Toaru revisions, Omnibus edition

[Churronzon]

Sandbox (WIP)​

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Coronzon​

Spoiler

Vibration Manipulation
On top of vibrating her voice, she can transmit messages over large distances by vibrating glass and can likely shatter it as well.
Coronzon used the "vibration of her voice to destroy" a deadly curse.
Self Sustenance Type 1 and Spaceflight (She can survive and fly in space.)
Self-Sustenance (Type 2) (for Qliphah as well)
Coronzon and Qliphah Puzzle 545 are incorporeal demons and likely don't require food with a physical vessel either.
I could also go for giving it a "likely" conditional.
Dimensional Travel and Interdimensional [travel] Range
She can access any realm within the Sephiroth. She escaped World Rejecter's shifted timeline.

Spoiler: Enhanced Elemental Manipulation (Fire, Water, Air, Earth)

Coronzon wields the same four elements that Samuel Mathers does, but hers upscales and are more impressive as the elements she uses are purer, [use the laws of Beriah], and can't be reached by those limited to the surface world(Asiyah), even the Magic Gods who have mastered magic. Pure fire overwhelmed and erased Niang-Niang's Sparks from her Pao Pei attacks.

Moonlight Absorption (Shown here)

Spoiler: Limited Creation

Can create grimoire based recreations of magicians (Shown here), lower demons (Shown here) avatars, and a temple barrier.
She created an avatar for herself and the Aethyr Avatars(listed on her profile).

Spoiler: Limited Power Nullification

Can interfere with and is unaffected by the magic of the Aeons of Isis, Osiris, and Horus, which describes humanity's progress/format of mysticism. "As such she can, for example, prevent others from healing injuries caused by her using spells based on the Christian Son of God".
Can't be killed by miracles reliant on the Sephiroth or Qliphoth since she controls who ascends and descends the tree

Qliphah Puzzle 545 made a confession.

She almost made it sound too matter of fact.

“Most likely, there is nothing in this world capable of truly killing Coronzon.”

Spoiler: Sin manipulation (or Analytical Prediction)

She uses the Qliphothic forces to make people succumb to a devil's whispers. She would use this to get 7 billion people to kill each other.

It's part of her Ceremony.
So she either manipulates people's hearts supernaturally [and]/or has some wild social influencing or analytical prediction.

Magick: Flaming_Sword "higher" attack speed
Continuing from this CRT, Flaming sword should have a speed rating of "higher". [See this comment for more reasons.]

Small intelligence addition
Coronzon has gathered great knowledge in the Abyss

Normal human weakness for secondary vessels and [Resistance to] Sealing for primary vessel​

Coronzon seems to possess normal human weaknesses when possessing anyone but the main vessel she created.

Spoiler: [Limited] Resistance to Sealing

Aleister seals Coronzon
Aleister's seal is unlikely to hold Coronzon.
She breaks out of the seal [after some time].

Spoiler: Abilities postponed for a future CRT

Abilities that have a neutral vote among staff or are unanswered are being postponed.
Life force destruction (Can destroy someone's life force with a roar)
ESP (Shown here)
Clairvoyance (Spies on Aleister from across the globe)

Spoiler: Possible Archetype Manipulation

Coronzon had the Archetype Controller that is listed in Aleister's profile, however it is unknown if she only had this ability due to possessing Aleister's corpse.

Here's a quote about Aleister's Archetype Controller
[Still need to figure out what type of concept manip Archetype Controller is, if it even is CM.]

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Gabriel​

Spoiler

Age (Existed since time immemorial) {Applied}
Non-physical interaction
Angels and demons exist as spiritual energy and should be able to harm each other, exemplified by how Michael defeated Lucifer.
Lucifer/Satan/Beelzebub/whatever for example failed to get a physical body.
Self-Sustenance Types 1 and 2 (Gabriel doesn't have a nose. Incorporeal angels shouldn't need to breathe or eat.)
Danmaku (Sweep spell drops millions of arrows) {Applied}
Credit to Zensum's RT

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Aiwass​

Spoiler: Applied

Type 8 Immortality
His manifestation is ensured by AIM diffusion fields. When Accelerator cuts off the connection to the Misaka Network (which guides them apparently), Aiwass disappears, although it reappears shortly after so it's not only reliant on AIM fields.
Lifeforce Creation and NPI (Created a life force which was described as empty buffer material that contained everything that composed an individual. Moved her essence/soul to a protected phase.)
Aiwass should also be able to harm other energy beings like Coronzon w/o an avatar.
Speed rating
Sub-relativistic as exposed energy (Fought Coronzon).
Flight through the manipulation of an unknown energy
Aiwass has wings.
Unique wings in Toaru let you fly without flapping your wings by emitting a strange force, as seen by Accelerator and Kazakiri.
[Accelerator's platinum wings are compared to Aiwass's.]
This would ofc apply to Accelerator and Kazakiri as well.

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Qliphah Puzzle 545​

Spoiler

Spoiler: Immortality (Types 1, 2, and 3)

Type 1: Same reason as why I'm guessing Telesma angels/demons like Gabriel and Coronzon have it. They will never age as they are spiritual energy. If I'm wrong in this thinking, then I'd need to learn why those two have it.
Type 2: Can keep existing so long as the 22 pathways comprising her soul are intact. Her Qliphoth Physiology in the techniques section covers this already. {Applied}
Type 3: She has regeneration which is already on her profile {Applied}

Spoiler: Redacted

Type 6: She can possess others.

This was a tree anthropomorphized by human knowledge. She was a partial demon
created exclusively as a possession specialist. Her structure was similar yet different to
the humans who corresponded to the tree of life.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 20 Chapter 3 Part 5

Qliphah Puzzle 545 was a possessing demon.

To appear in the surface world on her own, she used an artificial birthing ceremony to
construct a door and pushed her translucent body through that for a forced manifestation.

Type 7: She can exist as Telesma and reform after her physical body is destroyed, which is why she has Low-Godly regen.

Demons normally don’t have a body, so I need a
birthing ritual to appear in the surface world and meet your ridiculous demands. How
many times do I have to explain that?”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 2 Part 3

Spoiler: Resistance to Empathic Manipulation

Nephthys's tears previously caused Qliphah to increase in power which harmed Accelerator who she was contracted to.
Apparently this power is hyperlinked to Statistics Amplification rather than Damage Boost in Nephthys's profile. Whichever it is, Qliphah resists it now.
Descriptions of Nephthys's empathic manipulation.
Qliphah resists Nephthys's tears when she previously couldn't.

Non-physical interaction
Being incorporeal herself, she should be able to harm other beings made of energy similar to Telesma like Coronzon can. I gave additional reasons in Gabriel's justification for NPI.

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Immunity to Life force destruction for Mina Mathers and Samuel Mathers (grimoire ver.):​

They don't possess a life force that can be erased by Coronzon [since they are grimoires].
Mina's Immunity (Lacks a life force to can be destroyed)
Samuel's Immunity [Via being made of tarot cards that are unable to cast magic by refining their life force since they have none]

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Magic Gods​

Spoiler

Reformatting their P&A section by renaming reality warping to phase manipulation and listing what hax it accomplishes.
Example:

• Phase Manipulation, achieving: Law Manipulation (They have full manipulation over the Laws of the world), Time Manipulation, Spatial Manipulation, Teleportation, Matter Manipulation, Energy Manipulation, Elemental Manipulation, Causality Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Sensory Manipulation, Changing the laws of nature, Death Manipulation, Mathematics Manipulation, Durability Negation, etc.

It's especially necessary in Nephthys' profile as none of these abilities are listed in her 3rd key(not even her reality warping) despite her retaining them. It would make it much clearer to see which hax she would lose upon using her one-time use phase manipulation.

Their probability manipulation should also be mentioned that it is passive in their first key (if it's true that this ability upscales from Othinus) as numerous matchups have been running off that logic, seen here:

1. Probably an outdated matchup to boot.
2. Another.
3. Another.
4. Another.

They're basically upscaling from Othinus in her 50/50 key, who has a passive 50% chance of succeeding or failing in her any of her plans/actions.

The reason for why it can only be passive in their first key is that Zombie died to a dog wearing Anti-Magic God technology, unless we plan on adding "can bypass probability manipulation" to the A.A.A's profile as an ability.

Changing the justification for Othinus' "likely planet level durability" in her first key.
She didn't tank her own arrow and instead just regenerated the damage so the justification should instead be that her durability is comparable to her attack potency that crushed Touma's Invisible Thing.

Ability additions

Spoiler: Self-Sustenance Types 1, 2, and [possibly] type 3

(Can traverse the vacuum of space)
They still fight endlessly in their weakest state and should thus have infinite stamina like their first two keys.

There is no food in the Hidden World (as it's a plane of [supposed] nonexistence) or in the bizarre timeline they were exiled to where they can continue their unending combat.
[For context, the bizarre lifeless timeline resets itself every 24 hours so the Magic Gods could actually go all out 24/7.
Edit: [This scan makes their infinite stamina dubious. "Never self-destructing" supports it, but it being called "near" infinite would disqualify type 3. Hence the reason I now propose the "possibly" conditional.

Resurrection (or necromancy) through phase manipulation (Shown here)

Danmaku for Othinus via crossbow spell
Her crossbow fires shots that "ignore the concept of numbers". I assume that's a numerous amount.

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Aleister​

Spoiler: Applied

Exorcism (Attempted to exorcise Coronzon)

MFTL+ attack speed [with Big Bang Bomb] (Crowley's Big Bang Bomb attacks in Planck time, 10^-44 seconds.)

Dimensional Travel and Interdimensional Travel Range (Accessed the Hidden World that Othinus couldn't find or destroy)
Possible Weapon Mastery (Having possibly been trained in MI5, Aleister boasted his proficiency in the use of firearms.)
I add the word possibly since it's unconfirmed whether he was actually in the MI5, which is an allusion to the real life counterpart.

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Misaka Mikoto​

Durability negation (Can attack internal organs by sending powerful EM waves)

Spoiler: Applied

(Level 6 Shift key)​

• Limited Morality Manipulation (At 53% of her limit, "her personality will transform into something from another dimension") I'll just list this in the techniques section
• Transformation (In the parentheses of her accelerated development P&A) {Applied}
• Self-Destruction{Applied}
• Renaming Energy Beams to AIM Constructs as that's what the attacks being used are. {Applied}

Giving her Black Sphere a tiering of "higher"
Her 5.3 black sphere is stronger than her 5.1 lightning, both in terms of implied feats(as it was going to be used in a new attempt to destroy the Windowless Building when her previous lightning couldn't) and due to the logic of Accelerated development. It's also quite literally otherworldly. {Applied}

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Sogiita Gunha​

Spoiler: Applied

• Self-Destruction and give it the tiering of "higher" in his AP section {Applied}
• Energy Projection{Applied}

Rewording one of the justifications for Gunha's durability with Aurora Guard:

1. Lightning is not being thrown at Gunha here (See top right panel on second page); AIM constructs are. {Applied}
2. Removing the "likely" conditional prior to "higher with Aurora Guard" and changing the feat. His stats do increase if he knows an attack is coming, but he hadn't done so vs Misaka's attack as he was caught off-guard. {Applied}

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Fiamma of the Right​

Spoiler

Aura
Fiamma should have "can project a powerful killing intent", like Gabriel does.
Since I think either both or neither of them should have this ability, here's Gabriel's quotes for comparison.
Sense manipulation
Fiamma's senses are linked with Gabriel's. Naturally, this addition applies to Gabriel as well. {Applied for Gabriel}
Deconstruction [through Fairy stake] (Uses Fiamma's specialization in disintegration techniques.)

Spoiler: Information Analysis

Holy Right analyzes the obstacle in order to find its location and the most suitable output to defeat it.

Holy Right needs to know how strong the enemy is in order to know how much power it's required to output. Fiamma didn't know that an orbital strike was bombarding him or where exactly the satellite is located. When Fiamma swings his arm, the Holy Right analyzes the location of the target that Fiamma wants destroyed and uses a suitable output to do so, with narration stating that one of the aspects Fiamma doesn't require is intelligence.

Holy Right attempts to analyze the output necessary to defeat Touma but fails(which is a feat for IB). The important point is that it attempts to analyze Imagine Breaker.

Star creation (Creates oddly-colored stars not found in nature, with a ceremony.)

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Accelerator​

Spoiler

Black/white wings range (Accelerator's black and white wings are at least 100 meters long.) {Applied}

Spoiler: Surface scaling [via vector manipulation]

Here's an illustration from when he fought Kakine.
Anime version.
Funny enough I couldn't find an actual LN quote.

[His ability to regulate gravity would allow him to do this as listed on his profile]

• Gravity Reversal: Accelerator willingly allows gravity to affect him in order to anchor himself onto the planet and can likely modify that at will, allowing for very limited levitation.

He could reflect things unconsciously and doing this only required some simple
measurements. First, he would calculate the minimum amount of force that he needed
(gravity, pressure, radiation, oxygen, heat, voices), then he would formulate an equation
that would let him reflect all other forces aside from that. If he did actually reflect
everything, gravity would lose its grip on him and he’d soar out of the atmosphere.

Weaknesses for "Post-Aiwass" and "Post-Qliphah" keys
As far as I'm aware, there's been no mention that Accelerator solved the battery time limit as of current, so it still exists and should apply to his later keys. Utilizing magic also still causes him to take damage. {Applied}

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Index (John's Pen Mode key)​

Information analysis {Applied}
Index analyzes her own physical injuries and the enemy's attacks to prepare a magic spell that best suits the situation
She analyzed the condition of her own body which had life-threatening wounds, the time it would take for her to die, and prepared a healing spell.
Analyzed Stiyl's Innocentius and prepared an anti-Christian spell.

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Kakine​

(Post-revival key)
Resistance to pain
Let me know if this is redundant with type 2 inorganic physiology. Kakine's recreations of deceased Sisters display no pain when destroyed.

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Kihara Enshuu​

Supersonic reactions upgrade
Kihara Enshuu reacted to Kihara Byouri's supersonic kick while she had her back turned. In Kihara Byouri's profile, it is mentioned that her kick is supersonic, but the very same attack is not mentioned as being supersonic in Kihara Enshuu's speed section. {Applied}

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Touma's Dragons​

Large size; Type 1 I believe. {Applied}
Type 2 Immortality for the Angel Dragon, if not all the dragons. (It can continue fighting after being skeletonized) {Applied}

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Doppelganger​

Spoiler: Applied

Spoiler: Immunity to Soul manipulation

The nature of whether Doppelganger has a soul or not is a moral/ethical dilemma brought up in the story but there is more evidence to suggest that she doesn't.

If she had a soul, her ability would be soul possession, when it was later confirmed that's she's just using "Artificial muscle/mold mix manipulation".
Misaka posits Doppelganger has no soul.
Doppelganger 'realized' she had no soul and resented the scientists who taught her to feel emotions regardless.
Doppelganger again states she has no soul after her death and yet remains in Kuriba's dreams.

If we want to keep it ambiguous, I could add a "possibly" conditional. {Applied}

Enhanced senses (She detects an invisible air ship by analyzing the magnetic disturbance caused by Mikoto's iron sand interfering with solar winds.) {Applied}

(Giant form key)
Large size (Type 1; Her Kaiju is about 60 meters tall.) 約 60m {Applied}

Spoiler: Additional Enhanced senses

She has surveillance cameras spread apart her kaiju linked by mycelium and it acts as eyes and ears, relaying all information to her. {Applied}

また、取り込んだ建造物の監視カメラなどが菌糸で
リンクされて感覚器の代用となっており、全身が
眼であり、耳であり、装甲でもあります。

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Kihara Noukan​

Spoiler

Spoiler: Enhanced senses of a golden retriever, type 0 small size, and Natural Weaponry (Teeth and claws)

Source: bro trust me. {Applied}

Spoiler: [At least Wall] level physicals tiering

Unknown physicals of a dog in preparation for when we figure out what tier Toaru physicals are at.

[Guess the dog is scaling to city block level for injuring Kamisato]
Edit 2: I think DT's thread handled this now, so he's "at least wall level".

Spoiler: Planet level Dog With A.A.A.

The dog killed second key High 1-C Zombie by using a mysterious power transmitted from Aleister through his Anti-Art Attachment.

“That’s that golden retriever’s...A.A.A. was it called?”

“Oh? The thing that killed High Priest and Zombie?”

[...]

That secret of Academy City had completely killed two Magic Gods without World
Rejecter. Since Kamijou Touma’s hand had not killed or eliminated Magic God Othinus,
it was a true exception on the level of Kamisato himself.

[...]

Either way, this changed who was in control. Kihara Noukan was still extraordinary for
heading out to the scene, accurately avoiding the downpour of fireworks-like blasts from
a bullet hell game, and fighting the boss all the while, but it was someone else who had
been supplying him his firepower from behind the scenes. In a way, one could say it was
that person who had killed High Priest and Zombie.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 17 Between the Lines 3

Description when he killed planet level High Priest

Edit: High 1-C Dog is now planet level with a note stating that it requires a link with Aleister to transmit their power/magic.{Applied}

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Kihara Yuiitsu​

Spoiler: High-Mid Regeneration with Sample Shoggoth

She can 'sew' a hand to herself.

She had been pinned to the ground, her precious A.A.A. had been mostly stripped away,
and only the miserable remnants remained of that swimsuit and lab coat woman. A sticky
sound came from the stump of her wrist and something half-liquid and half-string shot
out. They connected to the hand that Kamisato Kakeru had taken back but never truly
reclaimed. The hand was pulled in and sewn on in the blink of an eye.

She regenerated from having her entire body torn apart by Misaka's A.A.A, though this amount of damage exhausts her as she can't continue fighting.

Was everything over for the time being? He was curious whether Kihara Yuiitsu had
survived or not, but he doubted she could continue fighting after taking that tremendous
blast. He needed to remain cautious, but he was pretty sure he had managed to survive
this day at least.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 15 Chapter 4 Part 16

Spoiler: Applied

Giving Yuiitsu's profile her A.A.A. under a new key
Like Misaka and Noukan, Yuiitsu created her own version of the Anti-Art Attachment which is listed in this profile, so I'm looking to add it to Yuiitsu's main profile under a new key. {Applied}
Giving her A.A.A Flight with the use of technical devices
Like the other two A.A.A's, Yuiitsu's has wings and boosters to let her fly. {Applied}

Spoiler: Removing the likely conditional from Yuiitsu's A.A.A speed (Just for Yuiitsu's profile)

Her rocket boosters make her faster. That's the point of them. {Applied}

Durability negation, martial arts, and vibration manipulation {Applied}
It's already in her techniques section but I'm looking to add it to her P&A.
She can kill people by forming bubbles in their veins(caused by shockwaves) even if they block her attacks.
This would of course apply to Kihara Amata as well since she is copying his technique.
Salome would have dura negation added since she copied Yuiitsu's imitation. As noted on Salome's profile, she already has the abilities, "copying martial arts" and vibration manipulation.

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Mugino Shizuri​

Removing her Meltdowner shield durability justification of blocking Misaka's Railgun. It didn't happen. It was conjured up in a dream. The other justification remains still, so no tiering change. {Applied}

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[Unconventional] resistance to mind manipulation for those who have angelic mental structures​

It's currently applied in Anna's profile, but this would additionally apply to Aiwass, Archangel Gabriel, Kazakiri, Coronzon, Accelerator, AIM Burst, [Sakibasu Yuri], Level 6 Shift Misaka, and the Angel Dragon, as they have some form of angelic physiology. (Feat shown here)
[For Esper angels, it's supported by the fact that Aleister disguised the philosophy/religion of Thelema inside Academy City and reaching Level 6 has to do with purifying your soul into that of an angel.]
[Brackets usually indicate I performed an edit there.]

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The Fanta says hi and that they have 60 cumulative calcs or something.

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Redacted stuff:

Spoiler

[Magic Gods]
Resistance to Cosmic Radiation (Shown here)
[Coronzon]

Resistance to Cosmic Radiation​

Contrary to what would happen while possessing Aleister's corpse when exposed to the cosmic radiation of the ionosphere, Coronzon's main vessel resists the effects of extreme temperatures and ionized oxygen+nitrogen when traversing through space.
[Aiwass]
Telepathy
Aiwass doesn't actually have to use a cell phone to talk to Aleister from a long distance.
Incorporeality (Similar to Coronzon, he is just exposed energy while in the human world and lacking a physical avatar)
Unknown speed in the Pure World. We don't know what their speed is in the Pure World nor is Aiwass semi-omnipresent there [seeing as that version can be killed by Curtana's dimension severing slice.]

Spoiler: Cyborgization

She's a cyborg.

Spoiler: Nitrogen manipulation

Kuroyoru's ability is upwards compatible with Accelerator, meaning he can create Bomber Lances on his own if he wants to.

Kuroyoru’s ability to control nitrogen was upwards compatible with the #1’s ability to
control all vectors. In other words, his power could reproduce her power.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 7 Chapter 3 Part 4

Spoiler: Limited Regeneration (Mid-Low)

She 'heals' her avatar by rubbing Cake of Light over her wounds like putty.

Coronzon sprinkled some disinfectant on her arms and legs, but then she took a very
strange action.

Had she called them Cakes of Light?

She crushed one of those weird cakes between her fingertips and rubbed it into her
painful-looking wounds.

“Wait.”

“The Cake of Light is a powerful enough filler for animal essence that it can take the place
of a sacrifice. These are generic containers until you insert the blood, but that is why they
can be used as a barrier to prevent your power from leaking out. Blocking up the collapsed
portion of my bodily microcosm takes top priority. Stopping the bleeding can wait.”

This was apparently the right thing to do. Or Coronzon believed so at least. It was like
rubbing putty on a model or adding a new coat of paint over the old, cracked paint. She
began wrapping new bandages over the crushed cake.

And that meant it was necessary.

There were fresh wounds all over Coronzon’s mostly-naked body and they were seeping
blood.

Magic God Niang-Niang had done this.

But clashing head-on with that monster and only receiving these injuries was a testament
to Coronzon’s great power. Hamazura had no way of knowing, but Crowley had ended up
with half his body burned when he challenged the Magic Gods.

“It is necessary part of descending to the surface world, but managing a flesh avatar is
nothing but a pain.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 3 Part 10

Spoiler: Possibly Type 5 Immortality

According to Kakine's respect thread, Kakine is neither living nor dead, and his existence is similar to a Mobius Strip.

Spoiler: Speed: Possibly at least sub-relativistic

Noukan killed High 1-C Zombie when she was under her spell.

Spoiler: Possibly Regen nuliification (at least Low-Mid, likely higher)

It is unknown whether Coronzon's attack, Aleister's spell, or some other third thing prevented Touma's arm from regenerating itself like it usually does.

His right hand was gone.

Everything past the elbow had disappeared.

[...]

“I do not get it either.” Othinus sighed softly next to his pillow. “Is it because the wound
was cauterized to stop the bleeding, or did Coronzon or Aleister’s attack apply some kind
of special effect? Whatever the case, your right hand is not growing back on its own this
time. ...Of course, I never did know why it was growing back in the past. When I can’t
explain to you why it did what it did, I can’t exactly tell you why things are different this
time.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 2 Part 2

Spoiler: Type 9 Immortality

Aiwass's true form exists in the Pure World which is in the lowest layer of reality and the bottom of the Sephiroth.

“And the peak of that theory was Aiwass. That name doesn’t come from anywhere. It
doesn’t belong to any religious category. ...And this world is formed from the multiple
magic side phases that have been placed on top of the physical laws.” She put her hands
on her hips and looked to the mountain devilishness. “Aiwass is the angel of the
bottommost layer...that is, of the world of pure physical laws. That is why he is Aleister’s
greatest treasure. If he establishes a means of controlling Aiwass and uses that
tremendous power to destroy all of the filters other than Aiwass, only a magicless world
will remain.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 18 Chapter 4 Part 5

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four
regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael’s
power while on UK land. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a
swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would
be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between
worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase...for example, Holy Guardian Angel
Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Reverse Chapter 3 Part 7

“I will now explain what will soon happen here.” The lady in a red leotard and long skirt
made it sound so simple. “First of all, Coronzon will place the Queen Britannia’s mobile
temple at a specific point and attempt to hijack the United Kingdom using the Scottish
system she can access with the three Honours of Scotland and the Stone of Scone. Her
goal is to destroy the world. In the first stage, she will have all seven billion humans kill
each other and she will use that as an opening to descend to the very bottom of the
Sephiroth. Once at the very foundation of the world, she will pour in a massive amount of
power to forcibly destroy it. All of the phases overlap, but the gods of legend are not
supported by that alone. Heaven and hell cannot exist entirely independently, so if the
piece at the base is destroyed, the bottom will fall out.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Between the Lines 3

Spoiler: Self-BFR

Coronzon accidentally BFRs herself into the World Rejecter shifted timeline when she makes a sharp U-turn and possibly breaks some law of relativity. Don't ask me how that works.

“The exiled Magic Gods...? Wait, then this earth must be...!?”

“Hmm.” Despite the groan, the modified mini-China dress girl with pale skin did not
actually seem to give it any thought. “This is a time-shifted place, much like the excess
frames on a film, that Kamisato Kakeru’s World Rejecter exiled us to as a prison, right?
Then did you maybe get caught by some part of relativity? Like how approaching the
speed of light causes the flow of time to slow?”

“For example, if you set out on a long-distance space journey intended to leave the
solar system and then made a U-turn, it’s possible you could have gotten shifted from
your origin point and ended up on the time axis of this earth instead. It would take
miraculous odds for it to happen, though.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 19 Between the Lines 4

Spoiler: Immortality (Types 6 and 7)

[Coronzon] Type 6: As stated on her profile, she can possess other bodies or inanimate objects in order to keep existing in the surface world.
An example is papyrus.

“I was given just the one command from Mathers: Pretend I had been summoned by you,
Aleister Crowley, and then guide you to ruin. I hid within a mountain of papyrus to travel
from northern Africa to England and manipulated the powerful historical side of the
nation more than the mystical side, but while I was granting people’s wishes for fun, I was
bound by a contract. Aleister, he is often overshadowed by you, but Mathers was quite
skilled.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 18 Epilogue

Another example is when she possessed Aleister's corpse.

The sound moved inside the stabbed magician and the being known as Coronzon had a
new avatar. The hole in the chest did not vanish, but that was a convenient location. As
long as no one touched it from above the clothing, no one would notice it was there. And
he stayed holed up in his fortress anyway, so there was little chance of that happening.

He remained on his back and his sprawled out silver hair began moving on its own. It was
not visible because he was lying on top of it, but there was likely a demonic face in that
hair.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 18 Epilogue

It's a useful immortality to have if the alternative for demons is breaking down as an exposed soul in the surface world.

That was Aleister Crowley’s daughter Lilith, but in her current state, she essentially had
her bare soul exposed to the open air. That freed her from original sin, which allowed her
to perform all sorts of miracles, but it was reckless to remain bodiless in the surface of the
four worlds for long. Most ghosts and residual thoughts would break down on their own
given time. Even the angels and demons without bodies of their own would reside in a
vessel of flesh after being guided by a string of text or they could temporarily exist in the
extremely limited bounds of a magic circle. But even those things were not permanent. If
Lilith was not given a container soon, she would disappear. That would waste Holy
Guardian Angel Aiwass’s efforts in saving the unfairly-killed Lilith’s life over the course
of a century.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 2 Part 1

Type 7: She can continue existing as an energy body after she is stripped of her physical vessel.

Coronzon clenched her teeth with her physical body gone and her essence exposed.

(But even in this incomplete state, I can blow away about half the universe. It all works
out in the end as long as that half includes this planet!! For now, I eliminate the obvious
enemy. I just have to think of another way to individually destroy the Sephirah that
survive this!!)

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 17

Spoiler: Immortality (Types 6 and 7) and removing the possibly conditional for Low-Godly regen

[Gabriel] Their Telesma-essence still exists in the world after their physical body is destroyed, so it can reform by drawing in water.

The massive amount of Telesma that was scattered around the area gathered in one spot.

The archangel had been torn apart once by the power of the scientific monsters, but that
had not harmed her essence. If you swung your fist down at the water, it would burst
apart in a splash, but the actual amount of water would not lessen. It was the same as
that.

• Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 12 Part 7

“Misha Kreutzev has begun to move north at high speed!! At the same time, the ice at
the North Pole has begun to rapidly melt!! I have detected a powerful line of Telesma
between the two! A mutual interference between them is clearly being created!!”

“Is she making a new power? ...No, she might be replenishing her physical body,” Stiyl
muttered while frowning.

It's already in Gabriel's profile that it regained its physical body after exploding into energy.

Spoiler: Text Manipulation

She spells out the Enochian language in the air to control the elements.

In response, the demon’s long blonde hair tore through the air like a cruel whip.

Specifically, it was spelling out words on an invisible letter board by connecting the letters
in a single continuous stroke.

By doing that, she spelled out the ancient Enochian language.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 3 Part 1

She creates Qliphah using letters and numbers.

I can create artificial beings like Qliphah Puzzle
545 using nothing more than letters and numbers, so I do not need to mix different bodily
fluids together.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 3 Part 10

Controls the Aethyr Avatars by spelling out text

“By using written text to divide the spiritual territory spoken of by Enoch into a total of
thirty regions, you create a color palette providing easier use of the supernatural. In other
words, you get the Aethyrs. By absorbing the moonlight in her hair over a long period of
time and spelling out the text with that, she is capable of wielding their avatars. Is that
what this is, Great Demon Coronzon!? Indeed, you were originally the evil angel found in
ZAX, the tenth Aethyr!!”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 2 Part 1

The letters written determine which Aethyr Avatars appear.

Angels made of golden hair appeared by bursting up through the thick layer of ice. 2: ARN,
8: ZID, 13: ZIM, 21: ASP, 25: VTI, and more. Their essences were equal, but their nature
was changed by the letters used to define them. Those false angel images lined up in a
long row.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 5

It's implied only angels can see the text spelled out in the 19th Secret Call of Enoch

“The Secret and Unrecorded Call: Thy name is *********. ******************************
******************************.”

The voice from the hair spoke words no human could pronounce.

Researchers could not agree on whether only angels could see that text, if it pointed to all
thirty Aethyrs, and what effect it had.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 21

---

Votes​

Spoiler

Agree:
Ret_of_Guys, Doggo, XDragnoir, Aseka,
DontTalkDT (with likely conditional given for Doppelganger's soul immunity)
Qawsedf234 (Agrees on lots of stuff except for what's listed below and with conditionals on the following: possibly on type 2 self sustenance for Coronzon/Qliphah, possibly on telepathy, possibly on soul immunity. Suggests necromancy instead of resurrection)
[I'm not counting Qawsedf's agree vote on Self-Sustenance type 3 yet since they weren't aware of a scan that could make it dubious and doing so would be in bad faith.]

Disagree: Qawsedf234 (On elements being enhanced, ESP, Resistance to pain, Self sustenance types 1 and 2 for Gabriel, wants more context on Clairvoyance)

Neutral: Qawsedf234 (They want more evidence on Life force destruction and immunity; Misaka's dura neg is either limited or not dura neg and just a property of electricity) DontTalkDT [unsure about Qliphah's NPI, skeptical about self-sustenance (type 3)]

Other (lol): Zensum, GunTish, Accel0305, and XDragnoir argue in favor of passive probability manipulation, DontTalkDT argues against it. Qawsedf234 is fine with keeping it.

 

[Ret_of_Guys]

Good lord I'm not reading that much. Although the ones I did read seem to be fine

But High 1-C dog is funny and I wondered how he wasn't already that.

 

[Churronzon]

Good lord I'm not reading that much.

Understandable.

 

[Doggo]

Agree. But Coronzon's sin manip seems to be death hax. She should also get sound manip via her vibrations


also wait till Fanta makes 1000 calcs lmao

 

[XDragnoir]

Well, I guess i agree with everything here.

 

[Ped2018]

Damn, this is juicy

 

[GunTish]

I'm not sure about High 1-C Noukan since the power comes from Aleister, not himself.

 

[Aseka]

I'm not sure about High 1-C Noukan since the power comes from Aleister, not himself.

H1-C with AAA will work I guess.

 

[Aseka]

Anyway, I agree with everything. Oh, what about Acausality type 4 from this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Coronzon:
Lifeforce is ok.
ESP is ok.
Clairvoyance is ok.
Vibration is ok.
Weird to list for a fundamentally incorporeal being, but self-sustenance and spaceflight are ok.
I don't think type 6 Immortality applies. I think that's for beings who are immortal due to switching bodies. Coronzon isn't immortal due to switching bodies. She just doesn't need a body at all. Likewise don't think type 7: Being incorporeal with ethereal body isn't the same as being undead. Otherwise we would need to give that to every incorporeal character.
Dimensional Travel is ok. Interdimensional Range should be limited, as that's not for attacks, but more for travelling. (and one could debate how much of the Sephiroth is actually physical places, but that's not too important here)
Not sure what is supposed to be added regarding elements. She has the pure elements. I disagree with the notion of giving her Mather's techniques, if that's what this is about, as Mather's doesn't simply wield an inferior version, but purposefully makes use of the impurities. I.e. those techniques are his original idea.
Moonlight absorption should be fine, but would obviously be listed as limited Absorption.
Limited Creation is ok.
Limited Powernull for the Aeon interference is ok. I think listing it as just general powernull should cover this. It's not specifically an anti-regeneration thing i.e. what it's effect is bound to isn't really the potency of the regeneration, but how hard the spell is to negate.
I don't think the regeneration applies? For one, I'm not sure if the Cake of Light actually heals her or just stabilizes her vessel. And then, she needs the Cakes of Light for that, which aren't part of her usual equipment.
Possibly Archetypes is fine.
Just because you can write letters and use them for a magical ritual, I don't think you qualify for text manipulation. Like, the actual manipulation she does on the text is just writing it.
I guess some very limited by wide spread mind manipulation is fine for the sin stuff.
Why would Flaming Sword be "higher"?
Disagree with Self-BFR. That is basically just a speed issue. Specifically, it is just supposed to be an effect of special relativity.
Cosmic Radiation resistance is fine. Sealing resistance should be limited, given how long it took her to get out.

Gabriel:
Age: So, do we just write he's old?
Same immortality issues as with Coronzon, just to a bigger extent as he can't really possess people freely. And I don't think the regeneration thing should go. Without the Telesma (which would be gone if Gabriel is completely erased at a physical/energy level) it is highly questionable if Gabriel could restore its vessel. Hence possibly Low-Godly should stay.
NPI is prooobably fine. Unless it's a thing where they can only really do it in their own phase, which could be possible.
Self-Sustenance is, again, weird, but fine.
Danmaku is fine.

Aiwass:
Type 8 is ok.
While Aiwass exists in the pure world, I'm not sure if Aiwass when summoned still exists there. As in: If he enters the human world, does he really still have a backup in the pure world that would allow him to survive if he is erased completely in the human one? I have my doubts.
Lifeforce and NPI are ok.
I would say we don't know anything about Aiwass in the pure world, period. So Aiwass just shouldn't have a "pure world" version at all until we do. I.e. the profile should only need to cover Aiwass in the human world. Hence no separate speed rating.
Telepathy is ok.
Flight and Incorp. is ok. Although I should say that the incorp is for his true self. Shouldn't appply to his physical appearance, I think. It's no proper vessel, but I think one can probably touch it, somewhat like Gabriel's body.

545:
Immort. Type 1,2 & 3 are ok, but I don't think everyone with possession gets type 6, as mentioned in the other cases. Same as before I also doubt she qualifies as undead.
Empathic Resistance is fine, I suppose. Not sure about the power amp thing, though.
Not sure about the NPI. I'm not sure if it's a species trait and 545 is a special case as artifical demon on top.

Grimoires:
Lifeforce stuff shouldn't just apply to those two, but all Grimoirs. But yes.

Magic Gods:
If we do that, we might just want to make a verse specific P&A page for phase manipulation.
What their probability manipulation is concerned: It's exclusively passive for Othinus. While all MGs should have overcome the omnipotence paradox somehow, it is never specified that they all do so via a passive automatic victory item like Othinus does. They could have other methods, which don't involve probability at all. The reason they even have probability manip is because it should be included in Phase Manip.

Durability justification change for Othinus is ok.
Ok with Self-Sustenance Type 1&2, but scpetical about 3. Yeah, they plan to fight for a while, but I don't think that indicates that they never sleep.
Heat and Radiation resistance is ok, I guess. (really, their durability alone should handle that... but vs debates be weird)
Resurrection and Danmaku is ok.

Aleister:
Exorcism is ok.
Attack speed is ok.
Dimensional Travel is ok. Range likewise should probably be limited to travel.
Weapon Mastery is ok.

Misaka:
Not her only way to negate durability, but yes.
Don't think that qualifies as morality manipulation. It's just a change to her personality.
Transformation... i guess.
Self-Destruction is ok.
AIM is energy name change is ok.
I guess higher is ok. (Honestly, everything is higher once she reaches that point, which is why she has an at least rating)

Gunha:
Both ok.
Although I should say that Misaka's AIM is probably lightning, as AIM is just the subconscious manifestation fo one's ability and Misaka's ability is electricity...

Fiamma:
Aura is ok.
Sense makes sense.
Feel specialization in disintegration techniques alone is too vague, without showings of how it disintegrates. E.g. you can disintegrate something by vaporizing it, but vaporization isn't deconstruction.
Info Ana is fine, if limited.
Star is ok.

Accel:
I would say no to nitrogen. Not because he can't. You could technically give him every type of manipulation that involves matter or energy. As you could most matter or energy manipulators... Or every creator of a galaxy (which we have even a rule against). But for the sake of brevity, it is better to restrict us to listing the applications of vector manip Accel is known to use. So if he ever actually uses nitrogen I'm fine with listing it, but as it stands it makes no more sense than listing Helium Manipulation. He can do it, but it's just one of countless things he could but hasn't shown to manipulate.
Wing Range is ok.
Surface scaling is ok.
Yeah, weaknesses should return, I guess. Probably a remnant from when his keys were angel mode and stuff.

Index:
Is fine.

Kakine:
We know why it's said and I think taking it to metaphysical deathless state is taking things too far.
Should be resistance to pain, not immunity.

Enshuu:
Is ok.

Dragon stuff
Is ok.

Doppelganger:
I snot a cyborg, is an android.
I feel like this should be a "likely" no soul. And Kakine should have a "possibly" no soul, as following the Doppelgangers logic Beatle 05 should have none.
Enhanced senses are ok.
And Lareg Size as well.

Noukan:
Dog stuff is ok.
I think we should just default to dog physicals instead. Like, no scaling will apply to the dog anyway.
I believe we kept Aleister's power out of the profile up until now ('cause outside interference). We could add a note, but then I would say it's planet level, not Tier 1. High Priest wasn't Tier 1 at the fight and Zombie's fight is entirely off-screen and the details unknown. We can't be sure Zombie was killed using exclusively power channeled through the A.A.A.
Similarily, I don't think the speed rating for an off-screen encounter, that could easily be a surprise attack or whatever else, should be added.

Yuiitsu:
Regen is fine.
A.A.A is fine.
flight is ok.
Speed is ok.
Dura Neg, Martial Arts, and Vibrations are ok.

Mugino:
That's ok. We should probably also note that her shield works more by disintegrating stuff than durability in common sense... especially since her disintegration is hax.

Angels:
Hmmmm... idk. I guess Anna indicates that Misaki could probably not control an angel... then again, angel minds are incorporeal, so obviously she couldn't. Heck, Misaki can't control non-humans to begin with. So this could easily be more of a Misaki weakness than an angel strength.

 

[XDragnoir]

I don't think type 6 Immortality applies. I think that's for beings who are immortal due to switching bodies. Coronzon isn't immortal due to switching bodies. She just doesn't need a body at all. Likewise don't think type 7: Being incorporeal with ethereal body isn't the same as being undead. Otherwise we would need to give that to every incorporeal character.

Agree that Type 7 is kinda meh, but type 6 is valid, it just doesn't seem to be combat applicable.

Without the Telesma (which would be gone if Gabriel is completely erased at a physical/energy level) it is highly questionable if Gabriel could restore its vessel. Hence possibly Low-Godly should stay.

This doesn't make much sense given its soul would remain, which is the source of said Telesma (and we know from statements that Angels are quite literally disembodied souls normally so they would obviously be able to create more Telesma while bodyless).

Also, Telesma is a divine/spiritual type of energy, it's not like material energy anyway.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Agree that Type 7 is kinda meh, but type 6 is valid, it just doesn't seem to be combat applicable.

Eh, idk. I don't think she survives via possession as much as that she survives via incorporeality.

This doesn't make much sense given its soul would remain, which is the source of said Telesma (and we know from statements that Angels are quite literally disembodied souls normally so they would obviously be able to create more Telesma while bodyless).

Also, Telesma is a divine/spiritual type of energy, it's not like material energy anyway.

Energy is energy. It's a mana equivalent. Low-Godly requires regeneration from just the non-physical consciousness, soul or similar remaining. So, in ToAru's case, probably from just the soul remaining, as that's the primary metaphysical aspect.

What creating more Telesma is concerned... I'm not sure that's how it works. Like, Gabriel needed to restore its power via water and, notably, Coronzon is supposedly the only one that managed to get herself a vessel all on her own. What I suspect might happen is that, if Gabriel hadn't had that remaining Telesma, he would have returned to the phase of heaven and subsequently not been able to re-manifest in the human world again on his own, hence remaining as an incorporeal entity and not regenerating.

 

[Zensum]

Magic Gods:
If we do that, we might just want to make a verse specific P&A page for phase manipulation.
What their probability manipulation is concerned: It's exclusively passive for Othinus. While all MGs should have overcome the omnipotence paradox somehow, it is never specified that they all do so via a passive automatic victory item like Othinus does. They could have other methods, which don't involve probability at all. The reason they even have probability manip is because it should be included in Phase Manip.

Ehh, True Gremlin's first key should have the passive probability manipulation, control of the infinite possibilities they embody is inherent to a complete Magic God's existence. Gungnir isn't a passive automatic victory item that manipulates probability. Wielding Gungnir just allows 50/50 Othinus to control the power she already has because the Norse path is a mythology where the gods could only wield their full power because they possessed their weapons and where they would lose their power when they lost their weapons, so Gungnir is a prerequisite for Othinus becoming a complete Magic God.

 

[XDragnoir]

Eh, idk. I don't think she survives via possession as much as that she survives via incorporeality.

I mean, does that matter? If you can switch bodies then you can have type 6, I've never seen something like "if you can switch bodies but you don't need to, then you can't have type 6"

Energy is energy

No? What does this even mean? Not all types of energy are the same even IRL, why would Telesma "which is a power accumulated in a different phase" be like the energy we have in our universe? It doesn't even follow our laws of physics.

It's a mana equivalent. Low-Godly requires regeneration from just the non-physical consciousness, soul or similar remaining. So, in ToAru's case, probably from just the soul remaining, as that's the primary metaphysical aspect.

Doesn't matter? Angels and Demons don't have bodies to begin with, they're disembodied souls that can wield Telesma freely, so Gabriel's regen should be very similar to Qlipha's own regen (which we already rate as Low Godly) as both are souls that can make new bodies, with Qlipha needing trash and Gabriel needing telesma

What creating more Telesma is concerned... I'm not sure that's how it works. Like, Gabriel needed to restore its power via water and, notably, Coronzon is supposedly the only one that managed to get herself a vessel all on her own. What I suspect might happen is that, if Gabriel hadn't had that remaining Telesma, he would have returned to the phase of heaven and subsequently not been able to re-manifest in the human world again on his own, hence remaining as an incorporeal entity and not regenerating.

Didn't you just say that Telesma is a mana equivalent? Souls (or in this case, an Archangel's Essence, as stated in OT22) would be able to produce it and just use it to make a new body, making the process Soul > Telesma > Body which is still Low Godly.

Regardless of that, there are 3 things I want to note about what you're saying:

1 - minor detail, but Gabriel didn't need any water to create its body, it only needed water afterwards to restore its power, water was only used as an analogy to how Gabriel's body/essence work

"Her goal was to return her existence to its rightful position. Now that she had started to go off track, she could see nothing but that goal and was giving no thought to how much damage would be done in the process of carrying it out. She simply wished to return. For that reason and that reason alone, the archangel started to move once more.
The massive amount of Telesma that was scattered around the area gathered in one spot.
The archangel had been torn apart once by the power of the scientific monsters, but that had not harmed her essence"

2 - It's good to notice that the only natural descending we saw was with Matters, Angel Fall and the Star of Bethlehem were quite literally anchoring Gabriel's Essence to our world so that's why Gaby couldn't go back and simply wasting telesma wouldn't change it, but it would indeed go back as we know from Coronzon that demons/angels can't stay for long without a vessel or summoning circle in our world.

3 - Coronzon clearly says she is the only demon to do that and I don't remember she ever mentioning angels on the topic of vessels.

 

[XDragnoir]

I guess you can ignore point 1, I misread what you said as Gabriel needing water to create its body, but you were talking about power, mb.

Tho, now i have no idea why brought it up as that has nothing to do with regen.

 

[Aseka]

It doesn't even follow our laws of physics.

Yes, I believe that Telesma can distort reality iirc.

 

[DontTalkDT]

1 - minor detail, but Gabriel didn't need any water to create its body, it only needed water afterwards to restore its power, water was only used as an analogy to how Gabriel's body/essence work

I guess you can ignore point 1, I misread what you said as Gabriel needing water to create its body, but you were talking about power, mb.

Tho, now i have no idea why brought it up as that has nothing to do with regen.

Didn't you just say that Telesma is a mana equivalent? Souls (or in this case, an Archangel's Essence, as stated in OT22) would be able to produce it and just use it to make a new body, making the process Soul > Telesma > Body which is still Low Godly.

The reason I bring it up is that it doesn't appear like Gabriel can just draw arbitrary amounts of Telesma from heaven on his own. He needs water to get more. That means, if you got rid of his Telesma once, there is no saying he could get his hands on enough Telesma to rebuild his body. Or, for that matter, whether or not he wouldn't be transported back to heaven at that point like angels tend to do once nothing binds them to the human world anymore.

I mean, does that matter? If you can switch bodies then you can have type 6, I've never seen something like "if you can switch bodies but you don't need to, then you can't have type 6"

As far as I am aware we don't give every body switcher Type 6. Maybe I'm wrong, idk. I always understood it as the immortality being supposed to come from the body switching.

No? What does this even mean? Not all types of energy are the same even IRL, why would Telesma "which is a power accumulated in a different phase" be like the energy we have in our universe? It doesn't even follow our laws of physics.

Yes, but it's not soul stuff either. Just like regenerating from regular energy, it would be included in High regeneration. Telesma interacts with the physical world (Accel and Kazakiri contained it via an AIM shield for example), but the idea of Low-Godly is that only souls and other completely incorporeal stuff is left.

Doesn't matter? Angels and Demons don't have bodies to begin with, they're disembodied souls that can wield Telesma freely, so Gabriel's regen should be very similar to Qlipha's own regen (which we already rate as Low Godly) as both are souls that can make new bodies, with Qlipha needing trash and Gabriel needing telesma

One could are Qlipha's should not be Low-Godly either, but one key difference is that Gabriel's Telesma is the energy remains of his own body. And regenerating from your bodies remaining energy is included in High regeneration.

2 - It's good to notice that the only natural descending we saw was with Matters, Angel Fall and the Star of Bethlehem were quite literally anchoring Gabriel's Essence to our world so that's why Gaby couldn't go back and simply wasting telesma wouldn't change it, but it would indeed go back as we know from Coronzon that demons/angels can't stay for long without a vessel or summoning circle in our world.

3 - Coronzon clearly says she is the only demon to do that and I don't remember she ever mentioning angels on the topic of vessels.

Don't really understand those two points.

Ehh, True Gremlin's first key should have the passive probability manipulation, control of the infinite possibilities they embody is inherent to a complete Magic God's existence. Gungnir isn't a passive automatic victory item that manipulates probability. Wielding Gungnir just allows 50/50 Othinus to control the power she already has because the Norse path is a mythology where the gods could only wield their full power because they possessed their weapons and where they would lose their power when they lost their weapons, so Gungnir is a prerequisite for Othinus becoming a complete Magic God.

True MGs should all be able to get to just the positive of infinite possibilities, but there is no reason to assume that's passive or probability based.

Other MGs could use non-passive items or spells to control probability only when using their phase powers (others aren't influenced by the 50/50). Or they could have a passive item that solves the omnipotence paradox, but isn't probability based. Like, instead of rolling the dice and manipulating probability to always win, they could use a method that just lets them decide whether they want to win or lose each time. Or they could have a method that eliminates the need for the dice roll completely, like just making the negative possibilities inherently impossible or something. Heck, Budihsm could have transdual "oneness" stuff or whatever. So, there are other ways the MGs from different mythologies could overcome the omnipotence paradox than passive probability manip.

And... no, Gungnir definitely is a passive probability item that works by putting the random gamble involved in using her 50/50 powers in her favour.

His objective was simple: stop Gremlin from creating Gungnir.

Magic God Othinus had obtained frightening power, but that power was too powerful. She could not fully control it herself. Having infinite possibilities sounded good, but it meant she had all positive possibilities and all negative possibilities. In this state, it was impossible to predict whether she would win or lose a game of rock paper scissors with a child.

No matter what she did, the odds of success and failure were always half and half.

To solve that dilemma, she had to twist those even odds to one extreme. To do that, she needed a single lance:

Gungnir.

It's straight up described as winning her rock paper scissors and to twist the odds in her favour. It's not an issue of her being an incomplete god.

 

[XDragnoir]

Yes, but it's not soul stuff either. Just like regenerating from regular energy, it would be included in High regeneration. Telesma interacts with the physical world (Accel and Kazakiri contained it via an AIM shield for example), but the idea of Low-Godly is that only souls and other completely incorporeal stuff is left.

Ehhhh, fair enough in this last part, but we do know that angels/demons themselves are made of Telesma, so it would be spiritual regardless, like, just look at the part where Accel removed Coronzon from her vessel:

This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her. No, that phrasing was inaccurate. With her physical body gone, this Coronzon was just an ordinary demon.

She had no clothing.

Coronzon had been literally stripped bare, so she had her long blonde hair wrapped around her entire body.

Just like Qliphah Puzzle 545, she was a collection of energy similar to Telesma.

One could are Qlipha's should not be Low-Godly either, but one key difference is that Gabriel's Telesma is the energy remains of his own body. And regenerating from your bodies remaining energy is included in High regeneration.

Just because she doesn't create the body herself? Ehhh, like, she would still be a soul that can get a new body even if we don't rate it as low godly, pretty much the same thing with Gabriel so Low Godly doesn't matter for her... with Gabriel it's strange, that much I will agree.

Don't really understand those two points.

Ehhh, I guess these two were tangents, Point 2 was about you saying Gabriel would be sent back to heaven, yes that would happen in normal cases but not in Angel Fall or WW3 as Gabriel was anchored.

Point 3, well, you said that Coronzon was the only one with a vessel so Gabriel wouldn't have one, but Coronzon was explicitly talking about demons there.

 

[Zensum]

True MGs should all be able to get to just the positive of infinite possibilities, but there is no reason to assume that's passive or probability based.

Other MGs could use non-passive items or spells to control probability only when using their phase powers (others aren't influenced by the 50/50). Or they could have a passive item that solves the omnipotence paradox, but isn't probability based. Like, instead of rolling the dice and manipulating probability to always win, they could use a method that just lets them decide whether they want to win or lose each time. Or they could have a method that eliminates the need for the dice roll completely, like just making the negative possibilities inherently impossible or something. Heck, Budihsm could have transdual "oneness" stuff or whatever. So, there are other ways the MGs from different mythologies could overcome the omnipotence paradox than passive probability manip.

And... no, Gungnir definitely is a passive probability item that works by putting the random gamble involved in using her 50/50 powers in her favour.

It's straight up described as winning her rock paper scissors and to twist the odds in her favour. It's not an issue of her being an incomplete god.

All Magic Gods have infinite possibilities and when complete, have full control over their power, 100% success. Their method of reaching 100% success doesn't particularly matter. 50/50 Othinus can't control her power, which is why she cant parse her infinite failure from her infinite success.

“It isn’t that either. You know that. You may be a Magic God, but you are not perfect. Or rather, you are too perfect and that gives you a troublesome characteristic. You know that and that is why you have put together this exaggerated plan to free you from that dilemma.”

“But a Magic God can do anything, right? Does she really need to rely on others?” “Being able to do anything is the problem in and of itself.” Ollerus gave a cynical smile as if commiserating with a colleague. “You often hear talk of ‘infinite possibilities’, but that truly means you have as many negative possibilities as you do positive possibilities.” “?” “This may be a bit hard to understand for someone at the age where you still believe in infinite possibilities. Just think of flipping a coin. The odds of getting heads or tails are 50/50. That is the true identity of ‘infinite possibilities’. Whenever you take an action, you carry both the possibility for success and the possibility for failure. No matter how hard you train, you still have fifty percent odds of losing in a fight to a child. That is what a Magic God is.”

Her dilemma is she has the power of a pure Magic God already, even the quote you posted says so. She just cant control her complete power.
"To solve that dilemma, she had to twist those even odds to one extreme."
The spear itself isn't using a magic ability to twist those odds, that's never said anywhere or in that quote.

“Gremlin and Othinus want to do something major to Academy City, the victors of this age. And so they want to do something about those ridiculous odds. They want her to be able to perfectly wield the power she has. They want her to have 100% odds of victory. A few modifications are needed for that. The preparations for this showed themselves on the surface as the disturbances in the Hawaiian Islands and Baggage City.” “
...Those were nothing more than preparations?”
“Othinus is another way of saying Odin, the head god of Norse mythology. They are likely following that mythology. They are modifying the nature of that god by preparing a spiritual item that symbolizes that god’s nature. ...Norse mythology is a mythology of weapons. The power of the gods is represented by the power of weapons. Keeping that in mind, it is not too hard to predict what Othinus is after.” Ollerus spoke casually even though he was speaking of information that was directly linked to the fate of the world. “The holy spear of Gungnir. A spiritual item that represents Odin’s power as the head god. Most likely, they have been heading around the world in order to put that spiritual item together into its ultimate form.”

The weapon of a Norse god was the power of that god itself. The gods could wield their power because they possessed their weapons. There were stories of gods temporarily losing their powers due to losing their weapon or having it stolen. In other words… A human who created a weapon of the gods and could properly wield its power would theoretically be able to control the very power of that god.

Here we get the full explanation of her dilemma and why Gungnir, which symbolizes Odin, allows her control her own power and and it's not because Gungnir posses automatic victory magic or has the ability to change odds.

Now that it had come to this, the completion of Gungnir did not matter. It was not a spiritual item that amplified a magician’s power. It was nothing more than a tool to control a Magic God’s great power and make it easier to use. Now that Othinus had lost her power as a Magic God, it would not benefit her in any way.

“But none of that ever really mattered.” The eyepatch-wearing girl gave a light shrug. “The lance was nothing more than an item used to complete my position as a Magic God.

It simply doesn't posses that power, nor is it apart of the characteristic's listed, so your first argument doesn't make much sense. Odin and Gungnir together make the complete Magic God.

 

[Churronzon]

Why would Flaming Sword be "higher"?

I went with what was settled in the CRT. It travels down the four worlds and transforms into physical matter in a short timeframe.

The pure energy would rush toward the target even as it rapidly transformed into physical
matter. Much like a self-forging warhead that could easily pierce tank armor using the
metal arrowheads formed by its own explosion.

The magician Aleister Crowley had described it as a mass of energy that could sever the
bonds of the target. As a symbol, it was like lightning that zigzagged on the way to its
target.

No spell could be more useful to the Great Demon who was stationed to protect the top
three Sephirah and who existed to obstruct all bonds and tear the world apart.

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe
him in thy power.”

Narration makes note of its speed comparative to at least Aleister's in that they could not react after Flaming Sword is released.

“Babalon, Great Mother of Knowledge, reveal your scarlet light!!”

Aleister roared, but it was too slow.

At this rate, she would be broken.

Just then, baby Lilith moved her small hand to draw a circle in the air.

But that made no sense.

Given the comparative speeds, it was too late to move your hand after Magick:
Flaming_Sword had already been released. Nevertheless, it worked.

Consistency fell apart. Causality was ignored.

In other words, it was a miracle.

With a sound like a saw’s teeth bending, the tip of the Magick: Flaming_Sword was
twisted off course. It was caught by the shield-like circle Lilith had drawn, it spun around,
and it was trapped in a never-ending circuit.

Aleister’s group had been saved by this unnatural phenomenon, but there was no
happiness on the silver girl’s face.

Aleister is currently sub-rel for being able to keep up with Coronzon, but he could not keep up with Magick: Flaming_Sword. Lilith needed to save them.

Aiwass:
Type 8 is ok.
While Aiwass exists in the pure world, I'm not sure if Aiwass when summoned still exists there. As in: If he enters the human world, does he really still have a backup in the pure world that would allow him to survive if he is erased completely in the human one? I have my doubts.

Well Aiwass has semi omnipresence in the human world, but can still be killed by Curtana since it lurks in the Pure World.

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four
regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael’s
power while on UK land. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a
swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would
be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between
worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase...for example, Holy Guardian Angel
Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

LAS once told me that Aiwass's Low-Godly regen used to essentially be type 9, until the Low-Godly regen definition changed.

P sure if Aiwass doesn't have type 9, then they'd have type 4 from reappearing either in the Pure World or in the human world(after a hundred thousand years) after being destroyed, but I'd have to think on it more.

“This is the same. I may not be a being that should be a part of this dimension’s history.
It seems the man known as Aleister is persistent in his desire to use me, but it is no
problem to me if his plan suffers a major setback. It may take ten thousand years or one
hundred thousand years, but I will have another opportunity to asbuAPPEARoagbv...I
mean, appear. Even that is of little value to me.”

Lifeforce and NPI are ok.
I would say we don't know anything about Aiwass in the pure world, period. So Aiwass just shouldn't have a "pure world" version at all until we do. I.e. the profile should only need to cover Aiwass in the human world. Hence no separate speed rating.
Telepathy is ok.
Flight and Incorp. is ok. Although I should say that the incorp is for his true self. Shouldn't appply to his physical appearance, I think. It's no proper vessel, but I think one can probably touch it, somewhat like Gabriel's body.

The exposed energy manifestation still absolutely warrants incorporeality and a speed rating since it's completely separate from its dependence on AIM, which is why it can fight in space where there isn't any.
Incorporeality is also already stated in Aiwass's possession technique.

Aiwass can manifest itself on the world without using an avatar, though it's greatly weakened and limited to a vulnerable energy body that Coronzon compared to a walking pile of organs.

Not sure what is supposed to be added regarding elements. She has the pure elements.

It's in her techniques section, but Coronzon doesn't have elemental or earth manipulation in her P&A. I'm also looking to add the word enhanced prior to elemental manipulation with a description and feat. You can see what it looks like in the sandbox.

I disagree with the notion of giving her Mather's techniques, if that's what this is about, as Mather's doesn't simply wield an inferior version, but purposefully makes use of the impurities. I.e. those techniques are his original idea.

That's not what I'm doin.
I'm well aware Coronzon doesn't have the techniques of human magic.

“Coronzon has gathered great knowledge in the depths of the abyss, but she also seems
interested in the human techniques that people like Mathers and I have developed. Look
at this.”

I also added Coronzon's knowledge of the Abyss to her intelligence section. I'll add it to the OP.

Age: So, do we just write he's old?

Another profile just listed it as immemorial. I could also write "existed since time immemorial" as that's the canon explanation, verbatim.

I don't think the regeneration applies? For one, I'm not sure if the Cake of Light actually heals her or just stabilizes her vessel.

Could you explain the difference? She's still patching up wounds with it. An 18th century doctor would consider her good as new.

You're right in that it does something spiritually as well, but I didn't know how to quantify it. For example, wtf does this mean, Coronzon.

“Take this chance to fill your stomach. Four-legged animals are fire, fish are water, birds
are wind, and snakes or bugs are earth. You should refuel on Salamander, the essence of
fire.”

And then, she needs the Cakes of Light for that, which aren't part of her usual equipment.

Cake of Light is quite easy to make. Any trinity of fat, protein, and carbs would work and her Queen Britannia has the ingredients which is in her optional equipment. She didn't even need to add menstrual blood to it!

545:
Immort. Type 1,2 & 3 are ok, but I don't think everyone with possession gets type 6, as mentioned in the other cases. Same as before I also doubt she qualifies as undead.
Empathic Resistance is fine, I suppose. Not sure about the power amp thing, though.
Not sure about the NPI. I'm not sure if it's a species trait and 545 is a special case as artifical demon on top.

Ironically, I expected the empathic resistance to be the dubious one as the damage amp is what was harming Accelerator. The magic boost just happens to work by influencing emotions.

Magic Gods:
If we do that, we might just want to make a verse specific P&A page for phase manipulation.
What their probability manipulation is concerned: It's exclusively passive for Othinus. While all MGs should have overcome the omnipotence paradox somehow, it is never specified that they all do so via a passive automatic victory item like Othinus does. They could have other methods, which don't involve probability at all. The reason they even have probability manip is because it should be included in Phase Manip.

Agreed(well actually moreso neutral), although I'm not at all interested in making the page... I don't even know what I'd put in it, so until someone decides to make such a page, I'll just revise it as it appears in the sandbox and rescind the passive probability manipulation for True MGs unless people are more in favor of Zensum's proposal.

Durability justification change for Othinus is ok.
Ok with Self-Sustenance Type 1&2, but scpetical about 3. Yeah, they plan to fight for a while, but I don't think that indicates that they never sleep.
Heat and Radiation resistance is ok, I guess. (really, their durability alone should handle that... but vs debates be weird)
Resurrection and Danmaku is ok.

For self-sustenance, I think I forgot to mention that their first two keys need it since they have infinite stamina listed on their profiles, even if their 3rd key can't have it with a possibly conditional.
But it's pretty funny. Imagine one tries to sleep and the rest destroy the planet

Mugino:
That's ok. We should probably also note that her shield works more by disintegrating stuff than durability in common sense... especially since her disintegration is hax.

So if it negates conventional durability wouldn't that be listed in the AP or P&A section? Would it be durability negation through matter manipulation or something adjacent?

It was a high-speed particle-wave cannon that could tear through any matter by ignoring quantum theory and forcibly firing electrons without transforming them into particles or a wave first.

• Toaru Anbu no Item Prologue

Doppelganger:
I snot a cyborg, is an android.
I feel like this should be a "likely" no soul. And Kakine should have a "possibly" no soul, as following the Doppelgangers logic Beatle 05 should have none.
Enhanced senses are ok.
And Lareg Size as well

TIL
Fine with the soul stuff

I think we should just default to dog physicals instead. Like, no scaling will apply to the dog anyway

Sorry, could you be specific. I don't know what tier anime dog physicals are lol.
Unfortunately, the scaling does apply as Kamisato is currently 8-B and they gravely injured each other...

Kakine:
We know why it's said and I think taking it to metaphysical deathless state is taking things too far.

The malicious portion of Kakine that appeared in NT6 doesn't even exist, and I don't mean he's irrelevant or is residing at the bottom of the ocean. I mean he stopped existing and yet has a chance of returning anyways. But sure we can continue ignoring his metaphysical existence.

“There had to have been a lot of different things that made up the whole of Kakine
Teitoku. And a lot of those things would normally be invisible due to the great
concentration of the whole. But when the network became isolated, things not normally
seen rose to the surface. Like the gum syrup built up at the bottom of an iced coffee
being scooped out.”

“There would have been the cowardly side of you, the short tempered side of you, the
vain side of you...and the kind side of you. But who would have thought it would be this
form of the #2 that would wrest control away from the rest?”

The desire to protect someone had won out over the desire to kill someone.

The desire to create something had won out over the desire to destroy something.

The desire to stop a fight had won out over the desire to continue a fight.

“I take back what I said,” said Accelerator without hesitation. That was something he did
not often say. “Academy City’s #2 esper power of Dark Matter is one hell of a power. It
was wasted on the likes of you. And it was clearly too much for you to control.”

“Ah...ah...”

“Come to think of it,” added Mugino Shizuri with a puzzled look. “Do we have any proof
that this one was actually the core? The #2’s mind was scattered over the system, and
this one was the closest to the surface. But nothing says what showed itself on the
surface was Kakine Teitoku’s true nature. Weren’t we just battling the very outer layer
of his mind this whole time? Then again, even just that was no easy task, so I guess the
#2 really is no normal person. ...Oh, and make no mistake. I wasn’t complimenting you
when I said that. I was talking about the real one.”

[...]

A portion of the spears broke and the destruction continued in a chain reaction.
Everything that made up the thing that had been Kakine noisily crumbled. Just like a
child grew into an adult and just like an adult grew into a parent, that giant system grew
into something more refined by eliminating the immature portions that remained even
in the core of the personality.

“I...I’m dis...I’m disappearing? I...I am...Academy City’s #2...no, I went beyond that...

Why is this happing...for such a ridiculous reason?”

“There will probably be nothing left to prove you were ever here,” whispered Accelerator.

That someone who was continuing to collapse clearly twitched when he heard that.

“Even if a massive amount of data is left concerning Kakine Teitoku, that data will not
be referring to you.”

Those were his words.

Those were the words the living could pass onto the dead who would disappear from
this world.

“No matter how much I split apart or how much I cut off, I continue to be Kakine
Teitoku. When I detected that Fremea Seivelun was being led here, the almost 50 insect-
sized versions of myself that had split off all decided independently to come here and
search for any danger. And even at that size, cutting a cord is not difficult.”

Then again, thoughtlessly splitting himself apart like that presented a risk of the
malicious portion of Kakine Teitoku appearing concentrated in a single independent
piece.

Should be resistance to pain, not immunity.

Gotcha

 

[DontTalkDT]

Ehhhh, fair enough in this last part, but we do know that angels/demons themselves are made of Telesma, so it would be spiritual regardless, like, just look at the part where Accel removed Coronzon from her vessel:

This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her. No, that phrasing was inaccurate. With her physical body gone, this Coronzon was just an ordinary demon.

She had no clothing.

Coronzon had been literally stripped bare, so she had her long blonde hair wrapped around her entire body.

Just like Qliphah Puzzle 545, she was a collection of energy similar to Telesma.

I think that was to say their remaining "body" on the human plane is made from Telesma, not that their soul is made out of it. Like, as said, Telesma is an energy that cane be physically interacted with.

Just because she doesn't create the body herself? Ehhh, like, she would still be a soul that can get a new body even if we don't rate it as low godly, pretty much the same thing with Gabriel so Low Godly doesn't matter for her... with Gabriel it's strange, that much I will agree.

Yeah, like, I'm somewhat fine with having it for Qliphah because she reforms her body from a material that is readily available at all times. So even if completely erased in matter and energy, she could in practice reform (even if it stretches the definition). For Gabriel, the only Telemsa that would be around under normal circumstances is his own, so he might be relatively helpless under the same circumstances.

Ehhh, I guess these two were tangents, Point 2 was about you saying Gabriel would be sent back to heaven, yes that would happen in normal cases but not in Angel Fall or WW3 as Gabriel was anchored.

Point 3, well, you said that Coronzon was the only one with a vessel so Gabriel wouldn't have one, but Coronzon was explicitly talking about demons there.

Ah, I see. Yeah, I suppose Gabriel might not be send back if anchored, especially in the case of Angel Fall.

True regarding Coronzon talking about demons, although I would guess it would be similar for angels. I mean, look how hard it is for Aiwass and angels and demons are kinda two sides of the same coin at that.

All Magic Gods have infinite possibilities and when complete, have full control over their power, 100% success. Their method of reaching 100% success doesn't particularly matter.

Gonna stop you right there. It absolutely does matter, because they only need 100% regarding their reality warping (i.e. phase manipulation) powers (other actions aren't impacted by the 50/50 thing, as we see with Othinus). And to just have 100% success when using their phase manipulation, they don't necessarily need to use probability manipulation, but could also use other methods to guarantee success which we don't know about. If they use probability manipulation, it could be that they use a method that exclusively manipulates the probability involved in their phase manipulation. And if they use probability manipulation that more generally manipulates probability, it could still easily not be passive but exclusively used when they use phase manipulation.

Her dilemma is she has the power of a pure Magic God already, even the quote you posted says so. She just cant control her complete power.
"To solve that dilemma, she had to twist those even odds to one extreme."
The spear itself isn't using a magic ability to twist those odds, that's never said anywhere or in that quote.


Here we get the full explanation of her dilemma and why Gungnir, which symbolizes Odin, allows her control her own power and and it's not because Gungnir posses automatic victory magic or has the ability to change odds.


It simply doesn't posses that power, nor is it apart of the characteristic's listed, so your first argument doesn't make much sense. Odin and Gungnir together make the complete Magic God.

That sounds like what you are arguing is rather that Othinus doesn't even manipulate probability, but just helps her control her ability? But I don't think that was what you want to argue, is it?

To be clear: It nowhere says Gungnir has no supernatural effect on Othinus. It's a tool that is meant to control a gods power and completes their standing etc. Yes. However, how it does so is not stated by those quotes. Manipulating probability is how Gungnir completes Othinus as god by allowing her to control her power.

“Gungnir did nothing more than point my powers in the direction of 100% success. But the fairy spell Ollerus used on me at the very end gave me another possibility as a Magic God: 100% failure. That possibility means all of my actions will backfire. But if I know I will always fail, I can achieve victory by always choosing the exact opposite of my initial impression. …Even without the lance, a Magic God is still a Magic God!! This is not even remotely over!!!!!!”

Gungnir points Othinus power to 100% success, that's it's ability. And it's the opposite of the fairy spell, that makes all of her actions fail. That sounds to me like probability manipulation, but all of that is Gungnir-specific. As your quotes say, using a weapon like that is the Norse-mythology way of dealing with things. While we know that other magic gods also should have the 50/50 problem, we don't know their culture's way of dealing with it.


(Churronzon's reply is very long, so I will get to it later)

 

[Churronzon]

(Churronzon's reply is very long, so I will get to it later)

Before you do, I'll drop the Kakine thing. It really only mattered in the context of my Will CRT.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think that was to say their remaining "body" on the human plane is made from Telesma, not that their soul is made out of it. Like, as said, Telesma is an energy that cane be physically interacted with.

I mean, it was interacted with by Accel controlling AIM in WW3, anywhere else?

Indeed, I think the correct thing here would be to see it as a feat for Accel/Kazakiri/AIM rather than an anti-feat fot Telesma, because I just found this quote from OT21:

"It was a human silhouette with giant wings.
It was an angel.
Even if a magician used a portion of one in the form of Telesma, that magician never really thought of the possibility of actually seeing one."

The notion of Angels/Demons being disembodied souls is only explicitly brought up later in NT from what I know, but this already makes it clear that Kamachi had something in mind, if you have a specific quote saying Angels are only made of Telesma while in the human phase, please give it.

Yeah, like, I'm somewhat fine with having it for Qliphah because she reforms her body from a material that is readily available at all times. So even if completely erased in matter and energy, she could in practice reform (even if it stretches the definition). For Gabriel, the only Telemsa that would be around under normal circumstances is his own, so he might be relatively helpless under the same circumstances.

I do see your point, but you see, my point isn't that Gabriel can comeback without Telesma, my point is that Telesma itself is something spiritual that should be valid for Low Godly... given it's a fancy name for Angel's Souls which humans can use to cast spells.

True regarding Coronzon talking about demons, although I would guess it would be similar for angels. I mean, look how hard it is for Aiwass and angels and demons are kinda two sides of the same coin at that.

Well, Aiwass isn't the same kind of angel as Gabriel, either.

Aiwass is from an entirely different phase and would thus be bound to rules completely different... from everyone else actually, given he is from the baseline phase.

 

[Zensum]

Gonna stop you right there. It absolutely does matter, because they only need 100% regarding their reality warping (i.e. phase manipulation) powers (other actions aren't impacted by the 50/50 thing, as we see with Othinus). And to just have 100% success when using their phase manipulation, they don't necessarily need to use probability manipulation, but could also use other methods to guarantee success which we don't know about. If they use probability manipulation, it could be that they use a method that exclusively manipulates the probability involved in their phase manipulation. And if they use probability manipulation that more generally manipulates probability, it could still easily not be passive but exclusively used when they use phase manipulation.

Hmm? We've definitely seen that ALL her actions, endeavors, goals, magic... etc are impacted by her 50/50 dilemma. It even effects simple rock paper scissors with a child like you brought up. This is the Magic God characteristic that is passive.

“Infinite possibilities sounds good, but that gives you both the possibility of success and the possibility of failure. I suppose it’s something like matter and antimatter. For everything, you must hold the possibility for success and the possibility for failure. No matter how much power you gather, you have a 50/50 chance. If you think of it like Russian roulette, it’s like taking a shot with three bullets loaded.

“This may be a bit hard to understand for someone at the age where you still believe in infinite possibilities. Just think of flipping a coin. The odds of getting heads or tails are 50/50. That is the true identity of ‘infinite possibilities’. Whenever you take an action, you carry both the possibility for success and the possibility for failure. No matter how hard you train, you still have fifty percent odds of losing in a fight to a child. That is what a Magic God is.”

“They will,” replied Magic God Othinus immediately but with no real emotion. “But not because the Anglican Church or the Roman Catholic Church are effective systems and not because Ollerus and his group are powerful. ...It is because of my infinite possibilities as a Magic God. My odds of success and failure are always half and half. The more work I accumulate towards success, the more a card leading to failure will grow somewhere in the world. It is like a shadow that follows my every move.” “That isn’t good. Does that mean the enemy heading this way is you yourself?” “Yes, in a way. I am telling you to knock back the misfortune that I call in. Do not think you can manage this with any normal amount of effort. This is on a level high enough to bind a Magic God.”

50/50 Othinus' issue is she can't control the fact that she is continuously drawing in infinite failure possibilities as well. It's a passive ability that’s “too perfect”. A complete Magic God means 100% Success. That's why it doesn't particularly matter how the mythology leads the god to the end result of complete Magic Godhood. The path varies, but the final destination is identical in that regard. It's just how their existence is setup, it's all inherently probability manipulation.

That sounds like what you are arguing is rather that Othinus doesn't even manipulate probability, but just helps her control her ability? But I don't think that was what you want to argue, is it?

To be clear: It nowhere says Gungnir has no supernatural effect on Othinus. It's a tool that is meant to control a gods power and completes their standing etc. Yes. However, how it does so is not stated by those quotes. Manipulating probability is how Gungnir completes Othinus as god by allowing her to control her power.

Gungnir points Othinus power to 100% success, that's it's ability. And it's the opposite of the fairy spell, that makes all of her actions fail. That sounds to me like probability manipulation, but all of that is Gungnir-specific. As your quotes say, using a weapon like that is the Norse-mythology way of dealing with things. While we know that other magic gods also should have the 50/50 problem, we don't know their culture's way of dealing with it.

No. I'm arguing that Othinus is a pure Magic God that has endless possibilities, a passive effect on probability, that she can't control until she is completed by wielding Gungnir.
Gungnir does have a supernatural effect on Othinus. It is the weapon that represents Odin and his power. Therefore, it is the symbol required to control the power of that Magic God, which is why it seems like the lance posses a probability ability. In this regard, it's why the lance effectively serves no purpose when being wielded by someone who isn't Othinus. The mechanic is just the symbolic weapon aspect of Idol Theory. Just like how Fairy Spell and potentially Imagine Breaker can create a new Magic God possibility for fixed 0%, despite neither power being probability manipulation.

At some point, a large lance had appeared in that hand. It was Gungnir. It was the symbol required to control her massive power as a Magic God.

“Wait a minute.” Kamijou glanced at Othinus over his shoulder. “I thought Gungnir was meant to properly control the power of a Magic God. It shouldn’t do anything if a human uses it!!”

 

[XDragnoir]

I agree with everything Zensum said, Gungnir has no power amping thing, it's literally only a piece to complete Othinus.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I went with what was settled in the CRT. It travels down the four worlds and transforms into physical matter in a short timeframe.

Narration makes note of its speed comparative to at least Aleister's in that they could not react after Flaming Sword is released.

Aleister is currently sub-rel for being able to keep up with Coronzon, but he could not keep up with Magick: Flaming_Sword. Lilith needed to save them.

That ok then.

Well Aiwass has semi omnipresence in the human world, but can still be killed by Curtana since it lurks in the Pure World.

I believe what that quote means that it could harm Aiwass in the pure world while he is there. I don't think it's about hitting him when in the human world.

P sure if Aiwass doesn't have type 9, then they'd have type 4 from reappearing either in the Pure World or in the human world(after a hundred thousand years) after being destroyed, but I'd have to think on it more.

I think what Aiwass is saying there is that someone else would eventually summon him and hence have him return to the human world.

The exposed energy manifestation still absolutely warrants incorporeality and a speed rating since it's completely separate from its dependence on AIM, which is why it can fight in space where there isn't any.
Incorporeality is also already stated in Aiwass's possession technique.

The exposed energy manifestation, yes. But not the pure world one. I guess he should generally have an additional speed rating scaling to Coronzon.

I'm not sure if the fragile energy body is supposed to be intangible. He is incorporeal as a soul, not sure if either of his manifestations is.

It's in her techniques section, but Coronzon doesn't have elemental or earth manipulation in her P&A. I'm also looking to add the word enhanced prior to elemental manipulation with a description and feat. You can see what it looks like in the sandbox.

That much is ok. Although, was it really said that Magic Gods can't find the pure elements?

I also added Coronzon's knowledge of the Abyss to her intelligence section. I'll add it to the OP.

That's ok.

Another profile just listed it as immemorial. I could also write "existed since time immemorial" as that's the canon explanation, verbatim.

Guess that's fine.

Could you explain the difference? She's still patching up wounds with it. An 18th century doctor would consider her good as new.

You're right in that it does something spiritually as well, but I didn't know how to quantify it. For example, wtf does this mean, Coronzon.

Well, to quote:

“The Cake of Light is a powerful enough filler for animal essence that it can take the place of a sacrifice. These are generic containers until you insert the blood, but that is why they can be used as a barrier to prevent your power from leaking out. Blocking up the collapsed portion of my bodily microcosm takes top priority. Stopping the bleeding can wait.”

As it says, the cake of light isn't even stopping the bleeding. It seems to act as a plug to prevent her supernatural power from leaking out through the wound. So it neither regeneration nor heals, but fixes a special weakness where power can flow out of the vessel if it's damaged.

Cake of Light is quite easy to make. Any trinity of fat, protein, and carbs would work and her Queen Britannia has the ingredients which is in her optional equipment. She didn't even need to add menstrual blood to it!

I'm not sure we list something as indirect as that... The Queen Britannia as optional equip is questionable as is, but a power based on something that might technically be created from ingredients on it? That's like double optional or something lol

Ironically, I expected the empathic resistance to be the dubious one as the damage amp is what was harming Accelerator. The magic boost just happens to work by influencing emotions.

The statement of Qliphah (or really the couple with Accelerator) resisting it talks about nothing being able to get between then, so what it sounds like to me is that they have created a special close relationship that can't be disturbed via the empathic aspect... honestly, one could argue that it might be limited in that it's more the combination of Qliphah + Accel resisting it, than Qliphah on her own. But ¯\(ツ)/¯

Agreed(well actually moreso neutral), although I'm not at all interested in making the page... I don't even know what I'd put in it, so until someone decides to make such a page, I'll just revise it as it appears in the sandbox and rescind the passive probability manipulation for True MGs unless people are more in favor of Zensum's proposal.

Well, basically every power all magic gods have would go unto the page + a detailed description of what phases are and stuff (so for example the Phase Manipulation text in the Notable A/T). Honestly, if we make it a separate page, we may as well list a bunch more redundant abilities on it as well. (Like, elemental manipulation or something.)

For self-sustenance, I think I forgot to mention that their first two keys need it since they have infinite stamina listed on their profiles, even if their 3rd key can't have it with a possibly conditional.
But it's pretty funny. Imagine one tries to sleep and the rest destroy the planet

I... don't know whether the limitless stamina considered sleep. If I would harbor a guess, they probably have limitless stamina due to having a limitless amount of magic power.

So if it negates conventional durability wouldn't that be listed in the AP or P&A section? Would it be durability negation through matter manipulation or something adjacent?

One could argue it's durability negation via quantum manipulation, seeing as the mechanic is specifically a weird quantum effect. That would go into the P&A mainly.

Sorry, could you be specific. I don't know what tier anime dog physicals are lol.
Unfortunately, the scaling does apply as Kamisato is currently 8-B and they gravely injured each other...

Anime dog physicals are those of regular dogs.

Husky

The Siberian Husky is a breed of dog from, unsurprisingly, Siberia, bred for both working for humans and acting as a companion to them. The most famous husky is likely Balto, a sled dog who led his team to carry the diphtheria antitoxin from Nenana to Nome in order to combat a diphtheria...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Did we have information of Noukan hurting Kamisato without using weapons? If yes, he can scale, yeah. (for now. I really should try to find the time to make that revision sometime soon) Otherwise, give him dog stats.

 

[XDragnoir]

Mugino:
That's ok. We should probably also note that her shield works more by disintegrating stuff than durability in common sense... especially since her disintegration is hax.

About this, at the same time Mugino got that statement about tearing through matter in Anbu no Item, she was quite literally unable to destroy the depleted uranium threads from the Dragon Motor girl and Saint Germain blocked her MDs with a lance iirc + she also has that reflection trick which wouldn't make much sense if she destroyed matter on contact.

Like, I was thinking about having a CRT for Mugino as I discussed her dura neg with Fanta off site, but meh.

Well, basically every power all magic gods have would go unto the page + a detailed description of what phases are and stuff (so for example the Phase Manipulation text in the Notable A/T). Honestly, if we make it a separate page, we may as well list a bunch more redundant abilities on it as well. (Like, elemental manipulation or something.)

Agree with this + we would be able to add it to Non-MG characters that also have Phase Manipulation...

Actually, slightly off topic, what do y'all think of adding a bit more of detail to Touma's power null if we really create a Phase Manipulation page? IB not only can restore phases (so it would have it anyway) but its power null is basically this restoration in a minor scale, where unnatural alterations to a phase are removed.

"Power Null via Phase Manipulation (IB has the power to restore harmony to the phases by unmaking any non-natural changes to them he can touch)"

 

[Aseka]

Actually, slightly off topic, what do y'all think of adding a bit more of detail to Touma's power null if we really create a Phase Manipulation page?

It's good, helping people know what Imagine Breaker can negate. But on Phase Manipulation pages it should be noted that IB can negate Phases.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

It's currently applied in Anna's profile, but this would additionally apply to Aiwass, Gabriel, Kazakiri, Coronzon, Accelerator, and AIM Burst as they have some form of angelic physiology.

Shouldn't this part also apply to Yuri Sakibasu if Accel qualifies?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Hm... Bump. Btw, I will go the way of Noir and agree with everything. BTW, can somebody give me a recap of stuff that has been accepted and what wasn't? Will help when other mods come by, after all.

 

[Churronzon]

I think what Aiwass is saying there is that someone else would eventually summon him and hence have him return to the human world.

I agree, but does that mean destroying his energy manifestation and getting rid of all AIM fields sends him to the Pure World? What would it take to permanently kill him?

The exposed energy manifestation, yes. But not the pure world one. I guess he should generally have an additional speed rating scaling to Coronzon.

I'm not sure if the fragile energy body is supposed to be intangible. He is incorporeal as a soul, not sure if either of his manifestations is.

You may be right since his energy manifestation apparently remains after Coronzon destroyed Aiwass, despite him not having a physical vessel and being compared to Coronzon without a vessel (who we deem incorporeal). Would that mean she destroyed only his essence somehow?

In the eternal isolation of the Windowless Building, the angel and demon approached the
conclusion of their battle.

“...I see. So this is as far it goes this time.”

That pained voice came from Aiwass.

Avatar Lola Stuart’s slender hand grasped his neck and pointlessly lifted him from the
floor in the weightlessness of space.

“After holding back with Lilith for so long, you must have known the importance of a
physical vessel. Whatever you may be, an avatar is necessary if you wish to influence this
physical world. You can try to fill the gap with tricks, but that is not enough to match my
ultimate strength gained the proper way.”

“Heh.”

Even now, Aiwass continued to smile.

“My fixation on the world of the living ended when Academy City’s AIM diffusion field
was used to release Lilith into the world. I will resume observing from the background.

Yes, Coronzon, I will relax and observe the story of a most foolish demon’s defeat.”

“Are you sure you want those to be your last words?”

“Then I will add a few more. ...It is time you experienced the loneliness of Urashima Tarou,
you mere debris.”

That was all.

Lola felt the sensation of something breaking and she casually tossed the remains aside.
Aiwass’s presence had vanished from the body that simply floated instead of falling to the
floor.

If non-physical energy manifestations aren't incorporeal, idk wtf is going on in this series.

That much is ok. Although, was it really said that Magic Gods can't find the pure elements?

Yes, it can't be reached by MGs since they state they use laws of Assiah, not Beriah like Coronzon. Not like we ever see MGs leave the surface of the four worlds.

“I see. Coronzon lurks behind the Sephiroth, not the Qliphoth. You’re a demon, but you’re
also a gatekeeper who never falls from the tree. I see, I see. You form your power from the
laws of the Olam Beriah, not the Olam Asiyah! Yeah, this is interesting!! You can probably
earn a participation trophy and an ‘A for Effort’ for this!!”

Yes.

The pure elements did not exist in this world and they would never mix with anything else.
Just like pure water and monopoles behaved differently just by being a single pure thing.
Even if it did not have the perfect negation ability of Imagine Breaker, it could push the
enemy away like a moving wall. Gabriel controlled the same water anyone could use, so
why was that archangel such a threat? This was the same. The element was identical, but
the level of purity was far greater.

She mercilessly reached for a pure element which could not be achieved in the human
world.

Only the appropriate knowledge lets you use pure elements.

All elements fall
within my grasp and no element found on the surface of the four worlds or to the very
ends of this earth can be fully separated. Therefore, only the appropriate knowledge
allows one to reach their pure form.”

You have to get rid of your flesh prison and ascend the Sephiroth to reach its knowledge (which Coronzon prevented people from doing).

Telesma could be used to perform a safe summoning by cutting away a small amount
within a temple. It could also be removed and imbued into a sword or even directly sent
into the human body. It would have been difficult for a human to do the same thing. They
would only be confused if they were told to collapse their physical form and enter a sword.

That was what this was.

One could cast off their cage of flesh and ascend the Sephiroth to reach the knowledge
there, but that made them more susceptible to external forces. On the other hand,
descending the tree placed many different physical restrictions on them, but it gave them
a sturdier self. Normal magicians would hate an “unchanging self” as much as a stubborn
mind or stiff joints, but it was all in how it was used.

[...]

“Try it then. Kee hee hee. I am the ruler of the Abyss and the guardian of the knowledge
beyond. No miracle reliant on the Sephiroth or the Qliphoth can kill me. Because I control
who ascends and descends the tree.”

Since she would prevent any human from fully ascending the Sephiroth, no human could
defeat Coronzon by purifying their soul in the normal methods. And you could not reach
that divine territory by using the Qliphoth.

As it says, the cake of light isn't even stopping the bleeding. It seems to act as a plug to prevent her supernatural power from leaking out through the wound. So it neither regeneration nor heals, but fixes a special weakness where power can flow out of the vessel if it's damaged.

I'm not sure we list something as indirect as that... The Queen Britannia as optional equip is questionable as is, but a power based on something that might technically be created from ingredients on it? That's like double optional or something lol

alright

The statement of Qliphah (or really the couple with Accelerator) resisting it talks about nothing being able to get between then, so what it sounds like to me is that they have created a special close relationship that can't be disturbed via the empathic aspect... honestly, one could argue that it might be limited in that it's more the combination of Qliphah + Accel resisting it, than Qliphah on her own. But ¯\(ツ)/¯

True enough. Another Toaru moment.

I... don't know whether the limitless stamina considered sleep. If I would harbor a guess, they probably have limitless stamina due to having a limitless amount of magic power.

ok

One could argue it's durability negation via quantum manipulation, seeing as the mechanic is specifically a weird quantum effect. That would go into the P&A mainly.

About this, at the same time Mugino got that statement about tearing through matter in Anbu no Item, she was quite literally unable to destroy the depleted uranium threads from the Dragon Motor girl and Saint Germain blocked her MDs with a lance iirc + she also has that reflection trick which wouldn't make much sense if she destroyed matter on contact.

Like, I was thinking about having a CRT for Mugino as I discussed her dura neg with Fanta off site, but meh.

I'm neutral on it regardless.

Did we have information of Noukan hurting Kamisato without using weapons? If yes, he can scale, yeah. (for now. I really should try to find the time to make that revision sometime soon) Otherwise, give him dog stats.

He took worse injuries than Kamisato did, but they both injured each other.

She received no response.

A pool of blood spread below a barely-functioning streetlight and a silhouette was
collapsed on its side in the center.

He must have put up a powerful resistance. He must not have moved a single step back.
Noukan had always been a true intellectual, but his fangs were coated in dark blood. It
was not his. He had bit at his opponent over and over like a wild beast.

But his own injuries were far worse. It did not look like simple punches. Yuiitsu identified
them immediately using her thorough knowledge of the rules of destruction. It had likely
been something like a collapsible baton. Even as Noukan had bit at his opponent’s limbs,
the golden retriever had been beaten over and over.

The injuries covered his head, his body, and his legs. Every last part of his body had been
brutally beaten.

Until he could no longer move.

Shouldn't this part also apply to Yuri Sakibasu if Accel qualifies?

I didn't read the Railgun side stories, but if she got white wings and a halo then yeah.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

I'm neutral on it regardless.

Can provide quotes that can help prove the idea that Meltdowner doesn't have dura-neg

Spoiler: proof 1

“Tch!!”

She fired Meltdowner at her feet to leap upwards.

“Oh, you figured it out? There goes my promise to kill you before you noticed.”

Orange sparks scattered a moment later. The wreckage of the seats was sliced through like tofu or jelly even outside the range of the arms and swords.

There were wires.

“That’s why you were right to call me a spider girl.”

Mugino was still hanging in midair, but Hanayama had already made five circuits of the domed ceiling or floor.

Hanayama couldn’t directly contact Mugino in the brief moment she remained airborne, but…

“I won’t let you land. I’ll build a spiderweb of deadly wires. Making wires this thin out of depleted uranium isn’t easy, you know? Now curse your own body weight while I slice you up like tokoroten!!”

Spoiler: proof 2

The attacker did not realize that he was not speaking those words out loud.

(No, it’s not just that. Even the bacterial wall bluff…was nothing more than preparation for this. If I had known Mugino Shizuri was aiming for me, I could have easily dealt with it… That’s why he made me think that any showy possibilities were nothing more than bluffs…That way, I would let my guard down and give them a chance to slowly aim at me…)

With 2 or 3 shots, all of the attackers could have been taken out as long as all of the shots would hit.

If even one shot was evaded, it was over. No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks. - Bakatsuki

The assailant didn’t realize his own words were no longer coming out of his mouth.

(No, that’s not all. Even that bacterial wall bluff…It was only an opening move. If we’d had the information that Shizuri Mugino would be coming after us, it would have been easy to deal with them…He made us think it was a crazy possibility, just a bluff…and that put us off our guard, giving them the opportunity to take careful aim so they could hit for sure...)

A few shots would have been able to wipe out the assailants. If they all hit exactly where they needed to…

If they’d dodged even one, it would’ve been over. Actually, if they used the white wings coming out of their masks, they would’ve been able to repel it, seeing as it was only Meltdown. - Yenpress

Spoiler: proof 3

But Kamijou Touma used Imagine Breaker, Hamazura Shiage used his Power Lifter, Mugino Shizuri used Meltdowner, and Kinuhata Saiai used Offense Armor.

It sounded less like shattering glass and more like a pillar of jewels breaking.

Even with hundreds or thousands of simultaneous attacks, there was nothing to worry about when St. Germain had a single target: Kanou Shinka. If they all surrounded the boy and prepared to intercept, they could reach the spears that were concentrated together and destroy them.

With someone to the front, back, left, and right, they could protect his life.

All four of them only needed some kind of nonstandard power.

“What’s wrong, St. Germain?” asked Kamijou. “I’m sick of seeing what you can do. It’s a powerful but repetitive threat, so can we bring this to an end now?”

“This is a real pain,” cut in Mugino as she held her palm towards the blonde St. Germain. “So basically, we just have to wear down their numbers without actually killing them, right? Well, Academy City’s tech is pretty great; my body’s proof enough of that. They can live a perfectly normal life even if I blow off a limb or three!!”

A brilliant beam of light surged out, but the blonde St. Germain only smiled a little.

She did not dodge with all her might or even shrink back.

She simply rotated the spear in her hand.

The beam had definitely hit, but…

“What!?”

“Is it really that strange?” asked St. Germain with a smile. “This was an attack I had already seen.”

She had caught it near the top of her Chambord and she had done so as easily as catching a white ball thrown by a pitching machine.

“What you have been calling spears are no more than the roots of the Chambord. That name comes from the laboratory I once used. Simply put, it provides all of the tools I need to pursue my research themes. You could say it is a vanguard that takes water and nutrients from others, but you could also call it the fragile fingertips that have difficulty maintaining themselves when not protected within the earth.”

She drew a ring of light by rotating the spear whose point was heated to orange.

Spoiler: proof 4

They did not wait any longer.

Mugino Shizuri fired her #4 beams into the blonde St. Germain again and again.

However, there were no screams or cries.

The pillar directly next to St. Germain had swelled out unnaturally.

Something had shielded her.

The overflowing roar sounded just like pressure escaping a steam engine. The Dianoid’s floor shook as a massive insect slowly revealed its form. To the very top it was just below two meters tall, and it was over four meters long. Its overall silhouette resembled a scorpion with a thick arcing tail in the back.

But instead of legs, it had complexly intertwined tree roots; instead of a mouth, white flower petals with a hint of red; and instead of two giant pincers, the predatory pouches of a carnivorous plant.

It was a mixture of plant and animal, much like an orchid mantis.

The upper body of a man in a tailcoat grew from the tip of the large arced tail where a venomous stinger would normally be found. Needless to say, he was one of the many St. Germains. So in a way, this was essentially a bizarre version of Hamazura’s Power Lifter.

For an instant, Hamazura thought Aneri had undergone a serious error after succumbing to all the rigorous work he was putting it through.

But in reality, the creature’s estimated muscular strength was just that ridiculously high.

(What…?)

The flower scorpion glowed orange in places due to the heat of Meltdowner, but its silhoue tte remained intact and its countless legs scraped at the ground. The blonde St. Germain thrust forward her spear-shaped Chambord as if it were a conductor’s baton.

And of course, there are those silicion cards Mugino can use to "diffract" her beams into a crap-ton of beams. In the end, despite its fancy words, Mugino beams are beams that uses its immense "heat" to attack people with... with no dura neg qualities whatsoever. If it had dura neg, it couldn't be stopped, it couldn't be diffracted, it couldn't be deflected, and it couldn't be flat out tanked... which are all things that happened to Mugino's Meltdowner. So yeah.

I didn't read the Railgun side stories, but if she got white wings and a halo then yeah.

Hm, ye. But if I recall correctly, Yuri's wings lasted for a moment and we haven't seen her since that Railgun SS, so no reason to give her some form of angelic physiology... and knowing Kamachi's bad habits, she likely won't ever show up again. Like many people in the verse.

Can't say anything else, so bai for now.

 

[Aminadab_Brulle]

I didn't read the Railgun side stories, but if she got white wings and a halo then yeah.

Here's the exact quote:

Spoiler

In that final moment, Misaka Mikoto forgot all about the air chilled to a midwinter temperature by the chemical coolant. Her eyes were focused not on Sakibasu Ryouu in that black party dress or on Stativarius Tam Lin that was controlling her. She was focused on Sakibasu Yuri who stood alongside her in harm’s way.

Something erupted from the girl’s shoulder blades.

This was not a dark giant like the one that had leaned over Ryouu’s back.

Really, it may just have been an optical illusion caused by the chemical coolant floating around.

They were pure white.

Something like soft white wings floated behind her.

And a halo glowed above her head.

It made her look like…

(An ang-…?)

 

[Doggo]

Can provide quotes that can help prove the idea that Meltdowner doesn't have dura-neg

Spoiler: proof 1

“Tch!!”

She fired Meltdowner at her feet to leap upwards.

“Oh, you figured it out? There goes my promise to kill you before you noticed.”

Orange sparks scattered a moment later. The wreckage of the seats was sliced through like tofu or jelly even outside the range of the arms and swords.

There were wires.

“That’s why you were right to call me a spider girl.”

Mugino was still hanging in midair, but Hanayama had already made five circuits of the domed ceiling or floor.

Hanayama couldn’t directly contact Mugino in the brief moment she remained airborne, but…

“I won’t let you land. I’ll build a spiderweb of deadly wires. Making wires this thin out of depleted uranium isn’t easy, you know? Now curse your own body weight while I slice you up like tokoroten!!”

Spoiler: proof 2

The attacker did not realize that he was not speaking those words out loud.

(No, it’s not just that. Even the bacterial wall bluff…was nothing more than preparation for this. If I had known Mugino Shizuri was aiming for me, I could have easily dealt with it… That’s why he made me think that any showy possibilities were nothing more than bluffs…That way, I would let my guard down and give them a chance to slowly aim at me…)

With 2 or 3 shots, all of the attackers could have been taken out as long as all of the shots would hit.

If even one shot was evaded, it was over. No, the white wings coming from the mask most likely could deflect those weakened Meltdowner attacks. - Bakatsuki

The assailant didn’t realize his own words were no longer coming out of his mouth.

(No, that’s not all. Even that bacterial wall bluff…It was only an opening move. If we’d had the information that Shizuri Mugino would be coming after us, it would have been easy to deal with them…He made us think it was a crazy possibility, just a bluff…and that put us off our guard, giving them the opportunity to take careful aim so they could hit for sure...)

A few shots would have been able to wipe out the assailants. If they all hit exactly where they needed to…

If they’d dodged even one, it would’ve been over. Actually, if they used the white wings coming out of their masks, they would’ve been able to repel it, seeing as it was only Meltdown. - Yenpress

Spoiler: proof 3

But Kamijou Touma used Imagine Breaker, Hamazura Shiage used his Power Lifter, Mugino Shizuri used Meltdowner, and Kinuhata Saiai used Offense Armor.

It sounded less like shattering glass and more like a pillar of jewels breaking.

Even with hundreds or thousands of simultaneous attacks, there was nothing to worry about when St. Germain had a single target: Kanou Shinka. If they all surrounded the boy and prepared to intercept, they could reach the spears that were concentrated together and destroy them.

With someone to the front, back, left, and right, they could protect his life.

All four of them only needed some kind of nonstandard power.

“What’s wrong, St. Germain?” asked Kamijou. “I’m sick of seeing what you can do. It’s a powerful but repetitive threat, so can we bring this to an end now?”

“This is a real pain,” cut in Mugino as she held her palm towards the blonde St. Germain. “So basically, we just have to wear down their numbers without actually killing them, right? Well, Academy City’s tech is pretty great; my body’s proof enough of that. They can live a perfectly normal life even if I blow off a limb or three!!”

A brilliant beam of light surged out, but the blonde St. Germain only smiled a little.

She did not dodge with all her might or even shrink back.

She simply rotated the spear in her hand.

The beam had definitely hit, but…

“What!?”

“Is it really that strange?” asked St. Germain with a smile. “This was an attack I had already seen.”

She had caught it near the top of her Chambord and she had done so as easily as catching a white ball thrown by a pitching machine.

“What you have been calling spears are no more than the roots of the Chambord. That name comes from the laboratory I once used. Simply put, it provides all of the tools I need to pursue my research themes. You could say it is a vanguard that takes water and nutrients from others, but you could also call it the fragile fingertips that have difficulty maintaining themselves when not protected within the earth.”

She drew a ring of light by rotating the spear whose point was heated to orange.

Spoiler: proof 4

They did not wait any longer.

Mugino Shizuri fired her #4 beams into the blonde St. Germain again and again.

However, there were no screams or cries.

The pillar directly next to St. Germain had swelled out unnaturally.

Something had shielded her.

The overflowing roar sounded just like pressure escaping a steam engine. The Dianoid’s floor shook as a massive insect slowly revealed its form. To the very top it was just below two meters tall, and it was over four meters long. Its overall silhouette resembled a scorpion with a thick arcing tail in the back.

But instead of legs, it had complexly intertwined tree roots; instead of a mouth, white flower petals with a hint of red; and instead of two giant pincers, the predatory pouches of a carnivorous plant.

It was a mixture of plant and animal, much like an orchid mantis.

The upper body of a man in a tailcoat grew from the tip of the large arced tail where a venomous stinger would normally be found. Needless to say, he was one of the many St. Germains. So in a way, this was essentially a bizarre version of Hamazura’s Power Lifter.

For an instant, Hamazura thought Aneri had undergone a serious error after succumbing to all the rigorous work he was putting it through.

But in reality, the creature’s estimated muscular strength was just that ridiculously high.

(What…?)

The flower scorpion glowed orange in places due to the heat of Meltdowner, but its silhoue tte remained intact and its countless legs scraped at the ground. The blonde St. Germain thrust forward her spear-shaped Chambord as if it were a conductor’s baton.

And of course, there are those silicion cards Mugino can use to "diffract" her beams into a crap-ton of beams. In the end, despite its fancy words, Mugino beams are beams that uses its immense "heat" to attack people with... with no dura neg qualities whatsoever. If it had dura neg, it couldn't be stopped, it couldn't be diffracted, it couldn't be deflected, and it couldn't be flat out tanked... which are all things that happened to Mugino's Meltdowner. So yeah.


Hm, ye. But if I recall correctly, Yuri's wings lasted for a moment and we haven't seen her since that Railgun SS, so no reason to give her some form of angelic physiology... and knowing Kamachi's bad habits, she likely won't ever show up again. Like many people in the verse.

Can't say anything else, so bai for now.

Still tho, it's extreme heat is pretty op when you think of it. We just need specific numbers.


Man, I wonder how many characters will have been made at the end

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Still tho, it's extreme heat is pretty op when you think of it. We just need specific numbers.


Man, I wonder how many characters will have been made at the end

At the top of my head, Mugino has melted a steel wall in Railgun (melting point of steel is 1410°C (2570°F) via google fu) and a carbon wall in NT (melting point of carbon is 3550°C via... obviously google-fu). So pretty darn hot, more or less. Isn't too important rn since, well... this is Zon's Ability Add CRT, but this info is useful for future Mugino stuff.

Also, only Kamachi knows, Doggo.

Also, also, from what I gathered... the only issues rn are MG stuff, Gabby stuff, Accel's trash daughter stuff, and some of best doggo stuff, right?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

BUMP

 

[XDragnoir]

Can provide quotes that can help prove the idea that Meltdowner doesn't have dura-neg

Of all these quotes I think the only one that isn't actually an Anti-feat is the one with the DM Wings, like, even if these guys don't have Kakine's control over DM (iirc their control over it was limited to shape and movements) it's still DM, so not being able to quantum bullshit a way through them is fair... but all the other quotes are there so yeah, no dura neg here and just lots of heat.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Yep, but enough about Mugino for now. Is there anything else to talk about? If not, I will attempt to get some mods to look at this CRT.

 

[Doggo]

Is there proof Sugiitas self-destruction is higher than his own AP?

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Is there proof Sugiitas self-destruction is higher than his own AP?

By Gunha's own admission, he considered his self-destruction technique to be the only thing he had to suppress Mikoto's Black Sphere. So, ye.