Tier 6 Nasuverse Discussion Thread

[KnightOfSunlight]

Gawain, Spartacus, Mordred, Arturia with mana burst or under Rin and Kerry, Altera with her skills active, a few others

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Somebody with STR higher than B+

Herc probably won't be High 6-C

But Lip has A+ Strength, so she may be.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

****, my comment got eaten.

So to say what I was going to say again - yes, I literally mentioned that I know Vaporization is more likely, please read what I said. BUT, literally anything else that scales to Servant physical prowess that we have found is Tier 7. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have had a trouble and made two entire threads finding feats to scale them.


Feel free to go ahead and show me how many tier 6-C calcs that scale to Servant physical abilities there are if you are saying there are multiple consistent ones. My whole point with the possibly/likely is that it'd be a safer option than relying on a single result when almost everything else that can scale to Servants physically is Tier 7.

And AGAIN, Archer's Caladbolg isn't comparable to even normal Caladbolg, much less the special Fergus Lily Caladbolg. That option is completely faulty.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Ooohh you weren't necessarily saying NP stat wise, but through Str stat??? Though that's still a bit odd... We can also use Gawain to scale strength stats since we do know how much of a multiplier it is.

So you believe Fergus Lily caladbolg is irrelevant??? Or shouldn't be used???? Which caladbolg are you referring to for scaling??


What physical prowess feats are tier 7 btw???


Also.. were not basing any of this off of a single result are we???

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Wait, what about the Noble Phantasms themselves ? Will most of them scale to Country Level ? The high tier ones I mean

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Most calcs we ended up doing for stuff was tier 7, like the line Excalibur left in the Fuyuki Map or statenents about destroying mountains with strikes (which wkuld need a mountain comparable or slightly smaller than Mount Fuji to give 7-A results if we used fragmentation). My point is that there is only one calc that really scales them to 6-C, so 7-A, likely 6-C felt safer for me.

And I say 1 calc only because I am not sold on Caladbolg 2. Consider this: Caliburn killed Berserker 7 times, breaking his axesword in the process as well. This was a degraded Caliburn used by a tired Shirou and Saber, a Saber that can only take 2 lives off Berserk if she tries to ineffectually Excalibur Heracles in a bad ending. The very same Axesword that doesn't even get scrapped from Heracles usual strength nor from Caladbolg 2. And you could say, "well Caliburn can apparently make an attack comparable to Excalibur if used by a perfect king", and that's true, but that line also specifies the sword would likely break from Arthuria's raw magical energy. This degraded version, however, does not do this. And furthermore, the best feat we have for Caladbolg 2 that I can remember is nearly killing Medea even flying by far away from her and destroying her shield comparable to Heracles' skin... the issue with this is that that happened by bending space, Shirou even felt teleporting would have done no good, which would be dura negging hax. Heracles just hit the projectile head on and destroyed it. So I can't really scale it to normal Caladbolg, much less amped Caladbolg used by Fergus Lily.

 

[John985]

Somebody with STR higher than B+
Herc probably won't be High 6-C

But Lip has A+ Strength, so she may be.

So just need to list all servant that have A STR?

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Somebody with STR higher than B+
Herc probably won't be High 6-C

But Lip has A+ Strength, so she may be.

So just need to list all servant that have A STR?

Aren't A STR a bit weaker than B+?

 

[John985]

A
Saber Alter , Ceasar , d'Eo , Benkei , Cu Proto , Lancelot Berserker , Spartacus , Vlad III Berserker , Darius , Fergus , Santa Arturia , Lancer Arturia Alter , Arjuna , Beowulf , Cu Berserker , Rama , Jeanne Alter , Shute , Bedi , MHXA , Arthur Proto , Mecha Eli , Eresh , Arturia(Rin), Arjuna Alter

A+ and above
Kintoki , Hercules , Asterios , Caligula , Kintoki Rider , Gorgo , Lobo , Passionlip , Penth , Sigurd, Protea

read the parameter rule, + modifier are temporary.

Do I add the link? added

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Lifting Strength for Servants with A Rank Strength should also be upgraded, at least to Class M, based on the feat of True Archer. He was buried into a skyscraper height rock formation in a ravine, and he made the collapsed rock formation explode like a volcanic eruption by jumping, where someone standing on top of the ravine had to crane her neck up to see the numerous giant boulders being launched.

Context of feat

Crystal Hill was the tallest building in Snowfield. It was also a first-class hotel, and home to the largest casino in the city. It was said that the breadth and luxury of its facilities were a match for even the finest Las Vegas casinos. ... At the wind's center was a single arrow. It was headed toward the top floor of a skyscraper in the heart of Snowfield — Crystal Hill. ... The man stood on a rise that reached almost the same elevation as the top floor of Crystal Hill. A lean, wiry man, just over two meters tall. His hands clutched a bow. It was larger than an ordinary longbow, but it seemed a little undersized in the tall man's hands. ... North Snowfield. On the high slope of a ravine. ... With a malicious grin, Gilgamesh deployed his Gate of Babylon over a wide area of the rise. The entrances to his treasury, deployed so as to surround the archer on all sides, began to twist like a tornado. Then they fired innumerable Noble Phantasms with the force of machine guns, raising a veritable whirlwind of lights and impacts high above the eminence. ... The sound of the impact seemed like nothing less than an explosion. The archer's body was launched with the force of a bullet to lodge itself in the side of another small eminence, which then began to crumble. After a moment of silence, a simple fact dominated — the girl's slender arm had sent a man on whom the Noble Phantasms Gilgamesh fired from his Gate of Bayblon had had no effect flying. The girl glared at the pile of rubble that had buried the archer alive with eyes filled with a powerful hate, then glanced behind her at Tine and Gilgamesh, and declared: "That fiend is my prey. Do not interfere." ... That instant, the mysterious Archer, who one blow from the female Heroic Spirit had buried under a mountain of rubble, had sent that rubble flying like a volcanic eruption. Numerous giant boulders had were flung so high into the air that Tine had to crane her neck to see them. Then several of the stones suddenly shattered, and arrows shrouded in vast quantities of magical energy appeared from among the fragments. The mysterious Archer had flown up with the rubble, and loosed countless arrows from behind the soaring rocks. The rain of arrows, each one accompanied by its own tornado, sped down at Gilgamesh and the female Heroic Spirit, pulling the shards of the shattered boulders into the swirling vacuums as they came. ... The female Heroic Spirit held out her right hand beside herself, and a horse appeared there. She then lightly mounted it, and vigorously road it off up the ravine. The cloth wrapped around her arm was still overflowing with concentrated divinity. She circulated the potent magical energy into the horse through its bridle. Horse and rider, moving as a single organism, rapidly threaded their way through the rain of gales. Massive chunks of rubble had begun to fall back to earth. She began to gallop lightly over them, eventually riding across even the boulders still in mid air. Witnessing the female Heroic Spirit traveling backwards up the waterfall of rubble, Tine was sure.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

(walls of texts)

So basically, it's that Caladbolg II's copy is even weaker than the copy of Caliburn, so it's too downgraded to scale as a Broken Phantasm?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I just find it honestly weird to scale to an A Rank NP, making the whole idea of NP in general being trump cards and stronger than normal attacks by a lot a bit laughable. Its either an inconsistency, or Caladbolg 2 is not as powerful as it's rank would make us think.

Since the start, I considered the best option to use both values for the smaller crater calc and just clarify that most all Servants could scale to is tier 7, but the Vaporization calc is consistent with how Ron works and is very close to the alternative high 7-A they would be back scaling from, hence Likely 6-C.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

The scary thing? You make sense.

But then, there aren't much calcs that scale to physicals, save for the casual Rhongomyshot, which sounds too high.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

How is it too high?


Btw it's fairly well implied that Archers version of Caladbolg is B-Rank or far less. Hercules has an ability to negate B-Rank no's, doesn't he?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Yeah? We know that though, one mountain is only like 1 gigaton though.
Do you have the qute for mountainous ground though? Mountain means numerous mountains, specifically an area with numerous mountains. Blowing away the entire mountainous area got me like 170 gigatons.

Question regarding this... Shouldn't that entire Rocky highland zone area be the same mountain instead of a "Mountainous region"?? that entire area is commonly refferred to as just a "Mountain"

 

[John985]

It's A rank

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well most casual Servant feats are around Tier 7

Except if you count the Ishtar calc as a casual usage of her NP, which she didn't even release the True Name, there aren't any known Tier 6 feats

Herc's God Hand negate things B-Ranked, but that would mean he doesn't scale directly to it (LSir actually made sense regarding this)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

YOu can be well above Tier 7 and still have Mountain level range/aoe.

• "Due to God Hand, he is able to charge without even breaking to think about defense, ignoring various attacks that are unable to harm him even when aimed at vital spots like his temples. He is still instinctively able to tell that a dangerous attack is incoming. He ignores Archer's Caladbolg II at first after having shrugged of his earlier attacks, but immediately intercepts it after sensing the danger to him. The ability grants eleven extra lives and protection from attacks B rank or lower. Any time he is killed by an A rank attack or above, he is revived and granted immunity from that attack in the future. He must be killed twelve times in order to be fully defeated. Due to having Ilya as a Master, he is able to also regenerate lost lives over time." [1]

Does that mean Hercules was killed once by Caladbolg??

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Except if you count the Ishtar calc as a casual usage of her NP, which she didn't even release the True Name, there aren't any known Tier 6 feats

Full power, or Casual NP usages???

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Arjuna's NP in Extella Link should be Calc'able probably violent fragmentaiton, but in Karna Vs Arjuna in Link he focused all that energy into a rasengan and shot a kamehameha blast at Karna's VaS. Which then became an eternal stalemate until death do them apart. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj_XGiplb6s

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

YOu can be well above Tier 7 and still have Mountain level range/aoe.

• "Due to God Hand, he is able to charge without even breaking to think about defense, ignoring various attacks that are unable to harm him even when aimed at vital spots like his temples. He is still instinctively able to tell that a dangerous attack is incoming. He ignores Archer's Caladbolg II at first after having shrugged of his earlier attacks, but immediately intercepts it after sensing the danger to him. The ability grants eleven extra lives and protection from attacks B rank or lower. Any time he is killed by an A rank attack or above, he is revived and granted immunity from that attack in the future. He must be killed twelve times in order to be fully defeated. Due to having Ilya as a Master, he is able to also regenerate lost lives over time." [1]

Does that mean Hercules was killed once by Caladbolg??

Didn't he intercept it before it could kill him?

And yeah, the Ishtar feat, she didn't release the NPs True Name, she just shot it, but Mash later said it was her NP

 

[John985]

https://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update 129/

The "arrow" is released.
Archer's arrows have not had any effect so far.
The black giant ignores it, as if saying it is not worth blocking.
But at that moment…

The black giant turns his back to us and attacks the "arrow" coming at him with all his might

And it also say A rank

"Berserker… He is unwounded even after taking a direct hit from a Rank-A Noble Phantasm

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So Caladbolg II Scales to Hercules strength physically?

Also, Carl Rex Magnus NP animation might be calc'able, but the game makes everything so hard to look like it could be calc'cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08z-pwKlHcc

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Btw Karna while having Jinako as a master, and weakened by already using VS survived an attack from Excalibur Galatine from Gawain with Leo as his master.

 

[John985]

So Caladbolg II Scales to Hercules strength physically?
Also, Carl Rex Magnus NP animation might be calc'able, but the game makes everything so hard to look like it could be calc'cable https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08z-pwKlHcc

The other time he did that is from weakend Excalibur, so might be.

Everytime I look at that NP, it looks like Demonbane.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Karna straight up used his fist aganist Gawain to start the fight. gawain had to backhand Karna's Laser Eyes away. It looks like Gawains sword connected a few times on Karna. Note: This is CCC Karna with Jinako as a Master so he shouldn't be able to concpetually reduce the damage. https://************.com/chapter/fateextra_ccc_foxtail/chapter_30

Edit: yeah Karna was using his Arms to Block causal blows from gawain's sword.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Karna summons his lance.

Gawain states that each blow with that lance can actually kill him, and he parries them all. His (Karna's) Armor gets nullified by Leo as he tries to summon it.

https://************.com/chapter/fateextra_ccc_foxtail/chapter_31

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Through Physical Strength Alone, Gawain was able to back hand a part of Karna's NP away. Note: He was buffed by Numeral of the Saints.

https://************.com/chapter/fateextra_ccc_foxtail/chapter_32

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Herc would scale from Caladbolg II, that one was also a Made-in-China class copy, but is a Broken Phantasm, and was stated to be equal to an A-Rank Noble Phantasm. Not sure how to compare it to Caladbolg.

But as for Gawain VS Karna, that's be for scaling stuffs, we're in the 400 comment phase now, we better conclude the validity of Tier 6 feats, then talk scaling later.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Gawain is able to deflect, and parry, Suzaka Gozen's 2nd Noble Phantasm right after his fight with Karna. https://************.com/chapter/fateextra_ccc_foxtail/chapter_38

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

its not just for scaling. Im showing issues with the "Physical Prowess" or possible Inconsistencies.

Gawain has feats of Backhanding away noble phantasms similarly to Herc. Though the Backhanding away the Karna Np feat is kind of significant. he also did the same with his Laser Eyes.

Karna fought Gawain at first with just his fist without being buffed by his armor. he was blocking, and parrying blows from Gawain with only his fist and arms.

Im showing strength feats.

Edit: While in an extremely weakened state Karna was able to tank Excalibur Galatine as well.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

That seems to show consistency with high enough STR Parameter means you can start to deflect NP-Level attacks off

IIRC Excalibur is also like A++ Rank NP, so Herc's not deflecting that easy like the weakened one

...

That would likely mean we can scale A-Rank NP to peeps with A or above STR all along?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

...........


I'm not sold on tier 7-A or high 7-A...

 

[Dangai_Ichigo]

Me neither...

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Well... I recall most Tier 7 feats are casual.

And 6-C feats are done by high end level Servants, just look at who did the feats that qualify for 6-C

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Agree with Diinou.

The best argument for being 7-A is that the feats we have seen are regularly Tier 7, yet anything in 7-A/High 7-A or lower can be easily done by a 6-C, and most of these Tier 7 feats are casual, or lack context that we would need (Salter's scratch on Fuyuki could have been Excali, or Mana Burst, we don't know and can't assume). Additionally, it could be a AoE thing, where the servants merely have a lower AoE than the actual power of the moves.

Furthermore, if we have so many 7-A/Tier 7 feats laying around, why haven't we used any of them? Not even being rude, I'm geniunely interested in this.

 

[Schnee_One]

I assume it's because people were simply tired of revisions and just went with the Angra Mainyu calc.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Indeed Schnee. It took a Thread and some to find and settle on a feat that can scale to Servant AP

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

How history repeats itself

 

[Schnee_One]

I think solidly toer 6 is the best bet.