Vizer04
He/Him- 5,097
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Yep, that's how fast Vegeta's strenght grows.
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Ultra Instinct Goku vs. Ultra Ego Vegeta
- Thread starter Kin201
- Start date
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I think healing is fine, he only does it upon transforming, he never regens while in the form.
ezOk I concede ( I am unwatching. Both side made their arguments )
Valiant_Abyss
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"A god of destruction taught me that power derived solely from instinct is unbounded." FRA.
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Bruh everyone is still voting vegeta... sigh.
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Keep in mind, Granolah's strong suit of his race is literally accuracy, while UI's strong suit is dodging. Goku lost because he had a losing matchup to Granolah from the beginning, which was only amplified by Ultra Instincts accuracy drop. Vegeta doesn't have that leverage of having insane accuracy like Granolah does, instead his power comes from the raw urge to destroy.
So tell me, would Vegeta even be able to land a shot on Goku's vitals?
So tell me, would Vegeta even be able to land a shot on Goku's vitals?
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NO IT DOESN'T MATTER, vegeta wouldn't be able to land a vital attack because the only reason granolah could do it is because of the sharingan eye which could see through UI and the accuracy drop, and the reason he one shot is because goku was off guard while getting his opening exploited. Goku out stats and the stamina issues and accuracy issues are miniscule, Goku should easily win but yet everyone is still voting vegeta...
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I wouldn't say that Goku easily wins. I say that this match is happening too early. We still haven't seen the bounds and the weaknesses of Vegeta, we've only seen a Vegeta vs Semi-Perfect Cell scenario, and we have the likely beginning of Perfect Cell here (metaphor for how Granolah will likely be).
Keep in mind that Ultra Ego is designed to be an equal match for Ultra Instinct, with power and defense for Ultra Ego while Ultra Instinct has speed and skill. Ultra Ego Vegeta, however, does not necessarily have tools to counter Ultra Instinct Goku, even though they are likely equals, while Goku has the tools to somewhat counter Vegeta.
I vote Goku.
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If anyone has counters for Vegeta, or if there are any points I have not responded to, I will respond to them.
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I responded to all the vegeta points myself.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,211
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No, because Vegeta cannot spot the vitals of Goku like Granolah can, especially with his attitude while in the form
Vietthai96
He/Him- 9,309
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Also, Goku in UI is more versatile than UG Vegeta, the prince again just fight with the style of as hard as possible, that kind of style is a suicide move against a form like UI
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If Granola was weaker he would have shattered his arm like Moro did. Nothing suggests the form was losing strength and durability; just the autododge.
Ssbe Vegeta was provoking Granola, and he still failed to one shot him like he did Goku. He even used Oatmeal with his own Eye and still failed to one shot Vegeta.
Ultra Ego was only taking hits because Vegeta was allowing them to hit him. It wasn't until the damage toll and power boost did Granola start pushing back. Then he needed to get a second boost to find a weakness in Vegeta's Hakai Ball, and shoot it. It was Vegeta's own attack blowing up in his face that downed him, not Granola's.
Ultra Ego doesn't have a stamina limitation. Its only when Vegeta abuses the zenkai ability does he face drawbacks.
Ssbe Vegeta was provoking Granola, and he still failed to one shot him like he did Goku. He even used Oatmeal with his own Eye and still failed to one shot Vegeta.
Ultra Ego was only taking hits because Vegeta was allowing them to hit him. It wasn't until the damage toll and power boost did Granola start pushing back. Then he needed to get a second boost to find a weakness in Vegeta's Hakai Ball, and shoot it. It was Vegeta's own attack blowing up in his face that downed him, not Granola's.
Ultra Ego doesn't have a stamina limitation. Its only when Vegeta abuses the zenkai ability does he face drawbacks.
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Goku was off guard jus like with the lazer scene, the reason why UI didn't prevent this is because granolah exploited an opening with his sharingan as a result of the accuracy drop.
I don't know what you're talking about man. Vegeta was clearly defeated by the attack before transforming, but if you're gonna argue that he didn't get k.o'd therefore he's stronger, then my counter is that 1. Vegeta was not off guard in fact he was ready for the attack and even tried to prevent it which made granolah barely connect 2. Granolah hit vegeta in the guts which is a non vital organ but hit Goku in the heart who's durability was significantly lowered as well as followed it up with a punch directly to the wound hole.
Even at the beginning of the fight, granolah was able to make vegeta bleed in UE, and vegeta in SSBE was already comparable to granolah, this makes the UE boost tiny compared to UI. UE's voluntary damage thing is one of it's weaknesses too, which is why he lost against an opponent who was also gaining power. Vegeta was downed by his AND granolah's attack colliding not just his, granolah at the end of the fight grew enough to dismantle vegeta's hakai ball relatively easily.
Yeah he probably does have stamina problems too but we can't say anything abou that for now. But Goku's stamina issues are negligible im this fight so is the accuracy drop, and he also has a massive stat advantage that's why he wins.
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1: UI Goku got hit in a vital part, his heart, while he wasn't maintaining complete concentration on UI, as he was thinking. Granolah also had preparation time to prepare the attack and launch it on Goku.
2: The implication that SSBE Vegeta is stronger than MUI Goku (which is totally what your implying), is straight up BS. It's suggesting that SSBKKx20 Goku is stronger than MUI. And, when Granolah landed a vital blow that Vegeta was able to barely block, he still dropped out of SSBE instantly.
3: Granolah was holding back on SSBE Vegeta, demonstrating their immense power difference. If you say that SSBE Vegeta was provoking Granolah, this would likely break his concentration.
4: If UE Vegeta allows Granolah to hit him, why tf wouldn't he do the same thing for UI Goku? Even so, UE Vegeta gave Granolah no time to think, while Granolah had to prepare for a solid while to hit UI Goku.
5: Granolah gained no boost from fighting Vegeta, and if he did, it would be counteracted by Vegeta's own boost in power, making the argument that Granolah had to get a boost pointless.
6: Granolah's pushed back and exploded Vegeta's Hakai Ball. By DBZ and DBS Beam Struggle Logic, that means that Granolah's Beam = Vegeta's Hakai Ball.
7: How do you know this? We haven't seen what UE is capable of yet. If anything, the reason why you think that Vegeta in UE is stronger than UI Goku is because Vegeta likely has Pain Tolerance, as it's likely that the form limits what pain Vegeta feels, but it's still there, which will catch up with him eventually.
We haven't seen what UE Vegeta is capable of, this match should be remade once we have seen the full ability of UE Vegeta.
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Goku FRA
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Goku was speed blitz. Not caught off guard. The Ultra Instinct allows the user to evade attacks faster than him as shown when he used it earlier to dodge Granola's attacks in base. If Granola was slower he wouldn't have been able to hit him. The laser hit Goku from his back, not his front, so a false equivalence. If it pierced through his front then you would have an argument. Granola charged forward to Goku and Goku was too slow to react. Losing accuracy only mean losing the autododge. Goku doesnt lose the stat increase, not to mention, he fought Moro in MUI longer than he did Granola, and he still was able to react to him. Why? Moro was weaker and slower.
Umm no, Vegeta was taking hits the whole fight before even transforming, and instead of going down in one shot he caught the blow to save himself. If Goku was more powerful than FP Granola, he would have reacted using his own speed withou needing the autododge. Goku heard Vegeta and if he was faster then Granola, he would have reacted in time.
Voluntary damage isn't a weakness. Lol Vegeta has to choose to take damage for it to be a weakness. Without taking a damage he was stronger than FP Granola before his two power boosts. And wrong, Vegeta was downed by the hakai ball exploding in his face. Nothing suggests Granola's energy was part of it. The eye doesn't increase stats just accuracy. The second eye allows him shoot the hakai ball with perfect timing.
Nah, nothing suggests MUI is stronger. Not a single piece of evidence. Just headcanon.
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Doesn't vegeta have some kind of very potent Reactive evolution in his final transformation?
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1) Goku did the same thing against Moro and his hand broke instead. The same exact part of his chest too.
2) Ssbe being stronger makes sense because Vegeta is stronger in base than Goku in base. Especially after Spirit Control training. Post-Yardrst Vegeta in base was enough to make Moro eat more planets in preparation. Vegeta also spent the last months training his base strength while Gok focused on using UI in base. Vegeta even said he uses it too much.
3) Nothing suggests he was holding back. He used his full power to end the fights quickly to go after Freeza. He was angry as well, and breaking concentration would mean breaking his will to hold back. Nice try though.
4) He did it against Granola because that's how he gained the form the first time. Lol Goku isn't Granola. Vegeta even realized his mistake in the chapter. So why would he repeat it?
5) Granola did gain a boost. He says so. Lol
6) No he didn't push it back. He awakened a second eye which gave him greater accuracy. He jus made it explode instantly. There is literally no pushing back in the panel.
7) Until we see it, you can't claim it has stamina issues. The burden of proof is on you. Vegeta doesn't even mention a stamina issue just him taking too much damage purposely.
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That's because he was off guard, when you're off guard your power level itself drops, which means you durability AP speed everything, and you become extremely vulnerable. Also granolah hit Goku in an opening he saw through his red eye, this opening allows granolah to attack a vital spot without goku being able to retaliate, that's why it's an opening. The lazer example is still true, if goku was indeed at his normal speed as a SSB, then that lazer would be moving in slow motion and Goku would've sensed noticed it, but it wasn't targeting an opening, which proves that his speed is also effected. But granolah also has a teleportation technique which could also be used to immediately get in front of Goku, but you can't really prove he used it, just something to keep in mind.
No this is bullshit, Goku and UI moro were evenly matched, it's just that the stamina and accuracy drop are negligible in a real fight, it's just that granolah's eye power allows him to exploit even the tiniest openings.
So your point is? Did you forget Goku also fought granolahs clone and took heavy damage before going into UI? But that doesn't matter, the point is vegeta caught the blow and was ready for it, and the attack barely connected and he was hit in a non vital point and you try to use this to argue that SSBE vegeta is stronger than UI Goku (which is a ridiculous belief by itself) who was suppressed and off guard/ vulnerable, as well as was hit in the heart and punched right in the wound. This is the false equivalence right here.
And the faster than granolah thing I already adressed, Goku was suppressed and off guard as well as granolah used an opening which goku wouldn't be able to react to since it's a vital/weakspot, that's why goku fell. This doesn't mean that Goku is slower than granolah at full power.
It's a weakness because he can only get stronger by taking heavy damage, so against an opponent much stronger, he'd die before he gets strong enough. Without taking damage he was only slightly stronger than a full power granolah who had no amps yet, and that granolah could make him bleed. His first power boost made him even stronger as at the end of the fight vegeta was all bloodied and dizzy while granolah was fine and casual, the second amp the red eye is a non stat amp.
Oh so you're just gonna ignore granolah's arrow that beam clashed with vegeta's attack that literally matched it's force and canceled it out? The second eye giving him perfect timing is head canon.
Funny you say that while you're the one using head canon and shit. Also ignoring that Goku and vegeta have equal bases at the beginning of the fight, yet at the same time make the asinine claim that SSBE > UI.
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1) UI's ability is when the user maintains complete concentration and allows the mind to focus on other things, usually making Goku look completely emotionless and calm. Lets see how UI Goku looks before he is hit by Granolah.
Here is the link
Look at how surprised he is, look at how he looks visually, he is surprised and his UI likely does not have complete concentration.
2) Did you just say that it makes sense for SSBE Vegeta to be stronger than Ultra Instinct? I'm sorry what? That doesn't even remotely make sense for Goku's Ultra Instinct form, a technique of the angels, that even in it's unperfected variant was stronger than SSBE? It doesn't matter how Moro ate more planets, plus, did you see this? While Granolah, who again, is someone with HIS LITERAL RACES MAIN ABILITY, being accuracy focused, had to make Goku's UI wore out, instead of analyzing SSBE Vegeta, attacked him head on, with him likely even being slightly casual. What?!
3) Yes. A lot does. He was literally demonstrating the huge gap in their power by stomping him.
4) Vegeta was prolonging the fight because it's in his Saiyan nature, which in Ultra Ego, ultimately gets the better of him and is the aspect of his personality that is magnified.
5) Yeah and I also said that I can destroy planets, doesn't necessarily mean I did. Again, is counteracted by the fact that Vegeta also got a boost from fighting.
6) Good point
7) Exactly! So why is this match already being made when we don't have the proper knowledge of Ultra Ego besides it gives him the boost? Every insane Dragon Ball powerup that obliterates almost all of it's enemies (SSJ3, SSB, KK, SSBKK, UI) has had some weakness. So saying that Ultra Ego won't is not something that's gonna happen. This part is mainly just saying, "This is like making a thread on UI when we've only seen UI -Sign- in the ToP!"
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It's just the "Saiyan's grow stronger as they fight" schtick unless mentioned otherwise.
How? Hakai Ball? Specify.
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Actually vegeta's ultra ego makes him get significantly stronger the more he takes damage and gets hurt. This stacks on top of his saiyan biology reactive evolution.
Veget's hakai is not yet potent enough to erase people like beerus. He uses it by blowing up debris which creates massive explosions which he use to attack. Pretty lame tbh.
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Since OP is gone, i'm going to start counting the votes:
Vegeta: Vizer04, TauanVictor, WarriorofMite, SirAlex09, Bernkastelll, Korby, Spinoirr, Crimson_Shadow101, KingTempest (9)
Goku: FluffyCreatureZ, Gilad Hyperstar, ShockingShoes, RisingIons (4)
Granolah solos (Incon):
I think it's still 50-50 for who wins so if everyone else is down to keep going and not add this to the profiles, sick.
Vegeta: Vizer04, TauanVictor, WarriorofMite, SirAlex09, Bernkastelll, Korby, Spinoirr, Crimson_Shadow101, KingTempest (9)
Goku: FluffyCreatureZ, Gilad Hyperstar, ShockingShoes, RisingIons (4)
Granolah solos (Incon):
I think it's still 50-50 for who wins so if everyone else is down to keep going and not add this to the profiles, sick.
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It's already grace, and add me for Vegeta
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alright, added to the post above
Valiant_Abyss
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Didn't grace already end days ago?
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yeah, so this can be added, but i'd enjoy having more arguments with people
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What grace ended? I didn't even know. But I debunked the points for vegeta.
Gilad_Hyperstar
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Wait what is the vote count??? The OP seemed to ignore many votes
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And they even requested for it to be added.
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,211
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So... How many votes they actually have?
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It's in my post
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,211
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If there's still a debate over the outcome, then the discussion can still continue even after grace ends
Gilad_Hyperstar
He/Him- 11,211
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We should wait with it since there's clearly still debate over the outcome of this match
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