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Sorry if this has already been answered, but didn't sans say timelines are stopping and starting in reference to the whole save and load system? Wouldn't this be proof that the saves are making and destroying their own timelines.
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Undertale god tier revision
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The statement that would fit is jumping left and right, which would fit for someone who reverses it to a previous state.
But again, we don't assume frisk to be Low 2-C when they fell for overwriting Flowey's safe, right?
But again, we don't assume frisk to be Low 2-C when they fell for overwriting Flowey's safe, right?
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About the first part of your statement I just checked and the line I mentioned and yours are part of
so timelines are being ended and made while also moving around.
Also sorry but I'm not too sure what the second part means.
so timelines are being ended and made while also moving around.
Also sorry but I'm not too sure what the second part means.
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The second part stands for the fact that Frisk, when they fell undergroud, overwrote Flowey's save files with their own, and yet we don't make them Low 2-C for it.
Even if we assume Save Files are low 2-C, we never scaled anyone to it only for deleting and overwriting them.
Even if we assume Save Files are low 2-C, we never scaled anyone to it only for deleting and overwriting them.
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I'm not sure if that assumption works, if it was just flowery's power being over written, it would just be "the timeline", but since items multiple timelines and sans is talking directly to the player, it seems more likely to be referencing save points as timelines in of themselves. Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't we scale Six soul Flowey based on destroying save files.
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The multiple timelines has the problem of how does the anomaly themself interact with said timelines? The reason that Chara and co. were dowgraded to begin with was that we can't know for sure if they can affect multiple timelines at once, and yet Sans is talking about the anomaly when he refers to timelines in multiple.
And no, we scaled flowey to chara.
And no, we scaled flowey to chara.
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Okay I'm not too sure about the timelines part, so I'll leave that alone for now, but the page literally has saves as half the justification for Flowey's rating
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That was a sdide-justification to them scaling to chara, and that's being questioned here.
And we don't do it for frisk either, yet they can create save files at will.
And we don't do it for frisk either, yet they can create save files at will.
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Multiple timelines stopping and starting is likely due to the fact that progress isnt made until frisk goes back to that point in time and continues. It doesnt really mean that the save files getting destroyed erases the timeline at all.
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Can somebody summarise this?
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Omega doesn't scale to Chara.
His best feat would be Low 2-C, thus making Asriel At least Low 2-C (There was a whole discussion about how being infiniotly above low 2-C is still low 2-C a few days prior.)
It's being argued whenever a savefile contains timelines as wholes.
His best feat would be Low 2-C, thus making Asriel At least Low 2-C (There was a whole discussion about how being infiniotly above low 2-C is still low 2-C a few days prior.)
It's being argued whenever a savefile contains timelines as wholes.
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Random question is 5-D 2-A or high 2-A?
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That is... Not the downgrade i am making at allRicsi-viragosi said:
Omega floweys tier should be unknown as he does not scale to chara or the player and save files are not actual timelines themselves. Just access to those timelines
Asriel is at least 2-C likely 2-B since he is not infinitely above chara
Asriel also probably gets infinite speeds as well
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It's actually this
Omega Flowey is getting revised to Unknow
Asriel will be 2-C likely 2-B but not infinitely above 2-B like he previously was.
If Asriel has to get downgraded to low 2-C, it would be through a different CRT than this one.
Omega Flowey is getting revised to Unknow
Asriel will be 2-C likely 2-B but not infinitely above 2-B like he previously was.
If Asriel has to get downgraded to low 2-C, it would be through a different CRT than this one.
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High 2-A. 2-A is infinite 4D.Apatheticskell said:
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Why would asriel be possible 2-B tough? He scales above omwga who scales above chara. There is no other way to scale the two.
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Yes, since their feat is still the same.
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Frisk would also be downgraded in AP.
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Asriel was going to do the same thing that chara did which is destroy the games reality. Would chara just be omnipresent or nigh omnipresent with infinite reactions? Im thinking nigh omnipresence since she can appear anywhere at any time, but not actually exist everywhere at the same time.
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He wasn't going to do that. He was just going to reset everything so that you would need to do everything over and over.
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True reset is what chara did. It involves erasing everything and restoring it again. Chara stole that ability from the anomaly and did the true reset as well. Plus he implied that he could destroy the world as well in his fight.
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Not really. The two aren't directly connected. Chara destroyed the world and then they recreated a new one.
There is no reason to assume asriel would do anything bit a normal reset.
There is no reason to assume asriel would do anything bit a normal reset.
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Destroying the world in undertale has always been referred to as destroying reality.
He said all of your progress and memories will be set back to zero. Which is something a normal reset cannot do.
He said all of your progress and memories will be set back to zero. Which is something a normal reset cannot do.
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The only one who actually refers to destroying all of reality is chara, so always isn't quiet the right word.
You were losing your memories by dying over and over, and everyone else does lose them normally.
You were losing your memories by dying over and over, and everyone else does lose them normally.
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No. Flowey and chara are the only ones aware of how the game works and always talk about the game in these scenarios. There is no reason for asriel to be referring to anything other then the games reality in this instance.
That is just the result of asriel killing frisk. Not the reset. Setting everyones memories and progress back to zero is the exact description flowey gave to describe the true reset.
That is just the result of asriel killing frisk. Not the reset. Setting everyones memories and progress back to zero is the exact description flowey gave to describe the true reset.
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Flowey doesn't really know it's a game nearly as much, and asriel by nature overhypes stuff.
It is also the exact thing that happens in a normal reset. The only ones memories that are left are frisk, chara, the anomaly and flowey. Chara and the anomaly would have kept their memories regardless, and frisk was losing it due to dying.
It is also the exact thing that happens in a normal reset. The only ones memories that are left are frisk, chara, the anomaly and flowey. Chara and the anomaly would have kept their memories regardless, and frisk was losing it due to dying.
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Why would asriel overhype stuff? Flowey knows how the game works and describes the mechanics many times. There is nothing to suggest asriel is overhyping that statement.
A normal reset still leaves the timelines in tact. You just go to a new one where other people dont know about the other timelines. The true reset affects everyones memories and progress as well and directly undoes everything. The normal reset does not set anything back to zero or directly affect anyone. so yes, asriel was going to perform a true reset.
A normal reset still leaves the timelines in tact. You just go to a new one where other people dont know about the other timelines. The true reset affects everyones memories and progress as well and directly undoes everything. The normal reset does not set anything back to zero or directly affect anyone. so yes, asriel was going to perform a true reset.
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Flowey only really knows the save stuff, and may have some knowledge on the anomaly. He never showcased any knowledge on the level of chara.
And you assume this based on what? From what we know. I think frisk going back to the very start of their journey has less assumptions.
And you assume this based on what? From what we know. I think frisk going back to the very start of their journey has less assumptions.
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Knowledge on chara is irrelevant. He knows exactly what the true reset is which in genocide is referred to as destroying the world.
Many things. Frisk going to the normal reset point would mean his progress would not be lost and he would be able to reload back into the fight. Everyones memories would not me changed as the original timelines would remain the same. It would just create a new timeline where those iterations of everyone dont have the same memories. Asriel saying we can do everything again meant that he can the player would do the entire route again. Asriel was directly referring to the players progress being set to 0 which is exactly what a true reset does, not a normal one.
Many things. Frisk going to the normal reset point would mean his progress would not be lost and he would be able to reload back into the fight. Everyones memories would not me changed as the original timelines would remain the same. It would just create a new timeline where those iterations of everyone dont have the same memories. Asriel saying we can do everything again meant that he can the player would do the entire route again. Asriel was directly referring to the players progress being set to 0 which is exactly what a true reset does, not a normal one.
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@Read this post
"Most of this is just circular argument and burden of proof at this point. P.s. you forgot to mention my proof that there is no way for omega flowey to be superior to chara due to the physics of the barrier."
And how exactly does the physics of the barrier have anything to do with this?
"And all of that is time travel. He saved the information to those timelines. However as i have said before, storing information =/= physically storing the entire timeline. Also creating 6 save files is just him saving six times and making you reload. It something even frisk can do and does not put him above the anomoly."
This isn't regular "time travel" anymore dude, Photoshop Flowey is tranversing between timelines now and the game saves the time you were in the game (which is the next thing I will start explaining about). Okay, you already know about the time being saved on the Save File, so here's the important part you need to understand about and it is gonna be a bit complicated. Pretend that Undertale has let's say, 3 Save Files and all 3 have saved data on it (the 1st Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved before the 2nd one, the 2nd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved like a couple of hours after the 1st one but was before the 3rd, the 3rd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved a few days after the 2nd one & a long while ago after the first one).
Now imagine the power of having full control over & being able to switch between each Save File whenever you wanted by treating Save Files as actual Save Points (another way of saying that these timelines within the Save Files are indirectly treated as Save Points as well) due to all 3 of them having different but specific time points in their own timeline.
Frisk saves at Save Points and the Anomaly reloads Save Files which then reloads Frisk to whichever Save Point Frisk last saved at. Photoshop Flowey reloads & saves his Save Files (this is something Frisk can't obviously do, especially when they are attempting to do this directly, which only the Anomaly has this power), he doesn't need those yellow stars (save points) like Frisk usually does in order to do this. A save file records your progress (information, data, time, events, actions, and anything else you do in the game) and since time & events is what a timeline basically is in all games, then it safe to say that a save file would store that as form of information. There is nowhere else that a timeline will go nor be created in anywhere else that is not in a Save File which no one has yet provided me any 'actual' evidence for rather than just constantly dodging the claim.
"Still sounds like burden of proof. The function of save files is allowing you to access a certain point in that timeline where all of your progress in that timeline still exists therefore meaning it "stores information". And again, storing information does not quantify to storing the timeline itself nor would it be quantifiable in the first place."
This sounds more like you're just blatantly dodging the claim with "this is just a burden of proof" without actually giving me the proof of this claim 'you' decided bought up first without providing evidence to back it up and making a wild assumption that Save Files doesn't work this way in Undertale (which Undertale has never contradicted the main & original purpose of the Save File). Another thing, you wouldn't be able to find the timeline you saved on the Save File and the exact time you left off on said timeline if Save Files didn't stored them was the case.
"You have missed my point. My point is how saving the information of those timelines does not equate to storing the the entire timelines themselves and erasing them when you delete the save files. Cutting off a save file is just cutting off access to that save point. The save file is simply something that takes you to that save point. Plus the save file would be the equivilent of the button that you would push to take you to the beacon. Yet it doesnt mean that the button is a timeline. It just means that the button is linked to that point in that timeline. Same can be said for save files"
If you disable the Save File from working in some way without destroying/erasing it, then yes, the timeline will exist but you won't access to it until you find a way to reaccess it. However, should the Save File br destroyed/erased, the timeline inside it gets destroyed/erased with it. Actually, I should of pointed this out earlier but selecting continue would be the actual representation of the button and you already get the point of the beacon (which represents the save points, the yellow star you usually save as which are basically points of time).
"Most of this is just circular argument and burden of proof at this point. P.s. you forgot to mention my proof that there is no way for omega flowey to be superior to chara due to the physics of the barrier."
And how exactly does the physics of the barrier have anything to do with this?
"And all of that is time travel. He saved the information to those timelines. However as i have said before, storing information =/= physically storing the entire timeline. Also creating 6 save files is just him saving six times and making you reload. It something even frisk can do and does not put him above the anomoly."
This isn't regular "time travel" anymore dude, Photoshop Flowey is tranversing between timelines now and the game saves the time you were in the game (which is the next thing I will start explaining about). Okay, you already know about the time being saved on the Save File, so here's the important part you need to understand about and it is gonna be a bit complicated. Pretend that Undertale has let's say, 3 Save Files and all 3 have saved data on it (the 1st Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved before the 2nd one, the 2nd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved like a couple of hours after the 1st one but was before the 3rd, the 3rd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved a few days after the 2nd one & a long while ago after the first one).
Now imagine the power of having full control over & being able to switch between each Save File whenever you wanted by treating Save Files as actual Save Points (another way of saying that these timelines within the Save Files are indirectly treated as Save Points as well) due to all 3 of them having different but specific time points in their own timeline.
Frisk saves at Save Points and the Anomaly reloads Save Files which then reloads Frisk to whichever Save Point Frisk last saved at. Photoshop Flowey reloads & saves his Save Files (this is something Frisk can't obviously do, especially when they are attempting to do this directly, which only the Anomaly has this power), he doesn't need those yellow stars (save points) like Frisk usually does in order to do this. A save file records your progress (information, data, time, events, actions, and anything else you do in the game) and since time & events is what a timeline basically is in all games, then it safe to say that a save file would store that as form of information. There is nowhere else that a timeline will go nor be created in anywhere else that is not in a Save File which no one has yet provided me any 'actual' evidence for rather than just constantly dodging the claim.
"Still sounds like burden of proof. The function of save files is allowing you to access a certain point in that timeline where all of your progress in that timeline still exists therefore meaning it "stores information". And again, storing information does not quantify to storing the timeline itself nor would it be quantifiable in the first place."
This sounds more like you're just blatantly dodging the claim with "this is just a burden of proof" without actually giving me the proof of this claim 'you' decided bought up first without providing evidence to back it up and making a wild assumption that Save Files doesn't work this way in Undertale (which Undertale has never contradicted the main & original purpose of the Save File). Another thing, you wouldn't be able to find the timeline you saved on the Save File and the exact time you left off on said timeline if Save Files didn't stored them was the case.
"You have missed my point. My point is how saving the information of those timelines does not equate to storing the the entire timelines themselves and erasing them when you delete the save files. Cutting off a save file is just cutting off access to that save point. The save file is simply something that takes you to that save point. Plus the save file would be the equivilent of the button that you would push to take you to the beacon. Yet it doesnt mean that the button is a timeline. It just means that the button is linked to that point in that timeline. Same can be said for save files"
If you disable the Save File from working in some way without destroying/erasing it, then yes, the timeline will exist but you won't access to it until you find a way to reaccess it. However, should the Save File br destroyed/erased, the timeline inside it gets destroyed/erased with it. Actually, I should of pointed this out earlier but selecting continue would be the actual representation of the button and you already get the point of the beacon (which represents the save points, the yellow star you usually save as which are basically points of time).
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"Um, what? A save file storing an entire timeline would actually be the thing to contradict having a specific save point. If the save file physically stored the entire timeline, then it wouldnt even take you to a certain point. It would just let you do basic time travel where you could end up at any point. It doesnt erase the time stored within it. It erases your progress simply because you no longer have access to that timeline or whatever you did in it."
Without saving, the Save File would just simply take you back to the beginning of the timeline. "0:00" is the time you load a new Save File to begin the game but without saving it, when you save at a save point, the time changes to the amount of time you spent in the timeline (which the Save File also records as its part of your progress in the game). If you select "Reset" or "True Reset," it will erase the Save File and your entire progress (including the entire time you spent in the game which the Save File stores in itself) & space cannot exist without time, which then ends the timeline along with the save file, its clear as day.
"If flowey cut off the opportunity to even use frisk or play the game by completely erasing it (which he cant) then there would be no way for the player to beat him. Just like how the player cant defeat chara due to what she does. And again, altering gameplay mechanics just cuts off frisks abilities."
This pretty much cancels out for both of them due to feats being very similar to each other.
"Burden of proof fallacy. I gave an example as to how it is a hyperbole. Saying his world is an entire timeline is a massive claim that needs proof to back it up. Not circular logic."
Claiming that it's a hyperbole is false and of course Photoshop Flowey's world would be considered as a timeline, it isn't a pocket dimension or anything similar to that. So basically someone blantantly creates an entire timeline and owns it, we should call that a hyperbole out of nowhere? Sounds like a really very bad argument to make.
"This is a lot of headcannon. It has never shown to be anything more than a black room. Save files are not timelines and this realm doesnt contain those timelines at all. All of this seems to be using recycled arguments again. His world isnt even something he uses to control save files. He just uses it to fight frisk within it. At best it is a pocket dimension."
>Just a black room >Pocket Dimension
Now that's an actual headcanon, there's absolutely nothing which states either of that in the game.
"My point is that manipulating gameplay mechanics or changing physics isnt 4D as it is something someone who isnt 4D can do."
If it has to do with Photoshop Flowey manipulating the gameplay mechanics to mess with Frisk, then no, even I wouldn't consider that as a 4-D feat but just hax.
Without saving, the Save File would just simply take you back to the beginning of the timeline. "0:00" is the time you load a new Save File to begin the game but without saving it, when you save at a save point, the time changes to the amount of time you spent in the timeline (which the Save File also records as its part of your progress in the game). If you select "Reset" or "True Reset," it will erase the Save File and your entire progress (including the entire time you spent in the game which the Save File stores in itself) & space cannot exist without time, which then ends the timeline along with the save file, its clear as day.
"If flowey cut off the opportunity to even use frisk or play the game by completely erasing it (which he cant) then there would be no way for the player to beat him. Just like how the player cant defeat chara due to what she does. And again, altering gameplay mechanics just cuts off frisks abilities."
This pretty much cancels out for both of them due to feats being very similar to each other.
"Burden of proof fallacy. I gave an example as to how it is a hyperbole. Saying his world is an entire timeline is a massive claim that needs proof to back it up. Not circular logic."
Claiming that it's a hyperbole is false and of course Photoshop Flowey's world would be considered as a timeline, it isn't a pocket dimension or anything similar to that. So basically someone blantantly creates an entire timeline and owns it, we should call that a hyperbole out of nowhere? Sounds like a really very bad argument to make.
"This is a lot of headcannon. It has never shown to be anything more than a black room. Save files are not timelines and this realm doesnt contain those timelines at all. All of this seems to be using recycled arguments again. His world isnt even something he uses to control save files. He just uses it to fight frisk within it. At best it is a pocket dimension."
>Just a black room >Pocket Dimension
Now that's an actual headcanon, there's absolutely nothing which states either of that in the game.
"My point is that manipulating gameplay mechanics or changing physics isnt 4D as it is something someone who isnt 4D can do."
If it has to do with Photoshop Flowey manipulating the gameplay mechanics to mess with Frisk, then no, even I wouldn't consider that as a 4-D feat but just hax.
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""What are you talking about? Flowey has never even directly interacted with coding. Are you talking about what happens in the game files? Because what happens in the game files is not cannon and is affected by everything that goes on in the game. Sorry but your sentence doesnt even make any sense here.""
Dude, Flowey used the 6 Human SOULs to change various aspects of the game (this is something you can easily see and notice for yourself if you minimize the gamescreen and look at the top of it while playing the corrupted Undertale intro, which I just mentioned in the thread multiple times by now) and Sans already confirmed that hackers exists in the game in the Dirty Hacker ending (not implying that Flowey is one of those hackers that Sans is mentioning about and Sans is referring to the anomaly/players as the hacker anyways), so arguing against that is rather pointless.
"And again, taking control over the save system is just taking control of frisks abilities. You are missing the point. Flowey removed and controlled save files. Chara destroyed the game. On top of that it is questionable whether she actually needed the players soul or not. Either way, flowey being above or comparable to chara or the player is inconsistent as mentioned in a previous comment.""
Not only that but the timelines in Photoshop Flowey's Save Files as well. You must have forgotten that and if I didn't mention this earlier that Photoshop Flowey had to took over your game and mess with the codings using the 6 Human SOULs to create his own entire world right? This is something Chara couldn't do.
Chara needs your soul to recreate the entire reality of the game and Photoshop Flowey has 6 human SOULs, so logically he shouldn't have too much of a problem doing that same feat. Lastly, no it isn't inconsistent. Flowey clearly explains it to you that he knows a way to become superior to both Chara and you, which disproves any arguments for Chara being higher than Photoshop Flowey & Asriel.
Dude, Flowey used the 6 Human SOULs to change various aspects of the game (this is something you can easily see and notice for yourself if you minimize the gamescreen and look at the top of it while playing the corrupted Undertale intro, which I just mentioned in the thread multiple times by now) and Sans already confirmed that hackers exists in the game in the Dirty Hacker ending (not implying that Flowey is one of those hackers that Sans is mentioning about and Sans is referring to the anomaly/players as the hacker anyways), so arguing against that is rather pointless.
"And again, taking control over the save system is just taking control of frisks abilities. You are missing the point. Flowey removed and controlled save files. Chara destroyed the game. On top of that it is questionable whether she actually needed the players soul or not. Either way, flowey being above or comparable to chara or the player is inconsistent as mentioned in a previous comment.""
Not only that but the timelines in Photoshop Flowey's Save Files as well. You must have forgotten that and if I didn't mention this earlier that Photoshop Flowey had to took over your game and mess with the codings using the 6 Human SOULs to create his own entire world right? This is something Chara couldn't do.
Chara needs your soul to recreate the entire reality of the game and Photoshop Flowey has 6 human SOULs, so logically he shouldn't have too much of a problem doing that same feat. Lastly, no it isn't inconsistent. Flowey clearly explains it to you that he knows a way to become superior to both Chara and you, which disproves any arguments for Chara being higher than Photoshop Flowey & Asriel.
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@DMUA I don't enjoy refuting long paragraph responses as much as you and everyone else.
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@magi hussie This is honestly getting ridiculous. So far you are still mostly bringing up fallacious arguments that go by repetition or arguments that dont even directly debunk the main argument i am making.
And how exactly does the physics of the barrier have anything to do with this? It isn't just the physics. Chara destroyed the barrier with her own raw power without using human souls. Flowey cannot do anything to the barrier.
This isn't regular "time travel" anymore dude, Photoshop Flowey is tranversing between timelines now and the game saves the time you were in the game (which is the next thing I will start explaining about). Okay, you already know about the time being saved on the Save File, so here's the important part you need to understand about and it is gonna be a bit complicated. No. Only certain points in different timelines being saved on a file
Pretend that Undertale has let's say, 3 Save Files and all 3 have saved data on it (the 1st Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved before the 2nd one, the 2nd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved like a couple of hours after the 1st one but was before the 3rd, the 3rd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved a few days after the 2nd one & a long while ago after the first one). Now imagine the power of having full control over & being able to switch between each Save File whenever you wanted by treating Save Files as actual Save Points (another way of saying that these timelines within the Save Files are indirectly treated as Save Points as well) due to all 3 of them having different but specific time points in their own timeline. Frisk saves at Save Points and the Anomaly reloads Save Files which then reloads Frisk to whichever Save Point Frisk last saved at. Photoshop Flowey reloads & saves his Save Files (this is something Frisk can't obviously do, especially when they are attempting to do this directly, which only the Anomaly has this power), he doesn't need those yellow stars (save points) like Frisk usually does in order to do this. For starters this is just dimensional travel. Second, that isn't how timelines and save points work. If frisk saves, it doesn't immediately create a new timeline. If he saves, does a neutral route, but then he reloads again and does another neutral route, the decision he made would as a result, create another timeline where he made a different decision. Save files are what characters use to go backwards in time to an earlier point, try again and then create another timeline as a result of their actions. Flowey was basically just taking frisk back to that earlier point and trying again. It is a bit like how trunks in dbz simply went back to the past, but as a result of his actions, created an entirely new timeline. So no, reloading a save is not going to another timeline in the way you think. The player is the one who allows frisk to use the ability to save and reload. Flowey takes control of frisks saving and loading, but it doesn't make him as powerful as the player. It still cutting off frisks abilities and not doing anything directly to the player.
A save file records your progress (information, data, time, events, actions, and anything else you do in the game) and since time & events is what a timeline basically is in all games, then it safe to say that a save file would store that as form of information. There is nowhere else that a timeline will go nor be created in anywhere else that is not in a Save File which no one has yet provided me any 'actual' evidence for rather than just constantly dodging the claim. Storing information about something =/= storing the entire thing itself. Just because you lose information and memories of something, that doesn't mean it has been erased from existence. The timeline exists in the undertale reality. Not stored in save files. I haven't dodged anything. I have debunked everything and you are using burden of proof to justify it.
This sounds more like you're just blatantly dodging the claim with "this is just a burden of proof" without actually giving me the proof of this claim 'you' decided bought up first without providing evidence to back it up and making a wild assumption that Save Files doesn't work this way in Undertale (which Undertale has never contradicted the main & original purpose of the Save File). Another thing, you wouldn't be able to find the timeline you saved on the Save File and the exact time you left off on said timeline if Save Files didn't stored them was the case. I haven't dodged the claim. I have explained how save files work by logic and that there is no evidence for them being the entire timeline. There is not enough evidence to suggest them erasing the timelines when the save files are erased. Saying you have to prove otherwise is burden of proof.
If you disable the Save File from working in some way without destroying/erasing it, then yes, the timeline will exist but you won't access to it until you find a way to reaccess it. However, should the Save File br destroyed/erased, the timeline inside it gets destroyed/erased with it. Actually, I should of pointed this out earlier but selecting continue would be the actual representation of the button and you already get the point of the beacon (which represents the save points, the yellow star you usually save as which are basically points of time). No dude. Both of them would just stop you from accessing the timelines. Why would the continue button be a representation of the button that takes you from one timeline to another?
Without saving, the Save File would just simply take you back to the beginning of the timeline. "0:00" is the time you load a new Save File to begin the game but without saving it, when you save at a save point, the time changes to the amount of time you spent in the timeline (which the Save File also records as its part of your progress in the game). If you select "Reset" or "True Reset," it will erase the Save File and your entire progress (including the entire time you spent in the game which the Save File stores in itself) & space cannot exist without time, which then ends the timeline along with the save file, its clear as day. A save file remembering how much time you spent within it doesn't suddenly mean that it encompasses the entire timeline. Ive already explained why information/memory =/= physically containing the timeline repeatedly. A normal reset doesn't destroy anything. A true reset does. Flowey can remember everything during a normal reset simply because those timelines were never destroyed. In a true reset, everything is actually destroyed and set back to normal, which includes flowey. If we went by your logic then a true reset would be exactly the same as a normal reset. Also frisk only goes back to the point where he fell into the underground in both resets. Not the beginning of an entire timeline. Space and time being tied has nothing to do with this. Nothing you have shown here even debunks anything I have said nor proves that information being lost suddenly means the entire timeline being erased.
This pretty much cancels out for both of them due to feats being very similar to each other. No. Their feats are not at all similar. Flowey just has efficient save and reload which is just time manipulation. If flowey were even comparable to chara, he could just destroy the entire game including frisk, bring it back and make the game his own reality. In fact there are many things flowey could have done if he were this powerful such as stealing human souls from the surface or another timeline. All flowey has ever done is mess with gameplay mechanics and the reload system. That is it. He never attacks the player or uses his abilities. He just knows how to reload back in time or to another timeline and cut off access to them for frisk. In fact, save files allowing frisk alone to travel between timelines pretty much shows that none of these feats are sheer speeds.
Claiming that it's a hyperbole is false and of course Photoshop Flowey's world would be considered as a timeline, it isn't a pocket dimension or anything similar to that. So basically someone blantantly creates an entire timeline and owns it, we should call that a hyperbole out of nowhere? Sounds like a really very bad argument to make. Appeal to ignorance. Lets look this argument "Flowey created his world which means it is another timeline > This is a hyperbole > It isn't a hyperbole because he blatantly created another timeline with the statement of his world". No. He didn't create a timeline called his world. He just created an empty room. That is literally it.
Just a black room Pocket Dimension. Now that's an actual headcanon, there's absolutely nothing which states either of that in the game. Yeah, and saying it is an entire universal space time continuum just because he gives the term "his world" before the fight is totally not headcannon. I said it is a pocket dimension at best. Despite the fact that many characters in fiction say stuff like this all the time without creating entire time space continuums. Even superman prime has used the term "my world" before and it doesn't make him 4D. So why should flowey be an exception?
Dude, Flowey used the 6 Human SOULs to change various aspects of the game (this is something you can easily see and notice for yourself if you minimize the gamescreen and look at the top of it while playing the corrupted Undertale intro, which I just mentioned in the thread multiple times by now) and Sans already confirmed that hackers exists in the game in the Dirty Hacker ending (not implying that Flowey is one of those hackers that Sans is mentioning about and Sans is referring to the anomaly/players as the hacker anyways), so arguing against that is rather pointless. Can you actually explain what happens when you do this? Because this is making no sense. Either way, what you describe is just messing with the games mechanics which for the tenth time, is not a 4D feat. It is just messing with physics at best. The dirty hacker ending isn't even cannon. It is just the game scolding you for hacking into a non existent ending. Sans even says that it isn't supposed to be seen. You cant use something outside the main script as a feat.
Not only that but the timelines in Photoshop Flowey's Save Files as well. You must have forgotten that and if I didn't mention this earlier that Photoshop Flowey had to took over your game and mess with the codings using the 6 Human SOULs to create his own entire world right? This is something Chara couldn't do. No. He didn't create an entire world. He timelines don't directly exist within save files and messing with coding is not even a quantifiable feat in the first place nor has coding even been referenced in undertale. Forming these points into a repeated circular argument doesn't change anything.
Chara needs your soul to recreate the entire reality of the game and Photoshop Flowey has 6 human SOULs, so logically he shouldn't have too much of a problem doing that same feat. False analogy. Chara on her own already had that level of power. She only said she wanted the players soul. On top of that a singular soul does not even offer 4D attack potency. If it did then asriel would have not been killed by normal humans when he had one soul and would have tanked their hits and walked off. So no. Chara does not scale to the souls at all. Even if she used the players soul to do it, she likely combine it with her own power as well.
Lastly, no it isn't inconsistent. Flowey clearly explains it to you that he knows a way to become superior to both Chara and you, which disproves any arguments for Chara being higher than Photoshop Flowey & Asriel. I have debunked that statement repeatedly as his end goal was becoming asriel, not flowey and he had no idea how powerful chara would be at the end of genocide.
And how exactly does the physics of the barrier have anything to do with this? It isn't just the physics. Chara destroyed the barrier with her own raw power without using human souls. Flowey cannot do anything to the barrier.
This isn't regular "time travel" anymore dude, Photoshop Flowey is tranversing between timelines now and the game saves the time you were in the game (which is the next thing I will start explaining about). Okay, you already know about the time being saved on the Save File, so here's the important part you need to understand about and it is gonna be a bit complicated. No. Only certain points in different timelines being saved on a file
Pretend that Undertale has let's say, 3 Save Files and all 3 have saved data on it (the 1st Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved before the 2nd one, the 2nd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved like a couple of hours after the 1st one but was before the 3rd, the 3rd Save File is very similar to the others but this was saved a few days after the 2nd one & a long while ago after the first one). Now imagine the power of having full control over & being able to switch between each Save File whenever you wanted by treating Save Files as actual Save Points (another way of saying that these timelines within the Save Files are indirectly treated as Save Points as well) due to all 3 of them having different but specific time points in their own timeline. Frisk saves at Save Points and the Anomaly reloads Save Files which then reloads Frisk to whichever Save Point Frisk last saved at. Photoshop Flowey reloads & saves his Save Files (this is something Frisk can't obviously do, especially when they are attempting to do this directly, which only the Anomaly has this power), he doesn't need those yellow stars (save points) like Frisk usually does in order to do this. For starters this is just dimensional travel. Second, that isn't how timelines and save points work. If frisk saves, it doesn't immediately create a new timeline. If he saves, does a neutral route, but then he reloads again and does another neutral route, the decision he made would as a result, create another timeline where he made a different decision. Save files are what characters use to go backwards in time to an earlier point, try again and then create another timeline as a result of their actions. Flowey was basically just taking frisk back to that earlier point and trying again. It is a bit like how trunks in dbz simply went back to the past, but as a result of his actions, created an entirely new timeline. So no, reloading a save is not going to another timeline in the way you think. The player is the one who allows frisk to use the ability to save and reload. Flowey takes control of frisks saving and loading, but it doesn't make him as powerful as the player. It still cutting off frisks abilities and not doing anything directly to the player.
A save file records your progress (information, data, time, events, actions, and anything else you do in the game) and since time & events is what a timeline basically is in all games, then it safe to say that a save file would store that as form of information. There is nowhere else that a timeline will go nor be created in anywhere else that is not in a Save File which no one has yet provided me any 'actual' evidence for rather than just constantly dodging the claim. Storing information about something =/= storing the entire thing itself. Just because you lose information and memories of something, that doesn't mean it has been erased from existence. The timeline exists in the undertale reality. Not stored in save files. I haven't dodged anything. I have debunked everything and you are using burden of proof to justify it.
This sounds more like you're just blatantly dodging the claim with "this is just a burden of proof" without actually giving me the proof of this claim 'you' decided bought up first without providing evidence to back it up and making a wild assumption that Save Files doesn't work this way in Undertale (which Undertale has never contradicted the main & original purpose of the Save File). Another thing, you wouldn't be able to find the timeline you saved on the Save File and the exact time you left off on said timeline if Save Files didn't stored them was the case. I haven't dodged the claim. I have explained how save files work by logic and that there is no evidence for them being the entire timeline. There is not enough evidence to suggest them erasing the timelines when the save files are erased. Saying you have to prove otherwise is burden of proof.
If you disable the Save File from working in some way without destroying/erasing it, then yes, the timeline will exist but you won't access to it until you find a way to reaccess it. However, should the Save File br destroyed/erased, the timeline inside it gets destroyed/erased with it. Actually, I should of pointed this out earlier but selecting continue would be the actual representation of the button and you already get the point of the beacon (which represents the save points, the yellow star you usually save as which are basically points of time). No dude. Both of them would just stop you from accessing the timelines. Why would the continue button be a representation of the button that takes you from one timeline to another?
Without saving, the Save File would just simply take you back to the beginning of the timeline. "0:00" is the time you load a new Save File to begin the game but without saving it, when you save at a save point, the time changes to the amount of time you spent in the timeline (which the Save File also records as its part of your progress in the game). If you select "Reset" or "True Reset," it will erase the Save File and your entire progress (including the entire time you spent in the game which the Save File stores in itself) & space cannot exist without time, which then ends the timeline along with the save file, its clear as day. A save file remembering how much time you spent within it doesn't suddenly mean that it encompasses the entire timeline. Ive already explained why information/memory =/= physically containing the timeline repeatedly. A normal reset doesn't destroy anything. A true reset does. Flowey can remember everything during a normal reset simply because those timelines were never destroyed. In a true reset, everything is actually destroyed and set back to normal, which includes flowey. If we went by your logic then a true reset would be exactly the same as a normal reset. Also frisk only goes back to the point where he fell into the underground in both resets. Not the beginning of an entire timeline. Space and time being tied has nothing to do with this. Nothing you have shown here even debunks anything I have said nor proves that information being lost suddenly means the entire timeline being erased.
This pretty much cancels out for both of them due to feats being very similar to each other. No. Their feats are not at all similar. Flowey just has efficient save and reload which is just time manipulation. If flowey were even comparable to chara, he could just destroy the entire game including frisk, bring it back and make the game his own reality. In fact there are many things flowey could have done if he were this powerful such as stealing human souls from the surface or another timeline. All flowey has ever done is mess with gameplay mechanics and the reload system. That is it. He never attacks the player or uses his abilities. He just knows how to reload back in time or to another timeline and cut off access to them for frisk. In fact, save files allowing frisk alone to travel between timelines pretty much shows that none of these feats are sheer speeds.
Claiming that it's a hyperbole is false and of course Photoshop Flowey's world would be considered as a timeline, it isn't a pocket dimension or anything similar to that. So basically someone blantantly creates an entire timeline and owns it, we should call that a hyperbole out of nowhere? Sounds like a really very bad argument to make. Appeal to ignorance. Lets look this argument "Flowey created his world which means it is another timeline > This is a hyperbole > It isn't a hyperbole because he blatantly created another timeline with the statement of his world". No. He didn't create a timeline called his world. He just created an empty room. That is literally it.
Just a black room Pocket Dimension. Now that's an actual headcanon, there's absolutely nothing which states either of that in the game. Yeah, and saying it is an entire universal space time continuum just because he gives the term "his world" before the fight is totally not headcannon. I said it is a pocket dimension at best. Despite the fact that many characters in fiction say stuff like this all the time without creating entire time space continuums. Even superman prime has used the term "my world" before and it doesn't make him 4D. So why should flowey be an exception?
Dude, Flowey used the 6 Human SOULs to change various aspects of the game (this is something you can easily see and notice for yourself if you minimize the gamescreen and look at the top of it while playing the corrupted Undertale intro, which I just mentioned in the thread multiple times by now) and Sans already confirmed that hackers exists in the game in the Dirty Hacker ending (not implying that Flowey is one of those hackers that Sans is mentioning about and Sans is referring to the anomaly/players as the hacker anyways), so arguing against that is rather pointless. Can you actually explain what happens when you do this? Because this is making no sense. Either way, what you describe is just messing with the games mechanics which for the tenth time, is not a 4D feat. It is just messing with physics at best. The dirty hacker ending isn't even cannon. It is just the game scolding you for hacking into a non existent ending. Sans even says that it isn't supposed to be seen. You cant use something outside the main script as a feat.
Not only that but the timelines in Photoshop Flowey's Save Files as well. You must have forgotten that and if I didn't mention this earlier that Photoshop Flowey had to took over your game and mess with the codings using the 6 Human SOULs to create his own entire world right? This is something Chara couldn't do. No. He didn't create an entire world. He timelines don't directly exist within save files and messing with coding is not even a quantifiable feat in the first place nor has coding even been referenced in undertale. Forming these points into a repeated circular argument doesn't change anything.
Chara needs your soul to recreate the entire reality of the game and Photoshop Flowey has 6 human SOULs, so logically he shouldn't have too much of a problem doing that same feat. False analogy. Chara on her own already had that level of power. She only said she wanted the players soul. On top of that a singular soul does not even offer 4D attack potency. If it did then asriel would have not been killed by normal humans when he had one soul and would have tanked their hits and walked off. So no. Chara does not scale to the souls at all. Even if she used the players soul to do it, she likely combine it with her own power as well.
Lastly, no it isn't inconsistent. Flowey clearly explains it to you that he knows a way to become superior to both Chara and you, which disproves any arguments for Chara being higher than Photoshop Flowey & Asriel. I have debunked that statement repeatedly as his end goal was becoming asriel, not flowey and he had no idea how powerful chara would be at the end of genocide.
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@Read this post
"This is honestly getting ridiculous. So far you are still mostly bringing up fallacious arguments that go by repetition or arguments that even directly debunk the main argument am making."
Look who's talking....you are creating actual headcanons for some of the responses you are giving me and misunderstanding the basics of how certain game functions works (which are not different than any other game) in Undertale.
"It isn't just the physics. Chara destroyed the barrier with her own raw power without using human souls. Flowey cannot do anything to the barrier."
>Chara destroy the barrier
Since when? I'm very surprised you would jump the gun with this wild headcanon you just created as a response out of nowhere since nobody has ever stated nor implied that Chara has the power to do this in the game Undertale. Not to mention that it's a magical barrier, not a physical one you can simply destroy with sheer power & Chara was also never stated to escape the underground either in any instance found in the game.
"No. Only certain points in different timelines being saved on a file"
Save Files can save entire timelines too (which someone like Photoshop Flowey can do, unlike Frisk) by directly saving Save Files whereas Frisk can only save at save points (points of time), there's a huge difference.
"For this is just dimensional travel. Second, that isn't how timelines and save points work. If frisk saves, it doesn't immediately create a new timeline. If he saves, does a neutral route, but then he reloads again and does another neutral route, the decision he made would a result, create another timeline where he made a different decision. Save files are what characters use to go in time to an earlier point, try again and then create another timeline as a result of their actions. Flowey was basically just taking frisk back to that earlier point and trying again. It is a bit like how trunks in dbz simply went back to the past, but as a result of his actions, created an entirely new timeline. So no, reloading a save is not going to another timeline in the way you think. The player is the one who allows frisk to use the ability to save and reload. Flowey takes control of frisks saving and loading, but it doesn't make him as powerful as the player. It still off frisks abilities and not doing anything directly to the player."
Frisk has his position being constantly being reset by Photoshop Flowey through the use of time manipulation & transversing timelines by travelling in different save files and you're randomly telling me that this involves "dimensional travel?" This is a bad argument to defend your claim with and Photoshop Flowey never stated that he could do that either nor has anyone else in the game. That pretty much explains how Frisk can create alternate branching timelines in the neutral route which depends on the specific actions he does in the game through the use of saving & loading which helps him out on making this possible indirectly. If Frisk starts killing specific major characters in the game, they leave the neutral route which they then enter the genocide route and a new timeline is also created in the process when that happens. If Frisk starts sparing specific major characters in the game, they leave the neutral route which they then enter the pacifist route a new timeline is also created in the process when that happens.
If Photoshop Flowey was transporting Frisk back to the past in the same timeline he saved using one of his save files, then he wouldn't have to use this ability in multiple different save files simultaneously to do this now, would he? Yes, Trunks did something very similar to Frisk with their save points (yellow stars that are manifestations of their DT). When the Anomaly reloads their only Save File they have, yes, they are still in the same timeline but however, when Photoshop Flowey reloads his 6 Save Files randomly different times and not in order, Photoshop Flowey is reloading multiple timelines at once & not all of them are exactly the same thing (very similar to each other but different).
"Storing information about something =/= storing the entire thing itself. Just because you lose information and memories of something, that doesn't mean it has been erased from existence. The timeline exists in the undertale reality. Not stored in save files. I haven't dodged anything. I have debunked everything and you are using burden of proof to justify it."
Never made the "storing information about something = storing the entire thing itself" claim anywhere and if I remember correctly, the timelines contained in Undertale are not the same size as the game itself. Photoshop Flowey erasing a save file and destroying it erases the current timeline Frisk used to be in and his progress, so that will make it impossible to return back to that timeline again. You keep dodging the claims (if I didn't make this clear before) such as "where else would a timeline be stored other than a save file?" & "how does Undertale contradict the main and original function of a save file (which there is currently no proof of whatsoever)?" So no, you didn't really debunked anything other than misunderstanding how some of Photoshop Flowey's abilities works.
"This is honestly getting ridiculous. So far you are still mostly bringing up fallacious arguments that go by repetition or arguments that even directly debunk the main argument am making."
Look who's talking....you are creating actual headcanons for some of the responses you are giving me and misunderstanding the basics of how certain game functions works (which are not different than any other game) in Undertale.
"It isn't just the physics. Chara destroyed the barrier with her own raw power without using human souls. Flowey cannot do anything to the barrier."
>Chara destroy the barrier
Since when? I'm very surprised you would jump the gun with this wild headcanon you just created as a response out of nowhere since nobody has ever stated nor implied that Chara has the power to do this in the game Undertale. Not to mention that it's a magical barrier, not a physical one you can simply destroy with sheer power & Chara was also never stated to escape the underground either in any instance found in the game.
"No. Only certain points in different timelines being saved on a file"
Save Files can save entire timelines too (which someone like Photoshop Flowey can do, unlike Frisk) by directly saving Save Files whereas Frisk can only save at save points (points of time), there's a huge difference.
"For this is just dimensional travel. Second, that isn't how timelines and save points work. If frisk saves, it doesn't immediately create a new timeline. If he saves, does a neutral route, but then he reloads again and does another neutral route, the decision he made would a result, create another timeline where he made a different decision. Save files are what characters use to go in time to an earlier point, try again and then create another timeline as a result of their actions. Flowey was basically just taking frisk back to that earlier point and trying again. It is a bit like how trunks in dbz simply went back to the past, but as a result of his actions, created an entirely new timeline. So no, reloading a save is not going to another timeline in the way you think. The player is the one who allows frisk to use the ability to save and reload. Flowey takes control of frisks saving and loading, but it doesn't make him as powerful as the player. It still off frisks abilities and not doing anything directly to the player."
Frisk has his position being constantly being reset by Photoshop Flowey through the use of time manipulation & transversing timelines by travelling in different save files and you're randomly telling me that this involves "dimensional travel?" This is a bad argument to defend your claim with and Photoshop Flowey never stated that he could do that either nor has anyone else in the game. That pretty much explains how Frisk can create alternate branching timelines in the neutral route which depends on the specific actions he does in the game through the use of saving & loading which helps him out on making this possible indirectly. If Frisk starts killing specific major characters in the game, they leave the neutral route which they then enter the genocide route and a new timeline is also created in the process when that happens. If Frisk starts sparing specific major characters in the game, they leave the neutral route which they then enter the pacifist route a new timeline is also created in the process when that happens.
If Photoshop Flowey was transporting Frisk back to the past in the same timeline he saved using one of his save files, then he wouldn't have to use this ability in multiple different save files simultaneously to do this now, would he? Yes, Trunks did something very similar to Frisk with their save points (yellow stars that are manifestations of their DT). When the Anomaly reloads their only Save File they have, yes, they are still in the same timeline but however, when Photoshop Flowey reloads his 6 Save Files randomly different times and not in order, Photoshop Flowey is reloading multiple timelines at once & not all of them are exactly the same thing (very similar to each other but different).
"Storing information about something =/= storing the entire thing itself. Just because you lose information and memories of something, that doesn't mean it has been erased from existence. The timeline exists in the undertale reality. Not stored in save files. I haven't dodged anything. I have debunked everything and you are using burden of proof to justify it."
Never made the "storing information about something = storing the entire thing itself" claim anywhere and if I remember correctly, the timelines contained in Undertale are not the same size as the game itself. Photoshop Flowey erasing a save file and destroying it erases the current timeline Frisk used to be in and his progress, so that will make it impossible to return back to that timeline again. You keep dodging the claims (if I didn't make this clear before) such as "where else would a timeline be stored other than a save file?" & "how does Undertale contradict the main and original function of a save file (which there is currently no proof of whatsoever)?" So no, you didn't really debunked anything other than misunderstanding how some of Photoshop Flowey's abilities works.
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"I haven't dodged the claim. I have explained files work by logic and that there is no evidence for them being the entire timeline. There is not enough evidence to suggest them erasing the timelines when the save files are erased. Saying you have to prove otherwise is of proof."
Save Files doesn't work in any other way you interpret to be that is not their intended and original main function. I already explained quite enough how save files can store timelines.
"No dude. Both of them would just stop you from accessing the timelines. Why would the continue button be a representation of the button that takes you from one timeline to another?"
That wouldn't contradict anything I previously mentioned here. You wouldn't be able to enter said timeline without selecting "continue" now, could you?
"A save file remembering how much time you spent within it doesn't suddenly mean that it encompasses the entire timeline. Ive already explained why information/memory =/= physically containing the timeline repeatedly. A normal reset doesn't destroy anything. A true reset does. Flowey can remember everything during a normal reset simply because those timelines were never destroyed. In a true reset, everything is actually destroyed and set back to normal, which includes flowey. If we went by your logic then a true reset would be exactly the same as a normal reset. Also frisk only goes back to the point where he fell into the underground in both resets. Not the beginning of an entire timeline. Space and time being tied has nothing to do with this. Nothing you have shown here even debunks anything I have said nor proves that information being lost suddenly means the entire timeline being erased."
The save file is capable of storing time in some form & a timeline to a game is a form of information and its considered as nothing else but that. The reset erases most information on the save file but you're technically right, it doesn't erase everything in the game (not implying that the current timeline won't be affected by a normal reset). Don't start creating any more misinterpretation what I said, especially "the reset = true reset" claim which is something I never implied anywhere in my arguments. Of course it takes you straight back to the beginning of the timeline (it literally shows the same intro of the Undertale for every reset and then you play as the fallen human right after that) and yes, space & time being tied is an universal type of thing which has to do with every video game in existence that follows proper logic.
"No. Their feats are not at all similar. Flowey just has efficient save and reload which is just time manipulation. If flowey were even comparable to chara, he could just destroy the entire game including frisk, bring it back and make the game his own reality. In there are many things flowey could have done if he were this powerful such as stealing human souls from the surface or another timeline. All flowey has ever done is with gameplay mechanics and the reload system. That is it. He never attacks the player or uses his abilities. He just knows how to reload back in time or to another timeline and cut off access to them for . In fact, save files allowing frisk alone to travel between timelines pretty much shows that none of these feats are sheer speeds."
Just to point this out for you, Chara doesn't have Time Manipulation by themselves without the Anomaly's soul whereas Photoshop Flowey already has Time Manipulation he uses in a bigger scale than in his base form, keep that in mind. Wow, really?It's not like Photoshop Flowey has basically done that before or anything. Photoshop Flowey has 6 Human SOULs whereas Chara only has one (which was only possible through persuasion, the Anomaly didn't really have to give it to them and could of just stay in an eternal, empty void of nothing but darkness forever), you shouldn't really factor in human souls which just is adding more reasons how Photoshop Flowey is clearly superior to Chara. That's just only 2 of the rest of the things he has done with the power of the 6 human SOULs. Photoshop Flowey has been using his abilities of the 6 human SOULs like multiple times in his fight against Frisk and the reason why Photoshop Flowey can't harm the Anomaly is due to them being incorporeal. Also, Chara can't harm the Anomaly for the same reason either after destroying the entire game and was still able to have a conversation with them right after. Photoshop Flowey knows multiple ways of using Save Files to his own benefit, not just that. Yea, when you explain it like that, it really isn't.
"Appeal to ignorance. Lets look this argument "Flowey created his world which means it is another timeline > This is a hyperbole > It isn't a hyperbole because he blatantly created another timeline with the statement of his world". No. He didn't create a timeline called his world. He just created an empty room. That is literally it."
There's no "appeal to ignorance" anywhere in my previous claim, you clearly have no in-game evidence to back up the "Photoshop Flowey's world is a pocket dimension!!!" claim. The term "world" doesn't mean planet nor meaning pocket dimension clearly. "Empty room" is just an unproven assumption at this point and his world is clearly a vast void of nothingness & if we use your logic, Chara was just in an empty room after destroying the entire game when having a conversation with you.
"Yeah, and saying it is an entire universal space time continuum just because he gives the term "his world" before the fight is totally not headcannon. I said it is a pocket dimension at best. Despite the fact that many characters in fiction say stuff like this all the time without creating entire time space continuums. Even superman prime has used the term "my world" before and it doesn't make him 4D. So why should flowey be an exception?"
"World" in context either means universe/timeline or planet, so it would most likely be the former than the latter since there are no planets in the save file nor has Photoshop Flowey implied so to be the case. Also, by your logic, you might as well downplay every feat of all fictional verses when they use the term "world" which they heavily implied it to represent a space-time structure (e.g. timeline) or universe & just say "its just a pocket dimension" and consider that as a "100% accurate & flawless" statement at this point. Never considered Flowey as an exception, you create an infinite world of vast nothingness using a save file. Pocket dimensions aren't created like that.
"Can you actually explain what happens when you do this? Because this is making no sense. Either way, what you describe is just messing with the games mechanics which for the tenth time, is not a 4D feat. It is just messing with physics at best. The dirty hacker ending isn't even cannon. It is just the game scolding you for hacking into a non existent ending. Sans even says that it isn't supposed to be seen. You cant use something outside the main script as a feat."
Save Files doesn't work in any other way you interpret to be that is not their intended and original main function. I already explained quite enough how save files can store timelines.
"No dude. Both of them would just stop you from accessing the timelines. Why would the continue button be a representation of the button that takes you from one timeline to another?"
That wouldn't contradict anything I previously mentioned here. You wouldn't be able to enter said timeline without selecting "continue" now, could you?
"A save file remembering how much time you spent within it doesn't suddenly mean that it encompasses the entire timeline. Ive already explained why information/memory =/= physically containing the timeline repeatedly. A normal reset doesn't destroy anything. A true reset does. Flowey can remember everything during a normal reset simply because those timelines were never destroyed. In a true reset, everything is actually destroyed and set back to normal, which includes flowey. If we went by your logic then a true reset would be exactly the same as a normal reset. Also frisk only goes back to the point where he fell into the underground in both resets. Not the beginning of an entire timeline. Space and time being tied has nothing to do with this. Nothing you have shown here even debunks anything I have said nor proves that information being lost suddenly means the entire timeline being erased."
The save file is capable of storing time in some form & a timeline to a game is a form of information and its considered as nothing else but that. The reset erases most information on the save file but you're technically right, it doesn't erase everything in the game (not implying that the current timeline won't be affected by a normal reset). Don't start creating any more misinterpretation what I said, especially "the reset = true reset" claim which is something I never implied anywhere in my arguments. Of course it takes you straight back to the beginning of the timeline (it literally shows the same intro of the Undertale for every reset and then you play as the fallen human right after that) and yes, space & time being tied is an universal type of thing which has to do with every video game in existence that follows proper logic.
"No. Their feats are not at all similar. Flowey just has efficient save and reload which is just time manipulation. If flowey were even comparable to chara, he could just destroy the entire game including frisk, bring it back and make the game his own reality. In there are many things flowey could have done if he were this powerful such as stealing human souls from the surface or another timeline. All flowey has ever done is with gameplay mechanics and the reload system. That is it. He never attacks the player or uses his abilities. He just knows how to reload back in time or to another timeline and cut off access to them for . In fact, save files allowing frisk alone to travel between timelines pretty much shows that none of these feats are sheer speeds."
Just to point this out for you, Chara doesn't have Time Manipulation by themselves without the Anomaly's soul whereas Photoshop Flowey already has Time Manipulation he uses in a bigger scale than in his base form, keep that in mind. Wow, really?
"Appeal to ignorance. Lets look this argument "Flowey created his world which means it is another timeline > This is a hyperbole > It isn't a hyperbole because he blatantly created another timeline with the statement of his world". No. He didn't create a timeline called his world. He just created an empty room. That is literally it."
There's no "appeal to ignorance" anywhere in my previous claim, you clearly have no in-game evidence to back up the "Photoshop Flowey's world is a pocket dimension!!!" claim. The term "world" doesn't mean planet nor meaning pocket dimension clearly. "Empty room" is just an unproven assumption at this point and his world is clearly a vast void of nothingness & if we use your logic, Chara was just in an empty room after destroying the entire game when having a conversation with you.
"Yeah, and saying it is an entire universal space time continuum just because he gives the term "his world" before the fight is totally not headcannon. I said it is a pocket dimension at best. Despite the fact that many characters in fiction say stuff like this all the time without creating entire time space continuums. Even superman prime has used the term "my world" before and it doesn't make him 4D. So why should flowey be an exception?"
"World" in context either means universe/timeline or planet, so it would most likely be the former than the latter since there are no planets in the save file nor has Photoshop Flowey implied so to be the case. Also, by your logic, you might as well downplay every feat of all fictional verses when they use the term "world" which they heavily implied it to represent a space-time structure (e.g. timeline) or universe & just say "its just a pocket dimension" and consider that as a "100% accurate & flawless" statement at this point. Never considered Flowey as an exception, you create an infinite world of vast nothingness using a save file. Pocket dimensions aren't created like that.
"Can you actually explain what happens when you do this? Because this is making no sense. Either way, what you describe is just messing with the games mechanics which for the tenth time, is not a 4D feat. It is just messing with physics at best. The dirty hacker ending isn't even cannon. It is just the game scolding you for hacking into a non existent ending. Sans even says that it isn't supposed to be seen. You cant use something outside the main script as a feat."
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The codings of the entire game are shown to be getting constantly changed where the title of the game is on the screen when you minimize it just before the corrupted Undertale intro plays. You're not just affecting the gameplay mechanics, you are also affecting the game itself, which is indeed a 4-D feat actually. Messing with codings doesn't affect the physics of the game. The dirty hacker ending can clearly be accessed through the game files and whatever is found in the game files is also canon in the game. Sans word won't disprove that but rather backs it up the fact that the ending is canon.
"No. He didn't create an entire world. He timelines don't directly exist within save files and messing with coding is not even a quantifiable feat in the first place nor has coding even been referenced in undertale. Forming these points into a repeated circular argument doesn't change anything."
Yes, Photoshop Flowey did objectively created an entire world as it is a timeline created from one of his Save Files and yes, Flowey's timelines do exists within the save file and messing with the codings of the entire game is onsidered to be a quantifiable 4-D feat in the game by Flowey using the 6 human SOULs. I really don't want to constantly explain this over and over, nothing you say will change that as what was shown in the game itself has disproven your claims against it.
"False analogy. Chara on her own already had that level of power. She only said she wanted the players soul. On top of a singular soul does not even offer 4D attack potency. If it did then asriel would have not been killed by normal humans when he had one soul and would have tanked their hits and walked off. So no. Chara does not scale to the souls at all. Even if she used the players soul to do it, she likely combine it with her own power as well."
No they didn't. Chara had to feed on the Anomaly's Determination & constant increase of power first before such a thing was possible. The Anomaly transcended space-time in some form, so Chara absorbing their soul would allow them to be 4-D and Photoshop Flowey having 6 human SOULs doesn't mean he's not 4-D either. Chara's human soul =/= the Anomaly's soul. That doesn't mean Chara is superior to them either. Being able to recreate the game's reality is a power that the Anomaly has and can use which Chara lacks. Not to hard to understand really.
"I have debunked that statement repeatedly as his end goal was becoming asriel, not flowey and he had no idea how powerful chara would be at the end of genocide.'
That's false, and that's Flowey's 2nd goal after absorbing the 6 human SOULs to become more powerful than both you & Chara, he wouldn't say that the soul was "stolen" for a reason if it didn't refer specifically to Chara now, would he? Also yes, he was well aware of Chara's true power, that's one of the reasons why he came up with that plan to do this in the first place.
"No. He didn't create an entire world. He timelines don't directly exist within save files and messing with coding is not even a quantifiable feat in the first place nor has coding even been referenced in undertale. Forming these points into a repeated circular argument doesn't change anything."
Yes, Photoshop Flowey did objectively created an entire world as it is a timeline created from one of his Save Files and yes, Flowey's timelines do exists within the save file and messing with the codings of the entire game is onsidered to be a quantifiable 4-D feat in the game by Flowey using the 6 human SOULs. I really don't want to constantly explain this over and over, nothing you say will change that as what was shown in the game itself has disproven your claims against it.
"False analogy. Chara on her own already had that level of power. She only said she wanted the players soul. On top of a singular soul does not even offer 4D attack potency. If it did then asriel would have not been killed by normal humans when he had one soul and would have tanked their hits and walked off. So no. Chara does not scale to the souls at all. Even if she used the players soul to do it, she likely combine it with her own power as well."
No they didn't. Chara had to feed on the Anomaly's Determination & constant increase of power first before such a thing was possible. The Anomaly transcended space-time in some form, so Chara absorbing their soul would allow them to be 4-D and Photoshop Flowey having 6 human SOULs doesn't mean he's not 4-D either. Chara's human soul =/= the Anomaly's soul. That doesn't mean Chara is superior to them either. Being able to recreate the game's reality is a power that the Anomaly has and can use which Chara lacks. Not to hard to understand really.
"I have debunked that statement repeatedly as his end goal was becoming asriel, not flowey and he had no idea how powerful chara would be at the end of genocide.'
That's false, and that's Flowey's 2nd goal after absorbing the 6 human SOULs to become more powerful than both you & Chara, he wouldn't say that the soul was "stolen" for a reason if it didn't refer specifically to Chara now, would he? Also yes, he was well aware of Chara's true power, that's one of the reasons why he came up with that plan to do this in the first place.
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