- 15,332
- 7,559
Yeah, the analogy with "middle pillar" cements quite clearly that the Heaven and Hell in question are meant to be the upper and lower points of the Tree, respectively.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Upgrade Yggdrasil/RKT/TWSAIS
- Thread starter Alonik
- Start date
- Status
- 674
- 334
If we are working off of storylines not mentioned in the OP, it would be nice if we could have the name of the storylines for review.
- 32,327
- 20,219
Yggdrasil being a name for the Multiverse / Tree of Life in Ewing's cosmology seems solid. Though I need to see a larger collection of sourced scans for the recent storylines that deal with these concepts. The main issue with the OP was how disjointed it all was.
- 674
- 334
Ewing's cosmology is usually fairly different from how most other Marvel writers see the multiverse, so scaling from him can be tricky, but I can't say I care that much, tbh. I like his perspective on the multiverse better than the old portrayals. I find it more fascinating.
- 32,327
- 20,219
Al Ewing basically rewrote the whole Marvel Cosmology in order to try and make a consistent picture. I actually quite like it.
- 9,702
- 8,367
I think you can find some in this comic-book issue .Matthew Schroeder said:
- 1,050
- 491
I don't know why people have argued that Destiny/Fate/the Norns are greater than full force Living Tribunal, given that LT has spun the wheel of fate in the past.
- 674
- 334
I can generally agree with Ant's assessment of the situation. If we are going to scale Rune King Thor, we should preferably use cosmology that was already in place before/during the publishing of his story.
- 165,372
- 72,666
Given that the "Ragnarok" storyline itself simply wanted to show Thor transcending his father and end the cycle of death and rebirth for the Asgardian gods and their connected 9 universes, I still think that we should consider the feat what it was portrayed as at the time.
In addition, Al Ewing also portrayed Those Who Sit Above In Shadow as dependent on feeding on the life forces of the Asgardians, which would be insignificant if they were Low 1-A, and in conjunction several beings of a tier 10 to 4 scale survived in the void outside of the multiverse, so TWSAIS surviving there as well offers no legitimate proof whatsoever for them being of such a scale.
There is also no legitimate evidence for the Asgardian Norns reaching such a scale or transcending The Living Tribunal.
The only two useful pieces of evidence here seem to be the scan related to the World Tree seed from Matt Fraction's Thor run, and possibly the new information in the Jane Foster comicbook. We still have to be shown that to see if it seems useful and explicit though.
In addition, Al Ewing also portrayed Those Who Sit Above In Shadow as dependent on feeding on the life forces of the Asgardians, which would be insignificant if they were Low 1-A, and in conjunction several beings of a tier 10 to 4 scale survived in the void outside of the multiverse, so TWSAIS surviving there as well offers no legitimate proof whatsoever for them being of such a scale.
There is also no legitimate evidence for the Asgardian Norns reaching such a scale or transcending The Living Tribunal.
The only two useful pieces of evidence here seem to be the scan related to the World Tree seed from Matt Fraction's Thor run, and possibly the new information in the Jane Foster comicbook. We still have to be shown that to see if it seems useful and explicit though.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #253
Given that the "Ragnarok" storyline itself simply wanted to show Thor transcending his father and end the cycle of death and rebirth for the Asgardian gods and their connected 9 universes, I still think that we should consider the feat what it was portrayed as at the time.
I have shown several times in this post, which even at that time yggdrasil was not limited to 9 universes, in the Loki comic of the same time of Ragnarok arc, says that there are infinite realities of Thors and Loki in yggdrasil.
and in conjunction several beings of a tier 10 to 4 scale survived in the void outside of the multiverse,
The only entity that survived there for a while, and couldn't even stay there was Galactus, only being 1-A as the first firmament could stay there.
I have shown several times in this post, which even at that time yggdrasil was not limited to 9 universes, in the Loki comic of the same time of Ragnarok arc, says that there are infinite realities of Thors and Loki in yggdrasil.
and in conjunction several beings of a tier 10 to 4 scale survived in the void outside of the multiverse,
The only entity that survived there for a while, and couldn't even stay there was Galactus, only being 1-A as the first firmament could stay there.
- 165,372
- 72,666
The Ragnarok story happened in 2004. Please show me scans preceeding that which support Low 1-A.
The only entity that survived there for a while, and couldn't even stay there was Galactus, only being 1-A as the first firmament could stay there.
Not true. Loki and a human ghost did, and the Silver Surfer and his human companion did. So did Glorian for that matter.
At this point in time it had not been established that only cosmic entities could survive there.
The only entity that survived there for a while, and couldn't even stay there was Galactus, only being 1-A as the first firmament could stay there.
Not true. Loki and a human ghost did, and the Silver Surfer and his human companion did. So did Glorian for that matter.
At this point in time it had not been established that only cosmic entities could survive there.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #255
The Ragnarok story happened in 2004. Please show me scans preceeding that which support Low 1-A.
I said it wasn't limited to 9 realms, please read right what I said, no one here proved it was limited while I proved several times it wasn't and I was just ignored.
Loki 2004
Not true. Loki and a human ghost did, and the Silver Surfer and his human companion did. So did Glorian for that matter. At this point in time it had not been established that only cosmic entities could survive there.
Yes, it's true. Loki was amped, while Verity survived thanks to Loki's power. Silver Surfer and his new girlfriend didn't do the same, they jumped from Eternity to Shaper, I even showed you it up there, and you just ignored it.
It would be much less tiring if you stopped ignoring what I say, and getting involved with things that's already been answered.
I said it wasn't limited to 9 realms, please read right what I said, no one here proved it was limited while I proved several times it wasn't and I was just ignored.
Loki 2004
Not true. Loki and a human ghost did, and the Silver Surfer and his human companion did. So did Glorian for that matter. At this point in time it had not been established that only cosmic entities could survive there.
Yes, it's true. Loki was amped, while Verity survived thanks to Loki's power. Silver Surfer and his new girlfriend didn't do the same, they jumped from Eternity to Shaper, I even showed you it up there, and you just ignored it.
It would be much less tiring if you stopped ignoring what I say, and getting involved with things that's already been answered.
- 124
- 4
<Yggdrasil - ******* tree, which colllects city-sized realms
>1-A
Lmao
>1-A
Lmao
- 5,779
- 8,095
Like I said earlier, I agree with the upgrades however after hearing from both sides; I'm not sure about tiering but At Least 2-C is indeed far too low of a downplay (considering all the multiversal feats/statements that revolve in Marvel's depiction of Norse myth and those who scale to it as well as the consistent 2-A/low 1-C stuff in 616) however the tier 1 stuff seem to be very contentious from the discussion I'm seeing.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #258
That's because it wasn't focused on Low 1-A/1-A stuffs, but just trying to deny via anything that yggdrasil holds infinite universes, even though it's clear that it holds, and even Odin and Solvong saying it's wrong to believe that Yggdrasil has only 9 universes it was just ignored.
- 165,372
- 72,666
I am afraid that Balder stating that there are many versions of Loki (due to reincarnations via Ragnarok) is not remotely proof of a Low 1-A scale.
The Silver Surfer was clearly shown to be outside of what little remained of Eternity (controlled by Doctor Doom), not constantly within the Shaper's universe, whereas Loki is still the god of stories after this, and has still been beaten or damaged repeatedly by regular superheroes. He was not remotely amplified to a Low 1-A scale either.
Almost none of this seems reliable at all, and reads like an irresponsible attempt to severely exaggerate statistics based on unreliable wild speculation that wouldn't be accepted for most of our other franchises.
The Silver Surfer was clearly shown to be outside of what little remained of Eternity (controlled by Doctor Doom), not constantly within the Shaper's universe, whereas Loki is still the god of stories after this, and has still been beaten or damaged repeatedly by regular superheroes. He was not remotely amplified to a Low 1-A scale either.
Almost none of this seems reliable at all, and reads like an irresponsible attempt to severely exaggerate statistics based on unreliable wild speculation that wouldn't be accepted for most of our other franchises.
- 191
- 49
Ant, you are wrong about Balder. Balder tell to Loki about Lokis in multiverse, the same is said by Karnilla when shows what exist beyond the of Asgard realm, and in this comics, everything is connected by Yggdrasil.
Loki was Low 1-A when he have the stories of multiverse, Current Loki don't show control the stories of gods, this stories are manipuled by Norns in New Multiverse.
Loki was Low 1-A when he have the stories of multiverse, Current Loki don't show control the stories of gods, this stories are manipuled by Norns in New Multiverse.
- 191
- 49
Ant, you are misrepresenting the discussion and idea of consistency that yourself impose, you don't want that story that don't have relation with Ragnarok (2004) to be used, but you use any anti-feat that don't have relation with Thor or any Thor story to downplay every feat of Thor (This happen even in other discussions about Marvel), stop. Makes no sense when we use "X survive in outside" when X not would survive. "TWSAIS aren't Low 1-C because they use asgardian energy", is to say the same as that Galactus shouldn't be above planet level because he eats planet energy, or Superman can't be planet level because he absorbs solar light that has smaller energy.
Even before Ragnarok, in Journey into Mystery, the comics that introduced the story of Thor vol 2 , where we have Yggdrasil like "multiversal system" of planes of existence, and in Thor vol 2, we have the mention about Yggdrasil connect all worlds, even when Thor have thought and memory of all worlds , he goes beyond, Thor with Runes understand the "Time" - Past, Present, Future, he know every thing in science of "man", animal or mineral , and see beyond beyond the quantum structure, the "Cosmic Architecture" of existence, Thor see even the Gunningagap that in Thor comics is the "nothingness" that predate all existence, even the Demiurge and Gaia.
Thor(Ragnarok) vol 2 make reference to events in Thor vol 1, Joruney into Mystery, Avengers Vol 1, and others . Even in different ages, Marvel make reference to his past.
Even in this comics, it was showed that Thor>Yggdrasil , when the Fate Tapestry changed on its ow .(Even Thor speaking that he couldn't)
Even before Ragnarok, in Journey into Mystery, the comics that introduced the story of Thor vol 2 , where we have Yggdrasil like "multiversal system" of planes of existence, and in Thor vol 2, we have the mention about Yggdrasil connect all worlds, even when Thor have thought and memory of all worlds , he goes beyond, Thor with Runes understand the "Time" - Past, Present, Future, he know every thing in science of "man", animal or mineral , and see beyond beyond the quantum structure, the "Cosmic Architecture" of existence, Thor see even the Gunningagap that in Thor comics is the "nothingness" that predate all existence, even the Demiurge and Gaia.
Thor(Ragnarok) vol 2 make reference to events in Thor vol 1, Joruney into Mystery, Avengers Vol 1, and others . Even in different ages, Marvel make reference to his past.
Even in this comics, it was showed that Thor>Yggdrasil , when the Fate Tapestry changed on its ow .(Even Thor speaking that he couldn't)
- 165,372
- 72,666
The classic version of Thor is actually one of my favourite superhero characters, but I am considerably more concerned with not allowing ridiculously extreme exaggerations based on wild unreliable speculation to enter our profiles. The reliability of this wiki is far more important to me than personal bias.
Anyway, I read through all of the linked scans that you provided in your last post, and saw no concrete proof whatsoever for anything remotely approaching the tiers that you want to impose. This thread remains mostly completely biased, speculative, and unreliable.
Anyway, I read through all of the linked scans that you provided in your last post, and saw no concrete proof whatsoever for anything remotely approaching the tiers that you want to impose. This thread remains mostly completely biased, speculative, and unreliable.
- 165,372
- 72,666
The scans in question did not prove anything regarding such a scale for anybody who bothers to actually read them.
Permanently stop trying to turn our internal system for scaling Marvel characters completely messed up, incoherent, exaggerated, and unreliable.
Permanently stop trying to turn our internal system for scaling Marvel characters completely messed up, incoherent, exaggerated, and unreliable.
- 165,372
- 72,666
I have no idea why anybody would agree after actually reading the scans, as with exception of the one with the world tree seed, they do not actually seem to show any concrete proof.
No, you are not. Causing chain reaction scaling to all the universal entities and above to Low 1-A would definitely completely mess up all logical coherence and reliability for Marvel as a whole, and all for what? That you wish one of your favourite characters to seem more powerful than he actually is? I obviously do not approve at all, and find this thread very frustrating and annoying.
No, you are not. Causing chain reaction scaling to all the universal entities and above to Low 1-A would definitely completely mess up all logical coherence and reliability for Marvel as a whole, and all for what? That you wish one of your favourite characters to seem more powerful than he actually is? I obviously do not approve at all, and find this thread very frustrating and annoying.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #267
I do, it's lucidity called.
Yes, i'm.
Causing chain reaction scaling to all the universal entities and above to Low 1-A would definitely completely mess up all logical coherence and reliability for Marvel as a whole, and all for what?
Ant, please stop with this, until people you asked imput on that thread saw that this does not scale to universal entities, we explain this several times, and again you ignored, and likely will ignore again.
That you wish one of your favourite characters to seem more powerful than he actually is? I obviously do not approve at all, and find this thread very frustrating and annoying.
That's what you think, I just came to bring the truth, and so far it's only been ignored and accepted by others, and you're ignoring it, you're just causing nauseas repeating questions that not only me, but other people have already answered it.
Yes, i'm.
Causing chain reaction scaling to all the universal entities and above to Low 1-A would definitely completely mess up all logical coherence and reliability for Marvel as a whole, and all for what?
Ant, please stop with this, until people you asked imput on that thread saw that this does not scale to universal entities, we explain this several times, and again you ignored, and likely will ignore again.
That you wish one of your favourite characters to seem more powerful than he actually is? I obviously do not approve at all, and find this thread very frustrating and annoying.
That's what you think, I just came to bring the truth, and so far it's only been ignored and accepted by others, and you're ignoring it, you're just causing nauseas repeating questions that not only me, but other people have already answered it.
- 15,332
- 7,559
Ant, please stop acting like a borderline chield. You are a bureaucrat, you shouldn't be getting legitimately frustrated over something as inconsequential as a character from a single arc/run becoming 1-A.
- 165,372
- 72,666
@Kepekley
My apologies. I have turned triggered from dealing with extremely unreliable Marvel exaggeration threads for around 5 years now. If this was just about a single character it would be less important, although still very unreliable, but it would also scale to Surtur, all other characters who have ever threatened Yggdrasil, and everybody stronger or comparable to them, and as such we end up with exactly what the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page warns about: Almost 1-A everybody.
My apologies. I have turned triggered from dealing with extremely unreliable Marvel exaggeration threads for around 5 years now. If this was just about a single character it would be less important, although still very unreliable, but it would also scale to Surtur, all other characters who have ever threatened Yggdrasil, and everybody stronger or comparable to them, and as such we end up with exactly what the Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics page warns about: Almost 1-A everybody.
- 674
- 334
I still stand by the assessment that none of OP's original scans provide good evidence that The World Tree is 1-A, Low 1-A, or even 2-A. This includes the scene about the Galactus Seed due to the stories it connects to which clearly continue to suggest it only spawned 9 universes. Comparatively, Driger's scans are even more dubious, rely on charitable interpretations, and struggle to tie together fairly unrelated concepts. I also disagree with scaling The Norns based on a few poetic quotes by Eternity about "the fates."
The one piece of evidence I am sympathetic toward is Kep's argument about more recent portrayals of Yggdrasil by Al Ewing, but I'd still very much like to read the run for myself, and unless something unexpected happens in my readings, I still think Ant is probably right about our inability to retroactively scale Rune King Thor to it.
You can't just keep saying everything has been "proven" when it's very clear that at least 3-4 of the people brought here to evalute the scans disagree. This conversation is going in circles. This is a busy period for me at work, and I'm starting to lose my patience, especially given how I and anybody disagreeing with the upgrade have been talked down to repeatedly on this thread. It's not the rudest I've been spoken to on these forums, but at least try voice your disagreements tactfully.
The one piece of evidence I am sympathetic toward is Kep's argument about more recent portrayals of Yggdrasil by Al Ewing, but I'd still very much like to read the run for myself, and unless something unexpected happens in my readings, I still think Ant is probably right about our inability to retroactively scale Rune King Thor to it.
You can't just keep saying everything has been "proven" when it's very clear that at least 3-4 of the people brought here to evalute the scans disagree. This conversation is going in circles. This is a busy period for me at work, and I'm starting to lose my patience, especially given how I and anybody disagreeing with the upgrade have been talked down to repeatedly on this thread. It's not the rudest I've been spoken to on these forums, but at least try voice your disagreements tactfully.
- 165,372
- 72,666
@ClassicNESfan
Well, for what it is worth, I think that you have been a voice of sanity here, and greatly appreciate your help.
I would also greatly appreciate if all of the staff members here actually read through all of the scans and evaluate them in a critical manner. This risks to completely mess up our entire system for this after all, so scrutiny is necessary.
Well, for what it is worth, I think that you have been a voice of sanity here, and greatly appreciate your help.
I would also greatly appreciate if all of the staff members here actually read through all of the scans and evaluate them in a critical manner. This risks to completely mess up our entire system for this after all, so scrutiny is necessary.
- 674
- 334
I'm afraid that at least a few of the scans need to be read in fuller context to have their proper meanings fully appreciated, but like I said before, I'm rather busy right now, so I'm afraid I don't have the time at this exact moment to go back through and tell you which ones. The storyline about Eric Solvong and the invasion of Yggdrasil? Certainly.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #276
So that's a question more for personal opinion than reason, right?
I showed not only one, but several scans that show that Yggdrasil doesn't have only 9 realms, including when NES picked up and altered the entire context of the comic I refuted it, and still showed 2 clear mentions that Year-Athox is part of the yggdrasil.
I showed not only one, but several scans that show that Yggdrasil doesn't have only 9 realms, including when NES picked up and altered the entire context of the comic I refuted it, and still showed 2 clear mentions that Year-Athox is part of the yggdrasil.
- 957
- 791
- Thread starter
- #277
Btw, it wasn't just me, or driger who realized that the context clearly shows that it has more than 9 or 10 realms, which were what you took the most on foot for don't agree with op.
And it was something no one accepted, and you stayed on this thing that is not at all reliable repeating it deliberately on the thread.
And it was something no one accepted, and you stayed on this thing that is not at all reliable repeating it deliberately on the thread.
- 165,372
- 72,666
Again, please show any scans that clearly prove a Low 1-A scale. I have not seen any so far, if the Yggdrasil seed would only create a limited number of universes, as ClassicNESfan said about the wider context regarding the relevant story.
- 15,332
- 7,559
So far I think 1-A Thor isn't some unreasonable suggestion.
- Status
