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About Touhou Project Canon

Saikou_The_Lewd_King

The King of all Things Lewd
VS Battles
Retired
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5,717
I feel the Canon section of the Touhou page should be re-worked a bit, since it has some misleading and some downright false statements.

First of all, everything not directed by ZUN isn't canon, or even official, period. All the fanimes, fangames, or fanwork, are just that: Fanon, and should be treated as such, like it is for all the rest of the verses. Even if Zun DID state the fan stuff is semi-canon (Which he hasn't), it would most likely works like the Extended Cthulhu Mythos.

Secondly, PC-98.

This wiki as a whole seems to treat PC-98 as outright non-canon, and the Verse page seems to treat it as "Ambguiously canon". I personally feel that PC-98 should be considered a Secondary Canon that gets overwritten by the most recent games if inconsistency happens.

Reasons are: Zun did quite some statements about PC-98, yet only 2 of them ever hinted at it being non-canon. One being about EoSD being a clean new start, and one about how we should ignore PC-98. However, both of those were made incredibely early in the new Touhou generation, and many much recent statements and proof shows the opposite.

Zun have repeadtly stated that the PC-98 setting still exists, but just doesn't get to be shown on-screen. Not only that but some characters, places or events are directly mentioned in-games, such as the Return of Alice an Yuuka (Both of them mentions previous encounter with Reimu and Marisa), Byakuren's Spell Card mentions Shinki existing in Makai. Oh, and Makai itself existing.

He also stated that while inconsistency between the ol' games and the new ones happens, Newer stuff takes precedence over old stuff.

So, in short. Any mentions of Fanon should be removed from the Verse page, and PC-98 be bumped to Secondary Canon.

I don't know if this means we should scales the old characters (Moon to Solar System) to the new ones (City to Country), I think it should be discussed further.

Also, small stuff, but I think the Verse page could be renamed "Touhou Project", since it is its full name and stuff.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Also, small stuff, but I think the Verse page could be renamed "Touhou Project", since it is its full name and stuff.
I agree on this.

And I agree with the rest. I don't know why fanon stuff was ever mentioned. And yeah, there should be a discussion on the secondary canon stuff tiering stuff...

But, Alice and Yuuka meeting Reimu before they appear in the games isn't really proof for PC-98 being canon in some form. Gensokyo is small and Reimu is a well-known figure there. It makes sense that youkai as powerful as Alice and Yuuka would have met her before.
 
Yes, and they are supervised by Zun.

I'm talking about fan-made mangas and such.

@Prom Well true, but it's pretty much accepted that it is a reference to PC-98 (And Reimu knowing such peeps beforehand very rarely happens, only being Yukari, Yuuka and Alice. The former being mostly due to the Hakurei Barrier and the latter being said PC-98 reference.)
 
"a Secondary Canon that gets overwritten by the most recent games if inconsistency happens."

That's always how I've seen it, so yeah, that makes sense. ZUN has been almost as vague about Touhou canon as Miyamoto has with Mario canon (even if Mario canon really isn't a thing) :/
 
@Kyle Uh?

All games and mangas and stuff (That are canon at least) are clearly related to each others, you can't exactly separes them like that.

The only 2 possible incarnations are Windows and PC-98, which is what we are trying to discuss here.
 
If we do accept it and use merged stats, then things will get even harder to scale, which would be impressive, since Touhou scaling is already hell on earth.
 
Well, personally, if merge happen, I'd see it this way:

Reimu, Marisa, Alice, Yuuka, Yukari, Suika and Yuugi (And maybe some others I missed) scales to Yumemi's Moon level feats.

The Watatsukis, the Dragon God and Junko (And Hecatia) scales to Reimu's Ying Yang bomb, due to being much superior to anything in Gensokyo.
 
Yes, that'd probably be accurate if things did get accepted.
 
Although the MFTL+ thing would be a b*tch to deal with. Mostly cuz most Speed feats in Modern Touhou are via Spell Cards (Which should be casual), but at the same time it is a single feat so it may be pushed as an outlier.
 
Oh, since this thread already exists, I guess now would be a good time to propose that we should also add to the verse page the rules for scaling in Touhou, since they get rather confusing for some, such as myself.
 
Eh, probably.

Just pointing out that Spell Card rules means 99% of scaling doesn't work (But it doesn't exist in PC-98). However, scaling feats from spell cards against those who tanks it seems okay.
 
Just a thing I noticed, but in the PC-98 era, it says the Ying Yang Orbs worked via absorbing the User's energy, and then releasing it. Since "releasing" is what happens in the Bad End, wouldn't that mean said explosion used up Reimu's energy, not the Orb's?
 
I agree with what Saikou said in the OP especially the secondary canon stuff. ZUN himself said that they are set in the same world and Yuuka, Alice, Marisa and Reimu are the same person.

EOSD "ÒüèÒü¥Òüæ.txt" file that says, "Chronologically this title is not too far from the previous title, thus her age stays the same as before". Since the previous title in question would be Mystic Square, the last game in which PC-98 Reimu appeared in, and Embodiment of Scarlet Devil is the first game in which Windows Reimu appears. Also Reimu's hidden quote in EOSD which said "It's been a while since my last job". Reimu's Mystic Square = Reimu's from EOSD and Reimu's Mystic Square = Reimu's from all previous PC-98 settings.

Not to mention other ZUN's canon materials like CoLA chapter 22 shows Marisa progression of using star magic as a "child" followed by her profile in Lotus Land Asia and Phantasmagoria of Dim Dream. Reimu's comment when she met Yuuka at POFV indicating that she already defeated Yuuka back then at Lotus Land Story supported by Akyuu's statements in PMiSS and Yuuka's comment towards Marisa where she has grown up a bit since Marisa's officially known as a child on PC-98.
 
Reimu, Marisa, Yuuka and casual Alice are retconned! They are weaker compared to PC-98. Grimoire Alice the only one who will keep MFTL+ combat speed.
 
Why would they be retconned? Zun specifically said they were the same.

The power difference could be explained either by boosting them (and a good portion of the verse) or by putting them as outlier.
 
ZUN said that contradictions are solved by siding with new games. And Reimu can't match Yorihime while her PC-98 counterpart fought no serious Shinki...Who created infinite Makai...
 
We don't scale Shinki to Reimu apparently. And Yorihime is pretty featless apart from scaling to Junko
 
Shinki is one god.

Yorihime can channel the power of 8 million gods.

Followed by ZUN's logic where little sisters are stronger and more broken (like Flandre, Koishi). Hue.
 
Kanako is a god and she's Low 6-B.

Not every god is going to be anywhere near Shinki's power, if any.

I'm not sure if we can scale anyone to Shinki anyways.
 
Eh, scaling any gods to Shinki (Or anyone really) is iffy. She would probably stay at the top all lonely
 
Well tbh Low 6-B, alongside 7-B and High 6-A are all casuals and shouldn't be used to disprove higher feats
 
Yamatohime said:
Grimoire Alice could be probably scaled to Shinki as EXTRA with her Grimoire... Though, she didn't use it...
Yeah, too vague and too little information. Yuuka took that so-called ultimate magic too from Alice in one of her Mystic Square ending.
 
Alice still has her Grimoire though Yuuka didn't get it. But considering Reimu's comment... Alice was more like monkey with Death Star. =_=
 
Still, statement of the book being strong isn't enough at all to scale. Not only that but that would likely be a massive outlier anyway
 
The book is still with her. So at least speed wise Alice is still Alice. That's why I prefer to keep them separated.
 
Why do you think the book has anything to do with speed? She scales to any speed feats without the book. Really, the grimoire is featless
 
Because she still has it and Grimoire Alice wasnt retconned.

After all Lolice bragged that Grimoire cast spells full auto.
 
And...? Everything she could have scaled to in PC-98 are scalable without the grimoire. It's featless
 
Her movement speed was somewhat similar to that of the Playable characters, so she probably posses such speed too. If it isn't considered an outlier that is.
 
Yamatohime said:
ZUN said that contradictions are solved by siding with new games. And Reimu can't match Yorihime while her PC-98 counterpart fought no serious Shinki...Who created infinite Makai...
Uh... But Reimu clearly match Yorihime blow by blow, even pretty much pushed Yorihime to the shore with contamination. And...still hasn't used Fantasy Heaven yet :) (since it's still Spell Card Battle)
 
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