Undertale Player Low 1-C Downgrade

[StrymULTRA]

Arrrright, so I'll make this as clear as possible on why Low 1-C Player is definitely wrong.

Seeing as data is not Low 1-C

The first thing is that the Undertale verse is seen as datas from the Player as implied from the Dirty Hacker ending. Seeing as data is not worth for a Higher-Dimensional gap given that datas exist as just electrons, and these two profiles are not 11-A just because they're made of datas. This character also sees the cosmology as a game and they're still 2-C as well. So the reason for Low 1-C is already non-existent as is just a higher degree of 2-B and nothing else.

Scaling issues

Chara absolutely does scale to the Player as they could reach them and take their Soul. Counting how much of a deal the power of the Soul is, this basically implies that Chara has a comparable status with the Player. Low 1-C Player implies Low 1-C Chara, aka that Chara can transcend themselves, which is nonsense.

Lacking information

I have 0 idea on why the Player from Undertale and Deltarune is treated as different when they're the same being. Aka the keys should be merged.

Also they lack the following P&A

• Higher-Dimensional Existence and Large Size (Type 9. They see the whole Undertale and Deltarune worlds as fictional, along with all of their timelines)
• Acausality (Type 4. Existed before the Undertale and Deltarune worlds and sees both of them as fictional, and as such is unbound from them)

I don't think I have to add much else, so let's see what happens.

 

[Oleggator]

Yeah, makes sense, I agree.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I'm assuming you did not read the thread that caused the upgrade.

First of all the dirty hacker ending was seldom brought up and even when it was brought up it was denied a canon ending (despite it being noted on our Sans' profile, so that's probably just their own mistaken opinion). Regardless the dirty hacker ending has little to do with the upgrade, and more to do with Flowey's statements of Undertale being a game.

Secondly, the dirty hacker ending is not just data manipulation, but an actual R>F moment as Sans stated the Player needed to seek the IRL creator to get it fixed. Even if it was pertinent to the upgrade, it goes far beyond what the OP describes making the proposal automatically disingenuous not that it's relevant since, again, the dirty hacker ending isn't used anywhere though it probably should be.

I have my own reasons for disagreeing with the Low 1-C upgrade but this honestly is a very badly formulated reasoning to downgrade it for the reasons stated.

As for everything else, I agree.

In Summary​

Proposal 1 (Downgrade): Disagree, albeit only based on the OP's reasonings.

Proposal 2 (Scaling Chara to the Player): Agree

Proposal 3 (Abilities): Agree.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'm assuming you did not read the thread that caused the upgrade.

First of all the dirty hacker ending was seldom brought up and even when it was brought up it was denied a canon ending (despite it being noted on our Sans' profile, so that's probably just their own mistaken opinion). Regardless the dirty hacker ending has little to do with the upgrade, and more to do with Flowey's statements of Undertale being a game.

Secondly, the dirty hacker ending is not just data manipulation, but an actual R>F moment as Sans stated the Player needed to seek the IRL creator to get it fix. Even if it was pertinent to the upgrade, it goes far beyond what the OP describes not that it's relevant since, again, the dirty hacker ending isn't used anywhere though it probably should be.

That CRT is not absolute and other CRTs can fix the mistakes of previous ones. Flowey statements do not contradict what I say, as a world made of data/simulation can still be a game and yet not being inferior on a dimensional level. Plus I said that the Hacker ending proves the Player seeing the world as datas, and there's 0 reason on why it shouldn't be canon lmao.

I have my own reasons for disagreeing with the Low 1-C upgrade but this honestly is a very badly formulated reasoning to downgrade it for the reasons stated.

Enlighten me then

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with all of these changes

 

[Greatsage13th]

Just wait for Ultima to comment here.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Also, Chara did not take the player's soul, they took Frisk's soul so they shouldn't even be low 1C at all. Where did you get all this from?

 

[CosmicWreck]

That CRT is not absolute and other CRTs can fix the mistakes of previous ones.

Sure, sure, but once someone says something is wrong I expect them to debunk the things that were used to establish a fact, not to go on a completely different train of thought.

Flowey statements do not contradict what I say, as a world made of data/simulation can still be a game and yet not being inferior on a dimensional level.

Oc but your examples are horrible. I would have chosen Doki Doki Literature Club simulations as examples as they're both treated as real as the universes that created them.

Emoji setting basically has nothing in common with Undertale setting as, going by Flowey's plea at the end of the pacifist route the lives of Undertale are not dependent on the Player, nor are they literally made of data so the first two comparisons with other franchises are already pointless.

I also do not know if Stellaris was reviewed according to the Vsbattles R>F rules or if someone just made the profile to their own standards. Profiles are not infallible which is honestly just another reason we don't usually go "but this profile doesn't do that" without going into detail to explain our argument, which you don't.

Plus I said that the Hacker ending proves the Player seeing the world as datas,

Irrelevant. I never called that into question.

and there's 0 reason on why it shouldn't be canon lmao.

Irrelevant. I already said it was likely just their own opinion since it's already noted on Sans' profile.

You also didn't comment on the fact that the dirty hacker ending mentioned the real world and did not just include data manipulation.

Enlighten me then

Sans mention of him getting reports of the manipulation of timelines meshes well with the fact that Alphys, the only person we know he's been working alongside in canon, believes in alternate realities which kind of debunks the whole idea that the Undertale Player "had" to be a higher being in relation to the game which was basically the main reason for the upgrade in the first place.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also, Chara did not take the player's soul, they took Frisk's soul so they shouldn't even be low 1C at all. Where did you get all this from?

Chara talked to the Player and not Frisk at all.

Frisk's Soul was untouched as in the Pacifist Runs after Asgore, Undyne etc still see Frisk's Soul (unless nonexistent Souls count too).

Not to mention that it can't make sense that Frisk has survived the destruction of the game, as they were just Chara's vessel and in the previous Undertale CRTs it was always established that Chara talked with the Player.

Oc but your examples are horrible. I would have chosen Doki Doki Literature Club simulations as examples as they're both treated as real as the universes that created them.

Emoji setting basically has nothing in common with Undertale setting as, going by Flowey's plea at the end of the pacifist route the lives of Undertale are not dependent on the Player, nor are they literally made of data so the first two comparisons with other franchises are already pointless.

I also do not know if Stellaris was reviewed according to the Vsbattles R>F rules or if someone just made the profile to their own standards. Profiles are not infallible which is honestly just another reason we don't usually go "but this profile doesn't do that" without going into detail to explain our argument, which you don't.

What I mean is that seeing as data is not grounds for R>F transcendence, but simply a higher level of 4D as datas are still 3D.

You also didn't comment on the fact that the dirty hacker ending mentioned the real world and did not just include data manipulation.

Real World that can be just a higher 4D.

Sans mention of him getting reports of the manipulation of timelines meshes well with the fact that Alphys, the only person we know he's been working alongside in canon, believes in alternate realities which kind of debunks the whole idea that the Undertale Player "had" to be a higher being in relation to the game which was basically the main reason for the upgrade in the first place.

So Player isn't even HDE?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Chara talked to the Player and not Frisk at all.

Frisk's Soul was untouched as in the Pacifist Runs after Asgore, Undyne etc still see Frisk's Soul (unless nonexistent Souls count too).

You better explain. No one has made this kind of claim at all. This thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.

 

[StrymULTRA]

You better explain. No one has made this kind of claim at all. This thing sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Get up with the times for one.

Now, The Player also is what gives to Chara their name and Chara is aware of this, given that Chara is supposed to be an alter-ego of the Player.

Also on Chara's profile is said that the Player gave to them their Soul.

Not to mention that Chara has returned from the Player's feeling of increasing their stats, as they're the one controlling Frisk. If Chara was awakened from Frisk's desire (which does not make sense as is so blatant that is Chara the MC in the Genocide Run instead and Frisk has not even control on their body), then it doesn't make sense that Frisk has died.

So this is pretty much an argument from incredulity from your part honestly.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Get up with the times for one.

Now, The Player also is what gives to Chara their name and Chara is aware of this, given that Chara is supposed to be an alter-ego of the Player.

Also on Chara's profile is said that the Player gave to them their Soul.

Not to mention that Chara has returned from the Player's feeling of increasing their stats, as they're the one controlling Frisk. If Chara was awakened from Frisk's desire (which does not make sense as is so blatant that is Chara the MC in the Genocide Run instead and Frisk has not even control on their body), then it doesn't make sense that Frisk has died.

So this is pretty much an argument from incredulity from your part honestly.

Explain the parts in bold.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Explain the parts in bold.

Is really explicit that everything in the Undertale world has disappeared, as Chara has destroyed the game files in the folder as well, this should include Frisk, the one the Player uses to interact with Undertale.

Flowey talking in the pacifist run was reffering to the Player, as Chara did not awaken yet, as they explicitly were active again just after the first Genocide, and Flowey at that point was well aware that Chara won't return anymore (at least before a Genocide).

As even explained in their immortality (Types 4, 6, 7, and 8. (Reliant on the player's desire to increase their statistics)), Chara awakened from the Player's desire to increase their statistics, while Frisk instead was just the pawn the Player uses to achieve that goal. If Frisk permanetely dies, the Player can't do much in the Undertale World besides making a True Reset, but from how Chara has damaged the game, that was no longer an option, forcing the Player to give their soul if they wanted to play Undertale again. This also explains why Frisk still has the Soul in the Post-Genocide routes, because it was not them who made the deal with Chara, but the Player.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Is really explicit that everything in the Undertale world has disappeared, as Chara has destroyed the game files in the folder as well, this should include Frisk, the one the Player uses to interact with Undertale.

Flowey talking in the pacifist run was reffering to the Player, as Chara did not awaken yet, as they explicitly were active again just after the first Genocide, and Flowey at that point was well aware that Chara won't return anymore (at least before a Genocide).

As even explained in their immortality (Types 4, 6, 7, and 8. (Reliant on the player's desire to increase their statistics)), Chara awakened from the Player's desire to increase their statistics, while Frisk instead was just the pawn the Player uses to achieve that goal. If Frisk permanetely dies, the Player can't do much in the Undertale World besides making a True Reset, but from how Chara has damaged the game, that was no longer an option, forcing the Player to give their soul if they wanted to play Undertale again. This also explains why Frisk still has the Soul in the Post-Genocide routes, because it was not them who made the deal with Chara, but the Player.

Might need Ultima to check this one. I have no idea whether to agree or to rebutt this.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Proposal 2 (Scaling Chara to the Player): Agree

Low 1-C Asriel then
Same with Low 1-C dura Frisk

 

[StrymULTRA]

Might need Ultima to check this one. I have no idea whether to agree or to rebutt this.

Ultima literally agreed with Flowey talking with the Player lol.

Not to mention that all of this was already accepted on the profiles, this reliance on Ultima is legit unecessary as he's proven wrong several times.

Low 1-C Asriel then
Same with Low 1-C dura Frisk

No. Just no.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ultima literally agreed with Flowey talking with the Player lol.

Not to mention that all of this was already accepted on the profiles, this reliance on Ultima is legit unecessary as he's proven wrong several times.

He also agreed that the player was low 1C. He was the one who got Undertale to low 1C in the first place when efficiente was trying to take it down for almost a month.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He also agreed that the player was low 1C.

Good, I don't care.

He was the one who got Undertale to low 1C in the first place when efficiente was trying to take it down for almost a month.

So? Again, Ultima can be proved wrong, 1-C Minecraft being the prime example.

 

[CosmicWreck]

What I mean is that seeing as data is not grounds for R>F transcendence, but simply a higher level of 4D as datas are still 3D.

Okay, let's just say I'm dumb because I'm not sure what you're alluding to.

Reality-Fiction interaction doesn't work like the way I think you're saying it does.

It doesn't matter what the medium the fiction uses, it's the relationship to the characters and the cosmological structures that matters.

Imagine then, in ascending order: the characters>space-time (save files)>data and us.

So 3D>4D>5D

The whole point is that since space-time continuums are substituents to the mediums, they exist on a lower level and are not the data/comic/game itself but an infinitesimal part of it.

To say otherwise, I think, would be to go against the way in which the site views R>F interaction and thus outside the scope of this thread.

Real World that can be just a higher 4D.

There's also no such thing as a higher 4D. There's even a talk about revising tier 2 since 4 dimensional spaces are already infinite.

So Player isn't even HDE?

Are you?

Jokes aside, your CRT, not mine. I just brought it up since you asked.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Okay, let's just say I'm dumb because I'm not sure what you're alluding to.

Reality-Fiction interaction doesn't work like the way I think you're saying it does.

It doesn't matter what the medium the fiction uses, it's the relationship to the characters and the cosmological structures that matters.

Imagine then, in ascending order: the characters>space-time (save files)>data and us.

So 3D>4D>5D

The whole point is that since space-time continuums are substituents to the mediums, they exist on a lower level and are not the data/comic/game itself but an infinitesimal part of it.

To say otherwise, I think, would be to go against the way in which the site views R>F interaction and thus outside the scope of this thread.

I mean that the space-time of the verse exists as datas and the Player is bigger than such in the same way we are bigger than data beings. Data beings are 10-C and not 11-A for a reason.

Not to mention that on the R/F page:

Author avatars and significant 4th wall breaking instances should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, as not all of them are equal in merit and significance.

This means that not all R/F cases are the same and have to be evalutated based on context. The Player is yes, bigger than the cosmology but not to the point they're 5D. They're simply bigger than a 2-B cosmology.

There's also no such thing as a higher 4D. There's even a talk about revising tier 2 since 4 dimensional spaces are already infinite.

2-B is bigger than 2-C. Degrees of 2-B also exist. I mean that the Player is a bigger degree of 2-B and nothing else.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Good, I don't care.

So? Again, Ultima can be proved wrong, 1-C Minecraft being the prime example.

Ignorance is never blissful my guy. If you want to downgrade the verse at least allow the one who upgraded it to view your claims and counterargue accordingly like a senator Armstrong

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ignorance is never blissful my guy. If you want to downgrade the verse at least allow the one who upgraded it to view your claims and counterargue accordingly like a senator Armstrong

I never said he can't, but his opinion is not absolute and this is not the first CRT where upgrades he has supported were reverted.

 

[Greatsage13th]

I never said he can't, but his opinion is not absolute and this is not the first CRT where upgrades he has supported were reverted.

I never said he is the absolute. What I'm saying is, wait for his response before attempting to apply the changes.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I never said he is the absolute. What I'm saying is, wait for his response before attempting to apply the changes.

He's not even the one making the CRT, @Roachman40 did. Ultima has just supported it.

 

[TioKill]

Arrrright, so I'll make this as clear as possible on why Low 1-C Player is definitely wrong.

Seeing as data is not Low 1-C

The first thing is that the Undertale verse is seen as datas from the Player as implied from the Dirty Hacker ending. Seeing as data is not worth for a Higher-Dimensional gap given that datas exist as just electrons, and these two profiles are not 11-A just because they're made of datas. This character also sees the cosmology as a game and they're still 2-C as well. So the reason for Low 1-C is already non-existent as is just a higher degree of 2-B and nothing else.

Scaling issues

Chara absolutely does scale to the Player as they could reach them and take their Soul. Counting how much of a deal the power of the Soul is, this basically implies that Chara has a comparable status with the Player. Low 1-C Player implies Low 1-C Chara, aka that Chara can transcend themselves, which is nonsense.

Lacking information

I have 0 idea on why the Player from Undertale and Deltarune is treated as different when they're the same being. Aka the keys should be merged.

Also they lack the following P&A

• Higher-Dimensional Existence and Large Size (Type 9. They see the whole Undertale and Deltarune worlds as fictional, along with all of their timelines)
• Acausality (Type 4. Existed before the Undertale and Deltarune worlds and sees both of them as fictional, and as such is unbound from them)

I don't think I have to add much else, so let's see what happens.

I agree.

But no, Undertale Player and Deltarune Player shouldn't be merged. Even if they're the same character, both have different capabilities when it comes to the range of their time manipulation, the Deltarune Player might be either a more experienced version of the Undertale Player (as it was recommended to play Undertale to play Deltarune by Toby), or another version of them.

 

[StrymULTRA]

But no, Undertale Player and Deltarune Player shouldn't be merged. Even if they're the same character, both have different capabilities when it comes to the range of their time manipulation, the Deltarune Player might be either a more experienced version of the Undertale Player (as it was recommended to play Undertale to play Deltarune by Toby), or another version of them.

That's not an argument as you already conceded on them being the same character and their AP mostly comes from size rather than hax, and what you're proposing is not enough for a split.

Not to mention that is just the Player manipulating Deltraune differently given that is a different game with different rules, not that their time manipulation is better or worse.

 

[TioKill]

That's not an argument as you already conceded on them being the same character and their AP mostly comes from size rather than hax, and what you're proposing is not enough for a split.

It is an argument because I never disagreed with them having the same AP, please don't punch the air, you might trip on your own words.


I said they're the same character, they present different capabilities (regardless of the cause), thus they should be the same profile, but different keys.

Not to mention that is just the Player manipulating Deltraune differently given that is a different game with different rules, not that their time manipulation is better or worse.

The rules regarding SAVing and LOADing are essentially the same. The Deltarune version can manipulate three timelines at once. And again, the reason why it's different is irrelevant, they have different capabilities and should be indexed according as separate keys.

("If you fight the player in UT they will have X capabilities, if you fight the player in DT, they will have Y capabilities". Doesn't disagree with them being the same, just acknowledges their differences based on what rulesets they're on)

 

[StrymULTRA]

The rules regarding SAVing and LOADing are essentially the same. The Deltarune version can manipulate three timelines at once. And again, the reason why it's different is irrelevant, they have different capabilities and should be indexed according as separate keys.

("If you fight the player in UT they will have X capabilities, if you fight the player in DT, they will have Y capabilities". Doesn't disagree with them being the same, just acknowledges their differences based on what rulesets they're on)

The fact that they're the same being means that they have the same capabilities over lower worlds.

Also emphasis on the "fighting player in UT/DR". They're a being which exists outside said worlds, not inside, as Player has always existed prior to those and is not bound to these. What they did in these games should be in the same key as is the same being applying to those worlds different actions as the structure of both is different, thus require a different approach rather than literally changing the powers they have.

 

[Greatsage13th]

He's not even the one making the CRT, @Roachman40 did. Ultima has just supported it.

He's the one that approved of the CRT and roach man even specifies that the contents of the op was consulted with him first before he actually did it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

He's the one that approved of the CRT and roach man even specifies that the contents of the op was consulted with him first before he actually did it.

Whatever then.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Whatever then.

Also currently there is a 2B Undertale downgrade at the moment so maybe...head on over there and give your opinion on it?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Also currently there is a 2B Undertale downgrade at the moment so maybe...head on over there and give your opinion on it?

That's a whole other can of worms I'm not getting involved.

This is about the Player and they should be downgraded to whatever rating the cosmology gets.

 

[Arceus0x]

Disagree on merging players cause the evidence is weak af. I mean you used a trailer for the nintendo Switch, obviously it would address players, but i see no evidence for that statement being in canon. The interview thing is no better and unless i missed something, it only talks about undertale and deltarune being in different worlds and having a few connections at best (in which case we can take that as references and characters from undertale being there).

The rest i agree with.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Disagree on merging players cause the evidence is weak af. I mean you used a trailer for the nintendo Switch, obviously it would address players, but i see no evidence for that statement being in canon. The interview thing is no better and unless i missed something, it only talks about undertale and deltarune being in different worlds and having a few connections at best (in which case we can take that as references and characters from undertale being there).

Toby literally does say that is the same entity tho, is not merely promotional hype or whatever

 

[Arceus0x]

Toby literally does say that is the same entity tho, is not merely promotional hype or whatever

Where?

 

[Arceus0x]

and also just please send an actual screenshot and not another link where i have to go down a rabbit hole to find it

 

[StrymULTRA]

Where?

Q: How does this game relate to UNDERTALE? Is it a sequel?

A: Please don't worry too much about that.
Essentially, this is not the world of UNDERTALE.
If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it.
If everyone was happy there, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy.
So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.

To rephrase that, DELTARUNE's world is a different one.
With different characters, that have lived different lives.
A whole new story will happen...

I don't know what you call this kind of game.

It's just a game you can play after you complete UNDERTALE, if you want to.

That's all.

In short is the same player who has played Undertale, and thus is the same entity moving to Deltarune.

 

[Arceus0x]

Q: How does this game relate to UNDERTALE? Is it a sequel?

A: Please don't worry too much about that.
Essentially, this is not the world of UNDERTALE.
If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it.
If everyone was happy there, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy.
So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.

To rephrase that, DELTARUNE's world is a different one.
With different characters, that have lived different lives.
A whole new story will happen...

I don't know what you call this kind of game.

It's just a game you can play after you complete UNDERTALE, if you want to.

That's all.

In short is the same player who has played Undertale, and thus is the same entity moving to Deltarune.

mmmmmmm idk he just goes on to explain that nothing changed and undertale remains untouched and everyone gets a happy ending. I'd say that this isn't enough to justify the two being the same.

 

[StrymULTRA]

mmmmmmm idk he just goes on to explain that nothing changed and undertale remains untouched and everyone gets a happy ending. I'd say that this isn't enough to justify the two being the same.

Playing after Undertale literally means that is the same person. This sounds like argument from incredulity ngl.