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My oh my. This is hard to comprehend.
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Touhou General Revisions (Tier 2 Removal, Hax Revisions)
- Thread starter Jinsye
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Only because the others weren't THIS complicated.
Jibz
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To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand this 2HU thread. The cosmological knowledge is extremely indepth, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also the many other topics at hand, which is deftly woven into this crt with knowledge of brane cosmology draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The viewers who understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these criticisms, to realise that they're not just important- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dont understand this thread truly ARE idiots (i dont believe this)- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the knowledge of brane cosmologies which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Jin's genius wit unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools.. how I pity them.
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HahahahTo be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand this 2HU thread. The cosmological knowledge is extremely indepth, and without a solid grasp of theoretical physics most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also the many other topics at hand, which is deftly woven into this crt with knowledge of brane cosmology draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The viewers who understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these criticisms, to realise that they're not just important- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dont understand this thread truly ARE idiots (i dont believe this)- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the knowledge of brane cosmologies which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Jin's genius wit unfolds itself on their computer screens. What fools.. how I pity them.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Hang on now. My point wasn't "youkai are born from fear and need to scare people so they have a fear aura". You brought up the idea that "trembling" wasn't being used to represent fear, more like something like nervousness or excitement. My point is that, since youkai are inherently tied to fear, it contextually makes more sense for the text to be talking about "trembling in fear" when youkai are brought up, so the alternate meanings of tremble are less likely to apply. Also, if someone can track down the raws, that would help immensely. This is just a matter of determining context, you're really extrapolating a lot from a simple explanation.
As for fearhax consistency, well, there's that one scene. There's also Mamizou being stated to "fill the air with an intimidating aura", and Remilia wondering why Mokou isn't passively bowing down before her in fear (admittedly a little sus since Remilia likes to boast but it's there), so we have at least 3 instances of youkai supposedly being able to induce fear or at least passively provoke some kind of emotional response. So these should preferably be added to the justifications, and I'll keep an eye out for further justifications.
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Also I am working on the response to the cosmology stuff but it is late and I probably won't finish it tonight. However, let me posit that all high tiers would scale to low 1-C. Yukari's boundary manipulation can undermine all of reality. To undermine something is to destroy it over time, so this is an over time destruction feat. Thankfully, because this is an infinitely large higher-dimensional structure, we can see that time frames mean **** all. In addition, boundary manipulation was stated to have power comparable to that of the gods - the same gods who are being upgraded to low 1-C in the first place.
From there, looking at this scan we can see that anyone besides Yukari who uses boundary manipulation must resist the pressure it exerts (ie; possess enough durability to survive the potency of a low 1-C power). This is notable due to Reimu, Satori, and Nue all using this ability without issue. Thus, their durability scales to this extent. From there we have many, many means of scaling the rest of the cast. Suika fought Yukari all the time in the past, so she scales. Kasen scales via overpowering Reimu, while Koishi scales due to Kasen considering her ridiculously strong (and Kokoro scales to Koishi due to being rivals). Marisa scales via fighting on par with Reimu, and hermits like Seiga and Miko downscale due to Seiga surviving attempted murder from Marisa. This also means we can scale the Myouren Temple crew as they're considered rivals to Miko and company... you get where this is going, right? Every high tier in the verse has reason to scale off these 4 characters, one way or another.
You could even go so far as to argue that Reimu, Satori, and Nue have their AP scale directly, since the statements about boundary manip's power are made in general terms; Boundary manipulation by itself can undermine reality and rival the gods, this level of power is not specific to Yukari.
And finally we have Okina, who empowered Sumireko such that she could fight evenly with Junko and Hecatia, who would both be low 1-C under the original proposal. The scaling here isn't hard to see, though it's important to note that these were dream versions of the characters out to kill Sumireko, so they wouldn't hold back.
So in total we have 5 low 1-C feats: Yukari affecting all of reality/scaling to gods, Reimu, Satori, and Nue scaling their durability to this level, and Okina giving Sumireko enough energy to fight low 1-C characters on even terms. That's quite consistent, so we can't call low 1-C an outlier (especially since their lower feats are absurdly casual). Thus, every high tier should scale to this.
Good night yall, wish I could say I could sleep but I need to study quantum mechanics now I guess, wish I had more time to do this beforehand.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 4,100
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... Ooh. I smell the chance for Touhou to finally be able to fight SMT on some level.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 4,100
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Hip hip hooary! I just want the verse that started in making me like all of this weeb shit (touhou) fight the verse that made me realize that I enjoy the crap out of JRPGs (SMT), so happy days.... back to CRT, tho.
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Vietthai96
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Shin Megami Tensei
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I see.
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The first one to have an actual chance to do it will be monkey.
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Who?
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Yeah no. No one among the non-God Tiers should scale to Low 1-C.
-I thought we went over this years ago, but Yukari's statement is not a feat. The text simply says she can undermine reality. Not ALL of existence. It's saying her power is OP because she can manipulate a basic building block of reality. And that without this building block of reality, everything would be one. And by manipulating said building block you can undermine reality. But nowhere does it says that she can manipulate all of reality at once. In fact Yukari being able to just, casually destroy all of existence if she wanted to is unsupported anywhere, and she is never considered this harsh of a threat by anyone outside of Gensokyo.
-The "pressure" scan is bunk. Yukari's boundary manip isn't Low 1-C in potency, only hax. There is no reason to assume you need Low 1-C durability to be able to use it. Besides, it clearly states that you don't need to be able to handle it if you're a weird youkai like Yukari. So really, anyone below Yukari in power wouldn't need to be able to brute force through using it either. So no, this doesn't scale to anything.
-I don't even know why Sumireko fighting Junko and Hecatia is considered even remotely valid. Violet Detector is still a Spell Card fight. And we know Junko and Hecatia are far, far more powerful than anyone in Gensokyo. Saying Okina granting Sumireko "some" of her power allows her to fight against the God tiers of the verse is entirely nonsensical. Nevermind the fact that Sumireko's buff is a power, not a strength buff.
Even if none of these were true, it'd be an outlier. Simple as that. Every single high tier in Gensokyo being able to destroy the entire cosmology goes against every single implications of limits by any of these characters.
-I thought we went over this years ago, but Yukari's statement is not a feat. The text simply says she can undermine reality. Not ALL of existence. It's saying her power is OP because she can manipulate a basic building block of reality. And that without this building block of reality, everything would be one. And by manipulating said building block you can undermine reality. But nowhere does it says that she can manipulate all of reality at once. In fact Yukari being able to just, casually destroy all of existence if she wanted to is unsupported anywhere, and she is never considered this harsh of a threat by anyone outside of Gensokyo.
-The "pressure" scan is bunk. Yukari's boundary manip isn't Low 1-C in potency, only hax. There is no reason to assume you need Low 1-C durability to be able to use it. Besides, it clearly states that you don't need to be able to handle it if you're a weird youkai like Yukari. So really, anyone below Yukari in power wouldn't need to be able to brute force through using it either. So no, this doesn't scale to anything.
-I don't even know why Sumireko fighting Junko and Hecatia is considered even remotely valid. Violet Detector is still a Spell Card fight. And we know Junko and Hecatia are far, far more powerful than anyone in Gensokyo. Saying Okina granting Sumireko "some" of her power allows her to fight against the God tiers of the verse is entirely nonsensical. Nevermind the fact that Sumireko's buff is a power, not a strength buff.
Even if none of these were true, it'd be an outlier. Simple as that. Every single high tier in Gensokyo being able to destroy the entire cosmology goes against every single implications of limits by any of these characters.
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
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My my~ I'll compile a post of what I find to be my stronger subjects to reply against or for.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I never said she needed to do it all at once. In fact, I outright say it is an over time feat. However, you are ignoring the very vital context that you cannot apply a timeframe to the destruction of an infinite low 1-C structure in a meaningful way; Yukari could take literal centuries to accomplish this feat, but she would still need low 1-C AP to do so. You're also ignoring the 'power comparable to the gods' scan. Also, Yukari not being treated as much of a threat despite being able to destroy reality is... a very odd take. Even at high 3-A, your own proposed tier, she'd still possess more than enough power to destroy literally every habitable location in the series in like, a few minutes at most, yet she still isn't really considered a threat in that way. The whole "never considered a threat" counterpoint is still true under your own proposals, so why is it different here?
First off, being a weird youkai like Yukari is a very broad descriptor that we can't just assume applies to every other youkai who can use boundary manipulation. Even then, this is ignoring how Reimu, who is very obviously not a youkai, can still use it, so this point ultimately doesn't mean much. Also, the character 圧 (which is what the boundary manip pressure scan uses) is used to represent physical pressure, so it obviously is applying some degree of physical strain on the body that needs to be withstood; Literally the textbook definition of durability.
Dude, it is repeatedly shown throughout VD that the dream selves you fight are out to kill you. Why would they even remotely hold back? It still using spell cards doesn't mean much, because in the case of Junko, her spell cards are quite literally designed to kill people. And it's not like spell cards are non-lethal either, Marisa's whole segment in AFiEU is her talking about the many different ways spell cards can kill you. Also, nowhere is it stated that Okina grants new powers to Sumireko. The powers (in the ability sense) you gain in VD are gained before you even encounter Okina. She's clearly talking about how her new power will be used to fight even stronger dream dwellers, so it's definitely a power amp.
As for her matching the god tiers of the verse, this is literally combining Okina's power with what Sumireko already has. Neither of them scale directly, they're still massively inferior, but they still need to be low 1-C; After all, fighting someone literally two degrees of infinity above you and winning is a lot less reasonable than just... being at the same tier, but significantly weaker.
Saikou
We have 5 people replicating or matching low 1-C levels of power. Even if you discount Satori and Nue due to the "weird youkai" thing, that's still consistently tier 1. Consider that most tier 1 verses scale off of a single feat or character; Scaling off of 3? Pretty clearly a reason to upgrade the verse.
That is more consistent than most tiers Touhou has been at during its time in this wiki. If this is an outlier, then literally every other tier must logically be an outlier as well. Tier 6, tier 5, tier 4 all had less feats supporting their ratings, yet you had no issue with that.
EDIT: Almost forgot about this statement, which does act as supporting evidence for Yukari affecting all of reality. The "all boundaries" thing could also extend to the boundary of red & white, which dictates existence itself and is the beginning of all things. So right now we have 3-4 statements reasonably scaling Yukari to all of reality in some fashion. Awfully consistent for an outlier.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Thank you Doge
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Then you realize their hax are still 1-A. Don't get your hopes up.
I still disagree on Otherworlds not being separate space time, but I'm agreeing towards Low 1-C for the whole cosmology. I'll leave the scaling chain to you guys, but I'll say that Okina can be comparable to Hecatia since she's confident enough to fight the "big shots" of hell which would include Hecatia, it's stated somewhere on the last volume of Sangetsuzei.
-The "pressure" scan is bunk. Yukari's boundary manip isn't Low 1-C in potency, only hax. There is no reason to assume you need Low 1-C durability to be able to use it. Besides, it clearly states that you don't need to be able to handle it if you're a weird youkai like Yukari. So really, anyone below Yukari in power wouldn't need to be able to brute force through using it either. So no, this doesn't scale to anything.
Pressure is clearly referring to how strong that power is to the point you will get knocked out if you don't have Low 1-C durability or resistance, so it's either every Touhou dudes get Low 1-C hax resistance or Low 1-C durability, you choose.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I gotcha covered. This pretty strongly supports how Okina's power when combined with that of other high tiers can match Hecatia.
Also, having double checked the interview where Hecatia is stated to be the strongest character, that actually took place before HSiFS was released (volume 1 of SCoOW, which released in 2015, while HSiFS was in 2017), so that statement wouldn't have included Okina. So, her scaling to Hecatia isn't really contradicted by anything because we can't apply statements like that to every single character going forward (if we did use that logic, the Watatsuki sisters would be above Hecatia).
Eh, idk why the supposed resistances would apply to everyone, as funny as that would be, but yeah, it is either resistance or durability. I personally am leaning towards durability but either works.
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I'm exaggerating. Thanks for searching the scan btw (It's hard for me for obvious reasons).
As you can see Saikou, Hecatia being relative to Okina doesn't really contradict anything. Okina then scales to a couple of dudes, you might even say Clownpiece somewhat scales to her since she can handle not getting oneshotted by Low 1-C AP unlike the other fairies. Of course normal fodder fairies doesn't scale.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Very clear cut as always.
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What you should expect from an author that created the verse when he was high.
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Okina scaling to Hecatia makes not even remotely any sense.
The Violet Detector thing is entirely bunk like I said (and even if you accept it, you'd place nearly all Gensokyo high tiers on par with Hecatia, which is nonsensical), but the manga scale isn't good either. It's entirely vague in what way Okina would be a threat (She is an inherently sneaky character, and a lot of her 'feats' even in Gensokyo are indirect), it's vague who she is being a threat to (A lot of high tiers in Hell that aren't Hecatia exists, such as the animal matriarchs) and Okina herself is known to boast a lot and make a show for everyone to see. I wouldn't take such a vague statement from such an unreliable source directly.
This notion is also severely contradicted:
-She is a Sage alongside Kasen and Yukari. She wouldn't be held to the same title as people several infinities lower than her in power. And she would absolutely not need the help of Yukari to make the Barrier if she were Low 1-C.
-Okina is very much a Gensokyo dweller. Okina not existing in canon yet doesn't mean that Hecatia's statement doesn't apply to her. Nothing implies Okina is far above the Moon or Gensokyo. So she would still be below her.
-All Sages worship the Dragon God. We know the Dragon Palace is the Moon Capital. And Hecatia is above the Moon. Therefore Hecatia is far above a deity the sages (including Okina) worship.
-It's heavily implied that the sages needed to work together in order to make the barrier. Despite it being High 3-A. This honestly should just put a huge stop to most attempts to scale them higher. They're not several infinities higher than the energy needed to create Gensokyo.
A vague statement from a known boaster that can very well be interpreted in non-contradictory ways has no reason to make Okina Low 1-C. And in general, the more people you scale to Hecatia, the less and less we have reasons to even scale her to Junko.
The list I provided earlier should be the only things to scale to Low 1-C in AP (give or take some lunarian deities). Not any actual Gensokyo people.
The Violet Detector thing is entirely bunk like I said (and even if you accept it, you'd place nearly all Gensokyo high tiers on par with Hecatia, which is nonsensical), but the manga scale isn't good either. It's entirely vague in what way Okina would be a threat (She is an inherently sneaky character, and a lot of her 'feats' even in Gensokyo are indirect), it's vague who she is being a threat to (A lot of high tiers in Hell that aren't Hecatia exists, such as the animal matriarchs) and Okina herself is known to boast a lot and make a show for everyone to see. I wouldn't take such a vague statement from such an unreliable source directly.
This notion is also severely contradicted:
-She is a Sage alongside Kasen and Yukari. She wouldn't be held to the same title as people several infinities lower than her in power. And she would absolutely not need the help of Yukari to make the Barrier if she were Low 1-C.
-Okina is very much a Gensokyo dweller. Okina not existing in canon yet doesn't mean that Hecatia's statement doesn't apply to her. Nothing implies Okina is far above the Moon or Gensokyo. So she would still be below her.
-All Sages worship the Dragon God. We know the Dragon Palace is the Moon Capital. And Hecatia is above the Moon. Therefore Hecatia is far above a deity the sages (including Okina) worship.
-It's heavily implied that the sages needed to work together in order to make the barrier. Despite it being High 3-A. This honestly should just put a huge stop to most attempts to scale them higher. They're not several infinities higher than the energy needed to create Gensokyo.
A vague statement from a known boaster that can very well be interpreted in non-contradictory ways has no reason to make Okina Low 1-C. And in general, the more people you scale to Hecatia, the less and less we have reasons to even scale her to Junko.
The list I provided earlier should be the only things to scale to Low 1-C in AP (give or take some lunarian deities). Not any actual Gensokyo people.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Your basis of the VD scaling being wrong is that Hecatia should be overwhelmingly superior to Okina, which has been proven false already. As well as the stuff relating to the energy being provided just being hax/characters holding back, but that can easily be disproved by just a cursory reading of VD's script so I'm not gonna repeat myself unless someone else asks about it. Also, the animal matriarchs have no real power over Hell's general structure; They're authorities in the relatively small subset of Hell that is the Animal Realm, so assuming that they're the "big shots" Okina was referring to is a bit of a stretch. Okina boasting by itself isn't much but it is supported by the literal, actual feat of her providing enough energy to Sumireko to face Hecatia.
You also seem to be under the impression that I propose scaling Okina directly to Hecatia. This is false, and I know that it would be downscaling to a pretty significant degree. The point is that Okina's power, in addition to base Sumireko's power, could match Hecatia; Not even necessarily in an extended fight, either, just for a minute or two at most. The problem is that if we assume Okina provided anything less than low 1-C amounts of energy, against a low 1-C opponent, it would've been completely ineffective and Sumireko would've gotten shitstomped. They must be on the same degree of infinity (low 1-C), regardless of how close to each other they are within that tier.
This is completely irrelevant. Creating the barrier was an act of conceptual manipulation; It is literally an abstract barrier between fantasy and reality. Out of the sages, only Yukari has the ability to control boundaries, so of course she was needed. The creation of the barrier had nothing to do with AP, and a high 3-A, low 1-C, or even a 1-A character would all still need hax to create it.
You don't seem to understand that we cannot let statements hold true in all future circumstances regardless of new information. At the time the statement was made, Hecatia scaling above everyone else made sense and wasn't contradicted. But then HSiFS was released, and then VFiS had its final chapter, and VD was released, and suddenly we have more precedent for placing Hecatia elsewhere in the scaling chain. It's not like WoG is the end-all be-all; Shit like ZUN saying Reimu is the strongest character would be tossed out on the basis of it not being supported in canon.
New information can override old information. We've done this many times before, like with Hell's size going from planetary to infinite, or the Watatsuki sisters no longer being at the top of the scaling chain. Can you explain why this situation is different?
Like I said before, the creation of Gensokyo was hax, not AP, nor can it be attributed to AP in any fashion. Even then, it is confirmed by many distinct sources that Yukari and Yukari alone created the barrier. The sages working together was more along the lines of them bargaining with the Dragon God, which again, has 0 implications for AP. Can you please show a scan suggesting that the other sages contributed to the act of creating the barrier?
...Literally what does the location of the Dragon God's palace have to do with anything? That's just where he lives. Also, why is the sages worshiping the Dragon God relevant in the slightest? All gods in Touhou are worshiped to some degree. That doesn't mean they automatically scale above everyone who worships them. None of this shit means anything for AP.
And of course, you still have to recognize that Yukari destroying a low 1-C reality over time (which you still haven't debunked) shows she'd scale to a low 1-C Okina anyways. I'm gonna be honest man it feels like your arguments just keep verging into headcanon territory, with shit like the sages all putting equal effort into the barrier and worshiping someone making that person automatically stronger than you.
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
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i'm making a reply but i likely won't finish it until tomorrow
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,464
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- Thread starter
- #151
I am not remotely convinced of everyone who scales to Yukari scaling to tier 1. Mostly due to the scans being very vague.
"Undermining reality" feels like a really general statement that doesn't solidify any version of tier 1 AP, only hax. At best it proves Yukari can warp reality on a localized scale (which is literally what it does). To undermine definitely does not mean to destroy in a literal sense, and it's absolutely not enough evidence to prove that Yukari can collapse the world back into a nondual state, even over time.
For example, we wouldn't give someone who claims to "tear apart the fabric of reality" (looking at you) scaling to the entire cosmology immediately, as that could mean many things. You don't really have proof so far that it means Yukari would rip apart the entire brane cosmology.
Same with the power of the gods, also far too vague for any solid tier 1 scaling. It could definitely mean a lot of things that aren't AP related, for example: function. Yukari manipulating the boundaries and gods making boundaries are similarly comparable to function, though that doesn't mean AP. We'd need far more solid evidence which I think is lacking.
I'm fine with it being resistance, I guess. The pressure stuff is still kind of vague so I'm not comfortable with it being full on durability. Hecatia scaling I'd probably need it clarified to me? But with my disagreements on boundary manip being Low 1-C in AP, it feels far more outlier-y than anything.
"Undermining reality" feels like a really general statement that doesn't solidify any version of tier 1 AP, only hax. At best it proves Yukari can warp reality on a localized scale (which is literally what it does). To undermine definitely does not mean to destroy in a literal sense, and it's absolutely not enough evidence to prove that Yukari can collapse the world back into a nondual state, even over time.
For example, we wouldn't give someone who claims to "tear apart the fabric of reality" (looking at you) scaling to the entire cosmology immediately, as that could mean many things. You don't really have proof so far that it means Yukari would rip apart the entire brane cosmology.
Same with the power of the gods, also far too vague for any solid tier 1 scaling. It could definitely mean a lot of things that aren't AP related, for example: function. Yukari manipulating the boundaries and gods making boundaries are similarly comparable to function, though that doesn't mean AP. We'd need far more solid evidence which I think is lacking.
I'm fine with it being resistance, I guess. The pressure stuff is still kind of vague so I'm not comfortable with it being full on durability. Hecatia scaling I'd probably need it clarified to me? But with my disagreements on boundary manip being Low 1-C in AP, it feels far more outlier-y than anything.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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In this context it very much would. Undermine means to slowly weaken and destroy something, but it can also be used to describe weakening or destroying something like someone's livelihood. The latter definition obviously does not apply. It can also be used to describe digging a tunnel through the earth, but again, very unlikely in this context. So out of the 3 definitions we have to work with, destruction in a literal sense seems most logical. I am also aware of the feat itself being hax, but it is a form of hax that would scale to AP (in the same vein as how we give characters "(x) with reality warping").
I'm also not saying that it affects all of reality all at once. That's certainly not implied by the text, but for it to not scale to AP, you need to prove that undermine means literally anything besides destruction here. Can you do that?
I mean... we literally do? Bill has a 3-A over time rating, sounds like he scales to me. Just that it doesn't happen immediately, which is the same deal for Yukari. The only difference is, Yukari is doing this to an infinite, higher-dimensional structure. We can't really apply timeframes there, as a fraction of low 1-C energy will always be low 1-C.
It's a similar issue to how we give infinite speed to characters who cross infinite spaces in finite time; We're still dividing the energy/distance by a given time frame, but because you can't effectively divide infinity, it'll always lead to the same result.
Okay, but that's literally why gods are getting upgraded to low 1-C in the first place. They made the boundaries that make up this low 1-C reality. Also, the text uses 力, which is used to denote strength or force, so it is definitely being used to compare the two in terms of AP.
Take your time.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,464
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- #153
I'm doing homework so I can't fully respond but Gravity Falls' cosmology is 2-A which Bill does not scale to despite having the statement of "ripping apart the very fabric of existence" so you're misunderstanding that there.
It'd be similar with this, in my opinion.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I mean the note on his profile mentions how the reason is because there are many different realities in Gravity Falls (hence 2-A), so tearing apart the fabric of a reality doesn't mean all of them. However, Touhou's cosmology is one, connected, very large reality (according to your proposal, anyways); So Akyuu's statement would be referring to just the one we know of, which is low 1-C.
So basically if the point of contention is "they only scale to one reality at a time", that still isn't an issue for Yukari's scaling.
So basically if the point of contention is "they only scale to one reality at a time", that still isn't an issue for Yukari's scaling.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,464
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I decided to double check with Ultima, and he didn't agree either so I'll just paraphrase what he said basically.
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The statement about "undermining reality" is not sufficient enough to say that Yukari can collapse the bulk into a nondual state, even if overtime. It's far too general and warping reality on a local level would easily be enough for it to be considered as undermining reality.
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My own section.
We shouldn't take the super high end interpretations by default. If you have a feat of Yukari manipulating the entire structure, then I would be more convinced.
As for your second part. That still seems to just be hax, not AP. Manipulating a boundary /=/ creating all boundaries in the structure which is what makes Yukari different from the gods. To get actual AP, you would need far more proof of it affecting the entire structure than just "she can manipulate boundaries just like the gods."
力 doesn't mean AP all the time. In this context I'm fairly sure it could just mean "ability", as that is a possible definition in both usages of the word. While physical strength is one of the definitions, "ability" and "mystical power" is another one, which absolutely does not denote scaling to AP by default. It'll be hax scaling, not AP.
Still don't love arguing Japanese like that, but w/e.
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The statement about "undermining reality" is not sufficient enough to say that Yukari can collapse the bulk into a nondual state, even if overtime. It's far too general and warping reality on a local level would easily be enough for it to be considered as undermining reality.
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My own section.
We shouldn't take the super high end interpretations by default. If you have a feat of Yukari manipulating the entire structure, then I would be more convinced.
As for your second part. That still seems to just be hax, not AP. Manipulating a boundary /=/ creating all boundaries in the structure which is what makes Yukari different from the gods. To get actual AP, you would need far more proof of it affecting the entire structure than just "she can manipulate boundaries just like the gods."
力 doesn't mean AP all the time. In this context I'm fairly sure it could just mean "ability", as that is a possible definition in both usages of the word. While physical strength is one of the definitions, "ability" and "mystical power" is another one, which absolutely does not denote scaling to AP by default. It'll be hax scaling, not AP.
Still don't love arguing Japanese like that, but w/e.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I feel like we're overly focusing on one statement and not the two other statements that support the 'undermining' statement. We can't just take things as singular statements, we need to use the broader context of a supposed feat from across multiple sources; Something you, ironically, accuse me of not doing. The possibility of her affecting the boundary of red and white, which dictates existence itself and is stated to be the beginning of all things, definitely supports this statement.
I keep telling you its hax. It also scales to AP. We very frequently use hax to scale characters to AP; In fact, the proposed scaling for gods that you provided uses hax to scale to AP. I'm not sure why it being hax is even remotely relevant. If Yukari and the gods scale to each other in terms of hax potency, they scale in terms of AP as well, since the AP value for gods was always based on hax.
Also, using 力 as 'ability' in this context makes very little sense. Ability of the gods to do what? If you replace power with ability in that passage, it's pretty clear that one contextually makes more sense than the other:
"Among the abilities youkai are known to possess, this is one of the most dangerous, being comparable even to the ability of gods"
It isn't giving a point of comparison at all, which doesn't make sense in a context where they're supposed to be compared; Translating it as power or strength makes far more sense, as it functions as the basis of the comparison between Yukari and the gods.
Honestly, though, at this point this is getting circular and we should wait for Doge's comments on the cosmology, because if the accepted cosmology changes, so will the scaling.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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Also, I wanna point out that using the specific definition of a Japanese character here as a debunk (regardless of its validity), but then refusing the recognize the specific definition of a character when it would buff the verse (the Palanquin Ship feat) seems very biased.
So let me ask you this: Should we use the original definitions of kanji in these debates, or should we not? This isn't something you can go back and forth on.
So let me ask you this: Should we use the original definitions of kanji in these debates, or should we not? This isn't something you can go back and forth on.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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I posted it before but here it is again. It's this statement, which does act as supporting evidence for Yukari affecting all of reality. The "all boundaries" thing could also extend to the boundary of red & white, which dictates existence itself and is the beginning of all things.
Also I'd still like an answer on whether or not we should give the original Japanese text precedence. This is something we need to try and be consistent on. I personally think we should, if that means anything.
Also I'd still like an answer on whether or not we should give the original Japanese text precedence. This is something we need to try and be consistent on. I personally think we should, if that means anything.
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Unless every tier 1 character has conceptual manipulation then this is wrong.
-Okina is very much a Gensokyo dweller. Okina not existing in canon yet doesn't mean that Hecatia's statement doesn't apply to her. Nothing implies Okina is far above the Moon or Gensokyo. So she would still be below her.
Actually, the only Lunarians that are truly superior to Gensokyo people are the big shots on it, you can't hit every Lunarian>Reimu and Co when characters like Kaguya is comparable to a human (Mokou) in Gensokyo and got demolished by IN cast.
Okina worshipping the Dragon God and he lives in the Moon doesn't mean anything either, it's just where he...prefer to stay.
-It's heavily implied that the sages needed to work together in order to make the barrier. Despite it being High 3-A. This honestly should just put a huge stop to most attempts to scale them higher. They're not several infinities higher than the energy needed to create Gensokyo.
That's...hax, manipulating boundary isn't something that everyone can do hence why characters that are capable of doing so are top tiers in the verse (Primordial Gods) so that argument is bunk
Except she can manipulate that...color boundary that I forgot what color is it that is responsible for existence and nothingness, so yeah.
Regardless if Yukari does get Low 1-C AP then I'll be happy, but if she got Low 1-C hax then I will also be happy but a bit non happier (if that even makes any sense lol)
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