Touhou PC-98 Stats Revision

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

So there has been several attempts to revise the stats of PC-98 Touhou Project. However most have died. So I hope this will be the end of it, because our current stats are messy and inconsistent. This deal nearly solely with AP though. Our MFTL+ rating seems fine as is.

Okay the first feat we have is Reimu's 5-B to 4-B Earth bust attack. While the calc is fine and dandy, it doesn't seem to apply to regular AP at all. It was shown to be a wish grating object, not a regular weapon. So Reimu using it in battle shouldn't scale to what has shown to be its maximum potential. Especially as it makes little sense for Reimu to have attack strength comparable to it, when it has always been treated as a highly powerful and sought object. It is also likely that both endings are non-canon (Reimu pops up saying "Just kidding" after each of them, and due to being a Bad End, doesn't tie up to the future games). It also makes little sense to scale Yuuka to them via having the "strongest power" or something.

Secondly, Yumemi's 5-B feat was agreed to not apply to her regular AP. The scene doesn't give us any clues as to how she did the feat, and it is heavily implied to have used prep, due to the character herself being a scientist that uses technology to basically do everything.

As such, most relevant characters should be scaled to Shinki. While the idea was rejected before, several new quotes from endings seems to heavily hints that the protagonists are at least comparable to Shinki. Case in points:

Shinki often speaks in fear and respect of the girls who defeated her. "Don't come here ever again, okay?" "You're so strong!"

Some of the girls also treats Shinki as below themselves. "If someone that weak could become a god, maybe I could too?" "I love picking on the weak~ (Refering to Shinki)"

Adding that to the fact that each protagonist can defeat Shinki in a one-on-one fight hard enough to make her cry, there is little to NO reasons why they shouln't scale to her.

So with this proposition, the Yin-Yang and Yumemi feat would be dumped, and will be replaced by scaling to Shinki.

Reimu (PC-98), Marisa (PC-98), Yuuka (PC-98) and Mima should all scale directly to Shinki. All others characters should scale via fighting against Reimu and Marisa. By proxy, the "possibly" in Shinki's durability should be removed.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Any changes for Yumeko here?

Agreed on all notes, satisfied with the scaling, unsure about Universal scaling because otherwise... you know who's gonna be happy to toss new pointless matchups- oh wait he's still banned.

 

[Promestein]

Seems pretty fine to me, though I'm not entirely sure about the universal scaling.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Yumeko falls under the long list of people who fights Reimu, yes.

Andy's gone yeah, but even then that shouldn't matter for scaling.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Well there's also another person or two who would be oh so happy to see this but eh.

Fair enough. But yeah, keeping it possibly maybe.

 

[Karl_Kraft]

So all of these get the "Solar System Level to Universe+ Level" statistic?

 

[Antvasima]

Where in the above post is universal scaling mentioned?

 

[Luvimi]

About Yumeko, i noticed that the page is clearly Lacking in the informations about her powers

In her fight:

She summon swords Gilgamesh-style, Become intangible and the arrives via teleportation

 

[DontTalk]

Where in the above post is universal scaling mentioned?

I still stay with not contributing to Touhou discussions, but to answer your question: They want to scale basically every character in the game to Shinki and hence give them a "Solar System level to Universe level+" rating.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Isn't Makai completely undefined in size? In addition, I recall it being said to simulate the feeling of outer space (being very empty and imposing) and it also has a distinct end, so I don't see why it would be Universe level+ in the first place.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems to be a valid point.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Infinite world sort of deal. Defined in game and you guys should check again. People are very cautious on scaling it to that...

Edit

þäíÚÖÉÒü«Õ║âÒüòÒéƵîüÒüñÚ¡öþòîÒü«ÒÇüÒü╗ÒéôÒü«õ©ÇÞºÆÒüºÒüÖ ÒüØÒüôÒü½ÞüûÒüîÕ░üÕì░ÒüòÒéîÒüªÒüäÒéïÒü«ÒüºÒüÖ

A corner of the infinite area of Makai. That's where Hijiri was sealed away.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I definitely wouldn't scale it to that. Since Makai has an end, infinite seems more hyperbolic, here.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that also a statement by Minamitsu Murasa, who was planning on going to Hokkai by travelling through Makai? How would she even get there if Makai was actually infinite?

 

[DontTalk]

@Azathoth: More importantly that statement and Shinki are from different canons (as discussed here), though of course nobody feels like mentioning that. (For those who want to read some of the past threads, where some of the things on this thread were already discussed, may see here and here btw.)

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It's the same was as having portals in a universe though. The 'end' could've been just a destination that leads elsewhere.

We also argued already that Alice recognizing Reimu and Marisa in PCB couldn't be possible without her knowing the cast beforehand and not to mention Zun already said in an interview that the PC-98 is not non-canon....

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It's the same was as having portals in a universe though. The 'end' could've been just a destination that leads elsewhere.

There was nowhere else to go after Shinki. Even if there is only a portal afterwards, the realm still has an end, which means it is finite in size.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You mean after you defeated Shinki who stopped trying to escape you?... What would be the point of moving afterwards now that shes defeated? Did you want a game that spans infinitely? Or am I msireading something? Either way gtg.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No, I mean as in she canonically mentions there is nowhere left to go after this. There are no more areas. She clarifies "there is no 'next'". She says this to...Marisa, I think? I can't remember.

 

[Antvasima]

We obviously cannot scale between different canons.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'll check the dialogue later after midterm. Im more than sure it's spmething like. Acrually screw that. Im on phone rn and I just checked https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Mystic_Square/Story/Marisa's_Scenario

What Shinki clarifies is theres no next boss. Shes the final boss. Shes the god of Makai and theres nothing else after her. Simple as that. Marisa was looking for an enemy not another stage or place.

Once again I repeat... There is nothing saying that Pc-98 is non-canon anymore. They're still part of the same game series. It's not as if this is MP100 and OPM all over again.

Especially with the issue of Alice recognizing Reimu and Marisa before meeting anyone else.

 

[Luvimi]

Zun said: "if you meet contradictions in the lore, refer to the most recent games"

and not "PC98 is retcon"

They stopped after Shinki because the incident was solved and she accepted to prevent her residents to visit Gensokyo.

each time we see makai, there are new places in TH 1, 5 and 12. So it means that we don't see it all in Mystic square, when you travel from Quebec to New York, you travel throug earth, but you don't see it all.

Also, Th 12 is the most recent, so the infinite aera is what we must refer to.

 

[DontTalk]

Zun said: "if you meet contradictions in the lore, refer to the most recent games"

and not "PC98 is retcon"

I generally have no comment regarding the PC-98 games. Please ignore them just as one can ignore derivative works.
	~ Zu​

As said this discussion happened before and there is no new direct statement of ZUN that states the PC-98 is canon, only that parts of the setting didn't change. As long as that is the case I don't consider powerscaling or fact exchange between the two as legitimate.

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk is one of the most intelligent people in the wiki. If he thinks that it is inaccurate to powerscale between the two games, he is most likely correct.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

There's an interview lately that questioned the canonicity of PC-98.... Give me time to find and link it.

Intelligent people can make mistakes though.

And it it doesn't help

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Canon#Canonicity_of_Windows_and_PC-98

There is still nothing that totally invalidates the canonicity of the two sides and I would love to read through those threads right now but now is not a good time. But once more the references to Makai and Alice knowing Reimu is certainly not something to ignore.

In fact in those entire page there are numerous references to Pc-98 that connects them together. Genji living in the shrine, Yuuka also recognizing Marisa, Reimu recognizing Yuuka and claiming that she defeated her before.

There are far too many feats and events to overlook with a simple hand wave just because Zun hasn't said a word and it's certainly not helped by Zun being ambigious on it yet from the side of things... He seems to be leaning on its canonicity.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Nvm found it. That quote's pretty contradictory with the numerous times he talked about PC-98 before and after 2013. Not the first time he did it anyway...

http://pastebin.com/Kiatum4a

Further proofing

 

[Luvimi]

yea, so he said twice that there is no retcon in this interview, even if the secon one is doubtfull by the word of the translator

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think DontTalk?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'll say it one more time. Zun has said contrasting statements before. And in this case, his statement about pc-98 being non-canon is the likelier one considering these all. Theres simply far too many connections.

 

[Antvasima]

So you agree with DontTalk now?

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

? No. I said that the statement that Donttalk is using is likely a contradiction and is the less believable one with everything else. There's far too many feats that prove PC-98 and Windows are connected. Such as interactions with Yuuka and Alice with the main characters.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

What do the rest of the staff think?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

Depends. Scaling from Shinki might be alright depending on how lenient we get, but I'm also in doubt of the legitimacy of Shinki's current tier, anyway (especially the high end).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Perhaps Shinki's statistics should be revised then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Probably, though there would need to be discussions on that, too.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Will continue tomorrow, but I heard OBD nerfed her from Solar System to Universe, into Galaxy because of the stelllar formation of her stage. Then again an infinite realm is something not to be taken lightly and it's not as if we don't have a Universal Touhou character, although then again that's questionable too.

Now I wonder though since every Touhou game lately spells buffs for Touhou, if we should wait for the upcoming game before making any major changes?

 

[Antvasima]

I highlighted the thread for further input.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Thanks Ant

 

[Antvasima]

No problem, but nobody seems interested as of yet.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

It'll take time. The canonicity of Touhou is hard to well summarize after all so I'm sure people are wary. Otherwise we'd have to use touhou fanon is canon which is just silly. But yeah let's just wait.