Undertale god tier revision

[Andytrenom]

I actually do disagree with Read in that Chara destroying the world meant breaking the barrier as well.

Asriel in his fight against Frisk effortlessly destroyed the timeline which can also be said to include the barrier but, later it was shown that he had to pour everything into an attack in order to destroy it, so destroying the universe that the barrier was part of didn't actually break the barrier.

Still agree with him that a save file isn't a literal timeline.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ugh. So much text. Ill cover that later

your asriel example does somewhat make sense, although asriel likely didnt affect anything outside the underground either going by that. It is likely that the time space in the underground is separated by the barrier as well. Chara destroyed both the underground and the outside world (going by statements) with a single strike. which would have logically destroyed the barrier as well. In fact the barrier is not even visible at the end of genocide.

And ill probably have to shorten some of magis statements as well to make this a bit easier to understand (although i wont try to use it to strawman)

 

[Andytrenom]

your asriel example does somewhat make sense, although asriel likely didnt affect anything outside the underground either going by that. It is likely that the time space in the underground is separated by the barrier as well. Chara destroyed both the underground and the outside world (going by statements) with a single strike. which would have logically destroyed the barrier as well. In fact the barrier is not even visible at the end of genocide.

Oooor it is a simple plot hole. The time-space of the underground and the surface being separated by the barrier kinda goes into too much headcanon territory (Also it gives me flashbacks to some really bad Asriel downplay on comicvine >.<)

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

>I shall destroy this timeline!


Mountain level at best man.

There are also some other problems with it, but the main one would be it being to much of a headcanon like Andy said.

 

[John_Werner]

Legit don't even know what's going on, any more.

me either

 

[Andytrenom]

Test

Edit: For some reason my messages weren't going through before...huh...

 

[DMB_1]

This debate is seems concluded. Most people agree, and the ones who disagree have been mostly debunked.

 

[Andytrenom]

Did we come to a conclusion on what Flowey destroying the save file will now be considered as?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Simply points in time to which you can return to.

 

[Andytrenom]

No I mean what power Flowey would have for destroying the save file.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'll be honest and say that I didn't read through the whole walls of text, but pretty sure that it should simply be powernull. We treat it as that when it's an actual save file that is being affected this way, and honestly nothing else comes to mind to properly describe it.

 

[Andytrenom]

Power null is actually what came to my mind as well.

 

[Read_this_post]

Perhaps you are right about the asriel example. Plus the barrier can be affected by save and load and seemingly the true reset, so i agree that is a plot hole or some weird magical property to it.

 

[DMB_1]

Bump

 

[Read_this_post]

so can we update the profiles? Or do we need someone like ant or mat here?

 

[Read_this_post]

Oh wait... Hes on vacation :/

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I'll just message Azzy, since we can give a tl;dr to him.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, I actually just replayed the game again for the first time in a while to make sure I was remembering everything correctly, and...

I'm a little conflicted, now. I believe this is something that was probably brought up before, but if someone has explained it away, then I'd like to hear why. Please do, because I'm sure as hell not reading through people quoting each other back and forth just to try and find this bit.

I'd kind of forgotten what Flowey says to you after the pacifist ending.

"YOU still have the power to reset everything. Toriel, Sans, Asgore, Alphys, Papyrus, Undyne... If you so choose... Everyone will be ripped from this timeline... and sent back before all of this ever happened."

So apparently, hitting the reset button on your save file does indeed reset the whole timeline, resulting in everyone being sent back to where they were at the start.

This kinda ties in to how explicit it is that Flowey erases your save file right before the Photoshop Flowey fight.

So if resetting a save file is confirmed to just flat out reset the timeline, and Flowey both erases your file onscreen and then makes specific mention of doing so, which leads to you fighting in some weird empty world that he apparently has some sort of control over, what is the uncertain part, here?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have no idea. Flowey does blatant Low 2-C feats at least in destroying the timeline.

 

[Read_this_post]

The thing flowey describes is the true reset. Photoshop flowey never performed a true reset. In fact, that is exactly what asriel was going to do. Flowey is decribing it in a way that doesnt make it sound like you are wiping out everything and resetting it. And true reset doesnt involve resetting a single save file either. And another major difference between the two is that all of the progress can be restored after beating flowey whilst the true reset after pacifist removes all of your progress.

In other words, flowey at the end was talking about true reset. Which is a totally different feat from erasing a save file (which is still just cutting off access to other timelines).

And no. Flowey does not destroy a timeline.

 

[Eficiente]

erases your save file

I completely forget about the "File erased" text, I thought he only shattered that thing. Pretty sure P. Flowey should have EE, right?

 

[Read_this_post]

Cutting off someones access to another timeline is not existence erasure.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That's not what Flowey does though.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The difference between a reset and a true reset is that the true reset also erases Flowey's memories and you can rename the fallen human. It's why Flowey mentions that if you do reset this time, you'll have to erase his memories, as well. That doesn't mean it's the only reset that actually affects anything. A normal reset is nearly identical.

"And another major difference is that all of the progress can be restored whilst the true reset after pacifist removes all of your progress."

Restored from what? Being destroyed? It's restored because six human SOULs do so, which is a thing SOULs do in both other endings. Chara didn't not destroy the world because they were able to restore it, for example.

On top of that, you can't restore a true reset because you're the one doing the resetting. You're choosing to undo everything because you want to start over. There would be no reason to bring it back, which the Anomaly seems to have trouble doing, in the first place.

 

[Eficiente]

Cutting off someones access to another timeline is not existence erasure.

I can agree with a File being a mere access to another timeline, it takes little to no assumptions, but he EE'd at least that access. The EE would come via erasing that, not the timeline.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

How does one reset a timeline by resetting something that is just an access point to said timeline, though?

 

[Eficiente]

By resetting the timeline and not the file/access to the timeline, I would say.

 

[Read_this_post]

Flowey loses all his memories and the fallen human is renamed because you completely change history as a result of your actions. After a normal reset, you cannot change the name because it is impossible to change the past that easily. So a true reset would logically affect the past and the entire timeline(s) going by asriels statement on top of that.

It is the same as what chara did where she wiped out everything and restored it, and yet the progress remained erased. Meanwhile flowey couldnt do anything like that and only thought of the idea when he became asriel. He just cut of access to other timelines by erasing the save files which were easily restored by the souls (which cannot happen after a true reset in pacifist of genocide).

Pf never reset a timeline. And didnt perform anything close to the true reset.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Eficiente But then why would "reset" when used on the file cause the timeline to reset, but using "erase" on the same file not cause the timeline to be erased?

If resetting the save file explicitly resets the timeline, and the two are that closely connected, why are we assuming the save file is just a portal/connection point of some kind? Flowey's dialogue would suggest otherwise.

It's not like we're talking about a SAVE point or something, but the entire file.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Read this post

Again, you are equating "true reset" with "only thing that affects the timeline". That's not what's said.

"It is the same as what chara did where she wiped out everything and restored it, and yet the progress remained erased. Meanwhile flowey couldnt do anything like that and only thought of the idea when he became asriel."

Asriel purges the current timeline and restores it to exactly where it left off just fine. Absolutely nothing says that a timeline cannot be destroyed and then restored to a certain point. In fact, the game shows the exact opposite. Chara would also have no reason to restore the world to a point where everyone is dead, because there's nobody left to kill before reaching the same exact point.

"He just cut of access to other timelines by erasing the save files which were easily restored by the souls (which cannot happen after a true reset in pacifist of genocide)."

I'll ask you to show me in the game where save files are just specified to be "access to other timelines". Flowey's dialogue at the end of the pacifist run would suggest the opposite, and if such dialogue doesn't exist, it's far more of an assumption based on headcanon to assume that save files have no actual relation to the timeline.

"Pf never reset a timeline. And didnt perform anything close to the true reset."

Yeah, he doesn't reset. The dude erases your save file.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I honestly don't have much to say other than "I agree with Azathoth".

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait

Why is Annoying Dog still High 2-A?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because he's not a part of the revisions in this thread?

I also don't think he's been mentioned since near the earlier portions of this thread for like three replies because the other stuff is more important to take care of, first.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Oh, sorry, I'll save that for later.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I should also clarify that regardless, I'm fine with Flowey having some sort of revision, as him not scaling to Chara is acceptable, but that this other shit he does seems pretty blatantly Tier 2.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes. Low 2-C or 2-C is fine for Flowey.

 

[Read_this_post]

But then why would "reset" when used on the file cause the timeline to reset, but using "erase" on the same file not cause the timeline to be erased?

Sorry but true reset causes all of your files to dissapear. You dont use true reset on one save file. Where did you get that from? Also you do realise that if we went by this then we would be downgrading everybody in the verse to low 2-C right? Since true reset would only apply to one timeline, which would contradict 2-C outright.

If resetting the save file explicitly resets the timeline, and the two are that closely connected, why are we assuming the save file is just a portal/connection point of some kind? Flowey's dialogue would suggest otherwise. No. Resetting one file does not reset a timeline. True reset undoes the entire game and takes you to the beginning.

Asriel purges the current timeline and restores it to exactly where it left off just fine. Absolutely nothing says that a timeline cannot be destroyed and then restored to a certain point. In fact, the game shows the exact opposite. Chara would also have no reason to restore the world to a point where everyone is dead, because there's nobody left to kill before reaching the same exact point. There is a big difference between purging the timeline and resetting the entire game (multiple timelines).

I'll ask you to show me in the game where save files are just specified to be "access to other timelines". Flowey's dialogue at the end of the pacifist run would suggest the opposite, and if such dialogue doesn't exist, it's far more of an assumption based on headcanon to assume that save files have no actual relation to the timeline. That is literally what saving and loading is. A save file doesnt physically contain a timeline.

Just to clarify, when chara performs the true reset, she does not destroy one save file. She destroys the entire games reality. If erasing a save file equated to doing the true reset then floweys actions would have logically resulted in everything disappearing the same way it did in genocide. So no, erasing a save file is not erasing the timeline nor is it equivilent to a true reset.

 

[Read_this_post]

What chara did in geno was a delayed true reset. where she performed the true reset which starts off with the erasure, but she did not immediately restore everything

Omega flowey on the other hand erases one save file and it does not erase the games reality the same way chara did.

both performed erasure on completely different levels. charas affecting all of reality whilst floweys affecting a save file which doesnt do anything to the game

If true reset involved just resetting one save file (which would be destroying and recreating) then you would pretty much be saying that flowey would have destroyed everything including frisk like chara did.

And on top of that, it would make the true reset a low 2-C feat, downgrading the verse as a whole since it would logically only be affecting 1 whole timeline.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Sorry but true reset causes all of your files to dissapear. You dont use true reset on one save file. Where did you get that from?"

You can only have access to one save file at a time.

"Also you do realise that if we went by this then we would be downgrading everybody in the verse to low 2-C right? Since true reset would only apply to one timeline, which would contradict 2-C outright."

Except that's not the case at all. Flowey makes six files. Sans confirms multiple timelines. It's just that you only have access to one at a time.

"No. Resetting one file does not reset a timeline. True reset undoes the entire game and takes you to the beginning."

It very much does. It takes everything back to where it started. Flowey just keeps his memories. Again, Flowey states that resetting (he does not specify "true resetting") brings everyone back to the beginning. Please give me something from the game itself that specifies that the reset does not reset the timeline when Flowey says that it does.

"There is a big difference between purging the timeline and resetting the entire game (multiple timelines)."

And it's a difference that doesn't matter here, because we're not talking about Chara (who performed said feat). We're talking about Flowey, who busted one save file and created six others, and Asriel, who dwarfs Flowey and could purge a timeline at a fraction of his power.

"That is literally what saving and loading is. A save file doesnt physically contain a timeline."

Except no, it isn't? Saving creates a point you can return to, and loading lets you return to said point. Your save file is not the point itself, or resetting said file would not cause everything else to be reset, as well.

"Just to clarify, when chara performs the true reset"

Chara does not true reset. Chara destroys the entire world and then restores it. There is a difference.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because otherwise this will go nowhere, I'm going to try and condense things.

Flowey says that resetting your save file will reset the timeline. This suggests that the save file is linked to/contains said timeline of events. Flowey never mentions a "true reset" by name. Just that this time, you'll have to erase his memories, as well.

Flowey destroys your save file. Flowey creates six more save files. These are both Tier 2.


If this is about tiering Flowey and Asriel, then nothing else really matters right now but this.

If you want to show that a save file does not contain the current timeline, please give me actual dialogue from the game, like that I have provided. Because if I post dialogue of Flowey suggesting that your save file contains the timeline and that resetting it will reset the timeline, I can't really have an actual argument if you just disagree with it without other explicit instances from the game to disprove it.