[Toaru] Massive Revisions for Sogiita Gunha and Level 6 Shift Misaka Mikoto ft. Touma (WIP)

[Churronzon]

Proposal: Gunha should have Self-Destruction added to his P&A.

Reasoning: He stated he can self-destruct.

Proposal: This means Gunha would have possibly Large Mountain level AP with Self-destruction technique(This last-ditch effort should be his strongest move which he was going to use in an attempt to suppress Level 6 Shift Mikoto's Black Sphere)

Reasoning: Misaka 5.3's Black Sphere AP is placed at Large Mountain level and Gunha was planning on using a self-destruct move to suppress it. Let me know if there's a flaw in the scaling logic and/or if you think his self-destruct technique is his currently strongest move(basically telling me to remove the word "should").

Proposal: Gunha should have Energy Projection.

Reasoning: The following image is found in Gunha's profile and it looks like Energy Projection.

Here's how the revision would look like. Let me know if the hyperlinking on Gunha's self-destruct move could be improved.

Edit: This thread used to just be about adding Self-destruction and Energy projection, but then I noticed glaring scaling problems, both already in place and those that would come with this addition.

• Misaka 5.1's lightning should not have the same exact tiering description/placement as 5.3's Black Sphere.
• Gunha's durability with Aurora Guard has a likely in it despite the fact that Misaka's 5.2 "Lightning" that he tanks is described to be at least High 7-A in her profile. Remove the word likely.
• In both profiles, the 5.1 attack that is using the High 7-A lightning calc is being misused for 5.2's materialized AIM that Gunha tanks when the latter should have its own description and tiering.
• In Gunha's durability section, he didn't tank Misaka's lightning, he tanked Misaka's materialized AIM(top right corner of the second page).
• In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.3's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. The 5.3 feat should be rated higher than the 5.2 feat, both in terms of feats and due to the logic of Accelerated Development.
• Gunha's Pressure Creation feat should be added to his AP(and P&A if it's not there already).
• Misaka's Black Lightnings AP should be rated at least as high or the same as Gunha's pressure creation.
• Misaka's Black Lightnings can't have the same exact strength as her Black Sphere since Gunha's pressure creation can suppress the former and provide a path for Touma, but not the latter(which requires self-destruction).
• Misaka's Black Sphere should have a rating of "likely higher" than w/e rating Gunha's self-destruction ends up being.
• Transformation should either be listed in Misaka's P&A or mentioned in the parentheses of her Accelerated Development.
• Misaka should have Limited Morality Manipulation (At 53% of her limit, "her personality will transform into something from another dimension")
• Misaka should have Self-Destruction.

More edit(s):

• Gunha swatting away a 7-C lightning strike might need to be listed in his AP and/or durability section. We also need to determine if it's done with Aurora Guard or not.
• Ollerus' profile should be hyperlinked in Gunha's profile(preferably in the stamina section)
• Rename Energy Beams to AIM Constructs

---

All previous revisions(concerning tiering placements) are being revised again with the information that Misaka's lightning calcs are invalid and should thus be removed.

New proposal: Misaka's Black Sphere AP should be at least High 6-C from tearing off Touma's Imagine Breaker arm when Index's Dragon's Breath, Accelerator's black wings, and Thor's Arc Fusion Blades all couldn't.
Misaka's current sandbox.

Proposal: Touma's Dragons should be at least High 6-C from destroying the Black Sphere.

 

[Aseka]

Proposal: Gunha should have Energy Projection.

Reasoning: The following image is found in Gunha's profile and it looks like Energy Projection.

I think this is just a shockwave from his punch.

 

[Churronzon]

Oh, well it looks like energy in the anime as well to me.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I agree with the energy projection, looks like energy to me. Am somewhat neutral on the self-destruction being High 7-A due to it not actually being shown on-screen and would prefer it to be "Likely Far High" instead. But I am willing to agree with it if enough people agree with it being Possibly High 7-A, tho.

 

[Churronzon]

I was actually being really conservative with that rating. I have other reasons, but it doesn't matter because I'm revising my own revision. Now that you got me to do more than just compare profiles, I'm noticing issues with the current scaling that is already in place in both Gunha and Misaka's profiles.

I don't even know where to start so I'm just going to leave this rough draft comment early as I edit it heavily so you can get an idea of the point I'm trying to make. I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me if I'm making any egregious mistakes or misconceptions as I'm doing so, as it prevents me from wasting a lot of time in the scenario that I'm wrong.

Some stuff is stated multiple times. Apologies in advance as I'm still collecting my thoughts.

---

Shouldn't his self-destruction technique be something that his High 7-A durability can't handle?
Even without a self-destructing technique, he should already have High 7-A AP from restraining the "otherworldly" numerous black lightnings emanating from the black sphere after powering himself up. He had to exert himself and glowed out of his right eye. This technique is not even listed in his AP section. Anime version.

It's even in Gunha's technique section:

• Pressure Creation: Creates a wall of "pressure" by taking a deep breath while in a martial arts stance. The barrier was powerful enough to restrain the lightning bolts generated by Misaka's Level 6 Shift. However, he experiences internal pain when the barriers are struck by a strong enough attack.

I first need to make more revisions for Gunha and Misaka because Misaka 5.2 didn't hit him with the 5.1 lightning in this image(even though there's a lightning streak), like it's currently attributed in Gunha's durability. She hit him with materialized AIM and metal. It's made abundantly clear in the anime what she hit him with.
For those unfamiliar, here's 5.1, 5.2, and 5.3. Wowie, Aeon of Horus. That sounds powerful. Didn't that easily bypass Accelerator's vector field? Then again Kazakiri has AIM wings as well and the same model as Aiwass.

In this page, he explicitly notes the attacks and overall nature of the Black Sphere are superior to Misaka 5.2's Materialized AIM, which should have already been superior to Misaka 5.1's lightning calc. It's also obvious from the fact that Misaka has Accelerated Development.

Summary of things that don't make sense to me in Gunha and Misaka's profiles and should get revisions:

• Misaka 5.1's lightning is given the exact same tiering description/placement as 5.3's Black Sphere.
• Gunha's durability with Aurora Guard has a likely in it despite the fact that Misaka's 5.2 "Lightning" that he tanks is described to be at least High 7-A.
• In both profiles, the 5.1 attack that is using the High 7-A lightning calc is being misused for 5.2's materialized AIM that Gunha tanks when the latter should have its own description and tiering.
• In Gunha's durability section, he didn't tank Misaka's lightning, he tanked Misaka's materialized AIM(top right corner of the second page).
• I don't see a rating for Misaka 5.2's materialized AIM attack in Misaka's profile. I need to know if Misaka 5.2's attack is being attributed as the Multi-City Block Energy Beams that damaged Gunha. If 5.2 has a lower rating than 5.1, that's even worse than having no rating.
• In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.2's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. These two attacks should be the same tier.
• Misaka's Black Lightning AP should be rated at least as high or the same as Gunha's pressure creation.
• Misaka's durability while shrouded by the black sphere should be higher than Gunha's pressure creation.
• Misaka's Black Sphere should have a rating of "likely higher" than w/e rating Gunha's self-destruction ends up being.
• Misaka should have Morality Manipulation (At 53% of her limit, "her personality will transform into something from another dimension")
• Misaka should have Self-Destruction.

I'm definitely favoring the idea of "higher" though for Gunha's self-destruction. After all, we have no idea how successful he would be in suppressing the black sphere, but we'll see.

---

Rough draft sandbox revisions(WIP): Misaka | Gunha

Oh God, how will this affect Touma's dragons.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Huh, once again, ToAru profiles need to be revised... Btw, can you put Misaka's abilities in each of her individual keys in tabbers or smth? To make it more align with profiles nowadays? Also... Ye, with what you said, Gunha probs needs to be High 7-A... Hm, perhaps, he could be rated as At Least 8-A, At Most High 7-A?

 

[Churronzon]

Listen buddy I don't even know what you just said LOL. You want me to put the 5.1, 5.2, and 5.3 abilities in their own tabs?

I don't even know the old format yet, much less the new one, but I'll learn it dw. Can you give me an example of a newer style profile? Or continue this in the PM.

 

[XDragnoir]

I was actually being really conservative with that rating. I have other reasons, but it doesn't matter because I'm revising my own revision. Now that you got me to do more than just compare profiles, I'm noticing issues with the current scaling that is already in place in both Gunha and Misaka's profiles.

I don't even know where to start so I'm just going to leave this rough draft comment early as I edit it heavily so you can get an idea of the point I'm trying to make. I'd appreciate it if anyone can tell me if I'm making any egregious mistakes or misconceptions as I'm doing so, as it prevents me from wasting a lot of time in the scenario that I'm wrong.

Some stuff is stated multiple times. Apologies in advance as I'm still collecting my thoughts.

---

Shouldn't his self-destruction technique be something that his High 7-A durability can't handle?
Even without a self-destructing technique, he should already have High 7-A AP from restraining the "otherworldly" numerous black lightnings emanating from the black sphere after powering himself up. He had to exert himself and glowed out of his right eye. This technique is not even listed in his AP section. Anime version.

It's even in Gunha's technique section:

• Pressure Creation: Creates a wall of "pressure" by taking a deep breath while in a martial arts stance. The barrier was powerful enough to restrain the lightning bolts generated by Misaka's Level 6 Shift. However, he experiences internal pain when the barriers are struck by a strong enough attack.

While i agree that it's worded poorly in his profile + links to an attack done by the AIM Constructs which aren't High 7A (and which yes, are the Energy Beams in Mikoto's profile), this shouldn't really scale to his AP as it looks a lot more like Durability and maybe lifting strength for his powers, not his body.

That means the current link in the profile should be changed and the wording could change a bit too, but no AP changes IMO.

which should have already been superior to Misaka 5.1's lightning calc. It's also obvious from the fact that Misaka has Accelerated Development.

Well, her Iron Sand, AIM Constructs (which as i said before are the energy beams in her profile, i guess the name should be changed) and anything else doesn't scale to her lightning, only the Black Sphere does.

Summary of things that don't make sense to me in Gunha and Misaka's profiles and should get revisions:

• Misaka 5.1's lightning is given the exact same tiering description/placement as 5.3's Black Sphere.
• Gunha's durability with Aurora Guard has a likely in it despite the fact that Misaka's 5.2 "Lightning" that he tanks is described to be at least High 7-A.
• In both profiles, the 5.1 attack that is using the High 7-A lightning calc is being misused for 5.2's materialized AIM that Gunha tanks when the latter should have its own description and tiering.
• In Gunha's durability section, he didn't tank Misaka's lightning, he tanked Misaka's materialized AIM(top right corner of the second page).
• I don't see a rating for Misaka 5.2's materialized AIM attack in Misaka's profile. I need to know if Misaka 5.2's attack is being attributed as the Multi-City Block Energy Beams that damaged Gunha. If 5.2 has a lower rating than 5.1, that's even worse than having no rating.
• In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.2's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. These two attacks should be the same tier.
• Misaka's Black Sphere AP should be rated higher than Gunha's pressure creation.
• Misaka's durability while shrouded by the black sphere should be higher than Gunha's pressure creation.
• Misaka's Black Sphere should have a rating of "likely higher" than w/e rating Gunha's self-destruction ends up being.
• Misaka should have Self-Destruction.
• Misaka should have Morality Manipulation (At 53% of her limit, "her personality will transform into something from another dimension")

I think i answered to most of these above, but i don't get what you mean by "while shrouded by the Black Sphere", did Mikoto ever use it as a barrier or anything?

 

[Churronzon]

While i agree that it's worded poorly in his profile + links to an attack done by the AIM Constructs which aren't High 7A (and which yes, are the Energy Beams in Mikoto's profile), this shouldn't really scale to his AP as it looks a lot more like Durability and maybe lifting strength for his powers, not his body.

That means the current link in the profile should be changed and the wording could change a bit too, but no AP changes IMO.

I guess I still have to learn what does and doesn't qualify as AP. I assume Gunha's pressure creation is listed under Telekinetic Forcefield Creation in the P&A?
Why is Phineas's forcefield considered valid for AP then?

• Attack Potency: At least Athlete level (Has shown athletic characteristics alongside Ferb), possibly Wall level (Should scale to Ferb's feat as he is considered his equal in most fields) | At least Galaxy level with his best-known inventions (Created, just for fun, a robot capable of generating a forcefield surrounding the entire galaxy,

I added a different AP addition to Misaka's sandbox that isn't in my comment above, black lightning from the black sphere.
In Gunha's respect thread, his pressure creation can barely restrain the black lightning emanating from the black sphere.

Well, her Iron Sand, AIM Constructs (which as i said before are the energy beams in her profile, i guess the name should be changed) and anything else doesn't scale to her lightning, only the Black Sphere does.

Why does Black Sphere scale to 5.1 lightning? I don't remember the connection.

I believe 5.2 Materialized AIM is stronger than the 5.1 lightning. This is something we fundamentally disagree on I guess.

If you're right however, I believe Gunha would lose his likely Large Mountain level durability.

I think i answered to most of these above, but i don't get what you mean by "while shrouded by the Black Sphere", did Mikoto ever use it as a barrier or anything?

No I misinterpreted it. For some reason, I thought she was in the middle of it. So it doesn't scale to her durability.

 

[XDragnoir]

I guess I still have to learn what does and doesn't qualify as AP. I assume Gunha's pressure creation is listed under Telekinetic Forcefield Creation in the P&A?
Why is Phineas's forcefield considered valid for AP then?

• Attack Potency: At least Athlete level (Has shown athletic characteristics alongside Ferb), possibly Wall level (Should scale to Ferb's feat as he is considered his equal in most fields) | At least Galaxy level with his best-known inventions (Created, just for fun, a robot capable of generating a forcefield surrounding the entire galaxy,

I don't scale Phineas and Ferb so i don't really know, but it does seem to be a durability feat so you could bring that up in a CRT and remove it from his AP.

I added a different AP addition to Misaka's sandbox that isn't in my comment above, black lightning from the black sphere.
In Gunha's respect thread, his pressure creation can barely restrain the black lightning emanating from the black sphere.

Hmm, i don't see the need to split the black lightning from the black sphere in her profile, the former isn't notable at all and would scale to her other lightning anyway (actually not sure if they would scale to the others, it's possible but i am not sure)

Why does Black Sphere scale to 5.1 lightning? I don't remember the connection.

It is stated to be something beyond just her esper powers and it's her final attack and the most dangerous one, narratively speaking it wouldn't make sense for it to be any weaker than the others.

I believe 5.2 Materialized AIM is stronger than the 5.1 lightning. This is something we fundamentally disagree on I guess.

I mean, do you have anything to back this up? If you do then go ahead and we may get an upgrade here.

If you're right however, I believe Gunha would lose his likely Large Mountain level durability.

As i said before the pressure wall could scale to the Sphere both in Dura and Lifting strength, he also did redirect her lightning with that punch too.

 

[Churronzon]

I don't scale Phineas and Ferb so i don't really know, but it does seem to be a durability feat so you could bring that up in a CRT and remove it from his AP.

It could be an old standard that needs to be updated and removed, yeah.
However, force fields that can be used offensively get placed in AP sections (i.e Evangelion Angels and Telekinetic fist users)
Pressure creation isn't even a force field and Gunha is unequivocally using it offensively vs the black lightning.

Hmm, i don't see the need to split the black lightning from the black sphere in her profile, the former isn't notable at all and would scale to her other lightning anyway (actually not sure if they would scale to the others, it's possible but i am not sure)

It is notable; it's a separate attack that has a separate tier from everything else as it pushed back against Gunha's Pressure Creation.
Gunha can fight the black lightning, but not the black sphere(w/o a self-Destruction technique). That's notable.

You would also need to prove that 5.3 black lightning is the same exact tier as her initial showing of the 5.1 lightning.

It is stated to be something beyond just her esper powers and it's her final attack and the most dangerous one, narratively speaking it wouldn't make sense for it to be any weaker than the others.

Narratively and logically speaking, it makes no sense for the 5.3 Black Sphere to be only as strong as her 5.1 lightning. You might as well remove her Accelerated Development then, it the former is no stronger than the latter.
Narratively speaking, it makes no sense for 5.2 attacks to be weaker than 5.1 attacks. It makes no sense for 5.3 attacks to be weaker than 5.2 attacks.

I mean, do you have anything to back this up? If you do then go ahead and we may get an upgrade here.

Level 6 Shift Misaka is going through Accelerated Development which is improving her stats, her physique, and providing her with new abilities.

I also already have proof from the current profiles without needing to make any revisions. This following feat is labeled likely High 7-A.

• Durability: [...] likely Large Mountain level with Aurora Guard (He tanked Level 6 Shift Mikoto's lightning)

All you have to do is change the name of the attack to AIM Construct.

Additionally, I found something else that I've said that turned out to be wrong, but it actually serves in my favor as the following makes the rest of my arguments more consistent overall.
In a prior comment I said,

• "In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.2's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. These two attacks should be the same tier."

However, they aren't the same tier either. Gunha shrugged off and tanked a hit from 5.2 Misaka while caught off-guard, but was briefly incapacitated by an offscreen hit from Misaka 5.3. Now it makes sense for why he would get incapacitated from one, but not the other.
So a hit from 5.3(that is currently labeled as 8-A) should be placed higher than the hit from 5.2(which is currently labeled as likely High 7-A).

As i said before the pressure wall could scale to the Sphere both in Dura and Lifting strength, he also did redirect her lightning with that punch too.

It can't be used for his durability because the pressure creation doesn't scale to the sphere, it scales to the black lightning. He can't do anything about the sphere without a self-destruction technique.

Redirected which lightning? The weaker lightning from Misaka 5.1 where he hardly needs to exert himself? There's a notable difference in that he struggles to restrain the black lightnings.

 

[XDragnoir]

It could be an old standard that needs to be updated and removed, yeah.
However, force fields that can be used offensively get placed in AP sections (i.e Evangelion Angels and Telekinetic fist users)
Pressure creation isn't even a force field and Gunha is unequivocally using it offensively vs the black lightning.

Well, i guess it's a valid thing then, 8A, H7A with Pressure Creation.

It is notable; it's a separate attack that has a separate tier from everything else as it pushed back against Gunha's Pressure Creation.
Gunha can fight the black lightning, but not the black sphere(w/o a self-Destruction technique). That's notable. You would also need to prove that 5.3 black lightning is the same exact tier as her initial showing of the 5.1 lightning.

Yes but Gunha's pressure creation gets it's tier from them to begin with, so if you don't agree that they scale to H7A they will be 8A scaling to Gunha's normal tier, making them even less notable than before. Also, i think you should be the one trying to prove the black lightning is = the normal lightning since you want to make Gunha scale to H7A from it, i can and will try to do it but like, you brought this up to begin with.

Narratively and logically speaking, it makes no sense for the 5.3 Black Sphere to be only as strong as her 5.1 lightning. You might as well remove her Accelerated Development then, it the former is no stronger than the latter.
Narratively speaking, it makes no sense for 5.2 attacks to be weaker than 5.1 attacks. It makes no sense for 5.3 attacks to be weaker than 5.2 attacks.

First, her Black Sphere scales above her other powers by an unquantifiable amount, this isn't something that is added to profiles most of the time, so no it isn't "only as strong", it is stronger but there isn't a 6C feat or anything like that that the Black Sphere could scale to have it split from her Lightning.

No? Why would AD be removed? That makes no sense.

Her Lightning gets stronger and so does her other powers, but there is no reason to make the other powers (AIM Constructs in this case) scale to the Lightning so they are grouped with her Iron Sand instead for damaging Gunha.

I also already have proof from the current profiles without needing to make any revisions. This following feat is labeled likely High 7-A.

• Durability: [...] likely Large Mountain level with Aurora Guard (He tanked Level 6 Shift Mikoto's lightning)

Which as i said before is linking the wrong scan.

Additionally, I found something else that I've said that turned out to be wrong, but it actually serves in my favor as the following makes the rest of my arguments more consistent overall.
In a prior comment I said,

• "In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.2's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. These two attacks should be the same tier."

However, they aren't the same tier either. Gunha shrugged off and tanked a hit from 5.2 Misaka while caught off-guard, but was briefly incapacitated by an offscreen hit from Misaka 5.3. Now it makes sense for why he would get incapacitated from one, but not the other.
So a hit from 5.3(that is currently labeled as 8-A) should be placed higher than the hit from 5.2(which is currently labeled as likely High 7-A).

Again, the attack that caught him off guard isn't H7A as the AIM Constructs aren't H7A.

It can't be used for his durability because the pressure creation doesn't scale to the sphere, it scales to the black lightning. He can't do anything about the sphere without a self-destruction technique.

Redirected which lightning? The weaker lightning from Misaka 5.1 where he hardly needs to exert himself? There's a notable difference in that he struggles to restrain the black lightnings.

I mean, then let's just remove H7A from Gunha entirely if this Lightning attack doesn't scale to H7A and the Black Lightning also doesn't.

Anyway, does DT know about this thread?

 

[Churronzon]

Well, i guess it's a valid thing then, 8A, H7A with Pressure Creation.

You don't think self-destruction warrants a "higher" at the very least? Do you think it should even be added to his P&A?

Yes but Gunha's pressure creation gets it's tier from them to begin with, so if you don't agree that they scale to H7A they will be 8A scaling to Gunha's normal tier, making them even less notable than before. Also, i think you should be the one trying to prove the black lightning is = the normal lightning since you want to make Gunha scale to H7A from it, i can and will try to do it but like, you brought this up to begin with.

I think you're misunderstanding me; I didn't say Black lightnings/black-sphere don't scale from 5.1 lightnings, in fact the opposite. I'm saying the black lightnings directly scale up from them and are stronger due to both the logic of Accelerated Development, and in terms of feats.
I also absolutely agree his pressure creation is High 7-A. I'm also saying his self-destruction is stronger than his pressure creation.

Mitori and Gensei planned to use the Black Sphere on the Windowless Building when they knew the 5.1 Lightning wasn't enough. Black Sphere also scales higher than Gunha's High 7-A Pressure Creation.

The only aspect that has vague scaling atm is the 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs. This is weaker logic I'll admit, but there's the possibility that the 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs could be somewhat comparable to Kazakiri's AIM wings, if not just stronger than her 5.1 lightning.

First, her Black Sphere scales above her other powers by an unquantifiable amount, this isn't something that is added to profiles most of the time, so no it isn't "only as strong", it is stronger but there isn't a 6C feat or anything like that that the Black Sphere could scale to have it split from her Lightning.

Again, it's not scaling above just her other powers, but the fact that Gunha's High 7-A pressure creation can restrain the black lightnings, but isn't enough to subdue the black sphere. He needs a self-destruction technique to even attempt it.

Even if it's unquantifiable to ascertain by what amount it's increased, that's what the purpose of the "higher" description is for. Not using it leads to worse scaling issues, unless you can prove otherwise.

No? Why would AD be removed? That makes no sense.

I wasn't being serious; I was trying to get a message across.

I mean, then let's just remove H7A from Gunha entirely if this Lightning attack doesn't scale to H7A and the Black Lightning also doesn't.

I was actually only saying that it's weaker relative to black lightning, not weaker relative to her other lightning blasts.

---

Anyways, thoughts on this other Gunha and Misaka scaling that I attempted to put together with your scaling? I'm basically trying to see what your train of thought eventually leads to. Let me know if there's anything I got wrong or if anything is missing.

It makes the following assumptions:

• In agreement with the current scaling from Misaka's profile, the 5.3 Black Sphere(that was again attempted against the Windowless Building after seeing the previous failure) is not only exactly as powerful as 5.1 lightning, it does not even warrant a "higher" rating within the same tier.
• 5.2 AIM Constructs are weaker than 5.1 lightning and don't scale to anything.
• Since there's no strength difference between the 5.1 lightnings, the black lightnings, and the black sphere, even within their own tier, the black lightnings shouldn't be mentioned as a notable attack.
• Gunha is High 7-A with pressure creation.
• Contrary to what his profile currently states, Gunha's pressure creation doesn't scale to his durability and he should not be able to handle his own High 7-A strength.
• Since black lightnings aren't a notable attack, it has exactly the same strength as the black sphere.
• Since black lightnings and black sphere are the exact same strength, Gunha's pressure creation that restrains the black "sphere" is capable of eliminating it altogether.
• Gunha's self-destruction is not a notable technique and thus shouldn't be given a rating.
• Gunha's self-destruction is not stronger than his pressure creation or any other of his other moves.

However, I'm still missing what feat(if any) you'd attribute to his Aurora Guard. I think we'd both agree he couldn't have used it while caught off-guard vs 5.2 AIM Constructs(as it's currently stated in Gunha's profile).

 

[XDragnoir]

You don't think self-destruction warrants a "higher" at the very least? Do you think it should even be added to his P&A?

My bad, i forgot to say something about it in my previous posts.

Yeah i think it should be added and he could get at best a "possibly higher" after the H7A Pressure Creation, as it was a last resort suicidal attack it makes sense for it to be stronger than anything else he has.

I think you're misunderstanding me;

Meh, my bad about this then.

I didn't say Black lightnings/black-sphere don't scale from 5.1 lightnings, in fact the opposite. I'm saying the black lightnings directly scale up from them and are stronger due to both the logic of Accelerated Development, and in terms of feats.
I also absolutely agree his pressure creation is High 7-A.

Yeah, i agree with this, but i will comment more below.

The only aspect that has vague scaling atm is the 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs. This is weaker logic I'll admit, but there's the possibility that the 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs could be somewhat comparable to Kazakiri's AIM wings, if not just stronger than her 5.1 lightning.

Well, they're similar in nature to Kazakiri yeah, but trying to get a tier out of that doesn't work at all.

And i will also say that the the Constructs being H7A or not is hard to say, you see, Gunha doesn't have many fights so there is no actual contradiction in him being H7A everything iirc, but there is nothing actually putting him that high in all stats, his best feat is the Pressure thing which doesn't scale to his body dura and the one time he took something head on it was the Constructs which also don't have a specific place to scale.

Again, it's not scaling above just her other powers, but the fact that Gunha's High 7-A pressure creation can restrain the black lightnings, but isn't enough to subdue the black sphere. He needs a self-destruction technique to even attempt it.

Even if it's unquantifiable to ascertain by what amount it's increased, that's what the purpose of the "higher" description is for. Not using it leads to worse scaling issues, unless you can prove otherwise.

Black Sphere > Pressure Creation > Black Lightning ~ 5.1 Lightning = H7A

Gunha's self destruction is in an unknown position higher than PC.

So yeah, i agree there is a scaling chain with all these attacks but i don't think the higher is needed cause their scaling can be explained in the AP section just like how it is currently for the Black Sphere, otherwise there would be too much info in her tier section.

Anyways, thoughts on this other Gunha and Misaka scaling that I attempted to put together with your scaling? I'm basically trying to see what your train of thought eventually leads to. Let me know if there's anything I got wrong or if anything is missing.

It makes the following assumptions:

• In agreement with the current scaling from Misaka's profile, the 5.3 Black Sphere(that was again attempted against the Windowless Building after seeing the previous failure) is not only exactly as powerful as 5.1 lightning, it does not even warrant a "higher" rating within the same tier.

Again, as said above this is not the case, but this is explained in her AP section as "the strongest attack she showed", the hugher isn't added because that would be too much info on her AP section and it's in the same tier anyway, but yes it does scale much higher than her 5.1 lightning

• 5.2 AIM Constructs are weaker than 5.1 lightning and don't scale to anything.

They scale to Gunha's own dura, which decreases when he isn't aware of the attack, btw so then being H7A would be strange.

• Since there's no strength difference between the 5.1 lightnings, the black lightnings, and the black sphere, even within their own tier, the black lightnings shouldn't be mentioned as a notable attack.

I guess they could be added somewhere, like her AP section.

Currently she has "at least Large Mountain level with Lightnings (About 2 gigatons at 2% of her limit"

I think we could add "Later developed a stronger, black lightning)" just to save up space.

• Gunha is High 7-A with pressure creation.

Yes

• Contrary to what his profile currently states, Gunha's pressure creation doesn't scale to his durability and he should not be able to handle his own High 7-A strength.

Meh, i would like to see DT's opinion about this part, idk what they think of the lightning Gunha redirected.

• Since black lightnings aren't a notable attack, it has exactly the same strength as the black sphere.

No, they scale below it and above the normal lightning, just to make this clear.

• Since black lightnings and black sphere are the exact same strength, Gunha's pressure creation that restrains the black "sphere" is capable of eliminating it altogether.

Ehhhh i didn't really get this one, but as i said the previous point is wrong i think this one is too.

• Gunha's self-destruction is not a notable technique and thus shouldn't be given a rating.

It should, it should.

• Gunha's self-destruction is not stronger than his pressure creation or any other of his other moves.

As i explained at the start, IMO it should be stronger the anything else he has.

However, I'm still missing what feat(if any) you'd attribute to his Aurora Guard. I think we'd both agree he couldn't have used it while caught off-guard vs 5.2 AIM Constructs(as it's currently stated in Gunha's profile).

That's what i want to hear from DT...

 

[DontTalkDT]

Self-destruction for Gunha is fine.
What energy projection is concerned... well, nobody knows how exactly Gunha's stuff works but I think the best theory we have is that this depicts a telekinetic force, like Gunha himself described his Amazing Punch to work. Of course, his theory on how it works is wrong, but it's the only theory on what that is made from that we have.

Misaka 5.1's lightning is given the exact same tiering description/placement as 5.3's Black Sphere.

Why is that a problem if it's stronger than the lightning?

Gunha's durability with Aurora Guard has a likely in it despite the fact that Misaka's 5.2 "Lightning" that he tanks is described to be at least High 7-A in her profile. Remove the word likely.

The lightning that she shot at Gunha and Touma seemed a lot less impressive than the most massive lightning in history she launched at the windowless building tbf. But I'm fine with removing it.

In both profiles, the 5.1 attack that is using the High 7-A lightning calc is being misused for 5.2's materialized AIM that Gunha tanks when the latter should have its own description and tiering.

Sure, I guess. Would just get the iron sand tiering, I guess.

In Gunha's durability section, he didn't tank Misaka's lightning, he tanked Misaka's materialized AIM(top right corner of the second page).

Replace with him knocking away the lightning, I suppose.

In Gunha's durability, Misaka 5.3's offscreen attack that briefly incapacitated Gunha is labeled as only 8-A even though a 5.2 attack that he was caught off guard by and shrugs off is labeled High 7-A. The 5.3 feat should be rated higher than the 5.2 feat, both in terms of feats and due to the logic of Accelerated Development.

Both should be 8-A.

Gunha's Pressure Creation feat should be added to his AP(and P&A if it's not there already).

Is it relevant to his AP reasoning?

Misaka's Black Lightnings AP should be rated at least as high or the same as Gunha's pressure creation.

Misaka's Black Lightnings can't have the same exact strength as her Black Sphere since Gunha's pressure creation can suppress the former and provide a path for Touma, but not the latter(which requires self-destruction).

Can all get lightning scaling, with Gunha suppressing it being another instance of his anti-lightning technique i.e. Aurora Guard.

Misaka's Black Sphere should have a rating of "likely higher" than w/e rating Gunha's self-destruction ends up being.

Since the ratings have an "At least" already that seems unncessary?

Transformation should either be listed in Misaka's P&A or mentioned in the parentheses of her Accelerated Development.

I guess that's fine.

Misaka should have Morality Manipulation (At 53% of her limit, "her personality will transform into something from another dimension")

Honestly not sure whether they really qualifies as personality manipulation. I would argue it's more that her personality is manipulated.

Misaka should have Self-Destruction.

That's ok.

 

[XDragnoir]

The lightning that she shot at Gunha and Touma seemed a lot less impressive than the most massive lightning in history she launched at the windowless building tbf. But I'm fine with removing it.

About that, do you think it would be good to have Aurora Guard as:

At least 7C (should at the very least be equal to her peak in her normal state), possibly H7A (it's unknown if the reduced size would decrease Mikoto's lightning potency that much)

 

[Zensum]

The 5.3 feat should be rated higher than the 5.2 feat, both in terms of feats and due to the logic of Accelerated Development.

I agree. The current wording isn't the best.

at least High 7-A with Lightnings, higher with Black Sphere, much higher as time passes.
imo.

 

[Churronzon]

And i will also say that the the Constructs being H7A or not is hard to say, you see, Gunha doesn't have many fights so there is no actual contradiction in him being H7A everything iirc, but there is nothing actually putting him that high in all stats, his best feat is the Pressure thing which doesn't scale to his body dura and the one time he took something head on it was the Constructs which also don't have a specific place to scale.

I don't see how pressure creation doesn't scale to his durability since he is somehow being hurt by the black lightning attacking it. It's connected to his body and he is able to withstand his pressure creation.

This is also already stated in Gunha's profile.

• Pressure Creation: Creates a wall of "pressure" by taking a deep breath while in a martial arts stance. The barrier was powerful enough to restrain the lightning bolts generated by Misaka's Level 6 Shift. However, he experiences internal pain when the barriers are struck by a strong enough attack.

What energy projection is concerned... well, nobody knows how exactly Gunha's stuff works but I think the best theory we have is that this depicts a telekinetic force, like Gunha himself described his Amazing Punch to work. Of course, his theory on how it works is wrong, but it's the only theory on what that is made from that we have.

Well if telekinetic force is proven wrong, then it seems to me the only thing we have that we can go off of is visuals.

Sure, I guess. Would just get the iron sand tiering, I guess.

I'm going against what I said in my last comment about vague 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs scaling. If Gunha's durability is High-7A from being able to handle his own strength(pressure creation), AIM Constructs would be High-7A from being able to damage and incapacitate him.

Ironically enough, that's what Gunha's current profile already states.

Is it relevant to his AP reasoning?

Absolutely yes; the pressure creation scales directly to "attacks from the Black Sphere" which is at least High 7-A. Pressure creation should thus be High 7-A.

Gunha's durability can handle his own AP that comes from the pressure creation, making it High 7-A as well.

To reiterate, Gunha's durability being comparable to his AP, High 7-A, would mean that the AIM Constructs are High 7-A as well, without needing to scale off the lightning calc or anything else.

Or we could use the "up to" rating since Gunha's durability increases depending on whether he knows an attack is coming or not, which is not tied to his Aurora Guard. I don't know how to format that kind of rating, however. I'd need to look at profiles that use this system for examples.

---

The lightning that she shot at Gunha and Touma seemed a lot less impressive than the most massive lightning in history she launched at the windowless building tbf. But I'm fine with removing it.

That's an option.

Replace with him knocking away the lightning, I suppose.

Or I can do that. So would it be "At least 7-C" from scaling off Misaka's Base lightning strikes?

Do I attribute him no-diffing a 7-C Lightning strike to his Aurora Guard or is it part of his Base AP/durability?

That's another thing I missed; I didn't realize him swatting away the lightning wasn't already in his AP or durability.

---

Both should be 8-A.

With no strength discrepancy within its own tier?

Can all get lightning scaling, with Gunha suppressing it being another instance of his anti-lightning technique i.e. Aurora Guard.

Ok, so we wouldn't call it pressure creation? Would we instead list the High 7-A feat as Aurora Guard? I don't think it really changes any of my arguments, just the name of the technique.

Would we remove pressure creation from Gunha's technique section?

Since the ratings have an "At least" already that seems unncessary?

Yes you're right; this is largely irrelevant.

Honestly not sure whether they really qualifies as personality manipulation. I would argue it's more that her personality is manipulated.

Yeah, it's definitely only Misaka's personality that is getting changed; I didn't mean to imply she can manipulate anyone else's.

The summary description of morality manipulation says that it allows you to manipulate your own morality. I just added a description in how limited it is. I could add the word “Limited” if it makes it clearer.

If I misinterpreted the definition and using it on yourself doesn't qualify for the ability, then I'll drop this addition.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't see how pressure creation doesn't scale to his durability since he is somehow being hurt by the black lightning attacking it. It's connected to his body and he is able to withstand his pressure creation.

Being hurt indirectly =/= Withstanding the full force of the attack directly.

We don't know the mechanics behind his powers so it's impossible to say if the damage he took is from "residual force" or it's equal to the black lightning' AP.

With no strength discrepancy within its own tier?

AIM Constructs > Gunha > L6S Iron Sand > Base Iron Sand

 

[Churronzon]

Being hurt indirectly =/= Withstanding the full force of the attack directly.

My point is that the pressure creation is directly connected to his body. Gunha can withstand his own pressure creation. His AP is comparable to his durability.

 

[Churronzon]

Why is that a problem if it's stronger than the lightning?

Somehow, I missed replying to this. This is the most obvious flaw with the scaling. As I told XDragnoir, 5.3 Black sphere is stronger than 5.1 lightning as seen when Gensei tried to blow up the Windowless Building after stating that the 5.1 lightning wasn’t enough. This also follows the logic of accelerated development.

Black Sphere should be given a description of higher, as Zensum said.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Yeah, it's definitely only Misaka's personality that is getting changed; I didn't mean to imply she can manipulate anyone else's.

The summary description of morality manipulation says that it allows you to manipulate your own morality. I just added a description in how limited it is. I could add the word “Limited” if it makes it clearer.

If I misinterpreted the definition and using it on yourself doesn't qualify for the ability, then I'll drop this addition.

Using it on oneself isn't the problem. Thing is I don't think Misaka is using it on herself. It's technically a result of the entire Level 6 Shift evolution forced upon her by the Misaka Network / Gensei's Mind Control.

So I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to give her an ability like that. Feels kinda like giving a snowman limited heat manipulation for melting.

About that, do you think it would be good to have Aurora Guard as:

At least 7C (should at the very least be equal to her peak in her normal state), possibly H7A (it's unknown if the reduced size would decrease Mikoto's lightning potency that much)

I'm going against what I said in my last comment about vague 5.2/5.3 AIM Constructs scaling. If Gunha's durability is High-7A from being able to handle his own strength(pressure creation), AIM Constructs would be High-7A from being able to damage and incapacitate him.

Ok, so we wouldn't call it pressure creation? Would we instead list the High 7-A feat as Aurora Guard? I don't think it really changes any of my arguments, just the name of the technique.

Would we remove pressure creation from Gunha's technique section?

Hmmmm... I like to think that her regular lightning attacks are in the same ballpark as the large one (although obviously somewhat weaker) and that it's just Gunha's anti-lightning stuff at work, which would get the scaling then.

Then again, what Gunha suppressed via the pressure were the remnants of black lightning that an already conscious again Misaka couldn't control. Not a targeted attack. So one could argue those might be weaker as they are more of a "lightning aura".

Whether or not the pressure creation had aurora guard attributes is also difficult to say. It could physically interact with the lightning, so there is an argument to be made that it is similar.

There are multiple ways to piece this together, as a lot isn't explained, but going for Gunha being full Level 6 Shift level is IMO the wildest one.

Absolutely yes; the pressure creation scales directly to "attacks from the Black Sphere" which is at least High 7-A. Pressure creation should thus be High 7-A.

I really don't think the scaling to the Black Sphere in particular is the case? The pressure did suppress the lightning around it, but that isn't the same as the sphere.

Well if telekinetic force is proven wrong, then it seems to me the only thing we have that we can go off of is visuals.

Tbf the visuals don't tell us if it's energy or a force or whatever. Most of the time his amazing punch is invisible instead. Well, still, I guess since it's just energy projection we can add it.

Gunha's durability can handle his own AP that comes from the pressure creation, making it High 7-A as well.

To reiterate, Gunha's durability being comparable to his AP, High 7-A, would mean that the AIM Constructs are High 7-A as well, without needing to scale off the lightning calc or anything else.

IMO you can't take the knockback from overusing a psychic power as a measure of durability.

With no strength discrepancy within its own tier?

At least 8-A, I guess.

 

[XDragnoir]

There are multiple ways to piece this together, as a lot isn't explained, but going for Gunha being full Level 6 Shift level is IMO the wildest one.

You quoted my post but i am not arguing for this at all...

I think Gunha should be:

AP: At Least 8A, H7A with Pressure Creation
Dura: At Least 8A, H7A with Aurora Guard

 

[Churronzon]

Using it on oneself isn't the problem. Thing is I don't think Misaka is using it on herself. It's technically a result of the entire Level 6 Shift evolution forced upon her by the Misaka Network / Gensei's Mind Control.

Misaka isn't using the Black Sphere either. It's using her. By that logic, we should remove the black sphere and everything past that point of her transformation. It's not part of her skillset, is being forced upon her by the experiment, and she called the power from who knows what Thelemic Abyss-adjacent world.

So I'm just not sure if it's a good idea to give her an ability like that. Feels kinda like giving a snowman limited heat manipulation for melting.

That's a funny metaphor, but not an adequate comparison. Personality manipulation is being done directly through supernatural means; a melting snowman isn't.

Hmmmm... I like to think that her regular lightning attacks are in the same ballpark as the large one (although obviously somewhat weaker) and that it's just Gunha's anti-lightning stuff at work, which would get the scaling then.

So in this scenario, it'd be High 7-A with Aurora Guard? He'd have High 7-A durability with Aurora Guard as well.

Then again, what Gunha suppressed via the pressure were the remnants of black lightning that an already conscious again Misaka couldn't control. Not a targeted attack. So one could argue those might be weaker as they are more of a "lightning aura".

That's not a valid argument. They can't be weaker; black lightnings at bare minimum scale above the regular 5.1 lightning attacks given that he struggles against the former when he didn't struggle at all vs the aforementioned 5.1 lightning. Pressure creation is also Gunha's second strongest move(after self-destruction).

Whether or not the pressure creation had aurora guard attributes is also difficult to say. It could physically interact with the lightning, so there is an argument to be made that it is similar.

I'm fine with attributing his AP and durability to Aurora Guard, but I see it more as an application of his Statistics Amplification.

There are multiple ways to piece this together, as a lot isn't explained, but going for Gunha being full Level 6 Shift level is IMO the wildest one.

Well, whether it's through Aurora Guard, Statistics Amplification, or whatever else, that's where the feats point to since he can restrain black lightnings from the Black Sphere that are stronger than the regular 5.1 versions.

I really don't think the scaling to the Black Sphere in particular is the case? The pressure did suppress the lightning around it, but that isn't the same as the sphere.

In your own words, it's in the same ballpark despite being weaker. Even if that wasn't the case, black lightnings scale above the 5.1 lightning.

IMO you can't take the knockback from overusing a psychic power as a measure of durability.

Gunha is a special case in that his ability is directly tied to his durability and he also is able to directly amplify his own statistics even without Aurora Guard.

He can power his attacks to High 7-A. It's reasonable to conclude that he can do the same to his durability. It's within his skillset.

At least 8-A, I guess.

This idea I pitched might be irrelevant as well actually.

I think Gunha should be:

AP: At Least 8A, H7A with Pressure Creation
Dura: At Least 8A, H7A with Aurora Guard

That sounds good too. I can agree with that.

 

[DontTalkDT]

You quoted my post but i am not arguing for this at all...

I quoted every post concerning the topic.

I think Gunha should be:

AP: At Least 8A, H7A with Pressure Creation
Dura: At Least 8A, H7A with Aurora Guard

I will get to the other answers later, but before that allow me to play devil's advocate.

By which argument would you justify the pressure creation to be ranked much higher than his other techniques? In Aurora Guard's case it's because there is a specific compatibility, somewhat like a resistance, but what about the pressure?

 

[XDragnoir]

By which argument would you justify the pressure creation to be ranked much higher than his other techniques? In Aurora Guard's case it's because there is a specific compatibility, somewhat like a resistance, but what about the pressure?

First cause it's seemingly his 2nd best power after the self-destruction, given the situation he used it;
Second, following he above, we see Gunha put way more effort in that than his other attacks through the battle;
Third, we don't know how his power works so there isn't any reason to scale them to one another so far, like we do with verses where there are UESs.

 

[Churronzon]

On top of XDragnoir's reasons, I meant to say it’s his second strongest on-screen move determined by pure feats. I considered the possibility that he could apply that much power to his Amazing Punches, but it's refuted when we see they don't get any stronger.

The #7 Level 5 of Academy City, Sogiita Gunha, replied with a strong tone, “Hey, hot pot guy, you actually managed to tank ten of my Amazing Punches. Seems like you got guts. As a token of respect, let me show you my more powerful technique.”

Haratani knew the males called Sogiita, Yokosuka, and the nickname “hot pot guy”, but it was too troublesome to remember them as he could only sigh and watch them fight.

“Wh-what!? So it’s coming!? I’m so happy, Sogiita!! Go to helllllllll!!!”

Standing up with a delighted expression, Yokosuka jumped up and rushed at Sogiita. Facing him head-on, Sogiita clenched his fist, and with all his strength, shouted. “Super Amazing Punch!!!”

“It didn’t get any stronnnnnnnngerrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!”

• Toaru Jihanki no Fanfare

In Aurora Guard's case it's because there is a specific compatibility, somewhat like a resistance, but what about the pressure?

It's not confirmed that Aurora Guard even has a super effective modifier or resistance against electric attacks since it's proven that he's not using telekinesis to gather a magnetic field and divert the electric flow. All we can concretely say it does is allow him to interact with and let him punch down electricity that normal methods wouldn't, solely because his delusions allow him to rationalize that he can. For comparison, it's closer to NPI than resistance. You wouldn't say that someone being able to punch a ghost made their punches any stronger, only that it allowed them to interact with them.

Hell, I'd even say Gunha considering himself to be a Ground-type Pokémon is a better example of a resistance to electricity.

That's why I'd personally rather prefer to not attribute his durability to Aurora Guard, but rather give him a Varies, depending on whether he knows an attack is coming or not. However, I'm not dead set on any particular scaling definition yet, which is why I don't care what the "pressure creation" feat or durability is called, so long as it's rated High 7-A.

Has Gunha glowed out of his eye for any other attack?

 

[Churronzon]

Another thing that supports my statement that Aurora Guard doesn't give a resistance to electricity is that Gunha still gets burned when he uses Aurora Guard to smack away Misaka's lightning. All it does is allow him to redirect the lightning.

“Amazing Punch Guard, Guard, Guard!!!”

Sogiita continued to use the mysterious waves to knock the continuous strikes of
electricity down to the ground. As he had declared, he hadn’t fought back against Mikoto.
Besides, it was impossible for him to not be hurt, as it looked like burns were developing
on his body.

• Toaru Jihanki no Fanfare

It's also listed as an application of physics manipulation in Gunha's P&A.

Before people ask why he's burned by Misaka's base form lightning, Gunha gets stronger over time and this takes place before the first season of Railgun, IIRC.

Sogiita Gunha, you brat, you seem to have gotten stronger than before.”

• Toaru Jihanki no Fanfare

Let's ignore the fact that this side-story isn't even written by Kamachi despite being considered canon.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I guess High 7-A pressure is ok for the time being.
(Although Misaka's lightning was supposed to be downgraded a while ago IIRC due to the method not being accepted anymore)

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Don't worry about that, I am attempting to re-calcing the feat, and I should've the results for it uploaded to a user blog soon.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Feat has been calced by me and posted to the evaluation thread. If everything goes well, Misaka in her L6 Shift Key will be 6-C or smth.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Feat has been calced by me and posted to the evaluation thread. If everything goes well, Misaka in her L6 Shift Key will be 6-C or smth.

Yet another proof that IB should have two different tiers.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yet another proof that IB should have two different tiers.

Do you mean the power null itself? Like, I've seen people say IB became stronger post-Othinus, are you talking about that or something else?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And nevermind, L6S Mikoto's lightning can not be calced - as for now. Meaning, she will likely be like her base (but with Likely far higher attached to all of her ratings) or something along those lines.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Ye, should make this clear. This thread should probably be a downgrade thread for Gunha and L6S Mikoto now, tbh. High 7-A feat is invalid since it uses a formula that isn't accepted, can't re-calc it since there is no accepted formula for lightning bolt attacks atm... Now that I think about it, this also might mean Mikoto 7-C Lightning is invalid as well, but idk.

 

[XDragnoir]

Now that I think about it, this also might mean Mikoto 7-C Lightning is invalid as well, but idk.

I think her feat is valid cause we have her voltage as well as irl Lightning to compare to Mikoto.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

Do you mean the power null itself? Like, I've seen people say IB became stronger post-Othinus, are you talking about that or something else?

Yes - because with L6S Mikoto getting buffed to Island level, every character that pushes through the right hand with a "continuous" attack lands in the very same tier. And obviously, none of them comes even close to Othinus and Coronzon smashing IB with "projectile" attacks.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yes - because with L6S Mikoto getting buffed to Island level, every character that pushes through the right hand with a "continuous" attack lands in the very same tier. And obviously, none of them comes even close to Othinus and Coronzon smashing IB with "projectile" attacks.

As the person who did the 6-C calc, I can 100% say that she isn't going to be buffed to 6-C levels. There is no formula that CGMs has accepted, so I can't calc the big-ass lighting bolt she dropped on the windowless building - so it can only get to be At Least 7-C, Likely far higher, no more no less, if Misaka's base lightning feat is fine. And while it is off-topic, you have bought up an interesting point regarding IB - It could block PenDex's Dragon's Breath for a good time and only slightly damaged it, but the instant Touma tried to negate the black sphere, it torn off IB near-instantly, so... going by that logic, you could say Misaka's Black Sphere is superior to the High 6-C Dragon's Breath.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yeah you know what? I think that scaling is valid at the very least as a "possibly", close this thread and do one with that, it would only scale to the Black Sphere tho.

 

[Churronzon]

I could not care less whether the revisions are a downgrade or upgrade. I never knew which it was from the start and I still don't. This thread isn't even just about the tiering, but ability additions and how things generally scale as well. Are all of Misaka's lightnings being downgraded to 8-A like the rest of her skillset or are they being removed entirely? I could do either on this thread and I'm going to assume it's the latter, but good god, how many times am I going to have to revise my revisions.

Now that I think about it, this also might mean Mikoto 7-C Lightning is invalid as well, but idk.

That's what I thought it meant, that all of Misaka's lightning calcs are invalid.

Yeah you know what? I think that scaling is valid at the very least as a "possibly", close this thread and do one with that, it would only scale to the Black Sphere tho.

Alright, I'll scale off Index's Dragon's Breath, Accelerator's black wings, and Thor's Arc Fusion Blades since they're all High 6-C. This change would give Touma's Dragons High 6-C AP as well.
I'm not making another CRT this week; I still have eight ongoing CRTs lol.

Here's the Misaka sandbox.

We're back to figuring out how tf Gunha scales to the Black Sphere.