Undertale god tier revision

[Read_this_post]

You can only have access to one save file at a time. It is never implied that you use the true reset on that specific save file. Having access to one save file doesnt mean that you perform the true reset directly on the save file meaning it encompasses the timeline. There are so many assumptions behind that

Except that's not the case at all. Flowey makes six files. Sans confirms multiple timelines. It's just that you only have access to one at a time. The timelines are specifically what the anomoly is doing when reloading. If true reset were performed on one save file/one timeline, then the rest would be unaffected. Ive already explained how flowey creating save files would just be creating points in time for frisk to go back to. In fact he just creates a save one after another and accesses each one, 1 at a time. He cant access six save files all at once.

In fact if we go by the logic of resetting one timeline resets the whole game, this would mean that chara performing the true reset would have only affected one save file/one timeline since the other save files are actually lost regardless.

It very much does. It takes everything back to where it started. Flowey just keeps his memories. Again, Flowey states that resetting (he does not specify "true resetting") brings everyone back to the beginning. Please give me something from the game itself that specifies that the reset does not reset the timeline when Flowey says that it does. Flowey loses his memories because in the true reset you literally destroy everything. Flowey said in the clip you showed that absolutely everything would be erased as a result. The only other time flowey can have his memory erased is when chara destroys the games reality and reboots it which is the exact thing the true reset is. Even if his timeline statement were true, why would that imply that he is using it on a save file specifically? (please dont make this into another circular argument). The normal reset literally just takes you to the reset point. The true reset deletes and restores everything including the timelines.

Flowey loses his memories because due to all of reality being destroyed, flowey has no way to survive or reload himself, and you restore the game to what it originally was. Just like chara. In a normal reset he doesnt since his ability to normal reset is still around.

And it's a difference that doesn't matter here, because we're not talking about Chara (who performed said feat). We're talking about Flowey, who busted one save file and created six others, and Asriel, who dwarfs Flowey and could purge a timeline at a fraction of his power. Is asriels purging timeline feat even proven? All he did was say he was going to purge this timeline and use the hypergoner. But before hand he was simply talking about resetting everything by taking control. And on top of that, once he ends the fight, he is crying on a solid floor in front of frisk without even using power to restore anything (note that asriel would have total control of the souls btw). Ever considered that he was just referring to what he was going to do? And not what he was doing at that point? Because the way i see it, you are currently putting up a more argument for a low 2-C undertale. Plus your save file isnt erased when asriel purges the timeline. So there is obviously a difference between destroying the file and destroying the timeline.

Except no, it isn't? Saving creates a point you can return to, and loading lets you return to said point. Your save file is not the point itself, or resetting said file would not cause everything else to be reset, as well. Because using it on one save file isnt what resets the game. If it were then it would not affect other timelines either.

Chara does not true reset. Chara destroys the entire world and then restores it. There is a difference. She does. They both involve destroying everything and restoring it. They both have the same effect (erasing memories and deleting all progress). The same way of achieving it (getting a main ending) and chara performs it by stealing power from the anomoly who can only cause those affects on the game via true reset. It is pretty heavily implied that she was doing the same thing.

And on top of this why would ripping flowey out of the timeline erase his memories? when a normal reset would logically do this?

Flowey says that resetting your save file will reset the timeline. This suggests that the save file is linked to/contains said timeline of events. Flowey never mentions a "true reset" by name. Just that this time, you'll have to erase his memories, as well. Flowey doesnt even mention a save file. He just says everyone will be ripped from this timeline and sent back. Which is a contradicted statement and just a way of avoiding making it sound like you are destroying and restoring anything.

Flowey destroys your save file. Flowey creates six more save files. These are both Tier 2. You can also create one save file after another in undertale. yet it still just involves going to those points in time. It isnt a tier 2 feat at all

Another thing i realised. when you do a normal reset and still have a save file somewhere in the playthrough, you can continue past the point where you saved and yet reload to that save where you have done a totally different path. Meaning you can still traverse between two different timelines and have the save file unchanged when you go back despite the save file apparently encompassing the entire timeline and changing the timeline when the save file itself is changed. Which would even further back up save files being mere access to those timelines.

If this is about tiering Flowey and Asriel, then nothing else really matters right now but this.

If you want to show that a save file does not contain the current timeline, please give me actual dialogue from the game, like that I have provided. Because if I post dialogue of Flowey suggesting that your save file contains the timeline and that resetting it will reset the timeline, I can't really have an actual argument if you just disagree with it without other explicit instances from the game to disprove it.

Honestly, there is just way too much contradicting floweys statement at the end and requires way too many assumptions to say that it involves directly affecting the save file when files are not even brought up in the sentence.

Sorry for making this so long, but right now my bed is calling me. in a while

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

My dude, you are using a lot of headcanon and assumptions, and we're already starting to retread ground that's been covered, already (which is exactly what happened earlier in this thread where the same thing was basically argued over repeatedly). Words like "true reset" are not mentioned in much of the context you say they are. For example, Chara is just said to destroy the world and then restore it, not "true reset". This causes problems when you assert that these specific words have such overwhelming importance.

Undertale is a game where a lot of stuff is left vague, but if something is made pretty clear, then there really isn't any reason we shouldn't go with it.


Returning to the important topic, Flowey mentions that resetting will rip everyone from where they are and set them back to the beginning of the timeline. The thing you reset is your save file. You can boot up the game and go to the menu screen if you want to double check this. Resetting your save file resets the timeline. Your save file, then, is therefore heavily connected to/contains the timeline. Why then, should we ignore Flowey busting your save file and creating four-six of his own?

Undertale generates a lot of opinions no matter the context in which it's talked about, which is cool, but doesn't help an actual CRT. In this case, all I want is what's shown/said/suggested in the game.

So again, I'll repeat.

(Here's the only real part of this comment that matters.)

Flowey mentions that resetting, which is done to your save file, resets everyone in the timeline. This suggests that either they are directly linked or that the timeline is contained within the file.

If you disagree with this, that's fine, but for CRT purposes, I don't care unless you show me something from the game.

Show me dialogue from the game that suggests or flat out states this can't/shouldn't be/isn't the case, otherwise we really aren't getting anywhere. We can deal with these things one at a time so they actually get done, and this is by far one of the most important. Not trying to be a dick here, believe me, but this is one of those things where we can't actually proceed without focusing on stuff in the game instead of our opinions on it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It is never implied that you use the true reset on that specific save file.

Just because I feel this is very important, yes, it 100% is.

There's your save file's data. Your options for it are either "continue" or "reset/true reset". It is what you are doing to your save file.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I'm back and let's see what I missed.

"It is never implied that you the true reset on that specific save file."

@Read this post Dude, what....? You only possess 1 save file and have 2 options of what you could do it and "specific save file?" You literally have 1 save file in Undertale, there's no other save files you can use and by your logic, the normal reset option was never implied that you can use it on a specific save file.

 

[Andytrenom]

If Flowey destroying the save file would be considered a low 2-C feat....then wouldn't a beginning of game Frisk creating one also have to considered a low 2-C feat?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Andy Well actually, that would scale to the Anomaly since they actually created the Save File and has control over it on a bigger scale than Frisk and Frisk is represented as an avatar of the Anomaly, so they control the Save File on a limited scale and all that you already know about what Frisk can do.

 

[Andytrenom]

And what about Flowey creating SAVEs in his base form?

 

[Read_this_post]

Ok. Im feeling slightly more awake now and might have a better view of what is going on. Just give me some time and i give my take on this.

 

[Andytrenom]

I'm starting to change my mind on SAVE files not being timelines but I still have some concerns.

How do you reconcile SAVE files being entire 4 dimensional constructs of a universal scale with the fact that Flowey could create them even as an 8-C/7-C...

 

[Read_this_post]

I'll cover this later. I was too frustrated and extremely tired in my last few responses and way too focused on debunking rather than analysing. Don't worry. It will only be 10 hours, or more

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah take a break. No need to push yourself into debating if that means not being able to address the arguments properly.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Andy "And what about Flowey creating SAVEs in his base form?"

I don't recall Flowey doing this base, may you specify when exactly did he do this in base?

 

[Andytrenom]

Flowey has had the ability to SAVE and LOAD since long before his transformation into Photoshop Flowey...It's kind of a big part of his backstory.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ok. I may need to actually make a blog, really long response or a new continued content revision. There actually may be many more misconceptions about the game than i originally thought and i may have to study the physics of the verse for a bit.

This could take a few days to a few weeks (possibly over a month) due to getting tangled up with many other things lately, but the stuff i will genuinelly cover are

- Base flowey/photoshop flowey and frisks abilities

- Photoshop flowey and the player

- sans statements about save and load

- asriel statements

- True reset and normal reset/being used on multiple save files

And the general physics of the verse overall based on how these things work. Because i may be starting to notice ties between everything and possibly what the narrative truly showed.

The changes could honestly vary in so many ways based on the information. although i already do have some good information about the first one. So it may not be too long.

Im not sure if this should be closed for now or left open for a little while longer. However it will be used later on regardless.

After that is done and everything is fully cleared up, i may do one for the low tiers and hopefully conclude all of this once and for all.

 

[Read_this_post]

Either way, it may be best not to continue this until i come back with the new revision. Because i feel like this thread has still cleared up a few misconceptions anyway and i will be using this for my analysis. Although you can still post any links to additional information involving the mechanics if you feel it will prove useful.

 

[Eficiente]

If this is going to be closed we should likely discuss my proposal to give O.Flowey EE which surged in this thread. It would be kinda inappropriate for me to make a new thread just for that.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ok then. For now at least. Not sure if my future revision will change that or not :/

Edit: I thought you were matthew, dafuq?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Andy Oh yeah, well it wouldn't scale to him physically but rather only scale to his hax prob.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What of his hax does he use in direct battle tough?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'll cover this later. I was too frustrated and extremely tired in my last few responses and way too focused on debunking rather than analysing. Don't worry. It will only be 10 hours, or more

No need to ever debate when you're in this state, so don't worry about pushing yourself.

We're debating the stats of some indie game characters on the internet. Very far from important and nothing that requires immediate attention over being properly rested.

 

[Eficiente]

Edit: I thought you were matthew, dafuq?

I feel honored. Unless this is the closest I'm going to get to become an admin, in that case RIP.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If this is going to be closed we should likely discuss my proposal to give O.Flowey EE which surged in this thread. It would be kinda inappropriate for me to make a new thread just for that.

I mean, he still needs to kinda...not scale to Chara, since that was agreed upon completely.

 

[Read_this_post]

Azathoth Its hard to do so regardless when i have to wake at 4am every morning 0_0. And also making the mistake of debating a few on google plus for a bit (seriously, people there are worse than pokemon trainers) But thanks for your concern. You have definitely been one of the most helpful here. You may do as you wish to this thread.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, appreciated. Though like I said, I definitely agree with the premise that Flowey doesn't need to scale to Chara, which should be something we should address before it's forgotten about in some way, even if Flowey receives more revisions, later.

 

[Read_this_post]

What do you think about him overpowering the players determination?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Like for scaling purposes?

Don't know, as it's kind of hard to tell exactly where Frisk/the player was at that point, considering they later match Asriel (who is just Flowey but stronger in every way) in Determination.

 

[Read_this_post]

Ill definitely be studying the connection between frisk, chara and the player along with how they correspond and change things. That is always so confusing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It is, especially since the game itself doesn't make it 100% clear.

We know that, despite their link, they're not the same person, and that characters will sometimes break the fourth wall to speak to one of them in particular. But a lot of the other stuff is left vague.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Can we please not let this die?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, as I agreed Flowey needs some revision (as would Asriel, slightly) anyway, just that said revision shouldn't really put him below Tier 2.

Just below where he is now and with different justification, as he doesn't need to/shouldn't scale to Chara.

 

[Andytrenom]

I am okay with low 2-C for Flowey.

Even if SAVE files are deemed to be timelines I don't think the act of saving is a tier 2 feat since both Frisk and base Flowey were capable of it.

Plus even if it was, creating one timeline per save should be low 2-C only.

 

[Read_this_post]

Still working on it. Unfortunately due to work I can only do a small amount of revision at a time. So it will take some time

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Andy I suppose so since I noticed before how Photoshop Flowey was creating 1 Save File at a time, so Low 2-C Photoshop Flowey wouldn't be too bad I guess.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't think we actually see him create them one at a time during the fight. They've already been created when the fight starts, as we see him SAVE over files 2, 3, and 6 during the battle, but they're already there when he attacks you (as should be kind of obvious, considering you don't even see him use files 1, 4, and 5).

 

[Andytrenom]

Okay, but still an issue remains.

Can we say that Flowey created all 6 files all at once? We know that he has 6 files available to him but what do we know beyond that, Is there enough information available to determine how exactly Flowey's AP scales to the files?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If he created them, then he obviously scales to them.

If the issue is "does he scale to creating them one at a time or all at once?", then we should go with what's most logical.

Flowey absorbs the six human SOULs and crashes your game. When you start it back up, he nukes your SAVE file and mocks you before stating he's worked out a replacement for you. When you start the fight, he already has these files ready and starts to exploit them.

If he created these files as soon as he got the human SOULs, or even during your game crash, then he did so pretty much instantly, as "Flowey World" already exists when you restart your game, and you confront him immediately after.

Is there really as reason to assume he did this one at a time? Because at absolute worst, this still seems like "At least Low 2-C, likely 2-C" if we want to acknowledge the possibility that he just created the six SAVE files one at a time in rapid succession, even though he just seems to have them at the ready seconds after absorbing the SOULs.

 

[Andytrenom]

I can see what you're saying, well that leaves me with only one question. If SAVING can be considered a low 2-c feat despite both base frisk and base flowey being capable of it?

Of course if the creation of the six files present during Flowey World are treated as a separate situation than SAVING, then it wouldn't really matter but i think this should be answered regardless.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yeah, SAVING should not be considered a tier 2 feat. Creation of an actual SAVE file on the other hand, is a different story. Base Frisk/Flowey don't actually create new SAVE files. They utilize the single one they have access to.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, figured I may as well post this in regards to SAVE files.

If you want to shut out every aspect of Deltarune, feel free to ignore it I suppose, but this is entirely in regards to supporting what I believe to be the creator's intent as opposed to scaling directly between games.

Deltarune, unlike Undertale, allows you access to three SAVE files as opposed to one. There are actually minor changes in each file, such as the contents of Asriel's drawer being different in each one. This would further add to the idea that each file is its own timeline/world, as opposed to just being some sort of access point to the exact same timeline.

Furthermore, the hidden menu's options also present some additional interesting dialogue.

If you attempt to copy an empty SAVE file, you are given the text "It is barren and cannot be copied.", while copying a SAVE file onto another existing SAVE file tells you "It will be subsumed."

A file cannot be copied onto itself because "It is immune to its own image."

Additionally, attempting to erase a SAVE file will let you know "Then it will be destroyed.". If you choose to follow through, you get the text "It was as if it was never there at all.". If you don't, "Then it was spared."

Just like in Undertale, I can't see any of this more logically pointing towards a single point in time/some sort of access point as opposed to simply talking about a timeline or something similar based on the connotation.

Relevant text dump from the files can be found here, if anyone is actually interested. Like I said, this is just to further show why I believe the points I expressed earlier.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah SAVE files being timelines may be okay and tbf, when I rejected this interpretation I had basically forgotten what a load was (opening up a SAVE file as opposed to reversing time in the middle of a playthrough)