• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Tiering of KH fodder and Disney "Unknown" scaling

Status
Not open for further replies.
Did anyone request the calcs yet? Apologies to say I've been negligent in not requesting it myself. Also, I think it would be good to find some footage of maybe Heartless or Nobodies that aren't unique & made of rock or steel or other materials we can get a density for. KE feats are a thing, too.
 
It seems it hasn't been the case yet.

Mmm... okay, I sure remember there were quite some noteworthy feats around, what are the most notable ones, once again? I kinda forgot, sorry.
 
I think if you want feats calculated, good material would be explosions, making hurricanes/twisters/tornados, freezing, & KE if you can be certain of the material compositions: Ex: A rock monster moving fast. Water has mass, too, so Water Manipulation can be calc'd, & so can Sand/Earth Manipulation.
 
Mmm... there's too much stuff to ask calcs for, where should we start? As obviously I can't just request everything at once.
 
Well, let's see what already existing blogs -even if they aren't for KH characters- can tell us!

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#Freezing_a_Human

Average human weight = 62kg

On average 65% of the human body weight is water.

So water mass = 0.65*62kg.

So total energy = 62 * 3500 * 38 + 0.65*62*1000*333.55 =21,688,065 Joules, Small Building level

So if we find a feat of a fodder freezing something like a human or humanoid, it's probably close to that.

Skater Bombs can freeze the Nobody player characters at least partially -How much might vary by character- and do use that same kind of magic for damaging, and may also damage other enemies with it.

So, assuming we don't treat the freezing feat as an outlier for freezing the player characters -despite that the feat is ice creation, not damaging the player characters- then

...we can scale a portion of that to Skater Bombs, and if any enemies survive that, scale durability similarly!

2.16262977

For KE, it's uncertain if Heartless have mass, but let's suppose we find one we're sure it does. I think KH3 has some rock-golem like enemies that are humanoid.

I don't know the exact sizes of them or Sora, so let's do an example.

The "normal" body surface area is generally taken to be 1.7 m2 but, in actual fact, the body surface area depends on more than just height and weight. Other influential factors include the age and gender of the individual. For example: Average body surface area for adult men: 1.9 m2.

Let's look at finding the volume of a human, since we need volume and density to get mass, and mass & speed to get Kinetic Energy. https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-volume-of-average-Human Using our above "generic mass", that's 62 kg / 985 kg/m^3

That gets us our volume. About 62.94 liters, or rather 62,944 cm^3 (cubic centimeters; Both it & liters are measurements of volume.)

My favorite explanation of Square Cube Law is from TV Tropes .

"When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier."
"And Newton's famous Second Law (the "force = mass × acceleration" one) means that if you double a critter's height while keeping it the same shape, you end up with four times the muscle power moving eight times the mass"

So doubled size means take the square of 2 (To square is to multiply a number by itself. 2x2), & the surface area is multiplied by that, & to cube a number is to multiply a number times itself and times itself once more (In this case, 2x2x2.)... and if the shape stays the same, that's what the volume AND the mass become!

So pretending we have a rock monster bigger than a man (Say, twice the height, at 3.4 meters), we check how many times bigger (2 times) it is than the smaller thing of similar shape.

The human's mass being multipled won't be relevant since it's a ROCK monster, of course, but....

Thus, we take the above volume of a human of 62,944 cm^3, & multiply it by 8, we get 503,552 cm^3 (cubic centimeters). Let's hypothetically say it has the density of granite , which is 2,650 to 2,750 kg/m^3. On average, 2,700 kg/m^3.

Mass = Volume * Density.

503,552 cm^3 is a measurement of volume, & 2,700 kg/m^3, so multiply them together! (Although, 1 m^3 (a cubic meter) is 1 million cubic centimeters (cm^3), so do note that.)

About 1359.59 or 1360 kilograms. If that mass moves at the average speed of Normal Human Speed (6.35 m/s).... 27.41 kj or 27,410 joules. Wall Level begins at 15,000 & ends at 20,920,000.

If we went and used the fastest human baseball pitch ever (106 mph or 47.38624 m/s) for the movement.... 1.527 megajoules (or 1,527,000 joules.). Still Wall Level, but almost a whole thirteenth of Maximum Wall Level.

If you're wondering about KE feats for human masses, this blog is helpful: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/General_Calc:_KE_and_Humans

Also, since the vehicle-like Hot Rods were brought up, let's experiment. What if they were as heaviest as the heaviest real car ever and as fast as the fastest real car ever? Not like we perfectly know the Hot Rods' materials or density.

Nothing passes 6,600 kg, and the fastest on my source is 124.222222 m/s.

About 50.92 Megajoules , or 50,920,000 joules. 30 million higher than Max Wall Level, a little over half of max Small Building Level.

So we'll need either very big or very fast vehicular enemies for them to break 9-B.

For explosions....

If you are having a hard time using the nuclear calculator, this equation can be used to find the yield of said explosion.

  • Air blast radius (near-total fatalities) Yield: Y = ((x/0.28)^3)/1000 with Y in megatons of TNT and x in km.
Let's pretend we have a spherical explosion that's 4 times the height of an adult man. So 6.8 meters in diameter. About 59,930,005.83 joules. Note that we may have to halve it for being non-nuclear, and I'm not sure if it being above ground affects things.

Also Small Building Level. Some Heartless might have explosions about this big.

I'm not entirely sure about Earth Manipulation and Hurricane Creation feats, and frankly, this post is long enough already, right? They can get a yield, but I'm not sure on how to calc.

Anyway, that should give you some idea of the rough yield of several kinds of feats Heartless have performed.

Anyway, I hope this helps!
 
9-A for fodder seems surprisingly consistent.

The explosion one seems to be the best one to take, however, the Earth Manip and Hurricane creation ones can totally use a calc, as they can lead to even higher results.
 
It could be. Spring Metals also make impressively big tornados. I think this calc might help give us an idea how to calc them: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Tweester_(Mario)

Keep in mind, that Tweester is several times the height of Luigi, & Mario's official like, 5 feet tall. At minimum, that calc hits roughly 2% of Max Wall Level, & its highest yield is nearly 18% of Max Wall Level. Heartless are helped by having wider bases to their winds.

Freezing feats are also diminished if the whole body isn't frozen, and in any case, we also need good footage.

Also, Driller Moles may be nice to find footage of. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kaltias/Monty_Mole's_tunnel That feat got 2.997.660.199,2036843 Joules. (If I'm reading that right, almost 3 billion.)

We may be able to get similar ratings, depending on the speed, paths & materials for Driller Moles' burrowing. Hopefully it's not an outlier!
 
I guess just using 9-A as the standard for most Heartless seems fine as of now, right? At least after we get the tornado and the Gigas stuff calculated.
 
Anyways, it seems the Pumpkin bombs you mentioned in 358/2 Days are also a thing in KHI's Halloween Town.

However, the explosions appear to be smaller than the ones of Crimson Jazz, so they likely aren't worth a calc.
 
Bump.

After the Gigas and the tornado get a calc we can move on to the next step, creating profiles for fodder and finally upgrading Disney guys from "Unknown" to something like "9-A, possibly at least High 4-C".
 
Bobsican said:
Bump.
After the Gigas and the tornado get a calc we can move on to the next step, creating profiles for fodder and finally upgrading Disney guys from "Unknown" to something like "9-A, possibly at least High 4-C".
Click to expand...
How about the toy profiles??
 
The toys are getting their own calc as I'm sure the bosses just scaling to "normal sized" fodder is a no.

They are going to keep "possibly High 4-C" either way as of now, however.
 
We have to get the Woody and Buzz calc first.

Until then we can't.

However, I guess it's fine to scale everyone else to the 9-A Heartless stuff, as they are even weaker than Shadows.

Meaning that everyone but Woody and Buzz (Those have to wait) that are rated as of now as "Unknown", be rated as "9-A, possibly High 4-C" via scaling to the Driller Mole Heartless, with being able to keep up with Sora, Donald and Goofy as the reason for the latter rating.
 
What makes it so sure Driller Moles are weaker than Shadows? Also, do keep in mind the Crimson Jazz & the Silver Rock (recently finished) calculations got 9-B. Decently into 9-B. (SR is like, 9 or 10% of Maximum Wall Level, & CJ is in a similar range, I think.)
 
So, they are 9-A via scaling to... some fodder enemy due to freezing a human, correct? I pretty much only need the name of that fodder (if it even has one) and I'm on it.

Something like:

At least Small Building level (Comparable to, if not superior to (Insert fodder name), which was able to freeze a human, which is this level)
 
Well, IIRC, Driller Moles have weaker defenses than Shadows, let me check to be sure.

Okay, after a quick checking in the KH Wiki that appears to not be the case...

I guess only above-average Heartless would scale to Driller Moles, so just 9-B via the other stuff seems better overall.
 
Joaco0902 said:
So the hot rod feat and the bat feat?
Click to expand...
Those have to be ported to blog posts first.

For now we can use the Crimson Jazz and the Spring Metal stuff to justify 9-B for everyone that's currently rated as "Unknown" but Woody and Buzz as the low end, as once again, the rating would turn from that to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C".
 
Joaco0902 said:
So, they are 9-A via scaling to... some fodder enemy due to freezing a human, correct? I pretty much only need the name of that fodder (if it even has one) and I'm on it.
Something like:

At least Small Building level (Comparable to, if not superior to (Insert fodder name), which was able to freeze a human, which is this level)
Click to expand...
You may have been looking at this post of mine in this thread .

It links to https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#Freezing_a_Human which points out that freezing a whole, 62 kg human gets about 21,688,065 joules.

Unfortunately, Small Building Level begins at 20,920,000 joules. So freezing a HOLE human is only about 768,065 joules higher than baseline SBL.

I don't know much it differs for 358's other player characters (Potential upgrade?) but here's some footage that shows Vexen is far from having his whole body frozen:
SkaterBombAin'tNoFrozone
There's an image, too, in case you're unwilling/unable to view the video.

It's sketchy if it would make SBL.

As for the "bat feat", I'm not sure what you mean @ Joaco0902 .

I might've mentioned bat swinging speeds to help give an idea of what yields some Kinetic Energy feats can get?

Again, though, it's possible other 358 Days have Frozen states that show a higher yield.

But then again, they're all Nobodies who don't exist, right? Should we assume it's just game mechanics induced stupidity because Nobodies, not existing, don't have any water in their bodies TO freeze?
 
Also, questions:

1. Why not base Heartless scaling on recommended entry levels of worlds in the story, since that's sort of a rough, but still developer-indended guideline for the power level progression?

2. Why are Woody & Buzz exceptions to the scaling tree, assuming they scale differently from other Disney, world-specific partner charactes?
 
Well, Nobodies do have a body, they just don't "truly" exist, which is another thing, so yeah, they totally have water in there, Heartless also have NPI by being able to harm them, so there's no issue there.

They don't have Self-Sustenance beyond type 1 for a reason.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

StoneKillerz12
The Problems With Kingdom Heart's high-tier scaling (Part 1: True Kingdom Hearts Scaling)
Replies
16
Views
4K
StoneKillerz12
StoneKillerz12
Bobsican
  • Locked
I know now, without a doubt, Kingdom Hearts isn't... High 1-A!
2
Replies
78
Views
10K
VoidGoji
VoidGoji
Ayewale
  • Locked
2-B KH is a bit bad
2
Replies
63
Views
8K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
DimeUhDozen
Disney Hercules Downgrade
Replies
3
Views
440
Cropfist
Cropfist
Bobsican
Kingdom Hearts Low 1-C Ocean Between Re:Evaluation
2
Replies
78
Views
8K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Back
Top