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Tiering of KH fodder and Disney "Unknown" scaling

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Bobsican

He/Him
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Okay, so far, we know that currently there are more than 7 profiles that are currently rated as Unknown (For example, Sulley, Mike, Woody, Buzz, Mulan and Mushu, Jack Sparrow and Tarza, aka, the Seven Guardians of Scaling) because they can't scale to Sora and company, therefore, so they get "actual" tiers, discussion is needed on the tier the most basic Heartless that has been in every single game but DDD, that's right, the Shadow. Recently Imaginym (Thanks you) has made quite a lot of calculations regarding the fodder, and 9-B appears to be the most consistent value.

Heartless
Here's the current draft profile (Demon Tide is fine as it is, as it was before an actual profile with no issues.

KHIII Shadow
Also, yes, the current reasoning for 4-C has been dismissed as just hax, so input regarding where to start their feats is very appreciated.
I still have some in my mind however:

- As we can see in CoM, a single heart can make entire "worlds" from its sheer memories.

If this is right, a single "heart" is tier 4, which a single Shadow can easily threaten meaning that they could actually be tier 4 by themselves.


However, as they still harm it via hax... yeah, it's not applicable, at least for physical stats.

There's also the option of them being able to scale to Aqua while being in the Realm of Darkness, as she has to put some effort to fight them, and no restraining is involded, so the base form can still be High 4-C and MFTL+ (Possibly infinite due to lack of time axis to begin with, but that's for another CRT) while in it, however, outside of it, they are seen by fodder by all the main cast (the ones at High 4-C).

However, scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" for the ones currently at Unknow (not the fodder) may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level (Anyone with a Keyblade), even if it sounds absurd per all the current standards on the verse, while the fodder itself is 9-B as said before.

Them (Sora and company) being restrained in power is never brought up, they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding/weird by that world's standards (even if they use magic and technology anyways, as we can see very notably on San Franstokyo with Sora using Blizzaga, Flowmotion and even formchanges in a cutscene, let alone that moment where they talk about each world having their own laws and directly saying that they come from another world right behind Jack Sparrow's back, who was clearly listening), you don't see them bursting stars each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed either, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch (Aka, simply scaling like the way it's proposed above).

In a nutshell, my proposal is for KH fodder to be rated as 9-B thanks to the calcs, any Heartless in the Realm of Darkness is At least High 4-C and all the Disney characters with an "Unknown" rating get updated to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" via scaling to the Heartless fodder and Keyblade users.
 
I agree with this, although I'm not very knowledgeable in KH, so I may have misunderstood something.
 
I've never played KH before but I want wanked Woody back. Does this mean he could potentially be High 4-C again?
 
Likely not, at least per the current standards on the profiles, as if we removed that standard, everyone would be High 4-C, which is unhealthy.
 
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Scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level, even if it sounds absurd, at least on my part.

Them being restrained in power is never brought up, as they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding, you don't see them bursting start each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch.
 
Then I'm not sure there's much like world destroying we can scale the fodder to. Would have to research it more, I guess.

I might guess that it might end up like Mario & Goombas & such, where the main characters are MUCH higher-tiered than the fodder.

Bosses like Storm Rider (Survived the KE of being picked up & thrown by Sora, IIRC.) & Groundshaker (Massive size, thus, huge KE.) also can't scale to fodder due to being bosses, right? Also, I'm unsure if Heartless even should have KE, since they're MADE of darkness & non-corporeal.

Yet a cutscene in KH2 has Sora pinned by a pile of Shadows atop him, so MAYBE they have mass?

As far as actual fodder enemies, Bolt Towers are notably big. The Battleship Heartless is apparently "Heartless that fused together with a pirate ship."

But if we can't use KE anyway, we may want to look to magic & animations.

Blue Rhapshody Heartless use Magic to attack with ice like other Heartless use elements, so maybe a freezing feat on the basis of that? A Silver Rock makes an explosion when reappearing & can also just explode. Emerald Blues, Spring Metal & Malachite Bolero Heartless make tornados & such.

Crimson Jazz also make explosions, but with mines. There's also Minute Bombs, who can harm other Heartless (Quite a lot, in fact.) with their explosions, so there might be some scaling there.

Storm Bombs make a Whirlwind to pull in Roxas before exploding. The Skater Bomb's explosion freezes everything around it.

Driller Mole Heartless sort of have an AP feat for their drills, since they can burrow underground.

The journal says, in part, about Gargoyle Knights and Warriors: "looks like an ordinary statue". If they ARE actual statues we could use their mass. Possessors also possess these kinds of Heartless, but I'm not sure about the actual ordinary statues in Beast's Castle.

KH Chi's Bag o' Coal might have a notable mass, but probably not.

Water Cores can survive having their Water Shield evaporated by Fire Magic... but said Magic almost certainly comes from Aqua or Sora unless Fire Cores can do the job. Outlier?

Earth Cores MIGHT have a burrowing feat? Frost Serpents also do.

Gold Beat Heartless have, in their journal entry: "Their rapid-fire thunderstorm will electrify you if it connects, so watch for the tell and don't get too close." ....But I don't recall much actual Thunderstorms from them, & it'd be way above any of the other feats here.

The Rock Troll & Metal Troll are bosses, right?

But yeah. There you go, I skimmed the Heartless section on the Wiki, & tried to remember what little I could. Sadly, there aren't that many super impressive feats.
 
Keep in mind, it's far from comprehensive. I didn't go over EVERY Heartless, just ones I assumed would have readily tiered feats, & I mostly went by the Wiki's text.

There may be animations, & maybe other enemy Heartless, Nobodies or Unversed or such have good feats.

It may also be possible to get them a bit higher if scaling to certain bosses. Not saying Organization XIII or the like, but still.
 
We could start with Hot Rod as a low end, a car crash is easily 9-B.

As for th rest, likely the explosive ones could reach a noticeable result, but calculations are needed for those.
 
It's possible there's other Heartless, especially among those I listed.

Also, aren't Heartless canonically made of Darkness, which is massless? KE shouldn't be applicable for something with no mass.

And even if it is applicable for KE, aren't the Hot Rod & Mad Ride not much bigger than Sora? That's very small for an automobile.
 
Darkness seems to have mass considering how it's treated.

As for the size, yeah, they aren't much larger than Sora.
 
Yeah, it's a bit strange, & I'd question our assumption of intangibility for things with mass. Unfortunately, even if it is a variety of darkness with mass, we still need to find density for KE.

Perhaps the most frustrating part of trying to tier Heartless fodder is the journal. Unlike with major characters or even some bosses, it is often very... mechanical with the entries, more providing tactical info & other stuff useful for playing better against enemies in such entries.

Thinking on it, one option might be to look into the Gummi Heartless and Nobodies; They have huge vehicles & some individual ones are big. Can we scale to them? 'course, they often appear in groups, so some may be just weak.

Not to mention, anything involving pixel scaling for the Gummi Missions will be... difficult. It doesn't help that they often lack typical features of space.

That said, I think we can probably determine the size of a Gummi Ship, or maybe a part of it, & if we can use that, it might go some ways.

One notable... well, technology feat for Nobodies is a structure of theirs exploding, after Sora's ship has attacked the core a bunch.

At 3:33, in the mission Assault of the Dreadnaught: https://youtu.be/8IdUcgfQNQY?t=213

Sadly, it happens at the end of the mission, & I'd think the implication is that none of the enemies survived the explosion.


Still, looking into their vehicles, the size of their explosions, & the size of the individual Gummi Heartless & Nobodies such, we might be able to find something marginally more impressive than is typical.
 
I can agree.

However, I don't think Gummi Heartless can scale to "normal" Heartless, as the former is far bigger and uses seemingly noticeably more powerful moves overall.
 
Yeah, I think I get how you feel. Gummi Heartless & Nobody are probably different from the regular variety. Heartless & arguably Nobodies may be varied in appearance, but I can hardly remember any "regular" Heartless -not even an actual Shadow- appearing in the missions, & there's the matter of their size & probably differing statistics.

So, unless we wanna dig into more feats for Heartless/Nobodies/Bugs/Unversed in the journal or animations, the highest feats to start with SO FAR are....

....It's probably the Skater Bombs or other kind of Bombs, isn't it? The Skater & Storm Bombs will be especially "fun" to get footage of, because, besides exploding often being a desperation/suicide move, Skater/Storm Bombs are from 358/2 Days. Might be easier to try calcing the other kinds of Bombs first, since they might be easier to find footage of....

I'm a bit sleepy to feat hunt, though, much less try to calculate anything, & I haven't really done explosion calcs before, besides that.
 
I'm sure the bomb Heartless are also in KHII.

Oh well, at least now we have something to really start with.
 
Yeah. Skater & Storm Bombs are notable because they freeze stuff or make hurricanes when exploding. The latter has a vaccuum effect.

But yeah, there's several kinds of Heartless that explode, & not all in the same way.

In the event that we need to request for feats to be calculated, what priority would this be, given most enemies don't have profiles, & may not end up having them?
 
What are the summarised conclusions here?
 
@Imaginym: It would fall between priority 2 and 3.

The fodder will eventually get their own profiles, they just need something reliable to scale to in the first place.

And the hurricane one is noteworthy too, freezing usually doesn't lead to high results, but it can be kept in mind.

@Ant

Basically, we are agreeing on getting some calcs done, however, some scans are pending so the calculations can be made.
 
WOULD freezing Roxas be relevant? He's a Nobody, so while, IIRC, he has a body, but no Heart for most of his first year, isn't it the case that Nobodies "don't exist"?

Are the results of freezing a human body still 9-A if the human body is the body of someone who doesn't exist, & therefore, the body itself probably isn't there to freeze either?

I'm also curious about freezing Xion. Not necessarily because she's a Nobody, but because being made by Vexen & the visuals of her death scene suggest she was made from ice (magic).
 
That's what I'd like to know; The story says that Nobodies don't (truly) exist & such, doesn't it?

  1. Kingdom Hearts II, Yen Sid: "A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence---for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all."
....But they should be physical, given that a Nobody is created when a Heart falls to Darkness, especially from a Heartless; The Nobody is formed from the actual person's body that tends to be left behind.

It could probably just be a fancy way of saying they're not real people, despite acting like people, as Nobodies typically don't have Hearts, which any person/Somebody has.

In any case, whether or not Nobodies exist isn't essential for a revision about KH fodder tiering to deal with right away, even if there may be fodder Nobodies involved.
 
Well, Heartless already have NPI, so them hitting Roxas who technically indeed has a body can be used as a feat for him being frozen, however, in his case it seems more like just being covered in ice, rather than actually frozen.

Xion vanishing like that wasn't from ice, but rather of her simply vanishing from existence.
 
Except that she looked very much like ice & was a replica (an artificial body) made by Vexen, an Ice Manipulator? She grew a Heart some time after being created, but that she got a Heart shouldn't change that she was, physically, not entirely human.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anqS-YA3v-g
XionIce
I don't disagree that she ceased to be there, aside from maybe her Heart going to Sora (the details are fuzzy.); I'm concerned with what she's made of, not how she disappeared.

(Lol, sorry if I bothered you, Soupywolf5. 'course, freezing an actual human, being a 9-A feat, would actually be good for the fodder.)
 
In any case, I found footage of the explosions for Skater & Storm Bombs. Should occur around the timestamped times: https://youtu.be/cx61sJfnSls?t=417 Skater Bomb explodes then & a couple of other times.

https://youtu.be/I2W5p4_VD6Q?t=582 I was mistaken about Storm Bombs. They make a vortex, not a hurricane. Hopefully it's not so for other wind-using Heartless. Also, their explosion seems to be fiery rather than windy. My bad.

Not the most impressive, but maybe the other games will be more impressive.
 
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