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I dont wanna debate here, but i do agree with this. Probably would be best to focus on just the tier 1 stuff and infinite speed for now since you guys seemingly continued on that bit.
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Touhou General Revisions (Tier 2 Removal, Hax Revisions)
- Thread starter Jinsye
- Start date
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ÆONS
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This is preferable.
ÆONS
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I don't see a mention of Humans specifically, is it cut out?
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Full context. Not specifically humans. Just souls in general with alice talking about how she wants to experiment with them.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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She says a body without a soul, so it isn't really specific to humans. Though, we see this contradicted very, very frequently, so I'm not sure if we should take it at face value. SWR, spirit manip, Reimu and Marisa surviving without their souls in WaHH (on two occasions, for Reimu), and the same thing happening to Miyoi in Lotus Eaters. Hell, even the way dreams work in verse means your soul leaves your body and astral projects into the Dream World (or Gensokyo for Sumireko), so I think this statement has effectively been retconned into oblivion. Throw it away just like large planet level Hell.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Please read the responses too, considering the last thing I want is an FRA train :v
But please, take as much time as you need.
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Perhaps, unless it would just happen overtime or they have better resistance. Either way that debate is probably more on whether or not tenshi actually straight up soul ripped everyone in existence before they were restored, and that its not just... taking the statement way to literally........ Sounds like a major incident to me or something that wouldve been clearly shown.
What mokou said. Id reccomend just responding to whats being debated and not getting stressed responding to the whole lot if were gonna just cover part of the op this thread.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I mean, it was... her doing that was the entire plot of SWR, it's stated by many characters, and the souls definitely weren't being restored by an outside source (like Tenshi herself) because Tenshi was completely destroying them. Ignoring this feat is ignoring the whole plot of one of the games.
But, at this point we should probably pause arguing for the sake of people read the many long posts here.
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I was asked to only check out the hax part of this, which I'd prefer to do as I only know shit about 2hu anyways.
Passive fear aura doesn't seem right for the reasons I see, yeah.
Mid-Godly seems like it's valid, though, if Fujiwara is correct, though High-Godly seems a bit too iffy without further evidence.
Concept Manip doesn't seem right.
The point about Lunarian Type 1 seems correct, though it could probably just be indexed properly rather than removed alright (as it still exists, it's just not applicable or on due to circumstances).
No comment on Subjective Reality, I don't really have enough knowledge to judge that.
Resistance to Probability Manip seems valid and fine. Same with Soul Manip, though I'm less certain there.
I don't really get the time resistance thing, so no comment.
Doremy's stuff seems fine, I disagree with OP there, but Resistance to Necromancy seems kinda stupid to put on the profile even if technically correct.
That's about all I have to say.
Passive fear aura doesn't seem right for the reasons I see, yeah.
Mid-Godly seems like it's valid, though, if Fujiwara is correct, though High-Godly seems a bit too iffy without further evidence.
Concept Manip doesn't seem right.
The point about Lunarian Type 1 seems correct, though it could probably just be indexed properly rather than removed alright (as it still exists, it's just not applicable or on due to circumstances).
No comment on Subjective Reality, I don't really have enough knowledge to judge that.
Resistance to Probability Manip seems valid and fine. Same with Soul Manip, though I'm less certain there.
I don't really get the time resistance thing, so no comment.
Doremy's stuff seems fine, I disagree with OP there, but Resistance to Necromancy seems kinda stupid to put on the profile even if technically correct.
That's about all I have to say.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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This is the scan it came from, which doesn't really say impurity kills them. Just that they have impurity in them, and will die one day. Not really a connection between the two. It's more likely they'll die in accidents or battles, like the previous line suggests.
Could you elaborate a little, if you're willing? High-Godly being iffy is why we went with a "possibly" rating in the first place.
As for everything else, thanks for your help here.
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The Sanzu River's size fluctuates. I dunno why anyone would ever try to put forward crossing it as an infinite speed feat when it is canon that the river's size fluctuates and is not consistent. The simplest and most logical explanation is that its width was not infinite when it was crossed. I said this before and will continue to say so again and again.
The Palanquin ship is also just, extrapolating so much from so little - wanna know a definition I just got for corner from google? "a part, region, or area, especially one regarded as secluded or remote." Wow! Certainly not the end of a region!
As for the arguments against the infinite corridor, the ones I've made in the past, as well as Ed/Saikou's here, suffice, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm more invested in this than the rest of the thread; I don't think the infinite speed arguments hold any water and the only reason they ended up getting through is because basically no one was around to argue against them.
The Palanquin ship is also just, extrapolating so much from so little - wanna know a definition I just got for corner from google? "a part, region, or area, especially one regarded as secluded or remote." Wow! Certainly not the end of a region!
As for the arguments against the infinite corridor, the ones I've made in the past, as well as Ed/Saikou's here, suffice, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm more invested in this than the rest of the thread; I don't think the infinite speed arguments hold any water and the only reason they ended up getting through is because basically no one was around to argue against them.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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The River's size only fluctuates canonically... when it's intentionally fluctuated by another character, aka Komachi? The River is innately infinite in size without her altering it, whenever Komachi is around to be paid to manipulate it to not be infinite in size, it's no longer infinite.
There's no instances throughout the series in which the river is fluctuated in size on its own. It is only this one character in the entire series who has the specific ability to manipulate the size of this river because it's her job to do so, it is very consistent in this fact. Komachi wouldn't need to be there to do her job if this fact wasn't consistent. She is the one who controls who comes and goes through the river by altering its size when she is paid. Without payment, the river is infinite. Komachi was not present for this river crossing at all, therefore it's infinite in size.
It's not complex. I can understand finding the concept of "Infinite Speed" silly but it's something we have on this Wiki for a reason and this meets the standards for it pretty swimmingly.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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It only fluctuates when Komachi manipulates it though, it doesn't do that by itself; It needs external stimuli (Komachi). And in WBaWC, we have two characters stating that Komachi did not manipulate the river. It's infinite in it's default state, and it was unchanged when they crossed it. This would also be OOC for Komachi considering 1. She's very lazy and almost never actually does any work related to the Sanzu River and 2. Hostile beast spirits were crossing the river and invading Gensokyo, so Komachi shortening the river would literally be her assisting a hostile faction that wants to harm Gensokyo. That's wildly OOC for her.
Also, all of this assumes that Komachi used her spatial manipulation to begin with, but there's nothing showing, stating, or even implying that. We don't just assume characters are using their powers at arbitrary times, so unless somebody shows me a scan of Komachi using her distance manip during the events of WBaWC, this is just a headcanon.
That's the english definition. However, please note that the kanji used for corner in the original text (角) literally does not fit that definition. It always refers to the corners as in the edge of an object; Or a street corner, but, Makai ain't exactly a street. Basically, trying to say that the text means "remote/secluded area" is applying a definition that doesn't exist and is pure headcanon.
As for the corridor, I provided my debunks above, they ignore the broader context of Imperishable Night as a whole. A lot of stuff like character motivation, knowledge, and biases are just flat out ignored despite how important they are.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Honestly this infinite speed shit is ridiculous. The opposition keeps ignoring context in favor of straight up headcanon; Nowhere is it stated that Komachi manipulated the river, we just assume she did. Why? Who knows! We ignore the original Japanese text even if the meaning is more accurate. Why? **** you, that's why!
If we survive this I'm making a discussion rule, no question about it. I've wasted too many hours on this debate.
If we survive this I'm making a discussion rule, no question about it. I've wasted too many hours on this debate.
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"The speed of your boat is also slower than the rest of the shinigami." (PoFV, Eiki's Scenario, vs Komachi)
"The more you pay the ferryman, the shorter the distance. Plotting the curve of this inversely proportional function, we see that the closer to zero the ferryman receives, the closer the distance approaches infinity. Conversely, the more the ferryman is paid, the closer the distance approaches zero." (from the Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red article)
Komachi is one of many Shinigami and one of many ferrymen, all of whom are implied to have the same ability to control its width by quotes such as these. Any of them could've manipulated its width, and that's assuming it had to be manipulated at all. This also does not necessarily mean that the river's width is inherently infinite, just that the Shinigami will make its width bigger and bigger if they're not paid properly.
Also,
"This river has no fixed width. Rather, it is famous for extending to extreme distances under certain circumstances. Because of this, calculating the width of the river was assumed to be impossible." (Bohemian Archive)
This implies the river's width is not inherently infinite, but can merely increase infinitely.
But, you know, again, this also mentions that the river has no fixed width.
Discussion rule or not, I will continue to argue against things that are blatantly wrong and misrepresenting facts.
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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Assuming one of the other Shinigami could've done this is wildly baseless. There's no quote or statement or ANYTHING about another Shinigami having been around, involved, or having reduced the size of the river at any point in WBaWC. Hell, we've never even seen another Shinigami besides Komachi, she's generally the one depicted as upkeeping the river. There's no reason at all the assume that any Shinigami and do this, and once again, WHY would any Shinigami do this? They'd actively be assisting in an invading force entering Gensokyo, this wouldn't fit any of their prerogatives at all, and frankly makes no sense.
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"The more you pay the ferryman, the shorter the distance. Plotting the curve of this inversely proportional function, we see that the closer to zero the ferryman receives, the closer the distance approaches infinity. Conversely, the more the ferryman is paid, the closer the distance approaches zero." (from the Bohemian Archive in Japanese Red article)
This also does not necessarily mean that the river's width is inherently infinite, just that the Shinigami will make its width bigger and bigger if they're not paid properly.
It's even more baseless to assume that they crossed an infinite distance based off of a highly specific interpretation repeatedly contradicted by canon.
This also does not necessarily mean that the river's width is inherently infinite, just that the Shinigami will make its width bigger and bigger if they're not paid properly.
It's even more baseless to assume that they crossed an infinite distance based off of a highly specific interpretation repeatedly contradicted by canon.
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Prom, it was previously agreed by staff that the default state of the river is infinite since souls may try to cross without paying the ferryman. None of the lore or inner workings of the verse regarding the Sanzu River, would function properly if it wasn't at maximum length to deter souls from attempting to pass/escape.
And even then, during the events of WBaWC there was an invasion happening and the beast spirits were escaping when they aren't supposed to be
WHY would the Sanzu River be shortened during a time of emergency if it only helps the invading enemy?
The feat occured during a time where there's no way in Hell that they would have shortened the river, no pun intended.
And even then, during the events of WBaWC there was an invasion happening and the beast spirits were escaping when they aren't supposed to be
WHY would the Sanzu River be shortened during a time of emergency if it only helps the invading enemy?
The feat occured during a time where there's no way in Hell that they would have shortened the river, no pun intended.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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This still doesn't solve the issue of how the WBaWC protagonists straight up say they did not use the ferry. It's also still OOC because of the beast spirit thing. The Ministry of Right and Wrong was aware of the beast spirits (it's why Eiki lets you enter Hell), so assuming they'd let the shinigami lessen the length of the river while they were trying to PREVENT the beast spirits from escaping is... very contradictory.
This is kinda contradicted by the 17.5 statements of the river containing infinite water. Also, this isn't even really a contradiction; It has no fixed width because shinigami manipulate it. It extending is just a consequence of that; If the river is inherently infinite, and is contracted, you'd obviously have to expand it back to infinity again.
Basically, burden of proof still falls on you here. You claim that the river was manipulated or changed in some way during WBaWC, so when did that happen? Are there scans? Is there a statement? We don't just assume things happen unless we have a good reason, and so far no reason has been presented.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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It can also mean that the degree to which a shinigami will lessen the river's width depends on how much you pay them; This interpretation can go both ways. And when Kutaka and Kanako confirm the river just... naturally has an infinite supply of water, I think it's more reasonable to assume that the river itself is infinite and is just reduced depending on how much you pay the shinigami. This is supported by @OverlordDonnelly's point, which is that the river kinda needs to be infinite to do its job in lore; It being easily crossable in its default state defeats the whole point of separating the worlds of living and dead.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Also like
Is it a good idea to introduce the several more infinite speed feats I was thinking of adding? Or would that derail a bit too much? Because characters crossing infinite realms is very, very consistent.
Is it a good idea to introduce the several more infinite speed feats I was thinking of adding? Or would that derail a bit too much? Because characters crossing infinite realms is very, very consistent.
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It's an infinite water supply because you can constantly infinitely extend the river, and thus, the water in the river. It is infinitely and easily replenishable; all that was said is that it's an infinite water supply, not that there is literally an infinite volume of water by default and at all times.
It being finite isn't contradicted either, and in fact, it's the more sensible conclusion to come to. Eiki letting the protags cross the river just supports that it wasn't infinite when they crossed it.
Either way I probably actually shouldn't involve myself here, it's gonna drive me insane and these threads are part of why I left in the first place, so bye again
It being finite isn't contradicted either, and in fact, it's the more sensible conclusion to come to. Eiki letting the protags cross the river just supports that it wasn't infinite when they crossed it.
Either way I probably actually shouldn't involve myself here, it's gonna drive me insane and these threads are part of why I left in the first place, so bye again
ÆONS
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I'm very sorry you feel this way. Please take the time to recover yourself.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Promestein has no obligation to reply here but I do wanna reply to the very last points:
Stretching the river doesn't mean you just... make more water? Since when does spatial manipulation double as creation? All they'd be doing is making the water infinitely more sparse, they wouldn't be adding water. That's not how spacehax work.
Eiki making things easier for the protags also doesn't make sense. Kutaka says she was told by the Yama (Eiki) to "test [you] without mercy", so... that definitely implies she'd be making things harder, not easier.
In any case, don't feel forced to participate here.Ngl I wish I had the ability to just walk out of these threads, would make my life so much easier.
Stretching the river doesn't mean you just... make more water? Since when does spatial manipulation double as creation? All they'd be doing is making the water infinitely more sparse, they wouldn't be adding water. That's not how spacehax work.
Eiki making things easier for the protags also doesn't make sense. Kutaka says she was told by the Yama (Eiki) to "test [you] without mercy", so... that definitely implies she'd be making things harder, not easier.
In any case, don't feel forced to participate here.
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mald seethe cope
Kirbonic_Pikmin
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I don't see how it's the highly specific interpretation, especially not when the river is stated to even contain an infinite amount of water in 17.5? The River is infinite in size when un-altered, if a Shinigami is unpaid, the river size will be decreased. The more they're paid the shorter the ferry ride will be. Once the ferry is finished, the size is reverted for the next passenger.
There is no Shinigami present at all during 17, so thus nobody to be paid to decrease the size of the river. The Shinigami work for the Ministry of Right and Wrong, who are aware of the outbreak of Beast Spirits, and want to prevent their escape. So why would they, under any circumstance, make it EASIER for the Beast Spirits to pass into Gensokyo? "Oh man our enemies are en route to us, lets make it easier for them!".
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How come I didn't get noticed of this. I'm staying neutral.
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Look, as strongly as I disagree with literally everything Promestein has said, she's still entitled to not participate so let's drop this shit until someone brings it up again.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Agreed, yes. I'm not sure if Ovens is still intent on responding though, so maybe we should wait a bit?
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We should just focus on tier 1 things first for this thread. Since that's revolving around the AP rating if the verse should stay at 2-C, or fall into H3-A. The others can be discussed on another thread.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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Well, my points in regard to that still stand. The upgrade/downgrade relies on assuming Otherworlds are all part of the same space-time, when this is heavily contradicted by the series on many occasions.
ÆONS
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In regards to Tier 1, I'm still remaining neutral since I still cannot put my finger for why I'm not completely convinced Touhou really does have a 5-dimensional space-time. It could be me not delving into the matter deeply or just me not knowing enough on it but I do hope someone could miraculously explain why I feel that way.
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Correct, Otherworlds are separate space-time, Miko's senkai is a completely different world with a big moon in it, Kasen's senkai is "sealed" from Gensokyo, Tenshi needing some kinda help to reach hell, even though she's capable of breaking through senkais easily, Gensokyo being stated to be a separate space-time (seperated by a conceptual boundary and it's called an Otherworld), Aya stating that there are other world other than Gensokyo, and the definition of what's world itself.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
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I'll try to track down more specific examples of Otherworlds acting as separate space-times, and if you wanna help you're more than welcome to.
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