Tien Shinhan upgrade that should've been done a long time ago

[Vizer04]

Tien Shinhan's Neo-Kikohō should be 4-C since it managed to pin Semi-Perfect Cell down by continuously using the attack, but this badly drained and nearly killed him. But why do i say it should be specifically 4-C?

Android 16 couldn't even move Cell after he absorbed 17:

Tien on the other hand, was able to pin Cell down with the Neo-Kikohō , several times:

And no, Cell wasn't holding back, he was desperately trying to stop 18 from escaping:

Tien did far more damage to Cell than 16 did and therefore should scale to 16's AP, which is 4-C.

Now, i'll answer some questions from those who disagree with this upgrade:

Why didn't he use the Neo-Kikohō against A19 and A20?

Because they could absorb energy attacks through their palms.

Also, A19 was absorbing Goku's energy so Tien couldn't use the attack without killing Goku (who at that point wasn't a Super Saiyan btw). Then Vegeta came and told everyone to not interfere so Tien had no chance to use his attack without risking himself (Gero one-shotted Piccolo when he tried to enter the fight)

Why didn't he use the Neo-Kikohō against A17 and A18?

At first, because Vegeta wanted to fight against A18 and he wouldn't let anyone interfere or help him. After that, he couldn't use the Neo-Kikohō because A18 broke Vegeta's arm and they were very close so the attack would've harmed Vegeta too.

Suddenly, Trunks decided to help his father and A17 tried to stop him (only to be followed by Piccolo). All of that happened very fast and Tien didn't have time to use the Neo-Kikohō. On top of that, Piccolo and Trunks were too close to the Androids and they would've been harmed by the attack too.

Also, there's the obvious argument that everyone has said at this point: PIS, just the way Krillin doesn't spam Destructo Discs, because it would ruin the plot.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Following for now

 

[Coolboy6]

Definitely agreed.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

I agree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am going to have to agree with what Gilad said; this seems like an outlier/PIS. Tien being able to use his Tri Beam several times without killing himself would have meant he could have used it against 19 and 20, or later on 17 and 18. Not to mention, Dr Gero would have sensed something in him he was capable of such a technique. It has no right to be even above a pre RoSaT Vegeta let alone Piccolo or 16.

 

[Vizer04]

Tien being able to use his Tri Beam several times without killing himself would have meant he could have used it against 19 and 20, or later on 17 and 18.

Why risking killing himself (without the possibility of being resurrected with Earth Dragon Balls btw) when there were two Super Saiyans and one strong Namekian in the battlefield?

Not to mention, Dr Gero would have sensed something in him he was capable of such a technique.

Why do you assume that? Do you have any proof that Gero can sense a technique that even Cell was surprised by?

 

[DivineAura44]

I am going to have to agree with what Gilad said; this seems like an outlier/PIS. Tien being able to use his Tri Beam several times without killing himself would have meant he could have used it against 19 and 20, or later on 17 and 18. Not to mention, Dr Gero would have sensed something in him he was capable of such a technique. It has no right to be even above a pre RoSaT Vegeta let alone Piccolo or 16.

Tri Beam is a move which nearly killed the user. Moves like that has shown to supremely increase the users attack. Kaioken, the self destruct from Saibaman even hurting let alone killing Yamcha and the self destruct from Chiatzou to name a few.

 

[Vizer04]

the self destruct from Saibaman hurting Yamcha

killing Yamcha

 

[DivineAura44]

killing Yamcha

I edited after I reviewed it but you didn't have to rub it in. Yamcha > Zeno every day.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yamcha > Zeno

Jaco>Both but anyways following

 

[Vizer04]

Bump?

 

[DivineAura44]

Bump?

Pretty sure you gotta wait 6-12 hours.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Agreed, the real PIS is him not using it against the androids, sacrifice techniques are always shown to be far above the user's power, hell even techniques that don't kill you and simple require some charging can wound superior opponents.

Krillin scales to 2nd frieza with kiezan and might scale to nappa later.

 

[DivineAura44]

Agreed, the real PIS is him not using it against the androids, sacrifice techniques are always shown to be far above the user's power, hell even techniques that don't kill you and simple require some charging can wound superior opponents.

Krillin scales to 2nd frieza with kiezan and might scale to nappa later.

That's exactly what I was gonna say but I was waiting for it to be brought up.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Nierre]

viz fra :3

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah with this I agree

 

[Vizer04]

Well, it seems that many people agree with this :3

 

[DivineAura44]

Well, it seems that many people agree with this :3

Should probably go get some more opinions and take it from there.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

4-C with Ki-ko-ho, shouldn't scale to his normal AP due to obvious reasons. (Losing to 17, who is less than 1/2 of S-PC)

 

[Vizer04]

4-C with Ki-ko-ho, shouldn't scale to his normal AP due to obvious reasons. (Losing to 17, who is less than 1/2 of S-PC)

Obviously not, it would be something like this:

Tien Shinhan: Planet level (Not too far behind Krillin at this time), Star level+ with Kikoho (Managed to pin Semi-Perfect Cell down by continuously using the attack, but this badly drained and nearly killed him)

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I still don't agree with 4-C+ Kikoho, as Tien clearly did not hurt Cell. Tien fired multiple Kikohos against Semi-Perfect Cell and was fine after using it a single time

Tien's Kikoho being >>> Android 16 would mean that with a single Kikoho he could one shot both Android 17 and 18 at once, finishing the battle right there when SSJ Vegeta was defeated, or even earlier he could've killed Dr. Gero and Android 19 with minimal effort, but this was clearly not the case

 

[Vizer04]

I still don't agree with 4-C+ Kikoho, as Tien clearly did not hurt Cell. Tien fired multiple Kikohos against Semi-Perfect Cell and was fine after using it a single time

Tien's Kikoho being >>> Android 16 would mean that with a single Kikoho he could one shot both Android 17 and 18 at once, finishing the battle right there when SSJ Vegeta was defeated, or even earlier he could've killed Dr. Gero and Android 19 with minimal effort, but this was clearly not the case

I already explained why he didn't use it before.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I still don't agree with 4-C+ Kikoho, as Tien clearly did not hurt Cell. Tien fired multiple Kikohos against Semi-Perfect Cell and was fine after using it a single time

It's not scaled directly to cell, so not hurting him is not really a counter

Tien's Kikoho being >>> Android 16 would mean that with a single Kikoho he could one shot both Android 17 and 18 at once, finishing the battle right there when SSJ Vegeta was defeated, or even earlier he could've killed Dr. Gero and Android 19 with minimal effort, but this was clearly not the case

Argument from Incredulity.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It's not scaled directly to cell, so not hurting him is not really a counter

Then why would it scale to 4-C at all? And it is definitely a counter since even assuming the Kikoho is >>> Android 16 is wrong

Argument from Incredulity.

How so when Tien didn't use it (and knew that it wouldn't be be able to beat them) to defeat either Android 19 and 20 or Android 17 and 18?

And we know for a fact that Tien could survive one Kikoho attack so if he could beat the Androids with it he would definitely do it, as an attack with this AP will vaporize Android 19 and 20 and one shot Android 17 and Android 18. Instead that never happened and Tien got stomped by Android 17

Even the story literally say it never hurted Cell and only briefly held him back

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Then why would it scale to 4-C at all? And it is definitely a counter

It is not.
He scales above Android 16, thus, he is 4-C with Kikoho because his attack could do more to Cell than a punch from 16.

since even assuming the Kikoho is >>> Android 16 is wrong

Argument from Incredulity, again.

How so when Tien didn't use it (and knew that it wouldn't be be able to beat them) to defeat either Android 19 and 20 or Android 17 and 18?

Toriyama is dumb.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

It is not.
He scales above Android 16, thus, he is 4-C with Kikoho because his attack could do more to Cell than a punch from 16.

Both attacks did nothing. He shouldn't scale to 16 based on just that

Argument from Incredulity, again.

What evidence you have that he does scale? The attack didn't do more damage because both didn't hurt Cell at all

Toriyama is dumb.

Assuming Tien >>> Android 16 is even dumber. Why would Tien use Kikoho specifically to stall Semi-Perfect Cell but not to one shot either Androids?

Tien literally couldn't do anything to 17 and knew they lost despite knowing of the Kikoho, yet somehow he can damage Semi-Perfect Cell? Yeah I don't think so.

 

[Vizer04]

Both attacks did nothing. He shouldn't scale to 16 based on just that

16 couldn't even move Cell unlike Tien.

What evidence you have that he does scale? The attack didn't do more damage because both didn't hurt Cell at all

The fact that he could restrain him unlike 16. Why didn't 16 fight Cell so 18 could escape? Because he was massively weaker than Cell.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

16 couldn't even move Cell unlike Tien.

Cell was caught off guard by Tien's attacks, and he wasn't even damaged, just knocked back.

Besides, everyone pretty much confirms that Goku

The fact that he could restrain him unlike 16. Why didn't 16 fight Cell so 18 could escape? Because he was massively weaker than Cell.

16 literally did fight Cell. It just didn't work
And Tien couldn't stop Imperfect Cell or Android 17 when he came to that place even before Cell turned into Semi-Perfect Cell

 

[Vizer04]

Cell was caught off guard by Tien's attacks

He was caught off guard five times?

he wasn't even damaged, just knocked back

Which is more than 16 could do to Cell...

16 literally did fight Cell. It just didn't work

So? You just proved my point, 16 tried to stop Cell from absorbing 18 and failed. Tien did the same and 18 (and 16) succesfully escaped from the island.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

You also seem to forget that even when Tien fought the Androids, who were after Goku, and in case of Android 19 and 20, would've killed him too if they got the chance, Tien didn't thought to use the Kikoho on them, even though if it is actually >>> Android 16, then it would vaporize both 19 and 20 with a single blast

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yes, I agree 100% with what Gilad is saying here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Both attacks did nothing. He shouldn't scale to 16 based on just that

What evidence you have that he does scale? The attack didn't do more damage because both didn't hurt Cell at all.

16's punch didn't have enough force to push Cell.
Tien's Kikoho has enough force to push Cell.
It's not quantum physics, Sonic man.

Assuming Tien >>> Android 16 is even dumber.

We're not assuming that.

Why would Tien use Kikoho specifically to stall Semi-Perfect Cell but not to one shot either Androids?

Tien literally couldn't do anything to 17 and knew they lost despite knowing of the Kikoho, yet somehow he can damage Semi-Perfect Cell? Yeah I don't think so.

Because it would be inconvenient to the plot if the androids were defeated like that.
What you think about the scaling is irrelevant, it has evidence.

 

[JustSomeWeirdo]

and in case of Android 19 and 20

They would've just absorbed it

 

[Vizer04]

You also seem to forget that even when Tien fought the Androids, who were after Goku, and in case of Android 19 and 20, would've killed him too if they got the chance, Tien didn't thought to use the Kikoho on them, even though if it is actually >>> Android 16, then it would vaporize both 19 and 20 with a single blast

You also seem to forget that Krillin didn't use a Destructo Disc against the Androids...

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

They would've just absorbed it

Android 17 and Android 18 wouldn't be able to absorb it and the blast would one shot both of them if it is indeed >>> Android 16

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Gilad

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Characters being dumb is not an excuse to say their useful attacks are suddenly useless.

Do you have any idea how many times Krillin used Taiyoken against someone who would've died to a Kienzan, and then DIDN'T use a Kienzan because the plot needed the character to fulfill another purpose or die by someone else's hand? Against Dodoria, or Second Form Freeza being prime examples.

What? He didn't use it against Dodoria, and it cut Freeza's tail afterwards? THAT MEANS DESTRUCTO DISK WOULDN'T DO SHIT TO DODORIA!!!

No, you don't assume lack of use means said thing is useless, that's just bad writing.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

16's punch didn't have enough force to push Cell.
Tien's Kikoho has enough force to push Cell.
It's not quantum physics, Sonic man.

Unless you want me to call you Pokémon man, don't call me that

We're not assuming that.

Because it would be inconvenient to the plot if the androids were defeated like that.
What you think about the scaling is irrelevant, it has evidence.

I don't care about convenience or not. Why would Tien suddenly remember that he has the Kikoho against Semi-Perfect Cell but not use it to onw shot Android 17 and Android 18 right then and there? The humans also pretty much confirm Goku is their only hope, and even Kami says that Piccolo needs to merge with him because none of them can beat the Androids

 

[Vizer04]

Unless you want me to call you Pokémon man, don't call me that

We should all calm down.

I don't care about convenience or not. Why would Tien suddenly remember that he has the Kikoho against Semi-Perfect Cell but not use it to onw shot Android 17 and Android 18 right then and there?

Because Vegeta is too arrogant to let someone help him during a fight.