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Undertale god tier revision

About the Chara vs Photoshop Flowey issue

I agree with Chara>Flowey. The counter argument is "Photoshop flowey > The Anomoly=Chara" but the player's DT potency on the genocide route isn't on the same level as the neutral route, there is no proof of that.

About "Omega flowey is superior because of his lv 9999 stats" i agree except for "LV 20 in neutral route" because that never happened lol.
And yes, there is no proof Chara has 99 ATK and DEF, that's genocide Frisk's stats (a different character), also the true power of Chara is on the genocide ending.

Heck even flowey admits that the "ability to erase EVERYTHING" is a power Flowey wanted to used but he couldn't lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tI0Pb_z4HSU


About the "SAVE FILE=TIMELINE" issue...

Here's some info which could help with the revisions:

A SAVE FILE can exist even if you didn't save your progress on there.
Evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJxTZ-Dc1yg (50:04)

When Asriel purged the timeline, Asriel's SAVE FILE hasn't been erased. This prove SAVE FILE can exist even if the main timeline have been erased. Therefore a SAVE FILE could be a separate timeline and if you destroy it then it's a 4D feat. This should support Tier 2 Photoshop Flowey
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r48DYn2I6M4 (24:15)
 
First paragraph is pretty much what i am saying. Save files themselves are not separate timelines. They have access to separate timelines. Asriel purging the timeline and having a save file remain elsewhere actually solidifies multiple timelines existing, however it still only means those save files only let you access the timelines as explained earlier. Apart from that this is very good.

But just to let you know. when you post links, use the square bracket [ post the link, leave a space, post a word and enclose it with another square bracket ]. That word will become the link itself and will make it easier for people to read and understand. Remember to do this as much as possible (except for chat). Hope that was helpful.
 
@Read this post

"It still involves creating save files, which flowey himself is knowledgeable on as well. It really isnt. Flowey saving and loading efficiently is not a power feat, it is a hax feat. He is just capable of forcing frisk to reload."

It may be hax feat for Flowey and using it to force Frisk to reload is just one of the things he did, Photoshop Flowey used his ability to save & load on a bigger scale as he was able to reload and save entire timelines and this would also scale to his AP regardless.

"That sounds almost like burden of proof. But no. Save files storing events does not mean storing the whole timelines. If you save at a certain point in the game, every event that has happened before that point will be a part of that timeline. If you return to that point, all of those events would have now taken place, and yet the save file is still a certain point in that timeline. The save file just allows you to go back to a specific point where those memories have already taken place. Meaning those memories "information" is now restored. But that doesnt mean that the save file physically encompasses the timeline. It just means it is a point where all of those events have taken place, meaning the events have been "saved" or "stored"."

I highly doubt that such information like storing a collection of events (which is what a timeline basically is) is stored anywhere other than a Save File. A save point* is a certain point in the timeline, a save file just allows you reload to the timeline and back to the last save point you left off at. Lastly, its more like a save point is a specified point where all events taken place and the save file allows you access to that collection of events.

"True reset is something you do to the entire game. It wipes everything out (like chara did in genocide) and reeboots everything. It is very different from wiping out save files."

You get the point & it is rather the same difference really but that is besides the point.

"that was me quoting you. But i forgot to add the speech marks :p. My mistake."

Mb, I should've noticed that sooner.

"He didnt. He just changed some of the gameplay mechanics to make a fight different from most others. Plus controlling frisk and using the fight option when it shows up is a gameplay mechanic. The creation of his world is just a hyperbole like i have mentioned. Changing aspects of the game still does not mean changing the entire reality of the game. If we went by that logic then any toon force user would be universal+ or higher. Also chara erased all gameplay mechanics and ended up reducing it to a blank screen as a result."

Yes he did actually and the reason behind of how it was possible to fight him was due to the 6 Human SOULs giving Frisk outisde help.

>hyperbole

No it isn't my guy, Photoshop Flowey objectively outright done this after having to mess with the game's coding which allowed him to create his world which was just a vast void of nothingness which contained nothing but your Save File in which Photoshop Flowey then destroys right after doing an attempt to save your file. Also, that's an association fallacy and Photoshop Flowey erased it too, he can give it back to you or take it away whatever he feels like it.

"Nope. He just negged frisks abilities and changed how the game works, mostly to combat frisk."

The way Photoshop Flowey done this involved creating his world and etc. which I already just explained in my previous response.

"Im pretty sure floweys statement was debunked in more ways than one already. The anomaly giving chara the power to destroy the games reality with a single strike with no way of defeating them or utilising gameplay to defeat them is easily enough to put them above flowey. Also im pretty sure this is burden of proof. Since there is nothing to suggest flowey above chara or the player without assumptions or headcannon, his tier should be changed to unknown."

I doubt it and it is rather the opposite, Flowey's statement is reliable. Photoshop Flowey can completely remove & give it back to you whereas Chara can only prevent you from using them. This 1 reason you provided to back up Chara only proves they should be comparable or around Photoshop Flowey's level of power but not higher. Photoshop Flowey's tier is fine of where it currently is.
 
@Ricsi

"I don't care how other sacefiles work. Unless you can prove it's the case here, they don't. Because saying that this are normal savefiles in any way is just wrong."

There's no reason to prove the fact that this is basically how all Save Files works in all video games. That's the main function of a Save File and the information & data you save, add, and/or overwrite doesn't go anywhere but in a save file.

"That doesn't prove your point at all. You are claiming that every one of your actions creates a different timeline.

This. Needs. Proof."

There are various neutral endings, a route where Chara exists, and a route where only Asriel exists and you are telling me that doing certain major actions in the game has no effect on the original timeline and doesn't lead to the creation of a new one? That doesn't make any sense at all.

"And Deltarune? Why did you bring that up here? I didn't, and Deltarune is specifically the antithesis of Undertale."

I use that as a good example of the difference between how in Deltarune, your choices doesn't matter and the original timeline doesn't changes regardless of what you do and what you change whereas Undertale is Deltarune's opposite regarding only those aspects in the game.

"He overpowered a normal run frisk. Asriel couldn't overpower a Pacifist run frisk."

Everyone already knows that & Asriel couldn't overpower pacifist Frisk due to using their DT to its fullest extent against Asriel to counter his attacks and idk why this needs to be pointed out for.

"Flowey never programmed anything. And there is no reason to assume that what he added was done through information manipulation. Not that it matters here. Omega doesn't scale to Chara."

Never said Flowey had to program anything. The way Flowey added his world did involved the use of information manipulation and Photoshop Flowey is superior to Chara which I explained why quite enough times already.

"...What? This is like trying to datamine things and expect people to take it as canon."

It isn't datamining as it actually happened to the game and you can actually see it happening too.
 
What other games do doesn't matter. That is a fallacy as pointed out already.

This isn't proof that each ending is it's own universe, especially since once you get chara it will stay in every ending. The fact that you make an important decision in life doesn't mean that you just created a different timeline for the decision.

Don't bring up deltarune. Whenever butterfly effect existst assuming you create dimensions with every one of your actions is something you have not proved.

It needs to be pointed out because genocide frisk is at the peak of their power and because chara is stronger than frisk in any run.

No. You just said he is and gave horrible reasons that we already disproved.

I jist won't bother. The majority agreed here and gave reasoning to why they agree. Whenever you think your right or not will not have the opinions of others bow down to it.
 
No. I say the Undertale god tiers stay the same expect Asriel Dreemurr should be at least 2-A likely higher in base form and at least 2-A likely far higher in his Angel of death form since he's infinitely stronger than Frisk, Flowey, Chara and The Anomaly combined.

(I'm not replying to Risci btw)
 
Whatever you said doesn't matter when your reasoning is horrible.

Asriel has no reasoning to be 2-A, and omega flowey has no feats that make him stronger than chara.
 
Which is still low 2-C at best, because infinite multipliers don't allow to get to a higher tier, as it's been discussed and agreed on.
 
Read this post said:
"But just to let you know. when you post links, use the square bracket [ post the link, leave a space, post a word and enclose it with another square bracket ]. That word will become the link itself and will make it easier for people to read and understand. Remember to do this as much as possible (except for chat). Hope that was helpful"
Click to expand...
Thanks
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
Which is still low 2-C at best, because infinite multipliers don't allow to get to a higher tier, as it's been discussed and agreed on.
Click to expand...
It won't be low 2-C at best of Chara is already 2-B.
 
So you really don't understand. Flowey doesn't scale to chara, by extension, nor does asriel. That means that asriel's best feat is being infinitly above omega, which is still low 2-C because the differwnce between Low 2-C and 2-C is more then infinite.
 
Andytrenom said:
@Ricsi It's unquantifiable, not confirmed to be more than infinite
Click to expand...
It was agreed on that an infinite multipkier ian't enough to breach it, so we srill assume it is.
 
It was agreed on that an infinite multipkier ian't enough to breach it, so we srill assume it is.

This is false.
 
What is false? It was the whole reason for downgrades, that multipliers aren't enough to breach the distance between two universes.
 
@Ricsi

We don't allow an infinite multiplier to automatically reach 2-C because we don't know what the gap needed to reach 2-C is. We don't claim that the difference being bigger than infinity is true and the alternative is false.
 
Well, yes, I should have prehaps worded it better. I know that this is all obviously theorical, however, we still don't accept it.
 
@magi hussie

"It may be hax feat for Flowey and using it to force Frisk to reload is just one of the things he did, Photoshop Flowey used his ability to save & load on a bigger scale as he was able to reload and save entire timelines and this would also scale to his AP regardless."

Reloading and saving is just sending people to those points and creating access points to those timelines. I have proven this repeatedly.

"I highly doubt that such information like storing a collection of events (which is what a timeline basically is) is stored anywhere other than a Save File. A save point* is a certain point in the timeline, a save file just allows you reload to the timeline and back to the last save point you left off at. Lastly, its more like a save point is a specified point where all events taken place and the save file allows you access to that collection of events."

Im pretty sure that is a naming fallacy. Just because a save file is named that way, that doesnt mean it works that way. If we started using names alone to define how everything works the we would be giving people like saitama 1 hit ko simply because of their name.

That is not how it works at all. Lets say that i placed a beacon in another timeline, and i had a button that teleports me to the beacon, at the time that i set it, in that timeline. All of the events in that timeline are not stored and by accessing that beacon, i can now return to that history of those events. Those events are now stored from my perspective. but that doesnt mean the beacon encompasses the entire timeline. It just saves those events that have happened in that timeline from my perspective. If the beacon is destroys along with the button, then i have no way of getting back to that timeline, meaning that those events are gone forever and all of the information on that timeline is gone as well. the timeline itself was not erased. I just cant get to the timeline or experience that alternate history. Meaning the events are completely lost.

"You get the point & it is rather the same difference really but that is besides the point."

It doesnt prove anything. Using true reset erases time. removing a save file does not.

"Yes he did actually and the reason behind of how it was possible to fight him was due to the 6 Human SOULs giving Frisk outisde help."

The souls were not giving frisk outside help at the start of the fight. At the beginning you are able to control frisk and utilise gameplay mechanics to even damage flowey.

">hyperbole No it isn't my guy, Photoshop Flowey objectively outright done this after having to mess with the game's coding which allowed him to create his world which was just a vast void of nothingness which contained nothing but your Save File in which Photoshop Flowey then destroys right after doing an attempt to save your file. Also, that's an association fallacy and Photoshop Flowey erased it too, he can give it back to you or take it away whatever he feels like it."

Your "his world" argument is a massive circular argument. Your logic is basically "he created his world > this is true because he messes with the coding and save files > we know this is 4D because he did it by creating his world".

Creating an empty room and destroying frisks abilities to go to another timeline is not 4D. Saying this is his world is simply a hyperbole to say how at that point he can do whatever he wants with frisk.

Pointing out the standards isnt an association fallacy. an association fallacy would be saying "if flowey is 2-B then so are all toon force users are 2-B) without explanation. If one character gets a 4D rating for messing with physics whilst another one doesnt then that outright double standards.

"The way Photoshop Flowey done this involved creating his world and etc. which I already just explained in my previous response."

He never created his own actual seperate world. There is no evidence for that. Lets say that flowey replaced the term "his world" with "welcome to hell". Would you then say that flowey created hell? of course not. Both statements are just his way of boasting that he can do whatever he wants, mainly to frisk since he has control over frisks abilities.

"I doubt it and it is rather the opposite, Flowey's statement is reliable. Photoshop Flowey can completely remove & give it back to you whereas Chara can only prevent you from using them. This 1 reason you provided to back up Chara only proves they should be comparable or around Photoshop Flowey's level of power but not higher. Photoshop Flowey's tier is fine of where it currently is."

Photoshop flowey only removes save files and gives it back with frisk still being able to exist and the game still functioning. It is just stopping access to timelines. Chara can erase the entire game and bring it back. I gave several reasons his statement isnt reliable. His end goal was to become asriel, it wasnt referring to a fully powered chara etc. Nothing i have said has implied chara to be inferior of comparable to flowey.
 
@Ricsi viragosi No offence, but a lot of your points are not really stuff i am trying to argue at all and is making things confusing and starting to derail a little btt. I think those arguments are better for a different content revision altogether, especially if you think certain characters are low 2-C.
 
Apathetheticskell No. Chara does not have those stats. That is already refuted. Omega flowey does not have 2-B feats as already explained. All of these are claims i have refuted already
 
Oh and one more thing i should add. When chara destroys the game, she destroys both the underground, outside world and timelines with a single strike. this would logically include the barrier as well. Six human souls is not enough to shatter or do anything to the barrier apart from maybe letting someone pass through (even though you would likely still require a monster soul). Which on its own proves charas superiority to omega flowey.

Furthermore, flowey never had a monster soul to let him pass through the barrier. Meaning there is likely no way he could possibly affect humanity. Yet his intro involved him making humanity disappear without a trace. The fact that this would logically be impossible for him to accomplish based on the physics of the barrier and souls shows that he is clearly making stuff up on his intro, most likely including his lv, stats and real world quote.

So yes. things like lv 9999 and his world are more likely hyperboles since flowey can easily change gameplay mechanics to exaggerate his own power.
 
Currently Asriel speed is immensurable because he is superior to Photoshop Flowey who is immensurable because he is beyond basic space and time.

But since it's sorta vague that "Destroy a SAVE FILE=Tier 2 feat" then.. what will be Photoshop Flowey's speed? If Flowey lose his immensurable speed then Asriel should only has infinite speed due to moving after the timeline was purged.
 
Photoshop flowey really just cut off frisks access to other timelines. It is not even infinite for flowey. I supposed asriel would be infinite. Although wouldnt moving in a timeless void logically be beyond basic time and space? It seems kind of wierd to me that a character unaffected by the erasure of all of time is still not immeasurable.
 
@Ricsi

"What other games do doesn't matter. That is a fallacy as pointed out already."

There is no fallacy for something already been established in all games for over a very long time.

"This isn't proof that each ending is it's own universe, especially since once you get chara it will stay in every ending. The fact that you make an important decision in life doesn't mean that you just created a different timeline for the decision."

All of these endings are not mixed together, they happen separately in their own timeline (in other words, the neutral route creates a branch of multiple alternate endings that exists separately from each other) which depends on specific choices you make when interacting with the main characters in Undertale.

"Don't bring up deltarune. Whenever butterfly effect existst assuming you create dimensions with every one of your actions is something you have not proved."

You misinterpreted my claim regarding doing actions that leads to the creation of a new timeline. Certain & specific =/= every, idk why you took that out of context and falsely assumed that I claimed every actions when its actually specific ones.

"It needs to be pointed out because genocide frisk is at the peak of their power and because chara is stronger than frisk in any run."

Okay but regardless, this is still something we already know anyways.

"No. You just said he is and gave horrible reasons that we already disproved."

You literally disproved nothing that he should be lower than Chara.

"I jist won't bother. The majority agreed here and gave reasoning to why they agree. Whenever you think your right or not will not have the opinions of others bow down to it."

Regardless, their reasons is not enough, at best they are only backing up the conclusion that Chara should be either comparable to or around Photoshop Flowey's level of power but not above him (which that is still lacking atm).
 
@Read this post

"Reloading and saving is just sending people to those points and creating access points to those timelines. I have proven this repeatedly."

That's just the basic understanding of what Photoshop Flowey did as used this ability to save entire timelines and reload back to them so he always has to access & go back to whichever timeline he last saved from using his 6 Save Files. Anyways, since this needs no further explanation, I'm moving on.

"Im pretty sure that is a naming fallacy. Just because a save file is named that way, that doesnt mean it works that way. If we started using names alone to define how everything works the we would be giving people like saitama 1 hit ko simply because of their name."

Unless the Save File in Undertale has a different function (which it clearly doesn't) instead the original function that it originally and generally has, then your claim is false until proven otherwise.

"That is not how it works at all. Lets say that i placed a beacon in another timeline, and i had a button that teleports me to the beacon, at the time that i set it, in that timeline. All of the events in that timeline are not stored and by accessing that beacon, i can now return to that history of those events. Those events are now stored from my perspective. but that doesnt mean the beacon encompasses the entire timeline. It just saves those events that have happened in that timeline from my perspective. If the beacon is destroys along with the button, then i have no way of getting back to that timeline, meaning that those events are gone forever and all of the information on that timeline is gone as well. the timeline itself was not erased. I just cant get to the timeline or experience that alternate history. Meaning the events are completely lost."

This is a good example how the save point (the yellow star that is a manifestation of your Determination) works.

"It doesnt prove anything. Using true reset erases time. removing a save file does not."

Erasing the Save File does also erases the time that was saved in it, there wouldn't be a specific time saved you were in the timeline if it didn't.

"The souls were not giving frisk outside help at the start of the fight. At the beginning you are able to control frisk and utilise gameplay mechanics to even damage flowey."

Photoshop Flowey already knows you can't permanently defeat them, so him allowing you to have the opportunity to fight him or not ends up being completely pointless at the end.

">hyperbole No it isn't my guy, Photoshop Flowey objectively outright done this after having to mess with the game's coding which allowed him to create his world which was just a vast void of nothingness which contained nothing but your Save File in which Photoshop Flowey then destroys right after doing an attempt to save your file. Also, that's an association fallacy and Photoshop Flowey erased it too, he can give it back to you or take it away whatever he feels like it."

"Your "his world" argument is a massive circular argument. Your logic is basically "he created his world > this is true because he messes with the coding and save files > we know this is 4D because he did it by creating his world"."

Either way, claiming that its a hyperbole is an unproven assumption which has already been disproven by the game itself. End of story.

"Creating an empty room and destroying frisks abilities to go to another timeline is not 4D. Saying this is his world is simply a hyperbole to say how at that point he can do whatever he wants with frisk."

It's not exactly a empty room but more like an empty domain and having control over multiple timelines through his Save Files, however, is 4D. This is not a good reason to throw this off as a hyperbole when he already displayed the power to create an entire world of his own to mess with Frisk.

"Pointing out the standards isnt an association fallacy. an association fallacy would be saying "if flowey is 2-B then so are all toon force users are 2-B) without explanation. If one character gets a 4D rating for messing with physics whilst another one doesnt then that outright double standards."

Photoshop Flowey's 4-D feats has nothing to do with messing with the laws of physics, so there's no reason to compare him to toonforce users.

"He never created his own actual seperate world. There is no evidence for that. Lets say that flowey replaced the term "his world" with "welcome to hell". Would you then say that flowey created hell? of course not. Both statements are just his way of boasting that he can do whatever he wants, mainly to frisk since he has control over frisks abilities."

Photoshop Flowey wouldn't have to mess with the coding to create his own reality if he didn't, so claiming that he didn't is already proven false by the game itself.

"Photoshop flowey only removes save files and gives it back with frisk still being able to exist and the game still functioning. It is just stopping access to timelines. Chara can erase the entire game and bring it back. I gave several reasons his statement isnt reliable. His end goal was to become asriel, it wasnt referring to a fully powered chara etc. Nothing i have said has implied chara to be inferior of comparable to flowey."

Photoshop Flowey reloads the Save File to allow Frisk to keep existing so he can torture them by continuously killing them just for fun. Photoshop Flowey gave them a Save File as a replacement for the one he destroyed earlier but they can't save their Save File except for Photoshop Flowey. Chara needs your soul to restore it, they can't restore what was already destroyed by themselves and I gave statements that Flowey's statement is. Never said you directly implied of sort which was a misinterpretation of what I mentioned relating to that.
 
Magi Hussie Most of this is just circular argument and burden of proof at this point. P.s. you forgot to mention my proof that there is no way for omega flowey to be superior to chara due to the physics of the barrier.

That's just the basic understanding of what Photoshop Flowey did as used this ability to save entire timelines and reload back to them so he always has to access & go back to whichever timeline he last saved from using his 6 Save Files. Anyways, since this needs no further explanation, I'm moving on.

And all of that is time travel. He saved the information to those timelines. However as i have said before, storing information =/= physically storing the entire timeline. Also creating 6 save files is just him saving six times and making you reload. It something even frisk can do and does not put him above the anomoly.

Unless the Save File in Undertale has a different function (which it clearly doesn't) instead the original function that it originally and generally has, then your claim is false until proven otherwise.

Still sounds like burden of proof. The function of save files is allowing you to access a certain point in that timeline where all of your progress in that timeline still exists therefore meaning it "stores information". And again, storing information does not quantify to storing the timeline itself nor would it be quantifiable in the first place.

This is a good example how the save point (the yellow star that is a manifestation of your Determination) works.

You have missed my point. My point is how saving the information of those timelines does not equate to storing the the entire timelines themselves and erasing them when you delete the save files. Cutting off a save file is just cutting off access to that save point. The save file is simply something that takes you to that save point. Plus the save file would be the equivilent of the button that you would push to take you to the beacon. Yet it doesnt mean that the button is a timeline. It just means that the button is linked to that point in that timeline. Same can be said for save files

Erasing the Save File does also erases the time that was saved in it, there wouldn't be a specific time saved you were in the timeline if it didn't.

Um, what? A save file storing an entire timeline would actually be the thing to contradict having a specific save point. If the save file physically stored the entire timeline, then it wouldnt even take you to a certain point. It would just let you do basic time travel where you could end up at any point. It doesnt erase the time stored within it. It erases your progress simply because you no longer have access to that timeline or whatever you did in it.

Photoshop Flowey already knows you can't permanently defeat them, so him allowing you to have the opportunity to fight him or not ends up being completely pointless at the end.

If flowey cut off the opportunity to even use frisk or play the game by completely erasing it (which he cant) then there would be no way for the player to beat him. Just like how the player cant defeat chara due to what she does. And again, altering gameplay mechanics just cuts off frisks abilities.

Either way, claiming that its a hyperbole is an unproven assumption which has already been disproven by the game itself. End of story.

Burden of proof fallacy. I gave an example as to how it is a hyperbole. Saying his world is an entire timeline is a massive claim that needs proof to back it up. Not circular logic.

It's not exactly a empty room but more like an empty domain and having control over multiple timelines through his Save Files, however, is 4D. This is not a good reason to throw this off as a hyperbole when he already displayed the power to create an entire world of his own to mess with Frisk.

This is a lot of headcannon. It has never shown to be anything more than a black room. Save files are not timelines and this realm doesnt contain those timelines at all. All of this seems to be using recycled arguments again. His world isnt even something he uses to control save files. He just uses it to fight frisk within it. At best it is a pocket dimension.

Photoshop Flowey's 4-D feats has nothing to do with messing with the laws of physics, so there's no reason to compare him to toonforce users.

My point is that manipulating gameplay mechanics or changing physics isnt 4D as it is something someone who isnt 4D can do.

Photoshop Flowey wouldn't have to mess with the coding to create his own reality if he didn't, so claiming that he didn't is already proven false by the game itself.

What are you talking about? Flowey has never even directly interacted with coding. Are you talking about what happens in the game files? Because what happens in the game files is not cannon and is affected by everything that goes on in the game. Sorry but your sentence doesnt even make any sense here.

Photoshop Flowey reloads the Save File to allow Frisk to keep existing so he can torture them by continuously killing them just for fun. Photoshop Flowey gave them a Save File as a replacement for the one he destroyed earlier but they can't save their Save File except for Photoshop Flowey. Chara needs your soul to restore it, they can't restore what was already destroyed by themselves and I gave statements that Flowey's statement is. Never said you directly implied of sort which was a misinterpretation of what I mentioned relating to that.

And again, taking control over the save system is just taking control of frisks abilities. You are missing the point. Flowey removed and controlled save files. Chara destroyed the game. On top of that it is questionable whether she actually needed the players soul or not. Either way, flowey being above or comparable to chara or the player is inconsistent as mentioned in a previous comment.
 
The dicsussion is mostly that Omega scales aboe chara, that every save file is Low 2-C because save files contain information by defintion and that Flowey is 2-B for creating his own, personal world and destroying everything else.


The last one might be a misinterpretation however.
 
@Azathoth i╠ ╠Âj╠Âu╠Âs╠Ât╠ ╠Âm╠Âi╠Ân╠Âd╠Âh╠Âa╠Âx╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠Âa╠Ân╠ ╠Âo╠Âm╠Ân╠Âi╠Âs╠Âc╠Âi╠Âe╠Ân╠Ât╠ ╠Ât╠Âi╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Â0╠ Basically Maji is arguing that flowey scales above chara and the anomoly or compares and that save files and his world are actual timelines as opposed to being frisks access to timelines. I am arguing that the six human souls being above chara is impossible and the last is still way to vague and requires a lot of circular reasoning and assumptions to really assume true.
 
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Undertale: Photoshop Flowey-sized Revision
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LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
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