the number of dimensions which a space can have whatsoever, and one can construct spaces whose dimension corresponds to any cardinal number, including the infinite ones mentioned above. It is not even necessary for us to restrict ourselves to values taken from the real numbers, either: It is also possible to define the space of all n-tuples of cardinal numbers (Which takes its values from V, the class of all sets)
 
I'll keep that in mind but this was already created. So We can wait for those who want to read and compare and contrast this thread from the Cosmology blog.
Can you modify your first post here accordingly, and then tell us here, please?
 
We're taking into account not just of dimensions but space that can contain all those sets. 4-D is specifically just the worlds. The rest is better explained like this:
So you're basically adding up all the dimensions of the universes, and since there's infinite universes, there's infinite dimensions to add to the underlying space?
 
Can you modify your first post here accordingly, and then tell us here, please?
Modify? It should be noted people can read this and why it was created this way. This is a recommended blog, not a replacement unless it gets accepted.

The best I could do was list side by side the different tiering recommendations I had in contrast to the Blog. The explanation is in the thread. The thread would have to be read either way and not wanting to is a matter of preference.
 
Modify? It should be noted people can read this and why it was created this way. This is a recommended blog, not a replacement unless it gets accepted.

The best I could do was list side by side the different tiering recommendations I had in contrast to the Blog. The explanation is in the thread. The thread would have to be read either way and not wanting to is a matter of preference.
That makes it much more difficult to evaluate this thread though.
 
If you're advocating for a complete replacement of our existing Vertigo blog with this, then I am a certain disagree.
It's a “recommendation” and what seems better in some categories will be added or removed. It's not a complete replacement and some information I recommend not changing at all.
 
If you're advocating for a complete replacement of our existing Vertigo blog with this, then I am a certain disagree.
Yes, that does not seem like a good idea after the years of work put into it.
 
most of the information are literally the same.
Okay, but if most of the information is the same, then all of that information should be removed from the CRT and you should focusing on explaining what precisely you wish to change and provide a specific argument and evidence for why it should be changed.
 
Hmmm, yeah I think that's a bit shaky honestly, not that I don't think Neil Gaiman and Mike Carey's cosmology is higher than 1-C but I'm not sure about this set theory logic. Is this based on Ultima?
It's the quantity and numerical of set things, not really set theory with cardinals and branching sets of countable and uncountable.

It works based on the different ways we get to High 1-B but it doesn't dwell too hard in cardinality.
 
Okay, but if most of the information is the same, then all of that information should be removed from the CRT and you should focusing on explaining what precisely you wish to change and provide a specific argument and evidence for why it should be changed.
The changes are there and are meant to be complimented by the thread. However, you'll have to give me time to adjust it to fit how you said it. If you do feel like reading it then it's there.
 
The changes are there and are meant to be complimented by the thread.
In-so doing you have made the thread incredibly difficult to get through, because as is it would likely take hours to read, given how many scans there are and how long the post is, and the changes aren't even clearly defined and thus could only be determined by comparing and contrasting the existing blog, which itself is very long. This is not a practical method of proposing changes. My time is not infinite.
 
The revision of this thread, as I stated, is put in mind, I was only explaining why it was written like that. Not to mention, it took a while to make, and to change it just after it had been published is hard. So while you guys wait for me to change the format to fit a CRT better, we can get more opinions on the matter to those who want to read it while we wait.
 
Personally, I'm getting rather worn down by these threads. This thread is absolutely massive, just like the ongoing DeMatteis thread, which itself is massive, and the ongoing Overvoid Duality thread, which is massive.

Another issue is, this thread does not make it clear where and how it is diverging from our current cosmology blog. I can see that things are different, but I can't tell exactly where or what the reasoning is without thoroughly comparing and contrasting each version, which is tedious. It would be far better if the OP instead created a thread arguing for specific changes, providing reasoning and argument, instead of providing his personal edited version of the cosmology blog.
I don't understand, it only takes a few minutes to read this thread. It shouldn't be this hard. The blog mostly provides information about terminology. What happens if we change these completely? Let's say we are not going to completely change the blog, this problem can be solved with small additions. The Vertigo blog is so simple (please don't take this the wrong way) that it doesn't include any detailed scaling. Scaling is done by scanning the mentioned "infinite possibilities". How can we make a difference against simplistic comments such as "This is beyond that, this is beyond that"? I hope that the fate of this thread will result in the agreement of all of us on a common issue and the approval of our valuable staff.
 
I don't understand, it only takes a few minutes to read this thread.
A few minutes? The OP is over 6000 words. Thats the equivalent of a 12-page document. In addition to, by my count, over 250 different scans. This would take an immense amount of time to read, and IMO that's completely inappropriate for a CRT. The claim that you can read 12 pages of information and 250 scans in "minutes" is patently ridiculous.
 
The revision of this thread, as I stated, is put in mind, I was only explaining why it was written like that. Not to mention, it took a while to make, and to change it just after it had been published is hard. So while you guys wait for me to change the format to fit a CRT better, we can get more opinions on the matter to those who want to read it while we wait.
That seems fine then.
 
A few minutes? The OP is over 6000 words. Thats the equivalent of a 12-page document. In addition to, by my count, over 250 different scans. This would take an immense amount of time to read, and IMO that's completely inappropriate for a CRT. The claim that you can read 12 pages of information and 250 scans in "minutes" is patently ridiculous.
That is a good point though.
 
A few minutes? The OP is over 6000 words. Thats the equivalent of a 12-page document. In addition to, by my count, over 250 different scans. This would take an immense amount of time to read, and IMO that's completely inappropriate for a CRT. The claim that you can read 12 pages of information and 250 scans in "minutes" is patently ridiculous.
Of course, there are points I agree with you on, but there are more points I disagree with. You are against completely changing the Vertigo blog because you think it was determined and created as a result of very long discussions. However, the blog is not very elaborate and detailed. Since you usually answer without reading the thread, you portray a more prejudiced image. I would like you to evaluate the OP first. Or determine a line based on the answers given. After that we can talk about the fate of the blog.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top