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Touhou General Revisions (Tier 2 Removal, Hax Revisions)

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Agree with most of things especially cm cus spell card thingy removal(like they can just name shit and clear except if you want to say every single person in 2hu have CM since they named they child,their pet etc)

Fear manip of yukari also more like erin finally click and realize who troll the lunarian 2 times in a row

Neutral with infinite speed removal

Disagree with tier 2 removal since we already have evidence for separate space-time for every otherworlds though H3A possible tier 2 can work

Leaning toward mid-godly for hourai
 
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Bummel said:
Agree with most of things especially cm cus spell card thingy removal(like they can just name shit and clear except if you want to say every single person in 2hu have CM since they named they child,their pet etc)

Fear manip of yukari also more like erin finally click and realize who troll the lunarian 2 times in a row
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Not really, Eirin knew that literally months in advance and never showed any sign of fear. The fear was only when Yukari showed up and smiled at her.

Also just the act of giving a name isn't CM; It has to have a tangible effect on reality. In the case of spell cards, giving them "names" both gameifies them (changing how they work to better fit the SCR, like with Fantasy Nature), and defines their form and power. So giving spell cards names does affect reality, just in a very limited scope. Totally different from like. naming your kid or whatever.
 
ÆONS said:
The OP's taken quite a while to make a response of any sort despite being active for many hours. I think we should consider splitting up the CRT into smaller parts to make it easier to have a discussion.
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Be patient. I said I'd take this thread two points at a time.
 
I mean we have a staff saying breaking it up is good, and general agreement from regular users, so I think it's about time we do actually split the thread. @Jinsye, what do you think is important enough to split off first? Seems like the tier upgrades/downgrades were suggested, but I'd like your opinion.
 
Sunk cost fallacy so I'll post it anyways.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, "trembling" meaning fear in the context of youkai makes considerably more sense when you remember youkai are literally entities born from fear. There's a very direct connection between youkai and the concept of fear.
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And how is this related to the scan at all? You can't just bring two completely unrelated scans together and clumsily connect them together especially with something as vague as trembling.

The context of the scan is that the youkai finishes performing a show, they approach her after the show and she's nervous and runs away. The fact this is the only scan for fearhax. 'Trembling' with youkai aura is way too vague in order to give an encompassing hax ability (which according to you in multiple threads allows them to instantly devour souls and minds) when literally nothing else supports it. A possible explanation is that she was just so nervous that the youkai aura was leaking out. I'm not saying that this is the correct option but it's so vague that you can't link it to an ability.

Youkai being born of fear is completely true. It's also true that they scare people. You can't just jump to conclusions and say that they have a passive fear aura because someone felt trembling.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
All you proved was that brane worlds can be 3D. But the links you provided showed that they can technically be of any dimensionality; Hell, you admit this yourself. So, if a space is infinitely large in 3 spatial directions, and possesses a flow of time independent of the bulk (something we know to be possible, as Otherworlds like Higan and Avici possess different flows of time from other Otherworlds). Even then, these flows of time clearly exist within the Otherworlds themselves; We see this with Kaguya manipulating pieces of space-time within Gensokyo itself. So manipulating the space-time within an individual brane kinda contradicts a temporal dimension existing adjacent to that entire space (in addition to different Otherworlds clearly possessing different temporal dimensions).
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This is where the concept of worldvolumes come into play. While an individual brane is 3-dimensional, they sweep out a path within the time axis called a 'worldvolume', which is extradimensional. I mentioned these in the OP.

These would be different timelines by technicality, even if they all move through the same temporal dimension, because none of these parts necessarily intersect (I.e No point in the worldvolume of brane A is the same point as in the worldvolume of brane B. They're different histories). So yes, while they would seem to have different spacetimes, you would only get Low 2-C if it's noted specifically that the past, present, and future of the brane worlds are affected. Which is not stated in neither Doremy nor Tenshi's feats.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
So Otherworlds all being one, singular space-time literally cannot be true. In fact, Gensokyo and the Outside World are spatially (and thus temporally because of this) separate. The same is true of Gensokyo and Heaven. The notion that these worlds are all connected spatially and temporally is wildly contradicted, and even a very surface-level search of the wiki shows that. I'll dig deeper if I ever get the time, but the very notion of this downgrade (and upgrade too ig) is blatantly unsupported by the lore.
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Otherworlds being spatially separate doesn't mean anything at all. Time and space being the same is literally the default assumption in reality, I have no idea why Touhou was treated as a special exception when all it's doing is stating a normal scientific concept.

So, them being spatially separate does not prove that they have separate timelines, and that destroying multiple branes would be tier 2 by default. You would require specific statements of the worldvolumes being affected.
 
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Tl;dr - Blowing up the branes does not mean blowing up the worldvolumes by default. Even if you destroy multiple branes.

Also Ultima and some others don't think the thread should be split from the amount of things to keep track of. So we should just focus on one argument at a time, which is the tier 2/1 stuff instead of making it a new thread if you really want to split it.
 
Genuine question, should I even respond to this when the consensus is to just split shit up? Because right now, we're very obviously not getting any meaningfull evaluations of the thread is postured like this, Ovens made that pretty clear. I don't feel like participating in a thread where we just go in circles while we can't get evaluations because of text walls.

Ig I'll work on a response in the meantime though.
 
Jinsye said:
Tl;dr - Blowing up the branes does not mean blowing up the worldvolumes by default. Even if you destroy multiple branes.

Also Ultima and some others don't think the thread should be split from the amount of things to keep track of. So we should just focus on one argument at a time, which is the tier 2/1 stuff instead of making it a new thread if you really want to split it.
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Wow real nice claim with uh

Exactly nothing to back it up

"People agree with me, they're just not here and you can't see or talk to them"

Real ******' classy.
 
Jinsye said:
Also Ultima and some others don't think the thread should be split from the amount of things to keep track of. So we should just focus on one argument at a time, which is the tier 2/1 stuff instead of making it a new thread if you really want to split it.
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Can you elaborate on who they might be and maybe explain why they have not participated in the thread itself? I feel it is a little bit weird how they have control over how it should work when they haven't said anything here of note.
 
Jinsye said:
Calm down.

I won't oppose the split, but I just have had people tell me that they probably don't think it's great.
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I don't care about that, I just don't like the logistics of "yeah people totally agree with me but they're just off stage so you'll just have to trust me". It's something that can very easily be abused. That's all I meant. Considering we have two staff right here in the thread telling us the split is a good idea, you should probably think about getting those anonymous supporters to make their voices heard here.
 
ÆONS said:
Can you elaborate on who they might be and maybe explain why they have not participated in the thread itself?
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Paul_Frank is one if you specifically want me to namedrop them. Ultima too.

As for the reason why these people disagree with the split is because the revision isn't even that long necessarily. It's about the length of a normal verse-wide revision which doesn't necessarily warrant it being split into more threads.
 
Jinsye said:
Paul_Frank is one if you specifically want me to namedrop them. Ultima too.

As for the reason why these people disagree with the split is because the revision isn't even that long necessarily. It's about the length of a normal verse-wide revision which doesn't necessarily warrant it being split into more threads.
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I mean that's still one staff against two rn, you're a little outvoted here.
 
This site isn't necessarily a democracy until things start getting circular. So you'd probably have to address the exact reasons for it being a split, because more than a few people think that the thread isn't long enough to warrant one.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I mean that's still one staff against two rn, you're a little outvoted here.
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Except the votes don't matter because there's no good reason to do so

It's obvious people can, and have read and responded go the entire OP as the thread is currently, either agreeing with it all, or explaining what they disagree with

Thus there's actually no argument for splitting it, besides trying to cope and delay the thread as long as possible by splitting it into two threads you can endlessly disagree with
 
Paul_Frank said:
Except the votes don't matter because there's no good reason to do so

It's obvious people can, and have read and responded go the entire OP as the thread is currently, either agreeing with it all, or explaining what they disagree with

Thus there's actually no argument for splitting it, besides trying to cope and delay the thread as long as possible by splitting it into two threads you can endlessly disagree with
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************, every time I post a revision longer than a single page in google docs for this verse, I get staff going "this is too long" "can't you split this up?" "this is impossible to evaluate", literally even one of the people you're quoting as having no issue responding to the OP (Moritzva) wants to split the thread. Hell, even I, having more time than anyone else to waste on this shit, think piling all this shit up is just a poorly disguised attempt at shotgunning things so they'll be less thoroughly deconstructed and more likely to pass without resistance.

"Votes don't matter" isn't how this site operates, period. You're just ignoring the general consensus of numerous people who think what you're doing is a bad idea because, according to you, all I want is to just delay this thread for nefarious purposes. **** off with that shit, your last sentence alone reeks of bias.
 
Why are you all like this? This accusatory behavior as well as suppression of voices is really not helping anyone, especially the staff and members who were involved in past threads agree that long threads like these are bound to cause problems.

Chill out and engage in some self-reflection because I really cannot tolerate all of this drama.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
************, every time I post a revision longer than a single page in google docs for this verse, I get staff going "this is too long" "can't you split this up?" "this is impossible to evaluate", literally even one of the people you're quoting as having no issue responding to the OP (Moritzva) wants to split the thread. Hell, even I, having more time than anyone else to waste on this shit, think piling all this shit up is just a poorly disguised attempt at shotgunning things so they'll be less thoroughly deconstructed and more likely to pass without resistance.
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But that's evidently not the case is it? People have shown they're perfectly capable of reading and deconstructing the entire thread, the argument that "Oh there's a few extra things here, so people won't be able to read it all and will just agree" can be applied to quite literally any CRT with more than one ability proposal, tier or stat change, etc so that logic doesn't really hold up when it's proven false by scrolling up in the thread
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
"Votes don't matter" isn't how this site operates, period. You're just ignoring the general consensus of numerous people who think what you're doing is a bad idea because, according to you, all I want is to just delay this thread for nefarious purposes. **** off with that shit, your last sentence alone reeks of bias.
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Incorrect, that's exactly how the site operates. If there is no good reason for the votes, or the reasoning for votes is soundly rejected, etc, votes can be entirely ignored. Look at literally any CRT where one side is debunked. In this case it's the former, there's no good reason for the votes as the only thing that's even possibly a "reason" is untrue

Also you're needlessly mad and defensive over that last sentence when it's sorta just objectively true. You intend to continue arguing until either you get more votes or the opposition gives up, because you want to win the debate do you not? If the thread is split, you'd then do this for twice as long due to doing it on two threads.
 
Okay, seriously, this isn't productive.

Fujiwara, relax for a bit. You're clearly getting heated, and while I understand why, it isn't going to help.

Ed & friends, to be frank, the thread is very large and contentious with a lot of different topics. Why do you not want to split it? Can you explain why, rather than "We don't want to, so we won't"?
 
Moritzva said:
Ed & friends, to be frank, the thread is very large and contentious with a lot of different topics. Why do you not want to split it? Can you explain why, rather than "We don't want to, so we won't"?
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Paul gave their own reasons but as for me.

I just really don't find it necessary compared it being more centralized. Plus, I genuinely don't believe it's large to the point of not being handleable when we can simply just knock out the big section on AP if you're really insistent and we're left with a decently straightforward thread.

Plus I'd like to keep the hax stuff in one place at the very least.
 
Jinsye said:
Paul gave their own reasons but as for me.

I just really don't find it necessary compared it being more centralized. Plus, I genuinely don't believe it's large to the point of not being handleable when we can simply just knock out the big section on AP if you're really insistent and we're left with a decently straightforward thread.

Plus I'd like to keep the hax stuff in one place at the very least.
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The hax stuff should still be split. It takes up most of the thread, after all. I think we should do AP --> speed --> then 2 hax threads. Even just one of these 4 threads will lead to borderline unreadable text walls, so multiplying that by 4 all but guarantees people won't want to, y'know, actually engage in the conversation (something obviously vital to CRTs).

You also gotta keep in mind that applying all of this stuff at once would be a ******* nightmare when we have like 100 pages. Splitting it up makes editing much easier in the long run.

ngl seems a little biased how i'll get people complaining at me for my long threads, but somehow this is A-OK
 
Moritzva said:
Okay, seriously, this isn't productive.

Fujiwara, relax for a bit. You're clearly getting heated, and while I understand why, it isn't going to help.

Ed & friends, to be frank, the thread is very large and contentious with a lot of different topics. Why do you not want to split it? Can you explain why, rather than "We don't want to, so we won't"?
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As I said in my own reasons, it's just like, objectively, verifiably not necessary

To add onto that, there are several larger CRTs on the site, which result in wall of text wars, that pass as one CRT just fine without being broken into four threads (looking at you Fate revisions)
 
Jibz said:
Two versus Two now that Aeyu has decided to side with Jin. The votes all tied up now.
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You say this as if Aeyu's name actually means anything in this scenario

Like. I don't think her name means much here because it's not really in response to the part in which Ant trusts her, so I don't think it means much.
 
I should actually note Aeyu is ex staff, which in my eyes should still count, but id understand if yall were against it.
 
Jibz said:
I should actually note Aeyu is ex staff, which in my eyes should still count, but id understand if yall were against it.
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I'm against it. Aeyu is no longer a staff member, hence their vote means less than one who is currently.
 
Can we please go back to talking about the hax revisions? I'm sorry for butting in, but everything has gone off the rails... Geez, I leave for a bit to clean up some stuff irl and when I come back, everything has gone to heck.
 
I agree with the Moritzva on most of the hax stuff, bar mid-godly but if you want to note that they can regen spirit go ahead and note that on the page; till there is the complete erasure of the mind, body, and soul trifecta it is not mid-godly

I don't care about the speed stuff

And for AP agree with the downgrades (partially) and the upgrades to the gods
I'm fine with High 3-A, possibly low 2-C for those who don't scale to tier 1

And on the matter of if the thread should be split or not, it shouldn't, Jinsye and Paul have already stated the reasons I have, if needs be we can simply just tackle the topics in the OP one by one, no actual reason for the thread to be split 3/4-way.
 
Paul_Frank said:
Incorrect, that's exactly how the site operates. If there is no good reason for the votes, or the reasoning for votes is soundly rejected, etc, votes can be entirely ignored. Look at literally any CRT where one side is debunked. In this case it's the former, there's no good reason for the votes as the only thing that's even possibly a "reason" is untrue

Also you're needlessly mad and defensive over that last sentence when it's sorta just objectively true. You intend to continue arguing until either you get more votes or the opposition gives up, because you want to win the debate do you not? If the thread is split, you'd then do this for twice as long due to doing it on two threads.
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Reasons were given by many people including staff at least partly based on prior experience with matters like these, you are sinply refusing to accept them as valid as well as engaging in accusatory behavior as you do in the second paragraph and the previous comment. The sort of behavior you engaged in with Fuji is simply not something I will tolerate.

Touhou CRTs being split up into smaller pieces was suggested by staff such as Antvasima, LordGriffin and Confluctor due to a previous thread being too big and complicated for them to evaluate and we decided to accept what they wanted from then on. If you really want to discuss splitting the thread, their voices should matter as well.

Anyways, my stance has not changed and good night.
 
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