Tiering of KH fodder and Disney "Unknown" scaling

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Hoping Woody gets a 9-B rating so I can have hax woody vs hax Chucky

 

[Imaginym]

While looking at another revision, I saw something that prompted me to check on Tank Topplers. https://youtu.be/ryeCCaqymN8?t=145 Not easy to find footage of them, but at about 2:25, you can see one in the back create a sizeable explosion. So that's nice for Unversed.

 

[Bobsican]

Oh boy, that explosion can definitely be used to scale fodder, a calc will have to be done, however, can you please request it at the Calculation Requests Thread?

 

[Imaginym]

A Crimson Jazz makes a big explosion using 3 mines: https://youtu.be/DslCBR4buaE?t=49

Looked up a couple of other Heartless. Looked up Spring Metal, but all I could find was a video of a a boss hack that used moveset hacks. It seems to feature Spring Metals, & they seem to be able to make impressively big tornados, like at 2:11 https://youtu.be/GBuf3gpkapA?t=131 If that's how they are in the game normally, that might be a nice feat. Maybe close to 9-A?

Unfortunately, I think we'd need footage of their feat that's more certain to not be of a hack.

I think I've seen Spring Metals in other videos, but the camera is almost never at a good view to see all of the winds they make.

 

[Bobsican]

The 9-A thing is legit (I've seen them in the game, they do actually do those at such size), however, it may need a calc.

And the Crimson Jass explosives can also be used for scaling.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

He may not be High 4-C.

But Tier 9 woody being able to fight Arthur Morgan would be funny

 

[Imaginym]

The 9-A thing is legit (I've seen them in the game, they do actually do those at such size), however, it may need a calc.
And the Crimson Jass explosives can also be used for scaling.

It may help if you can get videos of their large tornados. That said, I'm uncertain how likely it'll get past Wall Level. Check out this calc for comparison: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Tweester_(Mario) The high end got 1,654,720 joules, & Wall Level goes up to 20,920,000 joules. So those tornados need a yield around 12.64 times or more greater than that Tweester that's like, 12.23 meters high.

Not that Spring Metals don't make big winds, which helps. But we'll probably need good footage of them & a good yield on their feats.

 

[Bobsican]

It definitely isn't bigger than that, so just 9-B would be fine.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm unsure if it isn't bigger. Might be worthwhile to attempt pixel scaling to Sora. Plus, its bottom might be wider. Looks less conical.

 

[Bobsican]

I agree with that.

So far, now we have some explosions and a tornado to calc.

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah. Sadly, may still need to find footage of Minute Bombs. Unless my memory is wrong, which it could be; Point is, Heartless lack durability feats, but there is the possibility of them surviving other bomb Heartless exploding.

Unless folks can think of another way to get durability for them. (In theory, they should be able to survive exerting the amount of energy they can, so having AP, or especially SS significantly higher than Durability is weird for our Wiki.)

In any case, unless someone else wants to make the request, or calc it themselves, I might try to request the calcs later after some sleep. I'm not sure how to explosion calc, for one.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, they can just scale to their own AP.

Anyways, please ask for some calcs when you manage to compile the scans of the feats themselves when you get the time.

 

[Soupywolf5]

I don't think I've ever actually seen any profile with SS higher then their durability

 

[Imaginym]

Yeah, "glass cannons" kinda don't work with our Wiki. They're possible, but.... Most characters shouldn't have SS much higher than Durability, because most should be able to throw a punch without breaking their arm and such. 'course, when it's AP, which can be via things unrelated to physical strength like superpowers, then "glass cannons" are more possible.

Although it does bring up the concern that some of the explosion feats brought up here also seem to be suicide attacks.

 

[Bobsican]

The Heartless' explosions actually come back after exploding, can't say the same for the Unversed, however.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Not sure Explosions and Tornadoes fall under anything but AP, as it isn't really Striking Strength, but ability based.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, they are in teh epicenter, if they couldn't take it, the move would just kill them on the first attemp.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

True, but that wouldn't scale to SS, it would scale to durability.

 

[Bobsican]

I mean, Donald has High 4-C Striking Strength.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

For what reason?

 

[Bobsican]

Probably because he can do a very small amount of physical damage with his staff.

Anyways, as the tornado is made by a physical move respectively, it scaling to Durability isn't that much of an stretch.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

I guess that is understandable..?

Durability, yes, SS no.

 

[Imaginym]

So, their AP with magic shouldn't be applied to SS, despite they can surive producing the energy (presumably, & via magic) to perform those feats? And possibly despite that other fodders can survive those attacks, as with Heartless & such that damage others?

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

Durability can scale to SS, but SS doesn't scale to Durability unless they physically harm someone comparable to them.

 

[Joaco0902]

Newton's third law indicates that if, say, you were to punch something with 22KJ of force, you would need to be able to tank 22KJ of force too, otherwise you would break your arm.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Where did you get 22 Kilojoules from? ovo

 

[Imaginym]

So we'd need non-boss fodder physically damaging one another, especially without a Reaction Command, since RCs tend to be the product of Keyblade Wielders' actions, & "fodder" surviving that is probably outlierish?

 

[Bobsican]

They are fodder it's like a Goomba not going with one hit from Mario, so that's not really usable to begin with.

Anyways, yeah, SS nearly always scales to Durability because of how it works.

 

[HeadlessKramerGeoff777]

It is the reverse, not what you just said. As surviving something doesn't mean you can output that much damage.

 

[Bobsican]

Oops, just rethinked, yeah, it's the other way around, sorry for the miswording.

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

Wait, so if we have possibly High 4-C for the fodder, then do we have all the old woody and buzz matches back

 

[Soupywolf5]

I don't think he's going to be scaling to the same AP if he does become High 4-C again?

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

We would get back the Thanos VS Kingdom hearts buzz match again. Since buzz hilariously oneshots Tier 7 dura ass thanos

 

[Soupywolf5]

I think that was actually called a stomp (You mean Buzz vs. Complete Gauntlet Thanos, right?) as the rules for what defined a stomp had changed at the time, although if we do get it back then we'll have a reminder of just how terrible they are for High 4-Cs (So perfection)

 

[Bobsican]

I don't think he's going to be scaling to the same AP if he does become High 4-C again?

He would, actually.

 

[Soupywolf5]

Oh sweet

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.

 

[TheSpeedster96]

I've already put my input in the Discord GC awhile back, no Heartless scale to High 4-C. The absolute best I'm fine with them being is being High 4-C to 4-A with hax only due to them being able to absorb hearts, which contain many stars , and they're confirmed to beanother dimension .

 

[Bobsican]

Bump.