Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Not much that i can think of, but some extra confirmation on the solid proof of 2-C (or higher Touhou) and the whole Infinite speed thing. I know both have been done to death but people still get confused. Mainly with the Infinite speed (Kaguya's Infinite Corridor and Sanzu River are two things people may get a tad confused about. Also the Palanquin Ship. Nearly forgot)

But thats just more like insurance, yknow?

2-C will be covered, even though I think what we have now is plenty. I'll just be adding a few backing statements like Tenshi being able to split Heaven and earth with her danmaku, or dragons being able to tear Heaven asunder and cause it to tremble with their more casual showings. Nothing really concrete in the way of feats, it'd be more like using a "can destroy the world" statement to back up a planet level calc.

As for infinite speed, idk if I should roll the backing feats into the immeasurable speed thread (as immeasurable should only be a 'possibly' rating imo) or make a thread before the revisions start in order to add those feats and make a blog shutting down the common "debunks" for infinite speed. Leaning towards the latter for now, ig.

 

[Topaz404]

2-C will be covered, even though I think what we have now is plenty. I'll just be adding a few backing statements like Tenshi being able to split Heaven and earth with her danmaku, or dragons being able to tear Heaven asunder and cause it to tremble with their more casual showings. Nothing really concrete in the way of feats, it'd be more like using a "can destroy the world" statement to back up a planet level calc.

As for infinite speed, idk if I should roll the backing feats into the immeasurable speed thread (as immeasurable should only be a 'possibly' rating imo) or make a thread before the revisions start in order to add those feats and make a blog shutting down the common "debunks" for infinite speed. Leaning towards the latter for now, ig.

Havent you mentioned before theres like the possibility of 2-B/2-A? Dont think Tier 1 Touhou is happening, not for a while anyways (but it would be nice to dream)

As for speed, yeah, go ahead and work on the whole debunks for Infinite before trying to get them to possibly Immeasurable, because with people doubting Infinite (even with solid proof), the Immeasurable debacle is going to be worse. An airtight argument is an argument well done i say

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Havent you mentioned before theres like the possibility of 2-B/2-A? Dont think Tier 1 Touhou is happening, not for a while anyways (but it would be nice to dream)

Yes, but I'm saving that for last. I want to use the 2-B thread as a way to ease the burden of proof on things like characters scaling to the entire cosmology, since trying to explain that AND the existence of higher dimensions AND the existence of higher cosmological structures beyond dimensions is way too much to drop at once. Ideally, 2-B will be used to explain the scaling, as well as act as a comprehensive overview on what Otherworlds are and how they work, which will help with the Low 1-C/High 1-C thread, which will in turn help with the 1-A thread.

 

[Topaz404]

Yes, but I'm saving that for last. I want to use the 2-B thread as a way to ease the burden of proof on things like characters scaling to the entire cosmology, since trying to explain that AND the existence of higher dimensions AND the existence of higher cosmological structures beyond dimensions is way too much to drop at once. Ideally, 2-B will be used to explain the scaling, as well as act as a comprehensive overview on what Otherworlds are and how they work, which will help with the Low 1-C/High 1-C thread, which will in turn help with the 1-A thread.

Your trying to get Touhou to 1-A!?!
Look, i support this verse, and im kinda like that one guy in the peanut gallery that tries as moral support

But that is bold, very bold. But i cant stop you (and i would love to see it so Reimu vs Dr Strange (Marvel Comics) can finally not be a stomp and i can (maybe) enjoy the MU

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Your trying to get Touhou to 1-A!?!
Look, i support this verse, and im kinda like that one guy in the peanut gallery that tries as moral support

But that is bold, very bold. But i cant stop you (and i would love to see it so Reimu vs Dr Strange (Marvel Comics) can finally not be a stomp and i can (maybe) enjoy the MU

It'll be largely based on Ultima's recent tiering revision, should it pass. I can't comment much more on it since the standards aren't set in stone yet, and there's actually a massive section of research I've yet to tackle that will be essential to the 1-A stuff.

 

[Topaz404]

It'll be largely based on Ultima's recent tiering revision, should it pass. I can't comment much more on it since the standards aren't set in stone yet, and there's actually a massive section of research I've yet to tackle that will be essential to the 1-A stuff.

I see, i see. Well, lets hope, because thats going to be fun to see
If i may ask, where can i find the tiering revision thing, so i can watch the madness unfold?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I see, i see. Well, lets hope, because thats going to be fun to see
If i may ask, where can i find the tiering revision thing, so i can watch the madness unfold?

Here. It's a great read if you're a fan of text walls.

 

[Topaz404]

Here. It's a great read if you're a fan of text walls.

Better entertainment then watching paint dry, thats for sure

 

[SomeJJJJ]

What is Hakurei Festival Records??? is it canon or official?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

What is Hakurei Festival Records??? is it canon or official?

where'd you even see that in the revisions
It's a fan doujin that had some comments from ZUN thrown in at the very end. I'm only using ZUN's commentary, so it's a similar situation to something like BAiJR and A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

where'd you even see that in the revisions
It's a fan doujin that had some comments from ZUN thrown in at the very end. I'm only using ZUN's commentary, so it's a similar situation to something like BAiJR and A Beautiful Flower Blooming Violet Every Sixty Years.

BAiJR was a fan doujin too?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

BAiJR was a fan doujin too?

Yep!

 

[Topaz404]

Yknow. I have an opinion i wanna share, but i feel like its too spicy to share (it has something to do with a particular Marisa MU)
Guess right, and you get a cookie

 

[Deidalius]

Yknow. I have an opinion i wanna share, but i feel like its too spicy to share (it has something to do with a particular Marisa MU)
Guess right, and you get a cookie

Marisa wins?

 

[Topaz404]

Marisa wins?

Yeah, im just feeling like complaining about Marisa vs Asriel. Again
Azzy got nothing for Fate Manip lol
And besides, Marisa's fought characters that can screw with timelines, ya know, like the maid?

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Uhh.... Asriel is 2-B and the save/load or more things like that marisa can't resist? probably
Though there was a thread about Asriel vs Utsuho and Utsuho stomped but thats outdated i think

 

[Angelzewolf]

Unironically miss the Touhou vs UT era of vs. Truly fun bathed in toxins.

 

[Deidalius]

Yeah, im just feeling like complaining about Marisa vs Asriel. Again
Azzy got nothing for Fate Manip lol
And besides, Marisa's fought characters that can screw with timelines, ya know, like the maid?

How does fate manipulation counter temporal reload? Does Marisa just make Asriel not use it at all? Like some sort of mind manipulation?

 

[Topaz404]

I mean, with Kirbonic's blog, Marisa was able to beat Yuffie Kirisagi, and Yuffie is 2-A at her own peak. I dont think 2-B would be an issue if Marisa can tango with a 2-A and win out
Hell, with ability cards coming into effect- Marisa can just use Sheep You Want to Count (Subjective Reality) and just.....imagine the whole fight as a dream and Asriel goes bye bye

While yeah, Asriel could erase the timeline and Marisa would most likely die to that, Marisa's just got too much and is more likely to go for a kill.
(dont quote me on this but im pretty sure Acausality Type 4 would mean Azzy's Causality Negation wont work)

But yeah. Im rambling now lul

 

[Topaz404]

How does fate manipulation counter temporal reload? Does Marisa just make Asriel not use it at all? Like some sort of mind manipulation?

Fate Manip would make it more likely for Marisa to go for the kill faster, and seeing how its Passive as well, as long as her Mini-Hakkero is in her hands, or is around her, shes going to be affected about it

Sooooo......Azzy's kinda boned here (heh)

 

[Deidalius]

My prediction for the fight:

 

[Topaz404]

But honestly, i wanna wait see what someone like Fuji thinks about it.
Or someone else. Eh well.

But yeah, in my opinion, Marisa wipes the floor, Mid-High diff

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Small progress update, nearly every CRT has a rough outline finished. There are a couple I want to save for when everything else is written, however (mainly stuff like hax layering and a couple of threads that are just extensions of the bigger threads). Writing out a lot of this stuff has also helped me make a few very funny realizations that I'll keep to myself for now, so it's nice to know there are still groundbreaking discoveries to make this deep into the research process. Only 11 games remain in terms of what needs gameplay footage (I finished WBaWC recently), so main canon is about 95% done.

In terms of secondary canon, I'm still waiting for an opportunity to play Hero Yamada-kun for myself (will have to see if it ever goes on sale, or if one of my oomfs buys it off my wishlist for Christmas). Genso Narratograph is getting translated (same guy who does the CDS translations), but there's no hard timeline on when the finished version will release. Given that there's supposedly an early version of the translation that's already been passed around, I'd say we hopefully don't have to wait too much longer. Hoping it'll be in time for Touhoufest so I can play a session with my oomfies.

Also, this pic goes so hard.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Small progress update, nearly every CRT has a rough outline finished. There are a couple I want to save for when everything else is written, however (mainly stuff like hax layering and a couple of threads that are just extensions of the bigger threads). Writing out a lot of this stuff has also helped me make a few very funny realizations that I'll keep to myself for now, so it's nice to know there are still groundbreaking discoveries to make this deep into the research process. Only 11 games remain in terms of what needs gameplay footage (I finished WBaWC recently), so main canon is about 95% done.

In terms of secondary canon, I'm still waiting for an opportunity to play Hero Yamada-kun for myself (will have to see if it ever goes on sale, or if one of my oomfs buys it off my wishlist for Christmas). Genso Narratograph is getting translated (same guy who does the CDS translations), but there's no hard timeline on when the finished version will release. Given that there's supposedly an early version of the translation that's already been passed around, I'd say we hopefully don't have to wait too much longer. Hoping it'll be in time for Touhoufest so I can play a session with my oomfies

So we won't have to wait too much longer? (Yay!)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So we won't have to wait too much longer? (Yay!)

It'll still be a few months at minimum. I'd say my estimate of May-June 2024 is still accurate.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

I admit that I exaggerate a bit but TikTok's mechanic of having a very small character limits prevents people from making paragraphs. Since they can't write a lot, they just end up saying short phrases and words.

Even when they end up making an argument, they don't back it up with evidence since no one there ever writes links in the comments (Mostly because you have to copy the link and paste it elsewhere since clicking the link doesn't send you to another page) and they can't post images.

Which leaves you with a site where 90% of powerscaling discussions are just this image over and over.

The Wukong one is true tho.

 

[XatorNova]

Yes, but I'm saving that for last. I want to use the 2-B thread as a way to ease the burden of proof on things like characters scaling to the entire cosmology, since trying to explain that AND the existence of higher dimensions AND the existence of higher cosmological structures beyond dimensions is way too much to drop at once. Ideally, 2-B will be used to explain the scaling, as well as act as a comprehensive overview on what Otherworlds are and how they work, which will help with the Low 1-C/High 1-C thread, which will in turn help with the 1-A thread.

out of curiosity, who scales to the cosmology?
if you don't want to reveal it yet, would Flandre rank any close to that? I'm still somewhat inexperienced in Touhou but I am curious if a match-up between her and Alice (Megami Tensei) would be any fair - right now it obviously isn't with Flandre's current 2-C and Alice's current base 1-C (1-A as Archetype)

 

[Topaz404]

I do want to ask something
With the Gods (we take Suwako, for example), whoever they would be fighting would of course see their avatar- and since Gods exist as Abstract Beings, they can create a new avatar at will (as long as they exist with a sufficient amount of faith)

So, if your fighting Suwako, wouldnt you be fighting both the avatar created (what you see) and the abstract, nameless being that can create more avatars and possibly erase you from existence, or just the avatar, the nameless form/abstract being unable to do much?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

out of curiosity, who scales to the cosmology?
if you don't want to reveal it yet, would Flandre rank any close to that? I'm still somewhat inexperienced in Touhou but I am curious if a match-up between her and Alice (Megami Tensei) would be any fair - right now it obviously isn't with Flandre's current 2-C and Alice's current base 1-C (1-A as Archetype)

Anybody who is currently rated at 2-C would scale to the cosmology (whether that be 2-B, Low 1-C, High 1-C, or 1-A). Doremy and Remilia being so low on the scaling chain is a godsend, really.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I do want to ask something
With the Gods (we take Suwako, for example), whoever they would be fighting would of course see their avatar- and since Gods exist as Abstract Beings, they can create a new avatar at will (as long as they exist with a sufficient amount of faith)

So, if your fighting Suwako, wouldnt you be fighting both the avatar created (what you see) and the abstract, nameless being that can create more avatars and possibly erase you from existence, or just the avatar, the nameless form/abstract being unable to do much?

It's a bit more complicated than that. The profiles are currently missing a god's divine spirit key - the divine spirit in this case being the soul or essence of a god that can be divided infinitely. A god can manifest part of their divine spirit mid-combat (as shown with Suwako fighting her own divine spirit, or Okuu summoning a part of Yatagarasu), as well as use the powers of the divine spirit while existing as an avatar (eg; bestowing curses and blessings, or splitting their spirit). So it'd be more accurate to say that you're fighting the god's avatar, plus their omnipresent and abstract "soul".

As for where nameless gods fit, it's hard to know for certain. However, I operate under the assumption that they can only do anything after a god "dies" and is left as nothing but their nameless self with no avatar or divine spirit to speak of.

 

[Topaz404]

Soooo.....would Suwako be able to say- rip you apart on a casual level/use Reality Warping with her Divine Spirit.....orrrr? What kind of powers would be able to manifest with that Spirit?
(probably shouldnt be trying to understand this while trying to explain Touhou cosmology to someone new to the verse to explain why Superman wouldnt be able to notice/interact with Koishi. My brain)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Soooo.....would Suwako be able to say- rip you apart on a casual level/use Reality Warping with her Divine Spirit.....orrrr? What kind of powers would be able to manifest with that Spirit?

The divine spirit key wouldn't be able to use any of the nameless form's powers. Divine spirits are what bestows curses/blessings upon worshipers (with curses being a form of misfortune, which is resistance-negating probability/fate hax, so that's cool) and divine themselves infinitely without losing power, but they don't really have any offensive hax outside of that. Their defensive hax are much better (type 1 AE with 2-B omnipresence and various forms of immortality is a hard combo to beat).

There is, however, an argument to be made for divine spirits getting all the verse powers, which would be really funny.

 

[Topaz404]

The divine spirit key wouldn't be able to use any of the nameless form's powers. Divine spirits are what bestows curses/blessings upon worshipers (with curses being a form of misfortune, which is resistance-negating probability/fate hax, so that's cool) and divine themselves infinitely without losing power, but they don't really have any offensive hax outside of that. Their defensive hax are much better (type 1 AE with 2-B omnipresence and various forms of immortality is a hard combo to beat).

There is, however, an argument to be made for divine spirits getting all the verse powers, which would be really funny.

Hmmmmm, yes, now that would be funny as hell. Hina has suddenly become a lot more scary now lmfao

 

[Shmooply]

Divine spirits when they get every power in the setting but their named avatars are still stronger than them

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Faith scaling wouldn't really apply to divine spirits because they also get empowered by faith lol
also i kinda can't use faith scaling anymore, iykyk

 

[Topaz404]

I mean still, the thought of Hina being able to tap into her Divine Spirit to erase you on a conceptual level is both funny and scary at the same time (if divine spirits do get every power in the verse anyways)

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Why Doremy scaling or why 2-C Chain characters scale to 100+ universes? (Actually)

 

[Shmooply]

Why Doremy scaling or why 2-C Chain characters scale to 100+ universes? (Actually)

Via Doremy being able to manipulate dream souls, with each dream containing exact replicas of the otherworlds and other structures. Also the fact she's stated to be a pretty weak youkai.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Once I get a thread to 90%~ completion, I'll make a sandbox to see how it translates to VSBW's format, mainly to see how good spoiler tabs look. Think I'll keep the trend of having art at the top of every thread, maybe even some music to help set the vibe. Can't claim these revisions are as big as I say they are if they don't have the presentation to match, after all.

Oh yeah, I'm liking how this looks so far. The bullet point format also looks pretty nice for these simple ability addition thread, so I'll stick with that. Also, this will be the only thread with two header images because I felt like merging PoFV and MoF lol

 

[Topaz404]

Oh yeah, I'm liking how this looks so far. The bullet point format also looks pretty nice for these simple ability addition thread, so I'll stick with that. Also, this will be the only thread with two header images because I felt like merging PoFV and MoF lol

God damn, where did you get that ART from!? Never knew the Sanzu and Suwkao/Kanako duking it out could be so stunning!