Maou Gakuin (F) 2-A Removal.

[Tatsumi504]

Quote where I said it is equal. I said this further shows that naphta limits possibilites, which is essentially what you have said, not that that both abilities are equal, please if you will strawman my argument, I will prefer you do not reply to them

Anos: Manifests the possibility of drawing the sword
Naphta: Limits the future to where the sword is not drawn.

Possibility is the chance (Anos drawing sword) to happen. Anos manifests that possibility creating another of himself that draws the blade but remains abstract (possibility). Naphta restricts the future (time) to an event where the sword is not drawn.

OR​

Anos manifests the probability of drawing Levaingilma at 10:30:35 , Naphta restricts the future to 10:30:40 where the sword was not drawn, manifested possibility is officially useless as the the future is restricted to one where the sword isn't drawn. The time stamps aren't even necessary, the future was fixated so the possibility no longer exists. Were Naphta merely manifesting possibilities like Anos does with Venejiara, there will simply be three Anos Voldigoad's existing (the physical one, an abstract one that drew the sword and another abstract one that didn't)

How difficult is this to understand? Possibility of an event to take place vs time where that possibility didn't happen so it no longer exists

Because she has power over the possibility, this cannot be that hard

The tactic was simple preoccupy the future with the fact that the sword is in the sheath so as not to see his real intentions.
The point was this, something that exists as a possibility (spell, attack) are futures and naphta can limit them.

Hell no.

By continuing to limit the chance of drawing the Levingirma from its sheath, he deprives himself of the option to influence other aspects of the future.

Anos didn't plan to preoccupy shit. He has so much respect for the two that he gave them enough time to unleash their full power on him. Naphta just has to continuously limit the future to one where the sword isn't drawn so she wasn't free to perform other restrictions as Anos just continued manifesting more possibilities of him drawing the sword.

There is meaning in the prophecies announced by the prophet. You wanted to convince me that using Livaingirma is useless, because even the goddess of the future cannot limit everything before me.

This one was Deidrich's tactic against Anos to get him to only be wary of an attack during the time he prophesied, get him to stop using Levaingilma because with Anos as the enemy there are certain restrictions that are impossible.

Although Diedrich tries to swing the Greatsword of the World Future with all his might, in a pure contest of strength there are not many opportunities to limit the future. The crushed greatsword crashed to the floor with a thud.

Because Anos is physically stronger than Deidrich and Naphta, in a pure contest of strength, there's no restriction Naphta can perform that makes them stronger.

The spell was limited the moment I cast it, and the future was entirely occupied by the possibility that I would continue to hold the sword in its sheath. But this was the moment I had been waiting for. And while that moment continued to flow, I pulled the Levayingirma out of its sheath. But despite the shimmer of the silver blade of the almighty sword, I was not erased from existence by its power.

This is the particular future Naphta failed to see as in this branch her eyes were destroyed so the present she saw wasn't seen by herself in an earlier time.
Deidrich and Naphta assumed Anos manifested the probability of drawing Levaingilma and restricted the future to one where the sword remained in the sheath. Anos then used this to actually draw the blade himself because the future was set that the sword remained within it's sheath.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Are we for real doing this again?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Disagreeing atm.

 

[wwereymy235]

Alright, as I originally did on the first downgrade thread, I disagree. My heart aches in Pein.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Okay so I'm just gonna drop a reply and then unfollow because the last time I downgraded MGK the supporter base gave me an aneurysm. Anyways:

• Possibilities being universes is nuked by the fact that, well, these aren't actualized. They're hypotheticals. Untierable
• Land of Traces is infinite in size but is never stated to be as such specifically relative to the 700 million years of the universe's past. And btw, containing only a finite amount of a universe's timeline is High 3-A, the spatio-temporal separation is the only reason this is Low 2-C considering it meets the size requirement (it's infinite in size), but absolutely not 2-A

So yeah, I agree with the OP. No idea how the re-upgrade got passed

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

5 disagrees and 1 agree (though Planck doesn't seem like he saw the counter arguments)
So when are we going to close this rejected thread?

 

[NousGalia]

Possibilities being universes is nuked by the fact that, well, these aren't actualized. They're hypotheticals. Untierable

The issue of all possibilities being realized has been raised many times, you should have a counter argument.

containing only a finite amount of a universe's timeline is High 3-A

Land of Traces currently contains only 700 million years of the past because Militia World has only existed for 700 million years; all pasts are represented as traces contained within Land of Traces. Since Land of Traces has infinite size, it can completely hold an infinite number of traces or, in other words, contain an infinite number of years of the past of Militia World.

 

[CloverDragon03]

The issue of all possibilities being realized has been raised many times, you should have a counter argument.

The problem is that the re-upgrade never actually addressed this, as if dancing around the issue

Land of Traces currently contains only 700 million years of the past because Militia World has only existed for 700 million years; all pasts are represented as traces contained within Land of Traces. Since Land of Traces has infinite size, it can completely hold an infinite number of traces or, in other words, contain an infinite number of years of the past of Militia World.

That is still only Low 2-C

Why do I even...?

 

[DemonKing021]

The problem is that the re-upgrade never actually addressed this, as if dancing around the issue

Tatsumi literally wrote an entire essay explaining this. Why not just read that instead of saying they never addressed it. Here

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tatsumi literally wrote an entire essay explaining this. Why not just read that instead of saying they never addressed it. Here

This just in, you're not allowed to not be convinced, you HAVE to agree

MGK supporters have had a tendency to do this thing where they don't comprehend the idea of being disagreed with so they rationalize it as "you didn't read" or worse, accusations of bias come in, and then wonder why the verse is disliked on the wiki. More blunt than I'd like, honestly, but it's a serious problem that I wish was fixed

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Tatsumi literally wrote an entire essay explaining this. Why not just read that instead of saying they never addressed it. Here

The issue of all possibilities being realized has been raised many times, you should have a counter argument.

Land of Traces currently contains only 700 million years of the past because Militia World has only existed for 700 million years; all pasts are represented as traces contained within Land of Traces. Since Land of Traces has infinite size, it can completely hold an infinite number of traces or, in other words, contain an infinite number of years of the past of Militia World.

Can you both stop? Thread already got rejected no point in trying to convince someone who might never agree with you and drag this thread further.

Go do something better than wasting your time here on already rejected topic.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Also, Leph's right about the whole matter regarding a discussion rule. These threads did not happen within rapid succession of each other, not even close. So please stop trying to quash discussion

 

[PrinceofPein]

This is the first rejection, so I really do not know what people are going on about a discussion rule. A discussion rule is only valid if a topic has been rejected multiple times in the past, this has never been rejected before.
Also, I agree with CloverDragon, MG fans think anyone who disagrees with them cannot read from all my interactions with them, as seen in Tatsumi's post and all of them's posts. They provide a toxic environment for arguing on the site with snide remarks.

I did text Ultima and produced a summary, he also thinks it is just precog with probability manip. Hopefully he agrees to read the thread and comment here on in the new one.

That aside, a new thread (I spent hours making a reply to Tatsumi with scans but then I think that is better for a new thread OP, at least when there are staff knowledgeable on high tiers to comment), preferably a staff thread, is what will be needed cause not only is this whole possibly future thing bogus, we have a logic disconnect here. All domains were given, 2-A even though one was literally proven to be just low 2-C. And if you are claiming they are all the same size then obviously they are all low 2-C.

 

[ROZAN-U]

All domains weren't given 2-A , they were given same Endless/Infinite size.
entire point 4 in the previous thread never mentions 2-A.

4. Divine Domains aren't of Universal Size

 

[CloverDragon03]

That aside, a new thread (I spent hours making a reply to Tatsumi with scans but then I think that is better for a new thread OP, at least when there are staff knowledgeable on high tiers to comment), preferably a staff thread, is what will be needed cause not only is this whole possibly future thing bogus, we have a logic disconnect here. All domains were given, 2-A even though one was literally proven to be just low 2-C. And if you are claiming they are all the same size then obviously they are all low 2-C.

In my honest opinion, you should still make your response here, in the event that another thread doesn't happen (I imagine it'll be super frowned upon, and honestly for not-invalid reasons). I think it's good to have it out, and at least that way you can easily link to it if staff ask for a summary of the arguments

 

[PrinceofPein]

All domains weren't given 2-A , they were given same Endless/Infinite size.
entire point 4 in the previous thread never mentions 2-A.

You are quoting him replying to the arguments that are made to remove the 2-A. I don't even think you people bother to do the reading.

In my honest opinion, you should still make your response here, in the event that another thread doesn't happen (I imagine it'll be super frowned upon, and honestly for not-invalid reasons). I think it's good to have it out, and at least that way you can easily link to it if staff ask for a summary of the arguments

I will, just first trying to ask the staff, if they are still willing to comment here. Since officially this is actually rejected, I do not want to waste my effort on something that is pointless.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

You are quoting him replying to the arguments that are made to remove the 2-A. I don't even think you people bother to do the reading.

I will, just first trying to ask the staff, if they are still willing to comment here. Since officially this is actually rejected, I do not want to waste my effort on something that is pointless.

Would probably be better on a new thread, ngl. Unfortunately staff have a really bad tendency of refusing to comeback to a thread they have already evaluated. As could be seen with Planck not coming back

However, I will note, if the next thread is a staff one, permission to comment should be given to Tatsumi and Dog3352

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Would probably be better on a new thread, ngl. Unfortunately staff have a really bad tendency of refusing to comeback to a thread they have already evaluated. As could be seen with Planck not coming back

Since it's a rejected topic new thread have to make atleast after 2 months, right? If they have pretty similar arguments.

However, I will note, if the next thread is a staff one, permission to comment should be given to Tatsumi and Dog3352

That's what we had for this thread so not to make it repeatative or longer.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since it's a rejected topic new thread have to make atleast after 2 months, right? If they have pretty similar arguments.

No. Simply a continuation of this one, specially if Ultima does plan to comment.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Okay. Though from what I heard Ultima seems to be busy in his studies atm.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Nevertheless, as I said beforehand, Pein can give his response here should they want thread is still open cuz I want to see it

 

[PrinceofPein]

Thank you Lephyr.
Staffs will not come back here and I wish to know if Ultima will like to comment here or the new thread.
If he prefers here, I will make the reply and then wait the a week or so he will take to reply.
If he says he can't reply within a reasonable timeframe, the thread can be closed till he can.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Thank you Lephyr.
Staffs will not come back here and I wish to know if Ultima will like to comment here or the new thread.
If he prefers here, I will make the reply and then wait the a week or so he will take to reply.
If he says he can't reply within a reasonable timeframe, the thread can be closed till he can.

Fine by me.

 

[Scholar_of_Mystery]

I don't know if this was already brought out, I didn't read the entirety of the discussion, but :

“Gods are order. The proxy will be no different from them,” I explained. “The countless futures that Naphta sees are formed from that order. No matter how much power you gain, a god of order cannot overthrow another god of order.”

That means that these futures, these “possibilities” you claim to be just hypothetical, are already constructed by order, the laws and concepts of the world.

If that isn't enough :

“That means the Goddess of the Future, with her Divine Eyes, once saw past the end of the Selection Trial. Why can’t she see that future anymore?”

“I will answer that,” Naphta said. “The order of the Goddess of the Future receives its power from the future. The future can only be seen if it exists. It’s a complex order, but to put it simply, it’s easier to see the future the further away it is from the present. The future with the end of the Selection Trial is close to this current point in time. There isn’t enough of the future left past the end of the Selection Trial for my Eyes to see into the darkness.”

Naphta can see a specific future if and only if it already exists, that means that the futures that she sees and the “possible worlds” are really real.

Hope this help. So Disagree

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I don't know if this was already brought out, I didn't read the entirety of the discussion, but :

That means that these futures, these “possibilities” you claim to be just hypothetical, are already constructed by order, the laws and concepts of the world.

If that isn't enough :

Naphta can see a specific future if and only if it already exists, that means that the futures that she sees and the “possible worlds” are really real.

Hope this help. So Disagree

Yeah these points already brought up. Waiting for Ultima to reply now, so it can settled.

 

[Success0906]

Yeah these points already brought up. Waiting for Ultima to reply now, so it can settled.

Wasn't he busy with his studies or something?

 

[Godsatoshi23]

Wasn't he busy with his studies or something?

Either we will wait for Ultima replies, if he wants to, for few weeks. Or close this thread and move it to Staff discussion.

 

[Scholar_of_Mystery]

The problem was Naphta (V6 and V7) couldn't see those futures because of her Divine Eyes having a blind spot. So she didn't knew the existence of these futures. So to her they will be possibilities.

It should be noted that the “blind spot” in her Divine Eyes is caused by the injury done by Anos with the Sword of Almighty, making her lose her ability to see with her Divine Eyes.

So in fact, she didn't knew their existence because she didn't have the means to see them in the first place, because her Divine Eyes were injured. There was no way her past versions, the present ones in Vol 6 and early Vol 7 when she says that she doesn't see the future, could see them.

It doesn't contradict the fact the future are already there. They literally exist. That's why present Naphta can see them. And she couldn't see some futures because those future Naphta became blind, that's all.

 

[fandom_29dan]

DISAGREE COMPLETELY! I'm so tired of this back-and-forth of the level of his power. Let it be 2-A. We have already reached volume 16, and so much needs to be added to the MG pages.

 

[fandom_29dan]

so has there been any news

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

It has been two weeks now, so looks like Ultima won't come anytime soon. As such, I will close the thread. If Ultima wants to discuss this, he can reopen it.