Touhou Thread 3: Electric Bangaloo: Doremy Sweet's MSS and MFTL+ Adventure, Infinite Speed Tendency and Large Planet Crusader

[Aurugermil]

"They say that a refined fairy's energy
exceeds even that of a kishi."

Reisen's Scenario in LoLk when she fights Clownpiece.

Like Andy said and ZUN already confirmed through his recent LOLK interview that Kishin is stronger than those fairies outside, but she neither can't go nor see what's out there, so she didn't know how strong enemy is.

 

[Andykhang]

^Not that Kishin (Rare God), the Kishin (Oni God) that live in hell and control lesser oni.

 

[Aurugermil]

Isn't Celestials supposed to be able to defeat Kishin Chief to prolong their life? (most people think the assassin is a shinigami but it is actually Kishin Chief, because living is a sin in Touhou)

Maybe Clownpiece is not lying, afterall she came from Hell too, the same Hell where Kishin Chief exist and appoint those Yamas their position.

 

[Andykhang]

^"They said", that mean someone tell it to her (most likely Junko). That kinda put some doubt into her word.

 

[Aurugermil]

"They", what if they refer to Junko and Hecatia. Clownpiece is a subordinate of Hecatia and Junko is not the type of character who want to lie because of her purity.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

True, I kinda forgot how the Celestials beats Kishin Chief on occasion, maybe that would warrant a Tenshi upgrade too?

Still, as Auru said, it is unlikely to be a lie.

 

[Andykhang]

"They", what if they refer to Junko and Hecatia. Clownpiece is a subordinate of Hecatia and Junko is not the type of character who want to lie because of her purity.

I don't know, she look more like the "revenge mom" type that would do anything for her dead children. Also, remember the "goaded" thing with Hecate?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well exactly, she is so much of a "Revenge mom" that she has become a being of pure veangence. I doubt that someone who is just focused on trying to take down her enemy would just lie to impress.

 

[Aurugermil]

Trivia from thwiki about her spellcard. She expresses her intention to kill the playable character, so her spell cards are designed "purely" to do just that rather than showing off various kinds of patterns.

If she is a type of "let me do anything for muh revenge", then her last spell card will have a bit intricate patterns with the same killer potential.

i don't remember what is with that goaded?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Err..What are you trying with that last sentence? Sorry I didn't understand.

 

[Yamatohime]

True, I kinda forgot how the Celestials beats Kishin Chief on occasion, maybe that would warrant a Tenshi upgrade too?
Still, as Auru said, it is unlikely to be a lie.

I very sceptical about Tenshi being able to best Kishin. At least with her own power. Of course, if Hisou no Tsurugi has many additional hax we do not know...

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Mmh, why so? As far as I know Tenshi is kinda part of a higher family of celestials, and they kinda NEEDS to beat them in order to extend their lifetime.

 

[Yamatohime]

Mmh, why so? As far as I know Tenshi is kinda part of a higher family of celestials, and they kinda NEEDS to beat them in order to extend their lifetime.

That's exactly why: their numerous. Basicaly you have to fight number of powerful Celestials in order to get their soul.

P.S.: They do not need to beat Kishin Chief in order to live long. They need to beat him in order to not die.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yeah but to not die = extending your lifetime.

Also even if they do it in group (To which I haven't seen any proof), they still should be in the same general tier.

 

[Yamatohime]

Yeah but to not die = extending your lifetime.

Huh? If you're killed = dead. If you are not hunted down = alive. You don't need to fight enemy to live long life.

Also even if they do it in group (To which I haven't seen any proof), they still should be in the same general tier.

Nope. Celestials have different ranks. Nawis are very high-ranking Celestials if we can take Eirin words for truth. And even their kid possess powerful weapon.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well that would include Tenshi, which is kinda the one we are talking about.

Also, Celestials are kinda always hunted down by Kishin, so they have to always repel them to avoid death.

 

[Andykhang]

So again, Clownpiece's speed isn't gonna be MFTL+, right?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Andy

Not to be rude but you didn't exactly answer WHY would Junko be lying, and since Junko pretty much creates gods, it's not likely to be a lie either. Although at best she would be "Possibly" MFTL+. Even without that it's clear that Clownpiece is much above other fairies and wouldn't scale to mooks.

 

[Andykhang]

^Again, god include someone that harvest and sell potato in the autumm. You won't get much strength even when becoming a god if you don't have faith.

Also, Clownpiece claim she's as strong as a Kishin. But even an ordinary magician could defeat her. And Kishin is the one that could collect rain in the entire Gensokyo to one place just to trap a hermit. (And don't even tried to bump up Marisa level after this, aside from Master Spark, she is just an ordinary magician)

Clownpiece is strong, i agree, but she isn't going to be as strong as you think she is (if you think speed = MFTL+). At best she is probably Cirno level of speed.

 

[Aurugermil]

The term of Marisa title of "ordinary magician" doens't mean "common magician", it means "ordinary human magician".

Zun said it is akin to ordinary person without innate abilities, but her true strength lies in her ability to use one of the highest classes of magic power that humans can use. According to Perfect Memento in Strict Sense, it's strange for a human to have mastery of magic of this level.

She's also faced very powerful humans and youkai and was able to solve a number of incidents in various scenarios, all being high achievements. But there were also times in Phantasmagoria of Flower View where she was defeated by Cirno and Mystia Lorelei, or on Great Fairy Wars.

The attached text file for Imperishable Night says "Since the player characters are of the Last Boss class (But Reimu and the gang are stronger than that last boss class)..." Marisa is likely to be stronger than the last boss class, but it's unclear whether or not this is limited to just danmaku battles or if it also includes unrestricted combat ability.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Are you legit using Spell Card powerscaling here? Yes, Clownpiece lost to Marisa in a Spell Card fight, but so did Hecatia, who is currently God Tier, your point?

My point with the God things is that we have Junko who should have way more than the power needed to create someone stronger than a Kishin, and an explanation WHY she would be able to. She also lacks reasons to lie to Clownpiece and possess reasons to make Clownpiece so strong ("Fightning" lunarians).

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So while waiting for Andy to comes back from the dead, about Reimu's Infinite Speed.

It seems like the "Floating out of Reality" part of Fantasy Nature was removed, as it seems to be source-less. Now it just seems like she floats away so that no one can touch her, but given the fact it says that no one can beat her at all with any means using this attack probably means she is still immune to any hax the girls possess, which would be Time manipulation and all of Yukari's hax, but I don't know if it would be quantifiable.

 

[Aurugermil]

Divine Spirit "Fantasy Seal -Blink-", from IN:

The world as Reimu sees it is quite different from your perspective. It feels like the player has been sealed in the Reimu Dimension.

Reimu can create Dimension. Hue.

Anyway "Floating out if Reality" or "Floating out of everything" came from Imperishable Night Last Words Spell Card. If it were me, I would listen to Zun's words and the assumption from those Nips compared to English speaker assumption. Because it is their mother language afterall so there will be less mistake about it.

 

[Andykhang]

Clownpiece: Again and again, you don't just need a lot of purity to create a powerful god. The probable reason Clownpiece could be so strong with your assumption is that her species is knowable in the beginning, and this is a pinnacle of that.

And anyway, I'm could agree that she could be as strong as a Kishin, but there's no way she could be MFTL+, as there's no direct proof for that. The one she could be compare to as this point is Kishin, which have no Speed stat, the Celestial, which through power-scaling could only be Relativistic, and the Fairy itself, which is the same.

 

[Andykhang]

Divine Spirit "Fantasy Seal -Blink-", from IN:

The world as Reimu sees it is quite different from your perspective. It feels like the player has been sealed in the Reimu Dimension.

Reimu can create Dimension. Hue.

Anyway "Floating out if Reality" or "Floating out of everything" came from Imperishable Night Last Words Spell Card. If it were me, I would listen to Zun's words and the assumption from those Nips compared to English speaker assumption. Because it is their mother language afterall so there will be less mistake about it.

Second to that. Though I have no idea what to said about Reimu Dimension. (like, isn't that put her in the rank of Yukari? Or at least Miko?)

 

[Yamatohime]

I think it's completely pockect dimension. She just phase out of reality.

 

[Andykhang]

So if she could actually do that, it would be on the rank of Miko then.

So we still agree on Infinity speed? I kinda want her to have Immesurable because i found enough reason for that, but that's just me.

 

[Yamatohime]

So if she could actually do that, it would be on the rank of Miko then.
So we still agree on Infinity speed? I kinda want her to have Immesurable because i found enough reason for that, but that's just me.

We see that she still anchored to reality by some means. So... No. =)

 

[Andykhang]

^To me, it's more like i can't find enough proof for that. Still dream of the day Tier 1 Reimu finally been revealed.

Edit: And what do you mean "by some mean"? If she could ignored the force, and Sakuya's Time thing, wouldn't that mean she ignored the 6-dimensional Universe altogether?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Bruh Andy, the MFTL+ thing scales to regular rabbits like Reisen, and the Kishin are possibly on par with Gensokyo Top Tier such as Suika, no way in heck are the Kishin that much slower than even Reisen.

Also, Reimu will never get to Immeasurable, since it requres you to be 4 dimensional, which is 2-C to 2-A. At best this is Infinite Speed, but even then it seems like the IN Spell Card description only mentions that Reimu is out of range of everything in Reality, not that she is actually out of Reality.

 

[Andykhang]

Wait, but Reisen is still Relativistic at best. How did she get knocked up to MFTL+?

And why Reimu can't be 2-C in the first place? Beside, isn't out of everything in reality pretty much out of reality? Unless you suggested she could reside in placed like the border of reality.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

She did the MFTL+ feat alongside the others Protag bruh.

Because Reimu being 2-C would be a huge outlier.

Well it's still somewhat vague, since it could be just a special kind of intagability that makes her immune to everything. I'd love to have Reimu at infinite speed but we need more proof than that.

 

[Andykhang]

^That is pretty much the same as ignoring reality when she's immune to it's law though (since law is in "everything").

And true that, but if she is ignoring the law of physics, she pretty much could go infinity with no force at all (or the opposite: infinity force), a thing that would be mind-bogging to reality-abiding citizens like us.

Edit:I agree, 2-C would be a really huge outlier, if you consider Immeasurable= 2

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Seems like speculation. The best we could say is that Reimu is outside the reach of every character, including Sauya's space time hax but eh. I mean there is some possible Infinite speed feats but they sounds all a bit hyperbole-y (Crossing distances that has been called infinite, twice)

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Well there are already people who can manipulate distance and space, I wouldn't be surprised. Though keep an eye on those for now. Don't want to use hyperboles. Maybe the next Touhou game or article would clear things up.

So everything solid then? TMiko got planet buff too?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I guess we just have to wait to see if more people oppose these changes. If not, I guess we can proceed.

 

[Andykhang]

Well there are already people who can manipulate distance and space, I wouldn't be surprised. Though keep an eye on those for now. Don't want to use hyperboles. Maybe the next Touhou game or article would clear things up.

Not very likely though, since ZUN want to keep this as the biggest mysteries of the game. Maybe it will be revealed in his last game?

 

[Andykhang]

Reisen: I forgot, isn't going from Earth to Moon =/= MFTL+

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It's more related to the Dream World conundrum.

 

[Yamatohime]

Is Alice got some buff to compete with Marisa on regular basis?