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Touhou Thread 3: Electric Bangaloo: Doremy Sweet's MSS and MFTL+ Adventure, Infinite Speed Tendency and Large Planet Crusader

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Well, like I said so:

-Can't be the IRL stars since they started from the youkai mountain and suddenly were in space, so they are in the Dream World

-The Dream World imitates the real world, so them being real stars is more likely

-Doremy created the whole Moon despite only needing the Lunar Capital

-Dreams are clearly real, being able to damage the players

-Very unlikely that everyone is capable of manipulatin the dream world as they want

-The dream world isn't strictly between Earth and Moon, so limiting it to 300 000 km in size is a bit faulty

-The direct way to moon and Earth is really hard to go through, explaning why most peeps used the Dream World instead of directly flying to the moooon

-Doremy more than likely created the dream the protags are in herself

So, imo, it should at least be considered in profiles.
 
So uh. As a kinda of bump, here is a re-cap of the current things:

Large Planet: Given that 2 feats of this level exist in the same tier and that the previous top tier no longer have a feat to hold these back, it seems pretty much agreed upon.

MSS: Unclear with the validity of the stars, but given the proof pointing at it being true, "Possibly" seems like the safest choice

MFTL+: Same

Infinite speed: Reimu's got debunked. Kaguya is still in suspent (But I'd prefer we take care of these 2 above beforehand)
 
Again, seems more like intangability to everything for now. Since there have been no clear statement of her transcending said things.
 
Again, that's a pretty thin barrier between what you said there (pretty ironic for Reimu). But well, no more comment about this.
 
Askin' that again, but is there anyone objecting those changes? This thread has gone on for way too long.
 
well Infinite Speed is down the trash for now.

Large Planet seems mostly accepted.

MSS and MFTL+ is still iffy but not enough iffy to completely ignores. So seems like most accepted "Possibly" instead of just replacing stuff.
 
I think everything has been concluded in all honesty. But maybe we should send a pm/message to Donttalk just in case if he wants to say anything else on this.

Though I still feel like Reimu being immune to time effects mean, ex being slowed down or erased from existence, might really mean immeasurable/infinite. Then again I'm the only one that may think that so oh well.
 
For Reimu's stuff and thing we would need someone who know that stuff better than I do tbh. Like DontTalk. I'll go knock on his door I guess.
 
Ehh... I didn't read this thread for quite a bit, since I was busy.

Anyone mind giving me a summary of the current state of things here?
 
CoreOfimBalance(COB) said:
I think everything has been concluded in all honesty. But maybe we should send a pm/message to Donttalk just in case if he wants to say anything else on this.
Though I still feel like Reimu being immune to time effects mean, ex being slowed down or erased from existence, might really mean immeasurable/infinite. Then again I'm the only one that may think that so oh well.
Click to expand...
I'm also think that too, so you're not alone.
 
@DontTalk

Basically...

We have 2 Large Planet feat now of people around the same level of power (Miko making a Pocket Realm with a Moon in it) So it's very unlikely to be an outlier.

Dreams are most likely real and physical, as they can hurt the physical body of the protags. Assuming a powerboost when inside the dream world is quite unreasnoable too. Seems like the only thing is if the Stars are truly there or just projections.

Dreams in the Dream World most of the time imitates the real world, and Doremy herself have created the whole moon for no real reason since only the Lunar Capital was needed. It also is consistent with the fact that Hou Yi probably destroyed multiple stars instead of one (Since both the Moon and Hell having the same star is unlikely, and that Hecatia's profile says "suns")

They are argument on both side, so safest bet seems to be put at "possibly" for both MSS and MFTL+

The newest translation for Reimu's ability is more like "Flying away from every damage possible" so it seems more like intangablity than the previous one making it seems like she is out of the universe. But there is also the fact that she can get away from Sakuya's Space-Time hax which interests peeps. Since to escape time you kinda have to be outside space time.

For Kaguya's thing idk.
 
For Kaguya we still haven't found the page for the femtoseconds thing on Silent Sinner in the Blue. So mind linking us that too? Just for ref.

And yeah no 1-B Reimu or facing Yog Sothoth either so rest assured on that.
 
@COB I actually found where it said that but I didn't tell you becuase you were a bad boy. Like I said doe I would prefer we get the MSS MFTL+ Planet thing done with before tackling Kaguya.
 
Marisa: a) The feat is still unquantifiable, so just by that means I would not just write it down as large planet level or anything.

b) Not all spellcards are literal. Example given "Eight planets in two orbits, opposing one another.
The planets do align, but there's still a little space between them. Retrograde orbits are rarer than this." From Blazing Star "Planetary Revolution. The planets refered to here are clearly not real planets. Marisa has never demonstrated anything close to this otherwise or even a type of magic with similar properties to this. So I question this.

Not sure about the feat of miko, as I haven't looked through the more recent games (12.3 and further as active). Mind to give a link?

"Dreams are physical": To quote doremy here: "Prepare yourself well, dreaming human of the physical world." So the physical world describes a set of things that is not of the place they currently are at (or that doremy isn't from), which is the dream world. Quote is from reimus scenario. So no the dream world is by no means physical, its stated that it isn't.

"Dreams in the Dream World most of the time imitates the real world"

Quote from doremys profile: "She lives in the world of dreams. The dreams of all living creatures are, in fact, connected at the deepest levels. This is why in dreams, you can visit places you've never seen, meet people you've never seen, and find glitches you've never seen either."

The dream world is quite literally the place where you (as in usually your non physical body) is at when you dream. As such to a degree its true that it would most of the time seem similar to the real world, but that doesn't eman that its structure and properties is the same. Imitation only means good enough to seem like real, but not real. In this case the stars just like the random red lines and birds don't have to be real, they can very well just exist so that the one that dreams feels believes they are real. In short the fact that they are dreams is enough reason to doubt anything there works much like it usually should.

In my opinion we shouldn't go for MSS or MHS here even if possibly, its just too much of a stat difference for way to many characters. At least that is my view of it.


BTW. you asked about the femtosecond thing. Its fromhere.

To quote: "Femto, to put it simply, the instantanous. A period of time so short that normal living beings can't even imagine it. Tiem is made up of countess instants so short you can't percieve them" So Femto = instant it seems?
 
A) Again, it seems very unlikely to be lower than Large Planet. Moving a planet a few meters is very hard to see, and most fiction writes refers to "moving a planet" as "moving it so it is seeable to the planet as a whole.

B) And yet no "planets" are seen in Marisa's Spell Card, only the meteors. There isn't anything ressembling a planet.

In http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Part_1


I live in a space I created myself. Living somewhere that nobody can bother them is the essence of what a hermit is.
Seems like a mere name to me. People usually sees the Dream World as Non-Physical, but it clearly shows feats of being physical. A mere mental construct wouldn't be able to hurt real people or replace a real place. That's like saying Gensokyo isn't real because it's a "fantasy land" or because people inside aren't "real".

Yet again, the whole moon was created despite the fact that only the Lunar Capital was needed.

And that's why we put it at "Possibly", as it isn't solid enough to be their definite stats but still notable enough that adding it to profiles should be done so.

Well, I don't think "Femto" means a literal femtosecond here, as much shorter timeframes exists (Such as Attosecond) and the Moon not knowing about it doesn't make much sense. Not only that but in a femtosecond time still flows, albeit slowly. Here, it seems to imply Time only flows because we can't detect a Femto. So, logically, if we did time wouldn't flow.
 
Though it would scale well off of Reimu's planetary feat Yin Yang Orbs and the other grander feats like moon reflection shattering (then again that's debunked to lower levels). And I do agree on that argument since we can't just take all names in face value. Had that issue with Infamous on gigawatt claws and megawatt hammer. But what I'm saying is basically, all of the characters had grand feats before. Reimu's abilitywh


And Saikou means this http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Senkai A place that Miko has created. Has a moon on it too and different weathers


Then again no one seemed to be 'asleep' in a way though it could explain the path towards the moon via the dream world being... well a path to the moon. It's a possibility that the world imitates the real world but the vastness and the world itself could be its own, just like that one in PC-98 which is slipping my tongue today.


Dreams in the dream world immitates the real world. So wouldn't that mean that it's specifically the dreams that imitates it and not any physical aspects of that realm?


And agreed on it being a world that anyone could get into. But it takes a lot of effort it seems to actually wield the true power of the dream world. That could be connected or associated with how the imitation system works. If one can figure out it's a dream then maybe that's how they would bring chaos and essentially go anywhere/become anything at all. And if Doremy can do all of that, creating, erasing, and switching dream worlds... Well she's really quite godly in that world then. But basically if she can manipulate all of those, then that might mean she's that strong on that place.


Dayum. Those are some powerful ropes. Should be in Toyohime's equipment. So an infinite amount of time could have an infinite amount of femto? It's not just some sort of quantity for time and value after all. But if Kaguya could basically manipulate that then wouldn't it mean that Kaguya can comprehend time on that level? Femto seems to be the building blocks of time and everything in existence.

Edit - Formatting got screwy so I fixed it. And how's Star Yukari and Suika then?
 
Suika is kinda unrelated to this mess apart from scaling.

If by Star Yukari you mean the "Constelation creating" stuff, no one has really talked about it.
 
^More like "Constelation Naming" or "Recording", like all other star-gazer do. Just that 1: She's pretty famous in the youkai community as a Sage (basically aincient scientist celebrity) and 2: It contain other Youkai celebrity to the mix. That's why to them, it have a ******* deep meaning (for the smart one, that is), and for them, meaning carried strength.

Edit: So, in a way, Mamizou saying about how power attract more power is perfectly correct.
 
So lets focus on the planet part for now, so that this doesn't get so chaotic (and since I am tired of writing long responses, just for my browser to close on me).

We have no idea about any circumstances here. Its not like it is that anyone saw it happen, we don't know timeframe, we don't know distance. So for all we know this feat can be absolutely anything.

Large Planet level would be moving 2 uranus at 11400 m/s, which is far beyond what we know not that I support such an approximation in general.


With that lets talk about the more interesting aka quantifiable part, the senkai part.

Where does the moon thing come from? I can't find it anywhere.
 
Well, Large Planet would also be matching Jupiter's (Which is most often than not seen as a large planet) orbital speed.

Also as I said, moving the planet only a few meter wouldn't be visible at all on the planet as a whole. And seeing the planet as a whole is how most author of fiction sees "Planet moving"

In ULiL, Senkai has a Moon at night http://en.touhouwiki.net/images/6/66/FileTh145The_Divine_Spirit_MausoleumNight.png Since senkai is kinda in a pocket dimension and can be entered from anywhere, even underground, it's very unlikely to be the real moon. For how real the Gensokyo moon is.

Also it's not like it's inconsistent. Utsuho scales to Yatagarasu (Since the spirits avatars of gods (What Okuu ate) are equal to the actual gods), a Lunarian God. Zun implying that objects the size of the moon are their playthings. Doremy's more than likely Large Planet feat. Marisa's possible planet and now Senkai.
 
Well Yatagarasu is the Avatar (Not confused with the "Spirirt" of a god) of Amateratsu, who is the sister of the Top Notch of the Moon, so it kinda counts.
 
^The sister that have a falling out of the family because someone decided to be a douchebag so bad, the sister decided the hotest placed in the solar system is a better alternative. So no.
 
^That i could agree. No one like (and deserve) to be labeled the same as their douche brothers, no matter how famous he can get.

Edit: So, once again we can't agree on the Large Planet thing? We could just put it as a outlier and be done with it.
 
Instead of rushing everyone why don't you wait for the discussion to continue? We're just waiting for Donttalk to talk about the moon feat in all honesty. What's gotten you so shocked that Touhou can be stellar or planetary in level? The debate still continues.
 
A: We had the discussion already vessels don't scale from they god they hold. Compatibility is an issue. Having an powersource of a great amount doesn't imply that you can bring out that much power at once. In other words better vessels can bring out more power of the gods than worse vessels and that any vessel can actually bring out 100% is questionable. So no utsuho does not scale from Yatagarasu.


About Senkai: I would feel that creating a planet + moon is plot wise even more problematic than destroying one. I mean probably all celestials would be capable of doing so as well and given their attitude about space there would be a ton of such planets by now then.

That Senkai is a planet or has a moon is not reliably proven. In its properties it's similar to gensokyo on first look. Gensokyo as well can be entered from everywhere (through being forgotten, while senkai can be entered from everywhere through the principal that any crack contains limitless space). Even though gensokyo doesn't have a moon one can see the moon and even though it isn't that big it has weather. Whenever senkai was talked over it was not said wether it was a planet or anything, but just that it Miko constructed a temple there. So the vasteness of space was seemingly of no great importance.


About marisa: Jupiter and orbital speeds are information you don't have. Jupiter is the heaviest planet in the solar system so suggesting that is pure high ball.

"Seeing planet as a whole" is an interpretation you made up. Such things may be legit if the goal of the character is to change the appearance of the night sky or to use it as a weapon, but such context isn't given. We absolutely don't know the intention behind it, or in which timeframe which amount of change is expected here. Its really just pressing random values from a feat.
 
Well, pretty sure Okuu is like THE best vessel one could get in this case, given her stupidity. Even if she can't uses it properly she still possess said power inside her. On another note Reisen seems to be scared of Okuu's power. Not much by itself but still kinda proves something.

Well it seems like creating an "otherworld" is pretty easy business according to Zun so it seems like creating things in pocket realm is more convenient than creating them in our world.

Also it would be somewhat consistent with Hell being heavily hinted to have it's own star (Despite being, y'know, Underground) as Hecatia was angry the Sun got shot down, but it can't be the same as the moon's since again, Hell is underground.

But the thing is that moving a planet up a few meters wouldn't be visible at all for anyone on earth and too small to be visible from space (And Marisa's whole point is too be flashy af). If it wasn't a visible change I see little to no point in mentioning it. Especially since it says two planets, and moving 2 planets at once would be kinda hard to do with Country level energy if we take the distances into account.
 
You know this topic was kinda just dropped so I'm just going to help revive it by performing a friendly little boop bump.

Boop.
 
Why are you doing this. I mean legit DT is busy af and stuff so I don't think we will get any response from him any time soon, but lemme just re-states my points:

Senkai has no visible stars or anything even at night, and the moon can clearly move with the rotation of Senkai, so it being real is likely. Not only that, but another (bigger) kind of Otherworld has a freakin' Sun in it (As it greatly suffered from the destruction of its sun, yet it's Underground, and the actual Sun was still okay.)

Considering how short the Spell Card is, and that moving the planet a few meters wouldn't be noticeable enough to be worth mentioning, it seems likely to me that it would be Large Planet. Not only that but she is doing it on 2 Planets at once.
 
Oh well didn't know that. I simply thought this thread was forgotten considering no one else commented. I won't do that again then.

But wait you mean there's an actual sun?... So wait who made that?
 
That seems like it, as there isn't any other way they could be affected by a ded sun that this, but we don't know who made hell yet.
 
Lemme just bump this to see if anyone else than DontTalk have opinions about this.
 
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