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Touhou Revisions: Stop bullying me, Junko Edition
- Thread starter Saikou_The_Lewd_King
- Start date
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I do have my doubts, but I'm pretty sure there are more High 3-A/Low 2-C feats than there are High 4-C (Utsuho / Yatagarasu and the Suika calc, unless I'm missing something).
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Anyway, if Time and Space are stated to be intertwined, what are all the things contradicting that statement?
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- Thread starter
- #84
I've been telling this like dozen of times already. We have no reasons to push the "Space = Time" idea any further than other verses. This fact being re-affirmed doesn't change that. Also, the fact that no one, and I do mean no one, in Touhou with Space hax has shown time hax due to it is enough contradictions for that statement.
The scaling for High 4-C is fine, but we might want to be a bit stricter with it if we were to do such a huge upgrade.
@­Prom The High 4-C feats are Suika, Yatagarasu and maaaybe Marisa's star splitting spellcard. But Yatagarasu (and Okuu) are kinda above the rest, so they aren't part of the High 4-C scaling.
Honestly the highest I'm willing to go, and that's a big if, is something like "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C". Just to follow Fate.
The scaling for High 4-C is fine, but we might want to be a bit stricter with it if we were to do such a huge upgrade.
@­Prom The High 4-C feats are Suika, Yatagarasu and maaaybe Marisa's star splitting spellcard. But Yatagarasu (and Okuu) are kinda above the rest, so they aren't part of the High 4-C scaling.
Honestly the highest I'm willing to go, and that's a big if, is something like "High 3-A, possibly Low 2-C". Just to follow Fate.
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What are you talking about? Sakuya has shown space hax and time hax due to the rule. You even said it yourself. Simply not showing it is not a contradiction. Them being unable to perform it would be. The fact that certain characters simply stick with spatial abilities by choice does is not contradict a wog statement. Your argument is literally just "it's not shown enough times and is therefore contradicted". I'm not going through this anymore
The scaling really isn't. It basically assumes anybody labelled as a "high tier" to scale to the same level. Most of the profiles explanations are littered with "should be comparable to" with no good explanation. If you wanna scale everyone above cirno tier to high universal, then there should be solid reasoning behind it.
The scaling really isn't. It basically assumes anybody labelled as a "high tier" to scale to the same level. Most of the profiles explanations are littered with "should be comparable to" with no good explanation. If you wanna scale everyone above cirno tier to high universal, then there should be solid reasoning behind it.
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Just asking, but will Reimu's second key be affected by this upgrade?
ShinyMagicalGirl
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High 3-A seems good, OP explained it well. IDK about Low 2-C but if it gets accepted then by all means. Tho I'll be neutral on Low 2-C until someone else says something conclusive.
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Reimu's 2nd key is from PC-98, which doesnt scale to Windows and isnt effected by itUnoriginal Memes said:
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@Read
Logic would dictate that a character never showing such a high level ability through all of the series doesn't have it. Also yes, something can be considered to be contradicted if it fails to be shown in relevent times. You'd be assuming that time manip is something every space user in Touhou can do when it's never been shown outside of Sakuya. An unsupported statement that only re-states real life physics despite the fact that said physics are ignored by both the verse and fiction in general isn't enough to give a powerful ability like time manip to tons of character or to upgrade the verse to Tier 2.
The only real issue are the protagonists. But most characters either roughly scales to other people with feats (Most religious character scales to each other due to being rivals) or scales just from being stated to be really strong. The other option is to assume that certain characters would get subatomized on contact by other characters in anything ressembling a serious fight.
Logic would dictate that a character never showing such a high level ability through all of the series doesn't have it. Also yes, something can be considered to be contradicted if it fails to be shown in relevent times. You'd be assuming that time manip is something every space user in Touhou can do when it's never been shown outside of Sakuya. An unsupported statement that only re-states real life physics despite the fact that said physics are ignored by both the verse and fiction in general isn't enough to give a powerful ability like time manip to tons of character or to upgrade the verse to Tier 2.
The only real issue are the protagonists. But most characters either roughly scales to other people with feats (Most religious character scales to each other due to being rivals) or scales just from being stated to be really strong. The other option is to assume that certain characters would get subatomized on contact by other characters in anything ressembling a serious fight.
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Saikou, buddy. Id normally be inclined to just let this go. But not when you are using lackluster and fallacious logic like this
Logic doesnt dictate it at all. Youre just repeating what you said earlier in the first sentence and just adding that logic dictates it which is not an argument nor refutation. Not showing it in character (which would be technically limited anyway as ill explain later) and being unable to use it are completely different things.
For one, there's the fact that there are different degrees and varieties of space and time manipulation in touhou where a user can be more focused on spatial as opposed to time manipulation, manipulate it in specific different ways or just outright have superior time or spatial manip to another as seen by kaguyas superior time manip and different abilities to sakuya.
If someone bends or reduces the size space for example, taking the physics established into account, they would only be doing the same thing to the time of said space where they are reducing the space time or just bending time and manipulating the size and shape of the temporal dimension on whatever scale without pulling anything fully timehax based. While they are still capable of manipulating time, that doesnt mean they can use time manipulation in the variety and extent someone like sakuya can use when their abilities are solely focused on the spatial side of things.
Zun stated manipulating space allows you to manipulate time. It doesnt mean that manipulating space will guaruntee any form of time manipulation or someone capable of expanding a space infinitely can just use whatever useful time hax they want.
Like seriously. Where are your examples of characters being unable to use time manipulation in an important scenario? Because even if that scenario exists, youre going to also need to prove they would be able to use the specific time based ability going by the verses logic. It would be limited time manipulation based on this. So it wouldnt even be as powerful as you describe
And as ive mentioned before. You are ignoring the fact that many characters both in verse and in general fiction do not use certain abilities in character. Someone simply not using an ability they are stated to have is not a contradiction. It is just the abilities they prefer to use and how their character is portrayed (which again happens many times in fiction and gives characters the abilities anyway)
An unsupported statement that only re-states real life physics despite the fact that said physics are ignored by both the verse and fiction in general isn't enough to give a powerful ability like time manip to tons of character or to upgrade the verse to Tier 2.
You are essentially arguing that the verse simply re states real life physics but get ignored with your only example being the contradicted no ftl statement. There is no evidence of this random generalisation being the case especially over one scenario (and other fictional verses which literally have nothing to do with touhou in this case) and an association fallacy.
While you are making the argument that because a statement throwing back to real life is proven untrue, the verse is just taking stuff from real life and not actually using it unless e╠Âx╠Âc╠Âe╠Âs╠Âs╠Âi╠Âv╠Âe╠Âl╠Ây╠ ╠Âs╠Âh╠Âo╠Âv╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Âo╠Âu╠Âr╠ ╠Âf╠Âa╠Âc╠Âe╠Âs╠ proven. I can do the exact same thing and use examples where physics are taking from real sciences (brane cosmology, string theory etc which you accept) and established in verse and say that the verse takes stuff from real life and applies it unless directly contradicted. It works both ways.
There is no reason to diregard author intent unless the intent itself is outright contradicted which as i have explained, is not.
In shorter terms. The physics are stated by word of god, does not have any anti feats contradicting it, supported by three characters (kaguya and miko literally having space time feats listed in the op itself) with one of the characters being extremely consistent, and the only thing being used to contradict the physics of the verse itself is a case of certain characters not using one ability in character and/or making better use of their spatial abilties than time abilities
And the icing on top of the cake if you wanna talk tier two is that there is still the stuff I brought up earlier that would give the verse tier 2 regardless of this. There are plenty of verses that have like, 1 tier 2 feat amongst the main cast with far lower feats that get low 2-C (adventure time, castlevania etc). Why touhou would be an exception without even an anti tier 2 feat is beyond me.
Logic doesnt dictate it at all. Youre just repeating what you said earlier in the first sentence and just adding that logic dictates it which is not an argument nor refutation. Not showing it in character (which would be technically limited anyway as ill explain later) and being unable to use it are completely different things.
For one, there's the fact that there are different degrees and varieties of space and time manipulation in touhou where a user can be more focused on spatial as opposed to time manipulation, manipulate it in specific different ways or just outright have superior time or spatial manip to another as seen by kaguyas superior time manip and different abilities to sakuya.
If someone bends or reduces the size space for example, taking the physics established into account, they would only be doing the same thing to the time of said space where they are reducing the space time or just bending time and manipulating the size and shape of the temporal dimension on whatever scale without pulling anything fully timehax based. While they are still capable of manipulating time, that doesnt mean they can use time manipulation in the variety and extent someone like sakuya can use when their abilities are solely focused on the spatial side of things.
Zun stated manipulating space allows you to manipulate time. It doesnt mean that manipulating space will guaruntee any form of time manipulation or someone capable of expanding a space infinitely can just use whatever useful time hax they want.
Like seriously. Where are your examples of characters being unable to use time manipulation in an important scenario? Because even if that scenario exists, youre going to also need to prove they would be able to use the specific time based ability going by the verses logic. It would be limited time manipulation based on this. So it wouldnt even be as powerful as you describe
And as ive mentioned before. You are ignoring the fact that many characters both in verse and in general fiction do not use certain abilities in character. Someone simply not using an ability they are stated to have is not a contradiction. It is just the abilities they prefer to use and how their character is portrayed (which again happens many times in fiction and gives characters the abilities anyway)
An unsupported statement that only re-states real life physics despite the fact that said physics are ignored by both the verse and fiction in general isn't enough to give a powerful ability like time manip to tons of character or to upgrade the verse to Tier 2.
You are essentially arguing that the verse simply re states real life physics but get ignored with your only example being the contradicted no ftl statement. There is no evidence of this random generalisation being the case especially over one scenario (and other fictional verses which literally have nothing to do with touhou in this case) and an association fallacy.
While you are making the argument that because a statement throwing back to real life is proven untrue, the verse is just taking stuff from real life and not actually using it unless e╠Âx╠Âc╠Âe╠Âs╠Âs╠Âi╠Âv╠Âe╠Âl╠Ây╠ ╠Âs╠Âh╠Âo╠Âv╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Âo╠Âu╠Âr╠ ╠Âf╠Âa╠Âc╠Âe╠Âs╠ proven. I can do the exact same thing and use examples where physics are taking from real sciences (brane cosmology, string theory etc which you accept) and established in verse and say that the verse takes stuff from real life and applies it unless directly contradicted. It works both ways.
There is no reason to diregard author intent unless the intent itself is outright contradicted which as i have explained, is not.
In shorter terms. The physics are stated by word of god, does not have any anti feats contradicting it, supported by three characters (kaguya and miko literally having space time feats listed in the op itself) with one of the characters being extremely consistent, and the only thing being used to contradict the physics of the verse itself is a case of certain characters not using one ability in character and/or making better use of their spatial abilties than time abilities
And the icing on top of the cake if you wanna talk tier two is that there is still the stuff I brought up earlier that would give the verse tier 2 regardless of this. There are plenty of verses that have like, 1 tier 2 feat amongst the main cast with far lower feats that get low 2-C (adventure time, castlevania etc). Why touhou would be an exception without even an anti tier 2 feat is beyond me.
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The only reason i can see them scaling is if a character is the same race as a character with a feat considered normal on their level, they have fought on par before hand, someone is stated physically comparable or are rivals in strength.
If a character simply fights another while holding back (e.g. marisa needing constant training to keep up with reimu who is likely holding back) or just competitive or closely linked in different ways that isnt indicated through physical means, then that is not much of a reason for them to scale.
Dont forget that holding back infinitely in a fight is something that happens all the time in fiction.
One question i do have though incase possibly low 2-C is given. Do oni scale to hermits? Because if kaguya and hermits have low 2-C feats and someone like suika performs her high 3-A feat, would suika and those who scale be high 3-A (with maybe low 2-C abilities for some)?
If a character simply fights another while holding back (e.g. marisa needing constant training to keep up with reimu who is likely holding back) or just competitive or closely linked in different ways that isnt indicated through physical means, then that is not much of a reason for them to scale.
Dont forget that holding back infinitely in a fight is something that happens all the time in fiction.
One question i do have though incase possibly low 2-C is given. Do oni scale to hermits? Because if kaguya and hermits have low 2-C feats and someone like suika performs her high 3-A feat, would suika and those who scale be high 3-A (with maybe low 2-C abilities for some)?
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Sorry bout that. Im totally fine if you wanna save the space/time stuff for another time and let it be brought up in a later thread so the scaling can be brought up later saiks.
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I do not know how valid the contradiction argument is, but I will say that's the only thing that seems like it could be a reasonable argument
The idea that there's no difference between considering a verse, where wog states space and time to be intertwined, to have an intertwined time space and considering a verse, with no such clarifications, to have an intertwined time space is just...dumb..
The idea that there's no difference between considering a verse, where wog states space and time to be intertwined, to have an intertwined time space and considering a verse, with no such clarifications, to have an intertwined time space is just...dumb..
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@Andytrenom I dont think thats the argument that saikou is going for. But you are right.
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I HOPE it's not what Saikou is going for
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- Thread starter
- #99
Andy, almost ALL verses that remotely follows modern physics have interwined space-time. This statement isn't some big world building statement that talks about the verse's unique cosmology. It's just stating irl physics again. It doesn't change the fact that fiction can ignore it. This is borderline all just an excuse to explain that this one character has space manip.
@Read We never used spell card fights to scale. Or fights in general, really.
You also seem to forget that Spell Cards were only a thing recently in the verse. Anything before EoSD was normal fighting. This means that any long-standing rivalries still holds.
@Read We never used spell card fights to scale. Or fights in general, really.
You also seem to forget that Spell Cards were only a thing recently in the verse. Anything before EoSD was normal fighting. This means that any long-standing rivalries still holds.
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I know all that and havent forgotten. Pc 98 isnt even regarded as cannon here. If someone in current cannon is stated to have a rivalry which involves physical fighting which would go back before spellcards were a thing then yes they would scale (along with some instances of characters not using spellcards).
But if any of the high 4-Cs were to not scale to the likes of suika. Who would you say it would be?
But if any of the high 4-Cs were to not scale to the likes of suika. Who would you say it would be?
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The reason creating infinite space isn't considered low 2-C is because fiction often doesn't portray time and space to be intertwined so we can't be sure if we can apply real life principles to it.
That standard is completely irrelevant to a verse that does have confirmation about space and time being intertwined and yes, if there are blatant contradictions then that can work as an argument against low 2-C, but that doesn't make the argument of "if we consider space-time intertwined for this verse we would have to do so for all other verses like this" any more true because having a real life principle affirmed is obviously a very good reason to make exceptions to a "we don't know if a verse follows this idea so we can't use it" policy
That standard is completely irrelevant to a verse that does have confirmation about space and time being intertwined and yes, if there are blatant contradictions then that can work as an argument against low 2-C, but that doesn't make the argument of "if we consider space-time intertwined for this verse we would have to do so for all other verses like this" any more true because having a real life principle affirmed is obviously a very good reason to make exceptions to a "we don't know if a verse follows this idea so we can't use it" policy
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Regardless, scaling discussions should be kept for the end of the thread, after we decide what we do with this.
The furthest I'm willing to go with this tier is a "possibly Low 2-C"
The furthest I'm willing to go with this tier is a "possibly Low 2-C"
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I second that
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I honestly do think a possibly low 2-C is well fitted. At least for those who scale to kaguya and hermits (not entirely sure if oni would scale there)
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Welp, andy took muh position for now giving me my cue to finally leave. See you in a month (unless on discord or whatever). Ill heartlessly let you two rip at eachothers throats <3
I╠Âm╠ ╠Âm╠Âo╠Âr╠Âe╠ ╠Âe╠Âv╠Âi╠Âl╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ân╠ ╠Âp╠Âr╠Âo╠Âm╠ ╠Âb╠Ât╠Âw╠Â
I╠Âm╠ ╠Âm╠Âo╠Âr╠Âe╠ ╠Âe╠Âv╠Âi╠Âl╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ân╠ ╠Âp╠Âr╠Âo╠Âm╠ ╠Âb╠Ât╠Âw╠Â
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I'm not really taking your position, I just had problems with a certain argument so I tried to address that
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I╠Âd╠ ╠Âr╠Âa╠Ât╠Âh╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Ây╠Âo╠Âu╠ ╠Ât╠Âa╠Âk╠Âe╠ ╠Âm╠Ây╠ ╠Âp╠Âo╠Âs╠Âi╠Ât╠Âi╠Âo╠Ân╠ ╠Ât╠Âh╠Âa╠Ân╠ ╠Âr╠Âu╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Âm╠Ây╠ ╠Âj╠Âo╠Âk╠Âe╠Âs╠ ╠Âa╠Ân╠Âd╠Ây╠Â!╠ ╠Â;╠Â_╠Â;╠Â
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Evil people who let others rip at each other don't get that privilege alas. Tsk tsk tsk
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If I knew Touhou I would be glad to. But right now I can only argue general standards and simple logic
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My knowledge on the verse is fairly wide but limited in quite a few areas at the moment tbh. Which already makes me far more knowledgeable than saikou 
Im sorry but I just needed to do that. Back to the main discussion bois. Chop chop.
Im sorry but I just needed to do that. Back to the main discussion bois. Chop chop.
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Sigh. Alright I'm just gonna concede on possibly Low 2-C. Mostly so I can argue against your scaling because it makes no sense.
The existence of Spell Card Rules does not mean that every single statement of power is now invalid. Plenty of characters refer to the actual strength of the characters.
The existence of Spell Card Rules does not mean that every single statement of power is now invalid. Plenty of characters refer to the actual strength of the characters.
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What are the arguments for Low 2-C?
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@saikou Hold up a second. That's not what I said at all fam. If they refer to actual strength and not being rivals in other means like spellcard battles or competitive in another way, or it is prove able that they fought full power before spellcards then they scale.
@Causality space and time being intertwined fully and many above feats being low 2-C as I debated above
@Causality space and time being intertwined fully and many above feats being low 2-C as I debated above
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IIRC Manipulate Time = Manipulate Space in touhou but not the reverse, Kaguya and Miko's feat is probably High 3-A to Low 2-C but the two other feats are probably just High 3-A.
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You can read through my posts if you have that power. Im pretty sure it was stated as vica versa. But either way creating an entirely new space if intentertwined with time would be low 2-C unless it's under exception I mensioned above (excuse my English's I'm bad at typing on phone)
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@Read This is what our current scaling is based on though. If we used stupid mid-fight banter about characters claiming to be strong due to winning a spell card fight, everyone would be High 4-C or even 3-A by now.
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High 3-A is something I support
Low 2-C, however, Idc about
Low 2-C, however, Idc about
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I'm just gonna lay down those with feats and High 4-C people who scales alongside their reasons:
-Yukari Yakumo: Supporting High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of messing with the Netherworld's boundary. Superior to most Gensokyo people. Comparable to Kasen due to being a Sage as well.
-Suika Ibuki: High 3-A feat of Heaven busting. Also comparable to Kasen due to being a fellow Four Deva.
-Miko: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating Senkai AND absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor. Can fight Kishin, who should be somewhat comparable to onis like Suika due to ruling over lesser onis.
-Kaguya: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating the infinite corridor.
-Komachi: High 3-A(Low 2-C?) feat of extending the Sanzu river to be infinite. Also possibly can fight Tenshi or at least Hermits.
-Doremy: High 3-A feat of re-creating Afterlives and the Land of the Backdoor in the dream world. Also considered extremely strong by most Gensokyo people, so probably scales to the top tiers there.
-Eiki: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of extending the Netherworld to be infinite, alongside her fellow Yama.
And those who scale and their reasons:
-Alice Margatroid: Claims to be superior to Reimu (although it's probably Spell Card banter). Rival to Marisa, rivality that probably extends to before the SCR.
-Amaterasu Oomikami: Top god of the Lunar Capital, making her waaay above Sagume in strength.
-Amitabha: High god of buddhism, so superior to Bishamonten, who should be superior to Byakuren.
-Aya Shameimaru: Lots of statement of being really strong among Gensokyo people, so comparable to most top tiers. These statements are general enough to apply them to outside of SCRs.
-Byakuren Hijiri: Rival to Miko.
-Chang'e: Superior to Sagume due to her stauts in the Lunar Capital.
-Clownpiece: Stated to be superior to Kishins, who should be comparable to Hermits like Miko.
-Dragon God: lol
-Eirin Yagokoro: Former co-ruler of the Lunar Capital, so comparable to Sagume and all that stuff.
-Evil Dragon: Dragons are super OP within Touhou, and implied to be going to the Lunar Capital, so easy scaling to top tiers.
-Flandre Scarlet: Superior to her sister.
-Fujiwara no Mokou: Gores Kaguya daily. Survives lethal attacks from Reimu.
-Giant Catfish: Scales to Marisa and Reimu via taking their form and powers.
-Goliath Doll: Stronger than Alice.
-Hasshaku-sama: Used to empower Ichirin.
-Hatate Himekaidou: Rival to Aya.
-Hecatia Lapislazuli: lol
-Hong Meilling: I know she doesn't scale yet but she probably should, since she served as a guard to Remilia. She should at least not be infinitely weaker than her.
-Houyi: Lunarian God, so comparable to Sagume.
-Ichirin Kumoi: Rival to Futo.
-Iku Nagae: Eh, not sure on that one. The profile says comparable to Tenshi but I'm not sure where that's from.
-Iwanagahime: Kinda high ranking god, so comparable to Kanako.
-Junko: Invaded the Lunar Capital.
-Kanako Yasaka: Superior to Sanae due to being her goddess. Also despite not being a direct rival she should still be able to rival the might of other religious leaders like Miko.
-Kasen Ibaraki: Comparable to Suika as a fellow Diva. Comparable to Miko due to being a fellow hermit and possesses her own Senkai.
-Keine Kamishirasawa: Also not sure about her. Although due to being the protector of the village, it'd make sense for her to not be infinitely weaker than strong youkai.
-Konohana-Sakuyahime: Same was Iwanagahime.
-Kosuzu Motoori: The youkai key is really damn strong even among other youkai, so it should at least be comparable to them. Also was only defeated through its weakness by Mamizou and iirc knocked out Marisa.
-Lord Tenma: Superior to Aya.
-Lord Tsukuyomi: Ruler of the Lunar Capital, so far above Sagume.
-Mamizou Futatsuiwa: Can turno into Miko, Reimu and Marisa. Also she was summoned for help by Byakuren, so she shouldn't be, y'know, infinitvely weaker than her.
-Marisa Kirisame: Considered a rival to Reimu and likely fought the same enemies before the SCR. Also almost killed Seiga.
-Mizue no Uranoshimako: Blah blah Lunarian God, superior to Sagume, blah blah blah
-Mononobe no Futo: High-ranking servant of Miko. Also an Hermit herself, so she should be able to fight Kishin, comparable to the likes of Suika.
-Nue Houjuu: Really strong youkai so not infinitely weaker than others.
-Occult Balls: Broke through the Hakurei barrier, something most Gensokyan can't do.
-Okina Matara: Scales to Yukari & Kasen as a fellow sage.
-Patchouli Knowledge: Somewhat rival or even superior to Marisa. Also probably not too much weaker than Remilia.
-Ran Yakumo: Top youkai, so not far behind other high tier characters.
-Reimu Hakurei: Consistantly considered one of the strongest person in Gensokyo and likely fought many strong youkai before the SCR. Also rival to Sanae.
-Reisen Udongein Inaba: Also not sure. While a high ranking servant of Kaguya she's still really just a moon rabbit. She is also an incident solver like Reimu & Marisa, but I doubt it's enough.
-Remilia Scarlet: Truly one of the strongest youkai. Beat the shit out of everyone before the SCR and required to be ganged up on.
-Sagume Kishin: Superior to Doremy, as she commands her and the latter could only indirectly get revenge on her. Also should be superior to Gensokyo gods like Kanako.
-Saigyou Ayakashi: Trees are naturally indestructable in every video game.
-Sakuya Izayoi: High ranking servant of Remilia and implied to have fought her (Although it's highly speculatory). Also fellow incident solver, but it's not much.
-Sanae Kochiya: Rival to Reimu. Can also channel the power of her goddesses.
-Seija Kijin: Not really sure. Sure she made a mess, but it was through spell card rules and she was never implied to be really strong.
-Shinmyoumaru Sukuna: She's got an item that's OP even by Oni standards, so it should be above them.
-Shou Toramaru: Avatar of Bishamonten and high-ranking servant of Byakuren.
-Suiki: A kishin who rules over several lesser onis, so probably comparable to Suika due to this.
-Sumireko Usami: Can use the Occult Balls.
-Suwako Moriya: Comparable to Kanako and fought her in the past.
-Tenryu: Lunarian God, so comparable to Sagume.
-Tenshi Hinanawi: Celestials are superior to Hermits. They're also just really OP in general.
-Utsuho Reiuji: Has Yatagarasu's powers.
-Watatsuki no Toyohime: Comparable to Junko and superior to Sagume, as a high ranking Lunarian and commander of the defense corp.
-Watatsuki no Yorihime: Comparable to Junko and superior to Sagume, as a high ranking Lunarian and commander of the defense corp.
-Yatagarasu: Lunarian God, or at the least the avatar of one, so should be superior to Kanako.
-Youki Konpaku: Superior to Youmu.
-Youmu Konpaku: She...doesn't have much honestly. Other than scaling to incident solvers and being a high-ranking servant of Yuyuko.
-Yukari Yakumo: Bottom tier trash weaker than Cirno.
-Yuugi Hoshiguma: Comparable to Suika and Kasen, as a Diva.
-Yuuka Kazami: Just really, really strong.
-Yuyuko Saigyouji: Given how she's the ruler of one part of the afterlife, she should at the very least be comparable to stuff like Onis and Kishins.
There are a few characters with weak reasonings, yes, but don't go act like the entire scaling system is based on Spell Card fights or something.
-Yukari Yakumo: Supporting High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of messing with the Netherworld's boundary. Superior to most Gensokyo people. Comparable to Kasen due to being a Sage as well.
-Suika Ibuki: High 3-A feat of Heaven busting. Also comparable to Kasen due to being a fellow Four Deva.
-Miko: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating Senkai AND absorbing Kaguya's infinite corridor. Can fight Kishin, who should be somewhat comparable to onis like Suika due to ruling over lesser onis.
-Kaguya: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of creating the infinite corridor.
-Komachi: High 3-A(Low 2-C?) feat of extending the Sanzu river to be infinite. Also possibly can fight Tenshi or at least Hermits.
-Doremy: High 3-A feat of re-creating Afterlives and the Land of the Backdoor in the dream world. Also considered extremely strong by most Gensokyo people, so probably scales to the top tiers there.
-Eiki: High 3-A/Low 2-C feat of extending the Netherworld to be infinite, alongside her fellow Yama.
And those who scale and their reasons:
-Alice Margatroid: Claims to be superior to Reimu (although it's probably Spell Card banter). Rival to Marisa, rivality that probably extends to before the SCR.
-Amaterasu Oomikami: Top god of the Lunar Capital, making her waaay above Sagume in strength.
-Amitabha: High god of buddhism, so superior to Bishamonten, who should be superior to Byakuren.
-Aya Shameimaru: Lots of statement of being really strong among Gensokyo people, so comparable to most top tiers. These statements are general enough to apply them to outside of SCRs.
-Byakuren Hijiri: Rival to Miko.
-Chang'e: Superior to Sagume due to her stauts in the Lunar Capital.
-Clownpiece: Stated to be superior to Kishins, who should be comparable to Hermits like Miko.
-Dragon God: lol
-Eirin Yagokoro: Former co-ruler of the Lunar Capital, so comparable to Sagume and all that stuff.
-Evil Dragon: Dragons are super OP within Touhou, and implied to be going to the Lunar Capital, so easy scaling to top tiers.
-Flandre Scarlet: Superior to her sister.
-Fujiwara no Mokou: Gores Kaguya daily. Survives lethal attacks from Reimu.
-Giant Catfish: Scales to Marisa and Reimu via taking their form and powers.
-Goliath Doll: Stronger than Alice.
-Hasshaku-sama: Used to empower Ichirin.
-Hatate Himekaidou: Rival to Aya.
-Hecatia Lapislazuli: lol
-Hong Meilling: I know she doesn't scale yet but she probably should, since she served as a guard to Remilia. She should at least not be infinitely weaker than her.
-Houyi: Lunarian God, so comparable to Sagume.
-Ichirin Kumoi: Rival to Futo.
-Iku Nagae: Eh, not sure on that one. The profile says comparable to Tenshi but I'm not sure where that's from.
-Iwanagahime: Kinda high ranking god, so comparable to Kanako.
-Junko: Invaded the Lunar Capital.
-Kanako Yasaka: Superior to Sanae due to being her goddess. Also despite not being a direct rival she should still be able to rival the might of other religious leaders like Miko.
-Kasen Ibaraki: Comparable to Suika as a fellow Diva. Comparable to Miko due to being a fellow hermit and possesses her own Senkai.
-Keine Kamishirasawa: Also not sure about her. Although due to being the protector of the village, it'd make sense for her to not be infinitely weaker than strong youkai.
-Konohana-Sakuyahime: Same was Iwanagahime.
-Kosuzu Motoori: The youkai key is really damn strong even among other youkai, so it should at least be comparable to them. Also was only defeated through its weakness by Mamizou and iirc knocked out Marisa.
-Lord Tenma: Superior to Aya.
-Lord Tsukuyomi: Ruler of the Lunar Capital, so far above Sagume.
-Mamizou Futatsuiwa: Can turno into Miko, Reimu and Marisa. Also she was summoned for help by Byakuren, so she shouldn't be, y'know, infinitvely weaker than her.
-Marisa Kirisame: Considered a rival to Reimu and likely fought the same enemies before the SCR. Also almost killed Seiga.
-Mizue no Uranoshimako: Blah blah Lunarian God, superior to Sagume, blah blah blah
-Mononobe no Futo: High-ranking servant of Miko. Also an Hermit herself, so she should be able to fight Kishin, comparable to the likes of Suika.
-Nue Houjuu: Really strong youkai so not infinitely weaker than others.
-Occult Balls: Broke through the Hakurei barrier, something most Gensokyan can't do.
-Okina Matara: Scales to Yukari & Kasen as a fellow sage.
-Patchouli Knowledge: Somewhat rival or even superior to Marisa. Also probably not too much weaker than Remilia.
-Ran Yakumo: Top youkai, so not far behind other high tier characters.
-Reimu Hakurei: Consistantly considered one of the strongest person in Gensokyo and likely fought many strong youkai before the SCR. Also rival to Sanae.
-Reisen Udongein Inaba: Also not sure. While a high ranking servant of Kaguya she's still really just a moon rabbit. She is also an incident solver like Reimu & Marisa, but I doubt it's enough.
-Remilia Scarlet: Truly one of the strongest youkai. Beat the shit out of everyone before the SCR and required to be ganged up on.
-Sagume Kishin: Superior to Doremy, as she commands her and the latter could only indirectly get revenge on her. Also should be superior to Gensokyo gods like Kanako.
-Saigyou Ayakashi: Trees are naturally indestructable in every video game.
-Sakuya Izayoi: High ranking servant of Remilia and implied to have fought her (Although it's highly speculatory). Also fellow incident solver, but it's not much.
-Sanae Kochiya: Rival to Reimu. Can also channel the power of her goddesses.
-Seija Kijin: Not really sure. Sure she made a mess, but it was through spell card rules and she was never implied to be really strong.
-Shinmyoumaru Sukuna: She's got an item that's OP even by Oni standards, so it should be above them.
-Shou Toramaru: Avatar of Bishamonten and high-ranking servant of Byakuren.
-Suiki: A kishin who rules over several lesser onis, so probably comparable to Suika due to this.
-Sumireko Usami: Can use the Occult Balls.
-Suwako Moriya: Comparable to Kanako and fought her in the past.
-Tenryu: Lunarian God, so comparable to Sagume.
-Tenshi Hinanawi: Celestials are superior to Hermits. They're also just really OP in general.
-Utsuho Reiuji: Has Yatagarasu's powers.
-Watatsuki no Toyohime: Comparable to Junko and superior to Sagume, as a high ranking Lunarian and commander of the defense corp.
-Watatsuki no Yorihime: Comparable to Junko and superior to Sagume, as a high ranking Lunarian and commander of the defense corp.
-Yatagarasu: Lunarian God, or at the least the avatar of one, so should be superior to Kanako.
-Youki Konpaku: Superior to Youmu.
-Youmu Konpaku: She...doesn't have much honestly. Other than scaling to incident solvers and being a high-ranking servant of Yuyuko.
-Yukari Yakumo: Bottom tier trash weaker than Cirno.
-Yuugi Hoshiguma: Comparable to Suika and Kasen, as a Diva.
-Yuuka Kazami: Just really, really strong.
-Yuyuko Saigyouji: Given how she's the ruler of one part of the afterlife, she should at the very least be comparable to stuff like Onis and Kishins.
There are a few characters with weak reasonings, yes, but don't go act like the entire scaling system is based on Spell Card fights or something.
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