- 2,917
- 2,113
fair enough
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Toaru revisions, Omnibus edition
- Status
- 2,917
- 2,113
Coronzon should also have this
vsbattles.fandom.com
Avatar Creation
Avatar Creation is the ability to manifest another entity in the place of one's true body, using it as an avatar. This ability may allow the users to interact with the world in a way their true forms, which may be too abstract to normally physically interact. One could also use the ability to...
vsbattles.fandom.com
- 2,917
- 2,113
Can you also add the stuff from this old Crt?
also you should add Causality manipulation for the MGs, and instead of "changing the rules of nature" just say Physics manipulation
also you should add Causality manipulation for the MGs, and instead of "changing the rules of nature" just say Physics manipulation
- 10,497
- 11,517
Meltdowner also destroys the bonds between molecules and stuff. I also hinted to destroy atoms. It's definitely some degree of durability negation. Which isn't the same as saying that it disintegrates everything with the same ease, of course. (Although St. Germain stuff is magic, so hard to say if it even counts)
Eh, other phase manipulators wouldn't have it to the same extent as the MGs. It would then need two versions. The one where you can reality warp everything... and the one where the exact powers vary a lot between users.
I don't think Touma power nulls via Phase manip. He power nulls phase manip, but the mechanism behind it isn't phase related. Otherwise it wouldn't work on esper powers. (at least, as far as we know esper powers aren't phase related)
It probably would send him to the Pure World, yeah. Similar to how it works for angels, just to the pure world instead of heaven. If Aiwass has a soul or something, I suppose destroying that would kill him. Otherwise, idk.
Idk. Could be. Or could be that breaking the energy vessel's neck was enough to defeat Aiwass, after he couldn't regenerate from AIM fields anymore.
Ehhhh.... technically, that says what Coronzon is using, not necessarily what the MGs are restricted to. And while Coronzon might stop humans, I'm not sure if fully realized magic gods fall within that category. Given, there is no evidence of the contrary either. Personally, I would just leave that note out. It's not like it actually relates to the power of the ability anyway.
Since it says he bit Kamisato that's fine. (for now)
The thread is dealing with enough stuff as it is. Any further revisions should not be added here, but in a separate thread afterwards.
- 10,497
- 11,517
As it stands, that's definitely speculation. Unless there was some huge reveal I missed lol
Like, don't think Aleister would give people the ability to produce even more sparks.
- 172
- 24
IIRC, phases produce sparks when they get into contact with each other. Wouldn't that mean that any spark-creation in AC could only possibly occur by Numberrelatedname Kihara no. 2137 physically smashing brains together for lulz?
That being said, it still doesn't exactly prove the connection to IB.
- 10,497
- 11,517
Thing is, magic creates sparks everywhere. Like, just because some place is non-religious doesn't mean that invoking christian magic won't create sparks (I mean, that's basically the situation when Aleister uses magic in AC).
So I think if each Esper had a phase than that would likely still clash against the religious phases, which lie over the world like a different frequency.
Of course Kamachi could come up with an excuse why they don't, but... well, ultimately the connection of Esper powers and magic is as of yet just unknown.
- 7,717
- 2,349
When did it do that? Any quote I can remember about the MDs have 0 mentions to bonds between molecules.
Also, Magic doesn't magically get resistance to things in-verse, St. Germain can control carbon and that's it, no mention to "resistance to quantum destruction" or whatever.
Yeah, I have seen Verse Specific Powers split things between Low and High uses, but with Phases specifically I think it would be better to list as a medium for other powers (i.e XYZ via phase manipulation) and then explaining in the profiles what exactly they can do.
Ehhhh, did you read the last part I wrote? IB is the Backup of the world and its Phases, that is what allow IB to null changes to the phases, said changes don't need to come from Direct Phase Manipulation.
Magicians change things via causality distortions while Espers do it via probability distortions, IB restores via having the original rules of the Phases that don't allow these distortions.
Basically, if the world is a Box, IB has Box Restoration, it doesn't matter if you use Box Control, fire, or water to alter the Box, IB has its own Box Control in the form of Restoration.
- 10,497
- 11,517
Meltdowner is called Atom Breaker and changes Mitori's liquid metal's molecular structure, to make her unable to control it.
True, magic in general doesn't have resistance. However, it's not like this magic technique that controls carbon at the microscopic level couldn't resist similar microscopic disintegration. It's not unplausible and one could argue that him doing so is a feat of it.
Eh, remember how the Esper Power page couldn't be actually added, because not having enough abilities? If we just use it as medium, the same would apply here. Like, we have to list abilities for it to be allowed to exist. So, at best we can have two types on the same page. One for MG's that have all abilities and one for other users where it's just the mechanism, I suppose.
Yes, but that is not accomplished by using phase manipulation. "Via" usually denotes a mechanism on this site. Phase Manipulation is not the mechanism (as far as we know). So you can say IB nullifies Phase Manip and that it finds out what to nullify by taking things like phases into account, but you can't say it's accomplished via manipulating phases. Like, IB doesn't overwrite the new phase with a former one to negate the changes or anything like that.
- 7,717
- 2,349
Oh, it was in Anbu no Item, I was trying to remember things from OT/NT, anyway, what she did there wasn't molecular/atomic/quantum destruction anyway, was it? That's a completely different application of her power from the matter destruction you're trying to argue.
Given we have no mention of that actually being in place, we shouldn't assume it is.
I meant in the profiles, not the page itself, obviously several abilities would be added to the page itself, mainly the ones the MGs have with it, but I was saying I don't like that "Low x High" structure like what you're implying here to be in either the page or the profiles.
IMO the page should explain what Phases are and everything they have been used to do, while the indexing of each character should have it as a medium (or in the case of the MGs just have it as Complete or something like that, as they can do anything with it).
Bro? It's literally removing non-natural changes to the phase, so why are you trying to split what it does (power null) from what it is (a backup to phases)?
His power literally restores harmony to things that had their values altered (be it low scale with Espers/Magicians or large scale with MGs destroying things), that's how Birdway described it and iirc Ollerus said something similar, how is it not a Phase Manipulation thing when these base values are literally how the Phase is meant to be and the "power null" being him restoring the values to default?
Again, Touma has a Box Restoration power, unnatural alterations to the Box can be undone by IB, how is that not a Box Power?
No one said it does, at least I know I didn't, idk why you're seeing Phase Manipulation as some kind of obligatory large scale universal rewriting when:
1 - IB can do that too if that was the case.
2 - Marian already proved that small scale Phase Manipulation is a thing and IB is the other example (in this case being able to do both small and large scale)
- 10,497
- 11,517
She separates molecular bonds by creating ions (which means she takes electrons away from atoms). I would argue that is molecular destruction.
I mean, resistance feats are a thing. But see it as you wish. Although I will point out that it is even more durable in that regard than the already durable Dianoid. So I would say it isn't exactly normal stuff.
With our rules on P&A pages, I don't think that's allowed. And at least for the MGs I would want it actually on the page, as it just makes it much easier to read and reduces redundancy, since it just are so many abilities.
Imagine a character had the ability to put out fires that burn on wood. So one power is fire extinguishing, but do they also have wood manipulation? No, because they don't manipulate the wood, they just undo the fire.
Or other example: If someone manipulates causality to undo a building collapse, should they have building manipulation, besides causality manipulation? No. They don't manipulate the building, they just do something that affects it.
This is similar. Touma doesn't manipulate phases, he just undoes changes to them by some unknown method.
I'm not. I just don't think an ability that undoes changes to x, amongst other things, is x manipulation.
- 7,717
- 2,349
The metal was still there from what I understood, Mitori just lost control over it, so what exactly was destroyed? Anyway, this would still be a different type of destruction from her lasers literally slicing through any matter regardless of durability/heat resistance, so? We are just arguing for an entire new ability at this point.
I mean, resistance feats are a thing, I know, but what about the depleted uranium threads then? Do these get resistance too for no reason?
Trying to force resistances where there might not be an ability to begin with is one of the most common things I see across the wiki and I think it's stupid, so can we avoid it in Toaru?
What exactly isn't allowed? I don't get what you're saying here, I am pretty sure I didn't say anything that goes against any indexing rule I know about.
As for the MGs, I quite literally said they should have Complete/Full/whatever Phase Manipulation as they have any and all application you can get with it,I just literally said we shouldn't write the page as Low Users and High Users like some Verse Powers do, and I doubt this would be against the rules.
Touma's power isn't fire extinction tho, in your example IB would be Wood Restoration.
Like, simple as that, if I throw acid on the wood, fire extinction would be useless because fire extinction is a specific counter to one kind of threat, IB is literally stated to null any changes to the phases because it restores the harmony to the values of the phases, it is literally restoring the phase itself to how it should be after espers/magicians/whatever change it unnaturally, what is so hard to get about this?
Bro, it's not an unknown method, what? IB is literally the backup of the phases and it restores the harmony to them when the values are altered by Magic or whatever, there is absolutely nothing unknown about it and it's a form of phase manipulation (again, Phase Restoration), simple as that.
If I close a hole in spacetime I don't get spacetime manipulation?
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #54
Do we know this is the case? I could definitely see arguments to support it, but the Pure World is a part of Asiyah,(or moreso is Asiyah-Gashmi) the surface of the four worlds, where bodiless entities can't exist.
Pure World is located at the bottom of the Sephiroth.
So it would be Self-BFR upon its destruction in the human world? And did you mean that if Aiwass's soul in the human world were to be destroyed, he wouldn't spawn in the Pure World? Or would you have to destroy his soul in the Pure World?
alright, but it's the part of the reason why Coronzon considers MGs as humans who have stopped partway up the mountain.
It's also supported by the following quote
I believe Level 6 is also just one step in to Ain Soph, but I'd have to recheck.
I also have issue with the statement in the Magic Gods' intelligence section of completely mastering magic, as that's clearly not the case since they don't even share each other's skillsets, nor would Niang-Niang be surprised that pure fire erased her sparks.
Why can’t the dog have possibly conditionals for killing a Magic God offscreen?
I'm probably going to be repeating the following question a lot, surrounding conditionals. Why can't magic gods have "possibly type 3"?
Anna doesn't know Misaki can't control nonhumans and even if she did, she's clearly not referring to Misaki's weakness. It's a blanket statement to anyone looking to control an angel. It's the exact same reason as to why Anna is attributed as noselling it when she's apparently still a human who isn't prone to Misaki's weakness. Misaki's weakness is just an additional reason as to why she can't control angels/Anna. It's not the sole reason.
I forgot to specifically note that Aiwass's "flight through the manipulation of unknown energy" applies to Accelerator and Kazakiri so I'm looking to add it to their profiles, although my intent was prob obvious.
Last edited:
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #55
I changed the explanation of pure elements in the sandbox to the one Kamachi used.
- 10,497
- 11,517
In my understanding, the point was that it disintegrated the alloy into its parts, by that not making it the metal Mitori could control. And I think Mugino probably used the Meltdowner for that? I admit it's not clear, but I have my doubts that she could disintegrate the molecular bonds of something just by pointing. That would be even more overpowered for obvious reasons.
I'm not at that point of the novel yet, but I assume they would fall in the category of materials hard to disintegrate. Not all molecular bonds of real life materials are equally hard to disintegrate either.
Thing is, we have at least that one statement about her disintegrating the bonds between molecules.
What I mean is "not allowed" is to make the page and not use it as a list of abilities which we then take off the user's respective profiles.
And, obviously, if we take the MGs abilities and transfer those on the page for that purpose, we have to somehow make clear that other users which link to the page than not have those. I.e. we will need a distinction on the page that says "MGs get these abilities from this, other people that link to this ability don't." The typical way would be to have two types on the page. A MG type and an everyone else type. If you don't want that, we have to get creative some other way.
To your last question: Unless you do it by manipulating spacetime, you indeed don't. If you accomplish it by manipulating casuality, then you don't.
As for the wood: If you repair the damage by manipulating wood you get it. If you repair it by healing the tree, you get healing. If you repair it by creating a new fitting piece of wood and replace the damaged part with it, you get creation.
Problem in any case: Touma doesn't just repair wood, he also repairs stone damaged by the fire. Or, to get out of this metaphor, Touma's power isn't even to repair phases. He undoes change to anything in the world if it's twisted by the supernatural. Including esper powers, which for all we know could alter the world even if there were no phases at all. (i.e. they could potentially alter the pure world) But IB undoes that as well.
Touma doesn't manipulate the wood, he manipulates the hole. I.e. his power affects the change done to the world, not the world (or phase in particular) itself. You can't say the power to prevent change to x is a power that manipulates x. He doesn't manipulate phases, he prevents them from being manipulated. So it would make no sense to list it as phase manipulation.
Aiwass is a special case just for being able to exist there at all, given how that is a world of pure science. The reasoning applying to regular angels and demons doesn't really apply to him.
And we do know it with relative certainty, as Aiwass evidently has no physical form and needs to be given a vessel. If he were a fundamentally physical existence he would already have a body.
Presumably, if his soul is destroyed in the human world he wouldn't return to the pure world. That is under the assumption that Aiwass works similar to angels in that regard, though. Seeing as he is an angel that exists in the pure world, it could be that he doesn't even have a magical thing like a soul.
Technically even Coronzon said they mastered magic. But yeah, more accurately, they mastered magic to the extent of having found a way to instantly do anything they can imagine. They haven't studied every possible way to make something happen via magic.
Because even possibly needs certain minimal requirements of evidence. Which isn't met here.
Crowley himself can't unconditionally output enough energy to kill a MG, so that the A.A.A. powered by him can is a big jump in reasoning. With no real evidence to back up that this was a pure power move, it's pure speculation that the A.A.A. is just as powerful as a fully powered MG. And pure speculation shouldn't have a possibly. Especially if related to literally more than infinitely big power jumps.
And you mean the sleeping with possibly type 3, right? Well, I feel like the statement doesn't indicate it much. Like, I would give a soldier "possibly type 3" for a statement that he's "constantly fighting in war" either.
Anna knows a lot of things. Not sure if she really doesn't know about mental out or couldn't have figured out the details from the attempt. And we know many magic has angels as an exception as well, because they just are higher beings.
Basically, I'm not quite convinced this reasoning can be applied to out-of-verse mind control techniques. We have relatively little context here and can't just give it based on the idea that they would resist the power of the character in which's regard it was said.
That's ok I guess.
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #58
Sounds like it can't be added because there's no way to effectively tier it as it sounds like a NLF if the mind manip user lacks the comprehension feats for esoteric phenomena. If it’s instead too dubious the characters it could apply to, we could limit it strictly to full angels.
And again, the resistance for angels is using the same exact reasoning that Anna's is.
Going back to the incorporeality argument for Aiwass's exposed energy manifestation, is Lilith incorporeal without a vessel?
Okay on whatever else we were talking about.
Do you think the type 2 immortality applies just for the angel dragon or could the rest of the dragons get it with/without a conditional? I'm fine with either result.
Last edited:
- 7,717
- 2,349
You see, "If you accomplish it by manipulating causality, then you don't" is what happens if there's a specific power behind the feat and we know that beforehand, think of cartoon and comic characters here, when they do a feat that is not linked to any of their know powers (which happens a lot due to writers just throwing things around), how do we index it?
Spacetime manipulation (can close holes in spacetime).
As we know, IB has no powers behind it other than its ability to undo changes to the Phases.
...
You're taking the wood analogy way too literally, you know.
It's good that you and me agree Touma doesn't create new phases to null things, so this part doesn't apply to him.
This part is going completely against the analogy, what is stone even supposed to stand for if Wood was already meant to be the Phases? You're saying absolutely nothing here.
Yeah, and he undoes said changes by restoring the Phase to their original values:
"It's not that simple," Birdway responded to Accelerator's question with a sardonic grin. "Imagine Breaker works exceedingly well when it is normalizing abnormal values, but it does not show much power when dealing with something that is uniform from the start. It only carries out destruction of things that have already had their harmony taken. ...For example, he does not destroy someone's soul when he touches them, and he does not destroy the planet when he touches it. Yet those things do indeed have supernatural power flowing through them."
The world itself is a Phase, so idk how would your scenario even play out and I'd like to see any quotes supporting the idea that they could alter the Pure World.
Also, the Pure World has also been called a Phase iirc, so whatever.
It isn't, like, at all.
What you're saying goes completely against what IB is. IB is the backup of the phases and that allows it to undo changes to them, there is nothing more to the "power null" aspect than this, I'd really like to see any quotes supporting your point here too.
Just saying, but IB can both prevent and undo changes to phases and that's done by being the backup of all Phases and thus having the original values, and you're telling me he his powers have nothing to do with Phase Manipulation.
- 10,497
- 11,517
Let's agree on "unconventional resistance due to having a non-human mental structure" or something. I think most mind control in fiction won't care about it, but some will, I suppose.
She seemed to physically interact with the world just fine, so probably not? (But man, we really need to make a Lilith profile something. She pretty much has Immeasurable reaction speed, which makes her quite busted)
Don't think we have enough reason to scale it to others.
Imagine Breaker has a power behind it, but it isn't the power to undo changes to Phases. He can also undo changes to things that aren't Phases in the world. The power behind it is Power Nullification, just the special kind which reverses the changes powers had on reality. That's where your analogy with the space hole falls flat. The "default" for a power that undoes powers isn't Phase Manipulation, but Power Null. As that's the power that documents the phenomenon of undoing powers.
Phases are in Index usually what is added on top the pure world. It's "the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters" after all. So I don't think it's a phase as such. And yes, I do think IB could undo changes to the world of science since, as we know, he can undo the effects of scientific powers i.e. Esper abilities. Those would be included in the pure world.
Additionally, if you claim Phases are just all of reality, then what you are looking for is just Reality Warping. Because you are just talking about all of reality then, rather than Phases as special objects. Of course, reality warping is a catch-all term and power null is more specific, so we would not actually list reality warping.
So yeah, the power that undoes the changes of other powers on everything, with no known mechanism on how it does so, is power null.
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #61
Okay
Toaru has the weirdest bodiless state. I'm guessing immeasurable reaction speed has to do with the causality being ignored when she blocked Magick: Flaming_Sword? I'm all for making a profile for her, but I have no idea how people gauge/scale her since she's never talked about in the fandom.
Is there a particular reason for why sin manipulation doesn't qualify? Not sure how I'd word limited widespread mind manip when she already has general mind manip as an ability.
Last edited:
- 7,717
- 2,349
Example?
- 10,497
- 11,517
Yeah, she twists causality to go first even if she's slower, hence Immeasurable reactions. I would argue she is probably Gugnir-level with miracles (as she can catch flaming_sword) and otherwise she had baby-stats from what I remember.
Because sin manipulation isn't an ability? We have to go for something that the wiki knows as classification.
You don't have to list it in the P&A at all. There mind manipulation is all that needs to be mentioned. IMO just list it in the Notable A/T section.
Pure World, which is the world of just science. With Esper powers being science they are a thing in the pure world. We have little reason to assume IB wouldn't nullify Esper powers in the pure world.
But let me say it in another way: We have no reason to assume IB specifically works on phases, as that isn't said. By what it says it specifically works on powers that change the world.
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #64
Oh, I found it under unholy manipulation. I shoulda written that in the original post, my bad.
- Sin Manipulation: Amplify the inner evil of other beings.
- 10,497
- 11,517
- 7,717
- 2,349
Problem is, the Pure World is a phase too, it is the bottom layer/phase, but it's still a layer/phase:
“By passing all that power through this foundational layer, that ‘bottom’ layer can be broken and removed. From there, all other phases will be destroyed along with this one. Without the core, the other forces cannot maintain their revolutions.”
She clenched her fist and took a step from the center.
With their directions from the “core” gone, the large plates scattered blindly and bumped into each other.
A single action caused it all to fall apart.
“Aleister apparently wanted to save humanity by destroying every other phase and leaving just this one behind, but I am the opposite. By removing the ‘bottom’ layer at the center, the phases for all mythologies and religions will be destroyed. That is the Ceremony of Mo Athair. Nothing at all will remain afterwards.”
Also, please give me any proof that espers exist in the Pure World, I don't remember such a thing at all.
Which again is just you making distinctions where there shouldn't be any.
"IB works on powers that change the world"... bro, do you know what the world is in Toaru? The Universe is a phase, Heaven is a phase, Hell is a phase, the Pure World is a phase. You're literally saying IB works against the sea but doesn't work against seawater.
IB is a single thing, it is the backup of all phases and it being the backup allows it to bring the values back to their original form after they suffer alterations by supernatural means. We see all of this in practice, idk why you're refusing to accept such a basic thing.
Even the process that created IB is similar to the one that created the phases, IB being the dream of magicians/MGs to keep the world the way it is, meanwhile Phases are the beliefs of humans taking real form.
- 10,497
- 11,517
Putting that whole IB debate aside for now (might get back to it later or at latest when a thread is made) I think everything in the OP was discussed?
If so, we just need the approval of one or two more staff members before this can be applied.
If so, we just need the approval of one or two more staff members before this can be applied.
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #68
I don't even know what we agreed on for Aiwass's incorporeality and Gabriel's NPI. I think you said it would apply for their versions when they're inside phases. I'll go with any conclusion.
The last thing I wanted to talk about was Fiamma's deconstruction. Would it not at least apply to the boosted fairy stake that is directly using the disintegration properties?
The last thing I wanted to talk about was Fiamma's deconstruction. Would it not at least apply to the boosted fairy stake that is directly using the disintegration properties?
- 10,497
- 11,517
Incorporeality I would go with no incorp for the energy body (should be similar to manifested Hyouka), but incorp for the true form. (soul or whatever) Similar to angels, basically.
Let's say NPI for angels is fine.
Seeing how the fairy spell does, in the end, disintegrate the target into particles of light, that is ok.
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #70
alright, sounds good
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #71
bump
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #72
bump
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #74
I don't know how the passive probability manipulation stuff is going to be settled, but I'm leaving Mugino's dura negation for a different thread. DT expressed skepticism for type 3 self-sustenance although it's possible they mean to flat out disagree instead. Everything else is settled amongst supporters.
- 1,554
- 426
I think all counter args for the probability stuff were addressed quite a bit ago with some support.
I'm also not quite sure about type-3, but I think you can do something with this quote:
- 748
- 210
- Thread starter
- #76
Interesting. I honestly don't know if it supports or refutes type 3. Never self-destructing supports it, but it being called "near" infinite would disqualify type 3. However, that could also just be the author's prose like when he asks the audience whether they think incorporeal demons need to eat or if the shockwave of a High 1-C attack could maybe destroy a regular human if they're too close. There might be better examples, but you get the point.
I'm not too hung up on type 3 myself; I just figured supporters would be in favor of it.
- 10,497
- 11,517
As far as I am concerned it's a still no for passive probability manip for MGs besides Othinus.
- 1,554
- 426
Alright and it seems several of the other supporters disagree with you. So it looks like more staff input is needed.
- 1,554
- 426
Correct, but the disagreement is on whether passive probability manipulation is coming from Endless Possibilities (Native to all Magic Gods) or Gungnir itself (Specific to Othinus).
- Status
