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Ultra Instinct Goku vs. Ultra Ego Vegeta

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WarriorofMite said:
How is this off guard excuse being used now? The whole point of UI is for Goku to never be off guard since UI allows his body to react on it's own without him thinking. He should never be considered off guard, ever. It's a contradiction to the principle of what UI is and does. Goku getting felled by a lazer gun was PIS. Goku was actively in battle with Granolah and in UI, it seems very hard to justify he was off guard. He was also hit by the real Granolah, not the clone he was fighting. It seemed pretty clear that UI Goku was able to handle the Clone at first but just got one-shot by the real Granolah. Granolah even says the clone only has "some" of his power. Rather than Goku was off guard, it seems more likely that the real Granolah is just much stronger than Goku is.
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Nope, Granolah literally immediately says that UI's autododge gets less accurate over time, and his sharingan allows him to pick out those tiny openings in UI's decreasing accuracy which is how Goku was caught off guard despite being in UI. I explained this in my very first comment on this thread. I agree that lazer was PIS, but so is this, Goku's accuracy drop never existed until he was magically defeated just so vegeta could shine for a bit.
WarriorofMite said:
It was heavily implied on Yardrat, that Vegeta has a stronger base than Goku due to his better level of Spirit Control. SSBE was also quantified to be equal to SSBKKx20, making it a 20x boost. UIO Goku was shown in the ToP to be far above this same SSBE Vegeta. Meaning the multiplier for UIO had to be bigger than SSBE. In the Moro Arc, Vegeta's SSBE went from massively weaker than UIO Goku to being superior to UIO Goku. If their bases were the same Vegeta should have been much weaker with his form that gives a lower multiplier to power. Instead he was stronger. Not possible unless Vegeta has a higher base. Now we have UI Goku felled by real Granolah while Vegeta performed better with the same SSBE. Also not possible unless Vegeta's base is much higher than Goku's. Goku only performed so well due to his innate use of UI in non-silver haired forms. Their bases are not equal, your whole argument falls apart because of this.
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This was all the way back in yardrat... why are you bringing this up... and no even then it's not true, Vegeta's base got massively stronger but so did Goku, once he arrived on earth all the Z fighters were impressed by how strong he'd gotten. SSBE being 20x is anime only I'm pretty sure. Yup, UIS in the TOP was > SSBE Vegeta, and they had equal bases then, which means UIS > SSBE. No that is so wrong, UIS Goku was fighting equal with more but his stamina screwed him, but SSBE vegeta wasn't nearly as impressive to the Z fighters, Moro was able to easily take care of vegeta and only lost because vegeta was stealing his power with every attack, Vegeta doesn't actually scale to youth moro, only UIS Goku does. And that's why 73 moro knew to not let vegeta hit him at all so that to prevent him losing while having the stat advantage like last time. Explained why UI Goku was K.O'd by granolah. In the granolah arc, they had the same difficulty avoiding granolah's attacks why they were both in SSJ, they had equal bases before this arc and the training they did was only technique training not strength, so they do have equal bases.
WarriorofMite said:
Saying Goku should be far above Granolah and Vegeta is contradicted by Granolah's wish to be the strongest. Granolah is stronger by default after the wish. We do not know how much stronger he is than the rest of the mortal world so we can't assume Goku's training allowed him to pass Granolah. If it did, then Goku or Vegeta should have beat him pretty easily. Since that didn't happen for either of them, Goku passing him with training did not happen. The feats of the fight itself also contradict this as Vegeta performed better as a SSBE than Goku did with UI and Vegeta was fighting the real Granolah, not a clone like Goku who only had "some" of Granolah's power. Putting Goku above real Granolah seems silly.
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the other mister also brought up the same point so I'll just copy paste the response.
"Also the 'strongest in the universe' shit is brought up in the chapter and explained why it doesn't mean shit. Vegeta says 'strongest, second strongest? rankings are well and good, but they only reflect a moment in time, once that moment has passed by, it's nothing but history.' This is amazing explanation on why granolah's "strongest" doesn't mean crap."
WarriorofMite said:
1. Goku was in UI and in combat, he wasn't off guard. Granolah is just that much stronger than him. 2. Doubles as a perception feat for Vegeta. Typical in DB when a character is stronger than another. Instead of off guard, Vegeta could just be stronger. It would explain why he took the hit and was able to react to it better than Goku did. 3. Defeated? Vegeta laughs afterwards, talks about getting his blood pumping, then transforms. If he can laugh, indulge in the battle to come, and transform, there isn't much reason to think he was done. He took a big hit that hurt but came back for more. Goku took a hit like that and it was zzzzzzz.
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I hate repeating myself so much but I have to do this. 1. No, explained above, Goku didn't react to granolah because he was distracted and confused and UI didn't save him for reasons above 2. Goku was off guard vegeta wasn't, and was still hit, how is this a feat????? 3. Yup, had it not been for the healing of UE, vegeta would have bled to death due to having his organs destroyed. Stop comparing the attack vegeta took to Goku's, Goku had it far worse I explained this so many times, Goku was off guard so his durability is less, vegeta wasn't and even tried stopping the attack which made granolah barely connect 2. he was hit in the vital organs heart and lungs unlike vegeta who was hit in the less lethal guts 3. Both were defeated anyway but Goku took a punch to the wound hole directly after recieving this hit.
WarriorofMite said:
Stamina is pointless in this fight as UE Vegeta can beat Goku even with it not being piss poor. Goku has shown us that UI can be hit by people around his power level. Vegeta is implied to be stronger as a SSBE and probably much stronger as UE. Goku will be fighting an opponent who should be stronger by a large margin, has no stamina drain issues at all, and will continue to get even stronger as the fight goes on. This seems like a pretty cut and dry win for UE Vegeta here.
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No Goku is the one with the huge stat advantage, so vegeta will be defeated before he gets enough power to do anything meaningful. Stamina is pointless for both though, or more like negligible.
Bernkastelll said:
Vegeta wins this, Goku lose really quick to real body Granolah while Vegeta could stay fighting for more time, ''But Accuracy drop'' And? how does it matter if it also will quickly drain against Vegeta as well? also, Goku have no real scaling with Granolah true body while Vegeta does

I vote Vegeta
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Please read my arguments.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Because Granolah could exploit Goku's weakspot when he saw one after his accuracy dropped, while the same can't be said for Vegeta.
Granolah was also catching him off guard when he striked Goku. Vegeta is also going to let himself be damaged on purpose in this fight as seen with his fight against Granolah
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Granolah also exploited Vegeta weak spot, and doesnt matter, Vegeta can resist it more times than Goku, and Goku accuract will drop really quick, I don't really see the argument here
 
Too many thing to respond to help...
Axxtentacle said:
But he wouldn't have been off guard, his defense shouldn't have been down. Not expecting that one specific hit doesn't mean he would've dropped his defense entirely, especially considering what just happened.

Confusion =/= not having your defense up.
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He shouldn't have been off guard, but he WAS. He was clearly off guard, granolah just disappeared and Goku was confused so he goes and starts talking to vegeta, then suddenly granolah exploits an opening in Goku's defense WHILE he's off guard (which we know by the way he was acting, confsuion by itself doesn't mean being off guard, but he didn't know what had happened or why granolah disappeared, and was talking to vegeta, and didn't know he was hit until after granolah hit him).
Axxtentacle said:
UI Goku stomped the clone, yes. But SSJB didn't. He was even. With half of Granolah's power. Just seems like you're dancing around that.
Click to expand...
Bro please make a coherent sentence I don't understand. SSBE didn't what? Even with what? Half of granolah's power what? Please reiterate.
Axxtentacle said:
But in raw power he's obviously still the strongest. Hell, Vegeta knows Granolah's stronger and makes the point that Granolah doesn't know HOW TO USE IT.

So, in short, he's still the strongest lmao.
Click to expand...
No he isn't this is shown after UE vegeta literally SURPASSES Granolah and starts clowning on him, that is until granolah improved and became stronger than vegeta through reactive evolution. Just going off the amps and equal bases of Goku and vegeta (which you seem to be forgetting) Goku's UI should be far above both SSBE and UE because UE > SSBE but UI >>> UIS > SSBE.
Axxtentacle said:
You really seem to want to hold to the point that confusion = literally turning your defense off entirely when Granolah doesn't make any mention of this, just that he wanted the autododge to be weakened when he attacked.
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No that's not the point, it's not goku confused = defense down, it's Goku confused and off guard = defense down, that's why the defense drops in the first place, and I explained why he was off guard. But there's also that Granolah exploited an opening in Goku's defenses and UI with his sharingan so that is even more evidence that Goku's body was not ready for the attack and was vulnerable.
Axxtentacle said:
I mean hell, organs didn't even have to be destroyed. Just ****** up. Because both goku and vegeta had to heal themselves to recover, but here's the thing: UI is a significantly bigger amp than SSJBE. And UI took the hit worse stat-wise.
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I'm not implying organ destruction isn't bad that is a lie, I said straight up "I'm not saying that vegeta's case wasn't severe, I'm saying you can't compare it to what Goku took", Vegeta clearly took a bad attack, but Goku's was just worse, he had lower durability, granolah got a direct hit, Goku was hit in a far more lethal spot, and was punched in the wound hole immediately after. The reason for why UI Goku took the hit worse, is because he was hit with a worse attack! And it doesn't scale to his full stats! I explained this!
Axxtentacle said:
But it's just not, any kind of extreme organ damage is very much so able to **** anyone up. It's internal bleeding and an extremely swift death either way. And either way, I want you to answer this: Why would Granolah have gone for a significantly less severe spot to hit Vegeta in? He has no reason to, in fact, he has reason to do the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Click to expand...
I DON'T KNOW! Ask granolah he's the one who decided to hit vegeta in the less lethal spot not me! What's your point here?
Axxtentacle said:
Stomping the clone means a whole lot of nothing, you know that, right? This point about UIS being a bigger amp than SSBE just HURTS YOU. Because SSBE vegeta endured the hit better than UI goku. UI is then WAY HIGHER, and SSBE STILL took the hit better. Then he gets the UE boost and is able to fight for an extended period of time with the dude who just ****** up his weaker form who endured the hit better than Goku.
Click to expand...
Stop repeating the same thing, It's enough that I'm already doing that. The hit that vegeta supposedly took better than Goku doesn't mean that Goku's weaker, that is because Goku wasn't working at maximum power as well as he was inflicted with a far worse amount of damage.
Bernkastelll said:
Granolah also exploited Vegeta weak spot, and doesnt matter, Vegeta can resist it more times than Goku, and Goku accuract will drop really quick, I don't really see the argument here
Click to expand...
Accuracy drop is negligible, unless against someone like granolah who can see those tiny openings. You don't see the arguments because you're not reading them...
Sorry if I sound aggressive or anything it's just that all these points I've already repeatedly explained.
 
Been busy all day, can finally respond.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Too many thing to respond to help...

He shouldn't have been off guard, but he WAS. He was clearly off guard, granolah just disappeared and Goku was confused so he goes and starts talking to vegeta, then suddenly granolah exploits an opening in Goku's defense WHILE he's off guard (which we know by the way he was acting, confsuion by itself doesn't mean being off guard, but he didn't know what had happened or why granolah disappeared, and was talking to vegeta, and didn't know he was hit until after granolah hit him).
Click to expand...
Vegeta is actively trying to tell him that the fight isn't over, I know Goku isn't the most intelligent person, but he's actively being warned. He definitely shouldn't be just "my defense is gone because i'm not sure what's going on right now"/
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Bro please make a coherent sentence I don't understand. SSBE didn't what? Even with what? Half of granolah's power what? Please reiterate.
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Goku stomped half of Granolah's power, Vegeta fondled Granolah's full power for a good while till he got stronger.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No he isn't this is shown after UE vegeta literally SURPASSES Granolah and starts clowning on him, that is until granolah improved and became stronger than vegeta through reactive evolution. Just going off the amps and equal bases of Goku and vegeta (which you seem to be forgetting) Goku's UI should be far above both SSBE and UE because UE > SSBE but UI >>> UIS > SSBE.
Click to expand...
This doesn't mean UI >>>> UE by any stretch of the word, what? How do you know what UE's amp is? How do you know what modern day, more practiced SSBE's amp is? How do you know any of this? Stat-wise, Vegeta performed significantly better than Goku.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
No that's not the point, it's not goku confused = defense down, it's Goku confused and off guard = defense down, that's why the defense drops in the first place, and I explained why he was off guard. But there's also that Granolah exploited an opening in Goku's defenses and UI with his sharingan so that is even more evidence that Goku's body was not ready for the attack and was vulnerable.
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We've been going back and forth on whether or not his defense would still be "Active" or not, and I genuinely still see no reason that it shouldn't be. Even Granolah makes the point that his AUTODODGE WAS GETTING WORSE and THAT'S WHY he could land a hit. Not that Goku was weakened physically, or slower, or anything like that.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I'm not implying organ destruction isn't bad that is a lie, I said straight up "I'm not saying that vegeta's case wasn't severe, I'm saying you can't compare it to what Goku took", Vegeta clearly took a bad attack, but Goku's was just worse, he had lower durability, granolah got a direct hit, Goku was hit in a far more lethal spot, and was punched in the wound hole immediately after. The reason for why UI Goku took the hit worse, is because he was hit with a worse attack! And it doesn't scale to his full stats! I explained this!
Click to expand...
You've literally been arguing that only Goku's autododge got worse???????????? You didn't say shit about his actual stats?

The only real part that makes Goku's worse than Vegeta's was that Goku got a follow-up hit. A weak-point attack that should **** up pretty much all of their organs because, y'know, force tends to spread out, ****** them both up.

Either way, both of them got a lot of ******* serious organ damage from virtually the same attack.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
I DON'T KNOW! Ask granolah he's the one who decided to hit vegeta in the less lethal spot not me! What's your point here?
Click to expand...
He didn't. Because all he really needs to do is put a lot of force into specific spots, and well, force can spread. Either way, Goku got hit in the side of the chest, which is lungs, not heart, no...? I know the heart is somewhat to the left but it's not far left.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Stop repeating the same thing, It's enough that I'm already doing that. The hit that vegeta supposedly took better than Goku doesn't mean that Goku's weaker, that is because Goku wasn't working at maximum power as well as he was inflicted with a far worse amount of damage.
Click to expand...
At maximum power
Click to expand...

YOU LITERALLY DID NOT SAY THIS. You said his AUTODODGE was getting sloppier, just like what Granolah said and specifically made a point out of. Goku, based on what you said, was not physically weaker.
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Accuracy drop is negligible, unless against someone like granolah who can see those tiny openings. You don't see the arguments because you're not reading them...
Sorry if I sound aggressive or anything it's just that all these points I've already repeatedly explained.
Click to expand...
But could he even do enough damage to Vegeta fast enough? Because, yes, Vegeta would let himself get hit. But will Goku be able to **** up Goku THAT MUCH before time runs out for UI? Vegeta's growth made a pretty stompish match into a not-very-stompish match very quickly, only in SSJBE at that. And UE is that but on crack.
 
Axxtentacle said:
Vegeta is actively trying to tell him that the fight isn't over, I know Goku isn't the most intelligent person, but he's actively being warned. He definitely shouldn't be just "my defense is gone because i'm not sure what's going on right now"/
Click to expand...
I agree that shouldn't be the case but he was clearly off guard, just the fact that Goku and vegeta have equal bases and that SSBE vegeta was relative to granolah before he could improve shows that UI Goku should be significantly above what he's shown, which means him being off guard makes sense. But that doesn't mean he's off guard, we can tell by the way he's acting, he was confused and didn't know what was going on, he starts talking to vegeta then both are caught off guard by granolah's attack, you can still be caught off guard in a combat situation or even mid fight, but Goku in this case didn't know why granolah disappeared and thought he'd won the fight since he beat that clone, so it makes sense why he'd think the fight was over and let down his guard, this also makes sense, because Goku couldn't react to Granolah at all and didn't realize he'd been struck until after. This is similar to the lazer because they're both PIS.
Axxtentacle said:
Goku stomped half of Granolah's power, Vegeta fondled Granolah's full power for a good while till he got stronger.
Click to expand...
That does nothing to discredit Goku, Goku slapped half of granolah around so hard he might as well have been standing still, oh wait, HE WAS! and he didn't even look at him, Goku had no anti feats in that fight, that doesn't mean it's his cap, that's why I'm using the size of the UIS and UI gap compared to the SSBE gap to scale. Vegeta on the other hand, despite being stronger than granolah's full power, Granolah was still able to somewhat keep up at the beginning, and even make vegeta bleed, this proves that UE is not even that big of an amp, it didn't even turn a stomp around. Also if you think the clone is half of granolah's power then that would mean half of granolah is roughly = SSB Goku.
Axxtentacle said:
This doesn't mean UI >>>> UE by any stretch of the word, what? How do you know what UE's amp is? How do you know what modern day, more practiced SSBE's amp is? How do you know any of this? Stat-wise, Vegeta performed significantly better than Goku.
Click to expand...
Just like you read before, SSBE at the beginning of the fight was able to somewhat keep up with granolah, yet after improving, and then transforming, UE was still able to be damaged and made bleed by granolah who hadn't improved up to that point, since he only started improving after being pushed. Comparing this to UI's dummy big amp, UIS Goku got stomped by 73 moro so hard that moro didn't even need to look at Goku to beat him up, yet after Goku went UI, he clapped moro so hard that- I don't need to explain you watched that sick ass fight. Man broke his hand on Goku's chest. And Goku was still comparable to UI moro after absorbing merus' power, this amp is huge! Significantly larger than whatever UE is lol.
Axxtentacle said:
We've been going back and forth on whether or not his defense would still be "Active" or not, and I genuinely still see no reason that it shouldn't be. Even Granolah makes the point that his AUTODODGE WAS GETTING WORSE and THAT'S WHY he could land a hit. Not that Goku was weakened physically, or slower, or anything like that.
Click to expand...
I gave reasons why goku being off guard make him suppressed, and yup that's true, cuz regardless of whether Goku was off guard and suppressed or not, UI wouldn't allow him to be exploited while off guard, but UI's accuracy was weakening, that's why granolah could see an opening with the sharingan eye and exploit it, and the reason why Goku couldn't react or endure an attack from granolah was because he was off guard and suppressed, but you could also argue that granolah's technique is durability negation as when he used it against vegeta, he didn't harm his abs and barely connected but still destroyed his organs.
Axxtentacle said:
You've literally been arguing that only Goku's autododge got worse???????????? You didn't say shit about his actual stats?

The only real part that makes Goku's worse than Vegeta's was that Goku got a follow-up hit. A weak-point attack that should **** up pretty much all of their organs because, y'know, force tends to spread out, ****** them both up.

Either way, both of them got a lot of ******* serious organ damage from virtually the same attack.
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No I've been saying that from the beginning, Goku's stats were also worse just like in the lazer sequence because he was off guard, and his accuracy was also dropping. Both got a lot of organ damage but Goku's case was easily far worse for the reasons I've highlighted and kept doing so for the past 13 years like a broken record.
Axxtentacle said:
He didn't. Because all he really needs to do is put a lot of force into specific spots, and well, force can spread. Either way, Goku got hit in the side of the chest, which is lungs, not heart, no...? I know the heart is somewhat to the left but it's not far left.
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Yes he did, he hit him in the abs, which is where the guts are, even if the force did spread to his other organs, the guts is where all that force went, Goku on the other hand all that force directed on his angel logo, which is where is heart and lungs are which are especially vital organs and then got combo'd right in the wound hole which is probably what knocked him out actually and he also took it in base form + was suppressed from being off guard + granolah got a clean hit with no resistance unlike vegeta.
Axxtentacle said:
YOU LITERALLY DID NOT SAY THIS. You said his AUTODODGE was getting sloppier, just like what Granolah said and specifically made a point out of. Goku, based on what you said, was not physically weaker.
Click to expand...
Yes he was, I've been saying he's off guard for the past 13 years since this thread started, him being off guard has nothing to do with his accuracy drop, the point of the off guard thing was to show that Goku wasn't at his maximum like vs the lazer and was vulnerable, the reason I brought up the accuracy drop is to explain why UI didn't save off guard Goku, because if I didn't that would mean granolah blitzed Goku's UI, that's the whole reason granolah was able to K.O. Goku, because if UI's accuracy hadn't dropped then Goku would've reacted to the attack with UI.
Axxtentacle said:
But could he even do enough damage to Vegeta fast enough? Because, yes, Vegeta would let himself get hit. But will Goku be able to **** up Goku THAT MUCH before time runs out for UI? Vegeta's growth made a pretty stompish match into a not-very-stompish match very quickly, only in SSJBE at that. And UE is that but on crack.
Click to expand...
Yes, the gap is big enough for Goku to easily beat on vegeta and give him severe wounds before he can get strong enough to retaliate.
 
Ik I'm late but

who tf said that SSGSSE Vegeta > UI Goku? Granola flat out says "your destructive power is lacking so you make up for it with quantity"
at least in the english translation

also

my take on the fight is

I'm overall voting Goku. I don't see how Vegeta can ever land a hit on Goku, since he has no answer for his Instinctive Reaction. Sure, Vegeta will grow stronger, but he's still being constantly throttled by UI Goku while Goku is no worse for wear. Even with Vegeta's insane Reactive Evolution, there wouldn't be anything he would be able to do.
 
The current chapter basically proves what the Goku side was saying.

Goku only lost because he was unaware of Granolah's vital organ aiming technique, and thus got cheap shotted while his guard was down, confirmed by Goku that now that he knows Granolah's technique, it won't work on him anymore, and then proceeded to fight him well even with just SSB and holds own very well considering how severly he got hurt

Basically that proves that Granolah isn't actually stronger than Perfected UI Goku and the only reason he won is because he used cheap tactics such as aiming for vital organs
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
And also proves that vegeta is for some reason fodder. Bruh like how do SSB Goku and UE vegeta fight the same dude and end up performing similarly, like what did goku eat in his breakfast that day to get a zenkai that good?
Click to expand...
Yeah I'm not buying that Goku got a zenkai so big it makes the ones on Namek looks like nothing, especially since Goku was explicably NOT healed. He's not Goku Black who don't need to heal to zenkai
 
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