Tiering of KH fodder and Disney "Unknown" scaling

[Bobsican]

We likely should search for something to scale their speed as a low-end.

 

[Imaginym]

Heartless in their homeworld have unknown statistics? Despite the calculations? Is this about Heartless Level or the distinction of them being Pureblood vs Emblem Heartless?

Also, some Disney characters only appear in worlds with Unversed, but eh. Are there any that appear with Nobodies?

Also, Gummi Heartless/Nobodies/Unversed should be tiered distinctly, right?

 

[Bobsican]

Gummi Heartless/Nobodies should get their own tiers, yes.

For the Disney characters, well, that's only the case for Birth by Sleep stuff , of which currently there are no profiles to speak of and no one can reasonably scale to them beyond maybe Sparky, who would need Metamorphosis (the Unversed) getting a calc in some way.

For Heartless, as the OP says, the lowest they can be is 9-B, but they won't scale to High 4-C at all unless they are bosses in some way.

 

[Imaginym]

Speed feats for the Disney characters, or for the fodder, you mean?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

the fodder.

 

[Bobsican]

Speed feats for the Disney characters, or for the fodder, you mean?

Yes, the fodder, as just having "Unknown, possibly Massively FTL+" on Disney profiles is weird.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Didn't they react to lightning in the games????/

 

[Imaginym]

Agreed. Hmmm.... I'm not sure about below that, but don't some enemies in Port Royal use guns to attack? Then again, aimdodging is a thing.

Electricity is also an option, but aside from the Gigas, unsure of the basis. Could comb through dialogue looking for statements that support feats, speed or otherwise.

 

[Bobsican]

Yeah, it should be something else than the Gigas stuff (At least for anyone not named Woody or Buzz, even then, we can't use the default MHS+ thing here for obvious reasons, so a calc of Woody dodging would be needed).

Outside of this, yeah, we'll have to look for speed stuff for them to scale too, as I'm sure there's something above subsonic they can scale too, Heartless included.

 

[Imaginym]

In theory, Chip & Dale might be a basis for reactions, since they talk during Gummi Missions, & do react to things. But since that's their job & also they're back at Disney Castle -aren't they?- it's unclear if they might not be receiving the info with a delay. Though, if they are, the timing of their dialogue helps support it not being a negligible delay.

In any case, if Gummi Stuff gets good travel speed, it MIGHT provide a reaction feat for Chip and Dale.

There's probably other stuff, though.

 

[Bobsican]

Scaling Chip and Dale to that is a no, otherwise nearly all Star Wars characters would be MFTL+ without spaceships.

Massively FTL+ can still scale to Heartless and Nobodies Sora and others meet while in their Gummi Ship, however.

 

[Imaginym]

Good to know. Guess the search continues.

 

[Bobsican]

Anyways, it seems I need staff input so the editing rule can be updated accordingly.

 

[Wokistan]

What part concerns the editing rule? I'd rather just focus on that myself

 

[Bobsican]

What part concerns the editing rule? I'd rather just focus on that myself

That one editing rule specifically about KH scaling

 

[Wokistan]

Well I don't know anything about the verse so I probably shouldn't deal with that. I thought it was just a general rule.

 

[Bobsican]

Fair enought.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[DBZMLP12345]

Apologies for the very late reply, i forgot about this, but i agree with the Revision

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here?

 

[Bobsican]

"In a nutshell, my proposal is for KH fodder to be rated as 9-B thanks to the calcs, any Heartless in the Realm of Darkness is At least High 4-C and all the Disney characters with an "Unknown" rating get updated to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" via scaling to the Heartless fodder and Keyblade users."

The above appears to be accepted, however, there hasn't been any staff input so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that the Disney characters are not portrayed as any more powerful than in their original stories within their own worlds.

 

[Bobsican]

However, scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" for the ones currently at Unknow (not the fodder) may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level (Anyone with a Keyblade), even if it sounds absurd per all the current standards on the verse, while the fodder itself is 9-B as said before.

Them (Sora and company) being restrained in power is never brought up, they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding/weird by that world's standards (even if they use magic and technology anyways, as we can see very notably on San Franstokyo with Sora using Blizzaga, Flowmotion and even formchanges in a cutscene, let alone that moment where they talk about each world having their own laws and directly saying that they come from another world right behind Jack Sparrow's back, who was clearly listening), you don't see them bursting stars each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed either, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch (Aka, simply scaling like the way it's proposed above).

Well, as we can see in the above from the OP, Ant, there's really no reason beyond sheer headcanon for them to not scale, we never cared about author intent anyways.

Them keeping 9-B is already an stretch, it's only there to avoid everyone but fodder scaling directly to High 4-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

 

[Bobsican]

I've already asked all the knowledgeable active KH members on the site, but for some reason, staff ones in particular haven't replied so far (everyone else seems to agree, however).

Maybe I should ask again?

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask some other staff members as well. We have several new discussion moderators for example.

 

[Bobsican]

Done, I hope it doesn't become too annoying.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Oh boy. I'll read through this tomorrow.

 

[ArkhamDC06]

Personnally, i don't disagree with it. I mean the Disney characters we're talking about can fight the Heartless so...

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I haven't read the comments, but the OP seems fine to me.

 

[Bobsican]

The comments don't really hold arguments (in favor or against it, IIRC), but rather development on the idea.

Let's just say the OP was pretty different before, so I'm pointing that out as otherwise you'll quickly get lost.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

BTW, I think straight up "At least High 4-C" for Disney guys may be a good idea as not only are they far above the fodder in the same way as others like Donald, but leaving the original "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" appears to bring potential scaling issues, for example, there's Sparky, who has never fought anyone beyond Terra, but he would at least scale to Stitch, who is...well, diretly scaling to others like Sora because he can leave his own world without needing help of others or a Keyblade, further supporting that being able to travel between worlds and power levels don't even relate, and that's assuming this wasn't sheer headcanon, as we all know it is as explained above.

So this is to be considered at least.

 

[Joaco0902]

What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

 

[Soupywolf5]

Don't push it

 

[Bobsican]

What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.

It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

 

[Soupywolf5]

It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.

It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

Yeah, of course not. Heh, *Disappointed noises*

 

[Joaco0902]

What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.
It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

Believe it or not I was actually going to create a 9-B Bracket called "Joaco's Big Boi Bracket" when this was finished, and I was gonna add Wall level Woody as my character :´(