Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition

[Antvasima]

It is best if you ask all the staff and experienced members listed in the Touhou Project verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Time doesn't pass for Avici... Clearly it's a void then, clearly Reimu can survive in voids, clearly she is 4-(Exterminatus) But yeah just no time for it. Nothing realy big unless you call it the void. That said I'm really not sure what to say here... Usually I'm gung ho but a lot of this is infinite based.

On the other hand the capability to make pocket dimensions and calling something infinite could just be the sheer size of it too. There's been pocket worlds tosses around like with Miko's Senkai and Eirin's probably false but galaxy in a pot.

But then again some of these we don't have exact time frames.

I'll be swayed by voters. Sorry Saikou

 

[Andykhang]

You do realize that Avici could just be looping space around, then hide the detail so that you don't know right? That could also explain the infinite stuff, and it's not like it haven't been done before (Gensokyo a prime example)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Ciruno

In theory it might be infinite speed but in practice it's an outlier, probably.

And when we're dealing with infinite stuff, timeframe hardly matters.

@Andy

Except nothing indicates that. At all. And Reimu deals with spatial stuff all the time, I really doubt she would have been trapped for long.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Looks pretty good to me tbqh

 

[Read_this_post]

Just a question. Isnt it stated by word of god that time and space cant be separated in touhou? Because im kinda sure that creating a new infinite space in a verse like that would be low 2-C automatically.

Though then again, you could make that argument for most high 3-A spaces created on their own.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Ah yes, I believe Ive seen those types that people make.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

@Andy

Avici seems very differently described from Gensokyo's own looping situation.

@Saikou

Hm, that's fair.

Swayed to vote for this for now. But I'm holding a lot of hesitation.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

@Read That'd only apply to Miko's feat(s?). Pretty sure you can still warp space and not warp time too in Touhou otherwise.

 

[Read_this_post]

Not sure if it would only apply to miko or not. Though im pretty sure zun stated time and space are fully intertwined and that manipulating space = manipulating time. If someone manipulates space itself on a universal scale, then im pretty sure its low 2-C (as long as it isnt just a feat of destroying or affecting all the matter within the existing space of course) unless theres something im missing.

I should probably try and find the scan again (unless you are a true nerd and already have it)

Also im pretty sure going by that explanation, kaguyas feat sounds straight up low 2-C (probably wankable to 2-A but lets not go there)

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Honestly my main issue with the "space = time" statement is that it's not a verse-specific thing. That's just how space-time works IRL and how it probably works in most fiction. It's just that in fiction characters can ignore that. In fiction, you can manipulate space or time individually because fiction. So I really don't think we should use that to try and upgrade anyone who has time/spatial manip. Especially since this is like only consistent with Sakuya, not with anyone else who uses spatial manip.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

High 3-A touhou seems fine.

Also, there is a statement about Hecatia creating Infinite realms somewhere. Idk (and Idc) if this is actually 2-A, but if those said realms are not universes, then that could support High 3-A.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Reee stop with that statement. It's not "creating infinite universes at once", it's "can potentially create any number of universes over time". It's about the lack of limit on these universes, not a feat of infinite creation.

Not that this matters since the feat would be 2-A and not High 3-A.

 

[Junkoposter]

its like that infinite cake SCP, she has no limits on how much she can make, she can't just snap infinite amounts into existence at once ovo

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Ok.

Hecatia is possibly 2-A with prep when?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

nooo


I swear I'm just there nicely proposing High 3-A despite previously being adamantly against anything past Tier 4 and now we're discussing Low 2-C and 2-A for some reasons.

 

[Junkoposter]

Low 2-C and 2-A 2hu isnt happening anytime soon, moving on ovo

 

[The_Causality]

Let's bring Yukuri here

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Ok.

Aaaaaaaaaaand ****, there are no High 3-As in Homestucc, well, at least before the revisions go through...

...Aaaaaaaaaaand ****, John is currently High 3-A as in Limited 4D, and by the looks of it, these upgrades are infinite 3D.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

MGQ, now Touhou. You really want to find ways to fight me, are you.

 

[Promestein]

I have no idea how I feel about High 3-A, though the rest is more or less reasonable. I won't argue for or against High 3-A. Have fun with that.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

MGQ, now Touhou. You really want to find ways to fight me, are you.

Not really tbh, because I feel like the Homestuck 2-As are going to be weaker for their tier, but above baseline, so Idk, bu-

Shit I'm derailing, ain't I?

Edit: Why did I mention 2-A? No one in touhou is 2-A (yet)

 

[Read_this_post]

"is that it's not a verse-specific thing" But it was a statement given about the verse itself. If the space = time thing is specified to function that way in a verse, then im pretty sure it indicates creating a universal space would involve creating its time as well. Unless it cant be accepted due to standards (which is probably another issue)

Im obviously not proposing 2-A. I though i made it clear i was joking and it was wank. Im just wondering why the kaguya thing is considered high 3-A and not low 2-C if the feat mentioned involves time.

Btw. Who does this high 3-A stuff scale to again? Is it just those who are currently 4-A or high 4-C or?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Prom heartlessly letting us rip at each other's throat.

@Read

Doesn't matter if it was made for the verse, it still refers to a real-life principle. It's like Marisa saying that nothing can go faster than light. It's not some law specific to the verse, that's just how things are IRL. And it can be ignored by fiction.

Because idk man. High 3-A is more consistent than Low 2-C.

 

[Read_this_post]

Well, touhou is commonly known for appliying rl physics to the verse in a suprising number of ways. If a real life principle is applied directly to the physics verse, then there is really no reason to disregard it unless contradicted (like the no ftl statement). Heck, most calcs involve applying rl principles to fiction. Though tbf, power scaling does rely on picking and choosing which physics can be used in fiction but thats another story. If you maybe wanna leave it under consideration for later or something, ill let it slide.

I dont really see either one as more consistent than the other especially since there is nothing really contradicting low 2-C considering the sheer number of feats listed in the op that sound pretty low 2-C, coupled with the amount of all the omnipresent stuff from gods, silly levels of reality warping and the possible time space thing (which would make nearly everything low 2-C.

Also who does da high 3-A/low 2-C/high 0 scale to exactly? Is that still for discussion?

 

[Junkoposter]

''slams face on table''

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

Why can't we be grateful for High 3-A?

 

[Read_this_post]

Why can't we be grateful for High 3-A?

...Because we are literally discussing the tier for the feat(s) in the op?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

The fact that absolutely no one bar Sakuya follows this rule is enough to disregard it. Also again, this being IRL physics mean it would apply to any verse if we let it slide. Which we don't. It's just that Touhou brought it up more here.

At best there is like, two Low 2-C feats, being Senkai and the Kaguya thing. Meanwhile, we have Komachi's infinite river, Suika's heaven bust, the Yama's Netherworld expanding, Doremy doing her things twice, etc. Also the Gods thing isn't AP at all, and neither is Yukari's Yukari things.

Depends what feats we accept. At worst it scales only to the 4-As, at best it scales to the High 4-Cs.

 

[Read_this_post]

Yet no character has contradicted this rule which is used to describe the physics of the verse and not solely the abilities of characters. While characters could, based on the statement perform it, they still have the choice to perform time or space manip. Having one simply grants the ability. But if you wanna disregard information given about the verse simply because it wasnt enforced hard enough then I suppose you can go ahead at least until something else maybe pops up

Two low 2-C feats being outliers because of 5 or more casual feats of creation/destruction/warping of infinite sized realms is obscene (unless the two feats themselves are not low 2-C to begin with of course). Not even mentioning how the creation of an infinite sized realm (a seperate time space) would basically be low 2-C by default unless they were going into an existing time(/space) and creating the contents (or space alone) within it. Never said it is was ap. My point is there is nothing inconsistent about these reality bending gods being low 2-C.

I suppose that depends on the consistency of the high 4-Cs being that level. Although tbh, a lot of the high 4-Cs are scaled to that level with very little reason. There probably should be a revision on that. Though it would at least scale to oni, hermits, vampires and others who do scale if it doesnt just scale to 4-As

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again, this isn't something unique to Touhou. This is how real life work. It's just that Touhou once or twice re-inforced it. It doesn't mean that we should treat Touhou's feats any differently from any other verse. It's the same as the "No FTL" statement from Marisa. It clearly refers to real-life physics and doesn't mean that the verse tops at Relatvistic+ regardless of feats.

Two (Again, at best) feats compared to not only the High 3-A feats, but also all of the non-Low 2-C feats shown. That's a huge jump I'm not willing to do. High 3-A is still more consistent and safer. Also dude, gods in Touhou can be as low as 10-C. It's not even remotely supporting evidences for Low 2-C.

I mean the only 4-A one with a High 3-A feat is Doremy. The rest comes from the High 4-Cs.

 

[Junkoposter]

ima continue to agree with Saikou on this one also Dorememe ovo

 

[Read_this_post]

Despite this, several other verses have their power and stats changed over a simple feat depending on whether the physics of the verse indicate so such as digimon, the elder scrolls etc. Whether or not it comes from real life physics doesnt matter. If information is given about the verses physics and nothing contradicts it, with a couple feats to support it, then there is nothing inconsistent about it. The no ftl statement is literally contradicted, so thats a false equivalence.

Seems like youre only looking at half my comment and acting as if they are their own standalone points. High 3-A to low 2-C is literally just one minor tier jump with the High 3-A feats being casual. Casual feats of infinite power contradicting a higher level of infinity shown makes no sense no matter what way you slice it. Secondly, my point is not ap at all. My point is that low 2-C is not inconsistent in the slightest in a verse littered with abstract entities, a ridiculous supply of universal reality warping and hax along with beings who completely outclass those with said reality warping. Im not saying it as confirmation. My point is that it makes no sense for tier 2 to be a stretch when the verse already does stuff like this.

Thirdly, majority of the feats listed are low 2-C (one even involving messing with the boundaries between seperate space times). What i was saying earlier is that creating an new otherworld or space with infinite size would require you to create an entirely new time space in order to even be separated from the other realms in such a way unless they are either creating a space without time or they are creating a new space where time already exists. Most of these are literally low 2-C. Doremy creating these worlds which involves using the dream world to control reality (literal reality creation on an inifinite scale and backed up by what i just said), miko affecting the corridor which kaguya built using space time along with another low 2-C feat, yukaris boundary manipulation working on a tier 2 axis merging those realms which are two alternative space times.

Im fine with touhou capping at high 3-A and anything above being an outlier. But my point is simply that the reason for this is entirely opinionated and is built on speculation and overly strict double standards. It makes little sense to label these feats are outliers when the entire cast holds back 90% of the time, no anti feats at all to contradict it and again, does all this to the most casual degree.

Im probably just going to leave this low 2-C argument here for now since it is clearly not worth discussing this with you and clearly wont go anywhere at this rate.

 

[Read_this_post]

Anyway. Suika would be upgraded from this id imagine. If so, will all the current high 4-Cs scale? Because a lot of them have little reason to do scale in the first place from what ive seen.

 

[Andytrenom]

Actually, I really am curious on why the Low 2-C is unacceptable if space and time being intertwined in explicitly confirmed for the verse instead of just being assumed off of real life principles

 

[Read_this_post]

It is basically word of god that space and time are intertwined in verse tbh. The lewd reasons above are apparently why.

 

[Junkoposter]

if Prom learns people are trying to get Low 2-C 2hu they're going to talk-no-jutsu us into next week ovo

 

[Read_this_post]

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[Andytrenom]

Shouldn't really matter how high a rating is, if it's more well founded than a lower alternative

 

[Read_this_post]

I personally would lean more towards a possibly low 2-C rating. However i do think the verses power scaling does need revising which the main issue ive seen.