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Maybe it's geb because of the hand
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It's just a generic hand that doesn't even look like the Great Evil Beast.
In the actual Swamp Thing story they state that the Great Darkness "is not a fallen angel" and then in Sandman when Lucifer first appear they reference the Great Darkness again as something separate from Lucifer.
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"Wait, what? You know lucifer, Sandman, Animal man and others contribute to DC right? Everything that happens in these comics is applied to the greater dc verse, that's why whenever there's mention of infinte dimensions or outerversal planes we take that as part of canon, just because these comics are not in the same year dosen't negate the fact they can be connected. We have to look consistency, not argue with baseless arguments. You legit are trying to argue that lucifer has it's own version of dc."
Sure. Doesn't change the fact that you're trying to supplant the things that are established from in comics itself with your theory.
All you said are merely speculations, I'm not saying that it can't be connected. But the problem is the one doing the connecting here is you and not a writer. Is your theory that all of this are connected greater than what is actually shown in the storyline?
"What, no. "The darkness not of void" this quote is very vauge, just because it says darkness dosent mean it's geb. Even back in lucifer the void is shown black when the Presence talk to Elaine and helds all of creation in his hand."
You do know that it's only black because the Presence made it so right? The presence was emulating Elaine's home and the night sky with Creation as the moon. And that before that, Elaine was literally in a white void with everything being created as she moves along?
Sure. Doesn't change the fact that you're trying to supplant the things that are established from in comics itself with your theory.
All you said are merely speculations, I'm not saying that it can't be connected. But the problem is the one doing the connecting here is you and not a writer. Is your theory that all of this are connected greater than what is actually shown in the storyline?
"What, no. "The darkness not of void" this quote is very vauge, just because it says darkness dosent mean it's geb. Even back in lucifer the void is shown black when the Presence talk to Elaine and helds all of creation in his hand."
You do know that it's only black because the Presence made it so right? The presence was emulating Elaine's home and the night sky with Creation as the moon. And that before that, Elaine was literally in a white void with everything being created as she moves along?
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Imo the comic says there's other creations in the void with different creators. Silk man is from a different creation. So what mistake did I made? I'm legit using the comic is saying.
I mean was it ever stated that the Presence made it dark? I don't particularly remember it
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"Imo the comic says there's other creations in the void with different creators. Silk man is from a different creation. So what mistake did I made? I'm legit using the comic is saying"
Those creations are just different version of the same creation. That's why all of them collapsed just like when the multiple version of Lucifers collapsed into the single Lucifer.
Those Creators and Creations doesn't exist in the "same time" as the current creation, those creations were said to be Creations/Creators that are either from before the Presence or after the Presence. That's why the timeless nature of Void and the linearity of the Creations are heavily emphasised. That's why there's no wanderer in the Void that is from other Creations that exists "currently" and all of them are either from the future or past versions of creation (The Silk man, Jim En Moks etc)
"I mean was it ever stated that the Presence made it dark? I don't particularly remember it"
Who else could have created it?
They're technically not even at the Void at that point as the Presence created reality around them. The Void is white, it was just hidden under the "carpet of reality" made by the Presence.
Those creations are just different version of the same creation. That's why all of them collapsed just like when the multiple version of Lucifers collapsed into the single Lucifer.
Those Creators and Creations doesn't exist in the "same time" as the current creation, those creations were said to be Creations/Creators that are either from before the Presence or after the Presence. That's why the timeless nature of Void and the linearity of the Creations are heavily emphasised. That's why there's no wanderer in the Void that is from other Creations that exists "currently" and all of them are either from the future or past versions of creation (The Silk man, Jim En Moks etc)
"I mean was it ever stated that the Presence made it dark? I don't particularly remember it"
Who else could have created it?
They're technically not even at the Void at that point as the Presence created reality around them. The Void is white, it was just hidden under the "carpet of reality" made by the Presence.
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If it didn't look like the GEB, no one would have asked if it was. It's one thing to reject the notion, but another to pretend it had no basis. It just comes off as dishonest to try and pretend it was never implied or anything when it clearly was and the author confirmed that intention.
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Hello ladies and gentlemen thunder here. Now i see ppl bringing up lucifer being Geb and I thought to bring up all the evidence of Lucifer being Geb that appeared in his new series. then ill let you all continue your debate.
so way back in like issue 10 or 11 lucifer had a conversation with raguiel in which he hints that he is the shadow that defines his light
later on when he goes to the realm of the hindu gods we see his many different aspects one of which look very much like geb it didnt take long for some to take to twitter with this.
and the reply from the author was the hand was meant to be Geb
then we see the hand again in the very next issue. now if you all have not read vol 4. i do warn you this contains spoilers.
after failing to end his prophecy lucifer enters hell pretty pissed off there he awaits remiel and duma so that he might tell them a vow now lets take a look at that vow shall we?
note that in his vow he calls himself the great beast. now if yall didnt know this which i hope you do geb stands for the great evil beast moving on
Later after Lucifer erases himself from existence the former hunted god pretty much tells us he is the dark
And speaking of the hunted god she and a few other beings were givin gifts can you guess what she was givin?
Well if you guessed geb youd be right she was referred to as the great beast multiple times afterwards
Now the final pieces of evidence come from the final issue. After Lucifer is gone the host decend upon maze demanding word with Lucifer the presence is missing they can no longer feel him. Maze laughs at them and tells them its Lucifer who is gone and its the case that he now never was. Confused the host ask why would god vanish to? Maze replies they shoukd take a better look as to what he was or why he was so different from the rest of them.
Outraged an in disbelief as to what she suggested the host leave a little later we actually get to hear Lucifer's last convo with maze which you can see below
Lucifer tells us that without him there can be no god. And that heaven an hell become very much the same place.
And the page before the image above we find out exactly why that is check it out.
As it turns out Lucifer is the darkness and darkness was needed for light to shape itself so without it light and dark become indistinct which is why the host could no longer sense the presence.
So there you have it folks that's all the evidence i coukd find outta his new story i leave the rest to you all good luck.
so way back in like issue 10 or 11 lucifer had a conversation with raguiel in which he hints that he is the shadow that defines his light
later on when he goes to the realm of the hindu gods we see his many different aspects one of which look very much like geb it didnt take long for some to take to twitter with this.
and the reply from the author was the hand was meant to be Geb
then we see the hand again in the very next issue. now if you all have not read vol 4. i do warn you this contains spoilers.
after failing to end his prophecy lucifer enters hell pretty pissed off there he awaits remiel and duma so that he might tell them a vow now lets take a look at that vow shall we?
note that in his vow he calls himself the great beast. now if yall didnt know this which i hope you do geb stands for the great evil beast moving on
Later after Lucifer erases himself from existence the former hunted god pretty much tells us he is the dark
And speaking of the hunted god she and a few other beings were givin gifts can you guess what she was givin?
Well if you guessed geb youd be right she was referred to as the great beast multiple times afterwards
Now the final pieces of evidence come from the final issue. After Lucifer is gone the host decend upon maze demanding word with Lucifer the presence is missing they can no longer feel him. Maze laughs at them and tells them its Lucifer who is gone and its the case that he now never was. Confused the host ask why would god vanish to? Maze replies they shoukd take a better look as to what he was or why he was so different from the rest of them.
Outraged an in disbelief as to what she suggested the host leave a little later we actually get to hear Lucifer's last convo with maze which you can see below
Lucifer tells us that without him there can be no god. And that heaven an hell become very much the same place.
And the page before the image above we find out exactly why that is check it out.
As it turns out Lucifer is the darkness and darkness was needed for light to shape itself so without it light and dark become indistinct which is why the host could no longer sense the presence.
So there you have it folks that's all the evidence i coukd find outta his new story i leave the rest to you all good luck.
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Matthew, your constant personal attacks against me are getting tiresome. If you prove yourself incapable of behaving properly, we will have to do the same we do with other members who constantly misbehave regarding a specific fiction: Forbid them from taking part in such discussions again.
For the record, I agree about TGEB=Lucifer being one of two conflicting retcons because it was explicit and the writer confirmed it via Twitter, and I upvote and thank people who seem to know what they are talking about and make an effort to help out.
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So then you agree he should be 1-A?
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How is that vague though? You literally have the writer tell us he is geb then you literally have Lucifer referr to himself as the great beast which is what geb stands for then you have the story confirm he is the concept of darkness and evil all that jazz which is what geb is. And the otherkind didn't create Lucifer the presence did stated in one of the scans above he made the darkness
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Anyway, I am not sure how we should properly find solutions to this dilemma. What do you think Sandman31? You are easily one of our most knowledgeable members regarding DC Comics.
Also, I would greatly appreciate if everybody try their best to both be patient and polite and stay on topic.
Also, I would greatly appreciate if everybody try their best to both be patient and polite and stay on topic.
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I do not know. All that I have said above is that the constant incoherent contradictions and reboots between writers are confusing to me, so I need help from people like Sandman31 to try to make sense of it.
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Well because it's kind of just talking about light and darkness which is an analogy made in many comics. The original Darkness was described as more of a horror during the original story but that's besides the point. The point is that the original Darkness was only sliver of the Upside Down Mans power. So if we assume that Lucifer is the original darkness than you're basically implying that Lucifer is equivalent to a sliver of the Upside Down Mans power. Which just supports this upgrade even more. They don't have to create him for this to be possible.
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If we're talking about the original darkness, neither Lucifer nor the Otherkind fit into it.
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I agree about that neither of the conflicting retcons seem to make any sense in relation to the original version of TGEB.
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Yeah, absolutely not. I assume each of them just wanted to pay homage to an author and story they really liked, but neither Lucifer nor the Otherkind nor "a sliver of their power" can fit into that story line.
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Also the majority agreed for the upgrade and I wrote out the AP justification statement. So can we get someone to add it?
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The writer saying something on twitter isn't canon. It doesn't go by editors and its not in the page.
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I don't think the statements that Lucifer is "The Beast" or "The Darkness" are conclusive evidence that he is the Great Evil Beast itself. They are just generic statements about how Lucifer, i.e the Devil, is the darkness which contrasts to God's goodness. This is basic theology stuff. "Evil needs to exist for Goodness to be defined".
I would be surprised if the author of the new Lucifer series ever read or gives a shit about the original Swamp Thing storyline or really anything, he just gleefully ignores all established continuity in his run.
Meanwhile Tynion's Justice League Dark storyline explicitely references the original story multiple times as well as the Morrison and Snyder Cosmology (In broad terms, but he does) and this establishes their very direct connection.
I would be surprised if the author of the new Lucifer series ever read or gives a shit about the original Swamp Thing storyline or really anything, he just gleefully ignores all established continuity in his run.
Meanwhile Tynion's Justice League Dark storyline explicitely references the original story multiple times as well as the Morrison and Snyder Cosmology (In broad terms, but he does) and this establishes their very direct connection.
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Nor do we need it to be. The Great Evil Beast's hand is presented as one of Lucifer's aspects.
If he hadn't, how would he even know what the GEB was and include it's hand in it?
Regardless, the two stories are still incompatible, and retcons don't become "more powerful" with multiple references, a single reference is enough.
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This is how geb was originally discribed.
Before light i was. Etrigan tells us his name is evil he is the complete absence of gods light locked in an endless fight.
Now compare that to Lucifer.
The universe needs dark to shape the light. So like with the original the dark came first
And now we know that Lucifer is the dark
And i quote there is no light without dark. Thats why Lucifer is nessary for father to exist as a defined enitity there must be black for the concept of white to ever exist.
Now to further back this up. After Lucifer erased himself from existence all space time started to collapse because again as the hunted god said it needs the dark to define the light Lucifer is that darkness. Now of course by using his gifts they managed to keep creation going. However due to an act of kindness the universe realized he never was because again he needed to be as bad as all of that because he is the literal concept of darkness. And as a result of this
Everything everywhere changed. Those who were afraid of the shadow no longer were and had no care to kill.There was war in heaven but it ended swiftly and hell would never be
Again no one feared the dark or ever had a young girl doesnt fear death and has no conscious when killing her brother
So what was it that made Lucifer different from his brothers? He is literally the concept of darkness devoid of gods light.
Locked in and endless fight
Sound familiar? Nd thats again ignoring the fact the author stated he was and Lucifer refers to himself as such.
Granted ill admit theyre still inconsistenties but i think its much less now
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There is no evidence it is in the comic itself. The comic only vaguely refers to Lucifer as the darkness opposite to God in theological manners, not literally.
Tynion's story doesn't contradict the original, a fragment of the Great Darkness is still the Great Darkness itself.
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Yes there is, it's the hand avatar resembling the GEB.
Yes, it does. Neither the Otherkind nor the Other Place nor a sliver of them can fit the description of the Great Darkness nor share any of its characteristics.
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Little thing little thing before the light i was what am i? You are evil gods shadow partner complete devoid of his light. Locked in an endless fight
Little thing little thing was is evil?
Evil is a quagmire of ignorance that would drag us down as we climb towards the immortal light
Little thing little thing what is evil for. It exists to be avenged so ppl can see an fear the ruin that comes to oppose the wholy voice an to fear its retribution. Aka to define the light.
I see practically no difference from what is discribed here than what ive already shown.
In both storys the dark came before the light
Geb stands for the great evil beast Lucifer refers to himself as the great beast and showed himself as the same looking hand geb took form as which the author confirmed.
Geb is the ultimate darkness or evil devoid of his light. He exists to define his light Lucifer is the literal concept of darkness or evil. A necessity for all creation. Thats why he was different from his brothers. He also defines his light.
Both are referred to as satan.
Geb came up from hell Lucifer resides there.
Both are locked in and endless fight with god? Am i missing any other similarities?
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This is a strawman.
It says "no fallen angel of leviathan." You're leaving out the "of leviathan" part and misrepresenting the evidence. Lucifer/Satan wouldn't be the Leviathan fallen angel regardless.
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Soul of darkness sounds a lot like concept which Lucifer is literally in his new series.
And thats a nice catch @ deagon besides the dude is no ordinary fallen angel or angel for that matter he is the darkness, evil, the shadow on the wall the monster of every story
And thats a nice catch @ deagon besides the dude is no ordinary fallen angel or angel for that matter he is the darkness, evil, the shadow on the wall the monster of every story
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He is no ordinary fallen angel but he still is one and it’s distinguished in the swamp thing run and by Lucifer himself. Either way this is going a little off track so I’m gonna agree to disagree. This thread is supposed to be about the Upside Down Man and not whether Lucifer is the GEB. So I’m gonna refrain from discussing this and wait for a moderator to help initiate the changes. I’d be very much appreciated if you did the same to help prevent this thread from being further derailed.
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Very well ill not go into that as to not derail just a real quick clarification what i meant was yes Lucifer morningstar is an angel how he is more than that Lucifer morningstar the angel is just an aspect. my main point was the biggest contradiction that Lucifer is geb is in the original sandman Lucifer separates himself from geb. However the fact is Lucifer 2018 and books of magic 2018. The dreaming 2018 etc were put together under one roof the sandman universe was born and this story approved by the same guy who wrote the original story in which the contradiction happens approved of this story.so if anything its a retcon That aside there is quite a few similarities and the clear intent from the mouth of the author. If this is something the mods need to ultimately decide then fine by me
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Where is it stated that way? I just remember lucifer flying through the overvoid and seeing different creations.
Wher is it stated that silk man is from an older creation of the same one? It's literally stated he hope from one creation to another, wouldn't make sense for him to be from an older same creation. And jim en monks were from a different creation which came before yaweh's, I don't remember it's stating it was the same creation.
Ah thanks, people use this scan to say pralaya = void. But it's the overvoid.
Plus I just started reading the unwritten, is the cactean heiracrchy fake?
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I think what we should do is, that make two keys of GEB. One associated with lucifer and one with the other kind. The Presence also has shown far far greater feats than GEB or the other kind for that matter and now he is said to be the Source which is the power of the upside down man. So the Presence now is the source, above geb and the other kind. Lucifer is also geb just in the 2018 timeline.
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This is a far better conclusion than arguing over retcons. Plus the other kinds are definitely 1A, the upside down man is the opposite of hecate, who can make the dreaming possible, dream of the endless is 1A so hecate should be above him. Second, as I mentioned there should be two keys for geb one with lucifer and one with the upside down man. The geb in swampthing can destroy all of creation and the other kind scale to that. Like wise, lucifer will to scale to it.
~~Or say the other kinds are aspects of lucifer....
~~Or say the other kinds are aspects of lucifer....
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