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DBZ Tien 4-C Downgrade

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Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Why not? The Androids can't sense energy, they're far slower and weaker than Cell and they will not expect something like that. Again, if Tien would really have something that strong to defeat the Androids right there, they would've made a plan to make it work.

It's not unrealistic that they could pull something like that off. Cell literally snuck up on everyone from behind, including Piccolo who can sense energy. The Androids have no way to sense the presence of the Z fighters (otherwise instead of asking where Goku is, they would simply fly to where he's located), and it's not unrealistic to say that Tien could sneak on them and get into a position. If he managed to do it with Cell, it mean that's not something that hard, and this is especially true when they don't see it coming (which they won't since they can't sense him. Even Cell only sensed it at the last moment before Tien striked)
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1. This is appeal to wishful thinking. You aren't getting anywhere with that.
2. This is appeal to wishful thinking. You aren't getting anywhere with that.
 
DivineAura44 said:
1. This is appeal to wishful thinking. You aren't getting anywhere with that.
2. This is appeal to wishful thinking. You aren't getting anywhere with that.
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How is that wishful thinking when it's based on something we know the Z Fighters can do and have pull off such things before

You on the on the other hand just says "no he can't do it lol" and then doesn't explain why they can't come up with a plan for Tien to use that immensly powerful Shin Kikoho to stop the Androids and Cell before they become a bigger threat, and why everyone says that their only hope is the Saiyans going to the time chamber (and before that saying they have nothing that they can do against them) instead of Tien using his power to defeat them, especially when he can survive several attacks

Even if you ignore my arguments, the idea of Tien having a power that eclipses that of the Androids just contradicts everything the story leads to before, which is why it makes no sense. If he's have that much power, and know his Shin-Kikoho can defeat them, he would've mentioned that
 
Hard disagree with the downgrade due to reasons already stated tbh.

Cell wasn't caught off guard, and Tien wouldn't just throw his life away when Goku and Vegeta were still there, unless he had absolutely no choice
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
How is that wishful thinking when it's based on something we know the Z Fighters can do and have pull off such things before

You on the on the other hand just says "no he can't do it lol" and then doesn't explain why they can't come up with a plan for Tien to use that immensly powerful Shin Kikoho to stop the Androids and Cell before they become a bigger threat, and why everyone says that their only hope is the Saiyans going to the time chamber (and before that saying they have nothing that they can do against them) instead of Tien using his power to defeat them, especially when he can survive several attacks

Even if you ignore my arguments, the idea of Tien having a power that eclipses that of the Androids just contradicts everything the story leads to before, which is why it makes no sense. If he's have that much power, and know his Shin-Kikoho can defeat them, he would've mentioned that
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Krillin also has a technique that would have killed them too, I don't see why that's such a big deal. It's not like it scales to their regular attacks
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
How is that wishful thinking when it's based on something we know the Z Fighters can do and have pull off such things before

You on the on the other hand just says "no he can't do it lol" and then doesn't explain why they can't come up with a plan for Tien to use that immensly powerful Shin Kikoho to stop the Androids and Cell before they become a bigger threat, and why everyone says that their only hope is the Saiyans going to the time chamber (and before that saying they have nothing that they can do against them) instead of Tien using his power to defeat them, especially when he can survive several attacks

Even if you ignore my arguments, the idea of Tien having a power that eclipses that of the Androids just contradicts everything the story leads to before, which is why it makes no sense. If he's have that much power, and know his Shin-Kikoho can defeat them, he would've mentioned that
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Once again I'm not going circular with you. I've made it very clear why Tien was not landing this move. You have no proof he can land this move, you just think he might be able to. That's an Appeal to Wishful Thinking.
 
Admittedly this is weird.

Him being that strong with one attack does seem kinda weird given that version of Cell would've been the strongest yet, making one question why didn't he use it before on the Androids? We act like they aren't cocky like Cell was too. 17 at least.

But then again, Cell was affected and he clearly was sort of afraid iirc it's not like he had a smile on the whole time knowing it would and is doing nothing.

Another classic example of DBZ having some amazing power scaling in it's own show as well as truly amazing writing that makes it hard for us to judge certain character's feats.

Maybe we just call the entire thing PIS both ways and remove it anyways for the absolutely wonky scenario of it all.
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
Admittedly this is weird.

Him being that strong with one attack does seem kinda weird given that version of Cell would've been the strongest yet, making one question why didn't he use it before on the Androids? We act like they aren't cocky like Cell was too. 17 at least.

But then again, Cell was affected and he clearly was sort of afraid iirc it's not like he had a smile on the whole time knowing it would and is doing nothing.

Another classic example of DBZ having some amazing power scaling in it's own show as well as truly amazing writing that makes it hard for us to judge certain character's feats.

Maybe we just call the entire thing PIS both ways and remove it anyways for the absolutely wonky scenario of it all.
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Once again, 2 questions.
1. Why are we acting as if he NEEDS to Shin Kikoho 17 & 18?
2. Why are we assuming it'd work? 17 and 18 aren't as cocky as Cell and there is 2 of them.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Once again, 2 questions.
1. Why are we acting as if he NEEDS to Shin Kikoho 17 & 18?
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Because if the Shin-Kikoho would be that powerful. Tien would have mention it after Vegeta lost to 18. Back at this point, they had no hope to beating them and they weren't aware of the HBTC yet. If Tien's Shin Kikoho would be that strong. Tien would've said that he has a technique that might work but it'll be hard to execute it, rather than just saying they got no chance no matter what they do (and considering he used it against Nappa even at the cost of his life, if that would've been enough to give them a chance, he'd at least try to use it
DivineAura44 said:
2. Why are we assuming it'd work? 17 and 18 aren't as cocky as Cell and there is 2 of them.
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The Androids also can't sense energy nor do they know about the Shin-Kikoho. They are even more likely than Cell to be caught off guard by the attack (and this happened when Piccolo used Hellzone Grenade on 17). 17, 18 and 16 were also completely unaware of Cell approaching them until it was too late

Regardless, at this point we shouls just wait for mods to evaluate this
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Because if the Shin-Kikoho would be that powerful. Tien would have mention it after Vegeta lost to 18. Back at this point, they had no hope to beating them and they weren't aware of the HBTC yet. If Tien's Shin Kikoho would be that strong. Tien would've said that he has a technique that might work but it'll be hard to execute it, rather than just saying they got no chance no matter what they do (and considering he used it against Nappa even at the cost of his life, if that would've been enough to give them a chance, he'd at least try to use it
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There was also a chance that Goku could use a Spirit Bomb to kill both of the androids. However Tien said it's impossible. Why is that? A spirit bomb has shown the strength to even take down the likes of Majin Buu so why couldn't he beat Androids with the technique? Simple answer, he could have but the chances were slim enough to rule out with the moves long charging time. Stop being semantical and taking his words so literally.

The Androids also can't sense energy nor do they know about the Shin-Kikoho. They are even more likely than Cell to be caught off guard by the attack (and this happened when Piccolo used Hellzone Grenade on 17). 17, 18 and 16 were also completely unaware of Cell approaching them until it was too late
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Once again, this is just an appeal to wishful thinking.
 
DivineAura44 said:
There was also a chance that Goku could use a Spirit Bomb to kill both of the androids.
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No there wasn't. Goku said it himself when he woke up. Read the manga. Goku believed he can't win either meaning it was not an option
DivineAura44 said:
However Tien said it's impossible. Why is that? A spirit bomb has shown the strength to even take down the likes of Majin Buu so why couldn't he beat Androids with the technique?
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Funny how you appeal to wishful thinking yourself. Also you forget that the Spirit Bomb that finished Majin Buu was fueled by the energy of everyone on Earth
DivineAura44 said:
Simple answer, he could have but the chances were slim enough to rule out with the moves long charging time. Stop being semantical and taking his words so literally.
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It's better than applying headcanon like you do. Again, wishful thinking on your part. You want to believe Tien had a chance but for some reason didn't do it to support your rating and choose to go with headcanon rather than an actual statements of Tien saying they can't win (and Piccolo confirming it)
DivineAura44 said:
Once again, this is just an appeal to wishful thinking.
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Just saying that wouldn't get you anywhere. Two can play in this game, and when your only argument against my points is to claim wishful thinking, you can only go so far

And also, what part of what I said isn't true? Can the Androids sense energy to notice Tien? No they can't. Do they know about his technique? Also no. Would Tien bet his life to stop the Androids even if he'd die? Absolutely yes. If he did it with Nappa and Cell, he'd do it here too if it'll be their only way to maybe win, no matter how small their chance is (since I remind you, Tien did the Kikoho on Nappa despite knowing he stood no chance and lost an arm earlier in that battle)

You want to keep 4-C so badly you're willing to ignore everyrhing just so you wouldn't have to deal with the possibility to you are wrong

However, this discussion is pointless, at this point, both sides presented their points and we should wait for mods to evaluate this
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
No there wasn't. Goku said it himself when he woke up. Read the manga. Goku believed he can't win either meaning it was not an option
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He couldn't because it wouldn't work, not because it literally wasn't an option. Once again, this move worked against Majin Buu.
Funny how you appeal to wishful thinking yourself. Also you forget that the Spirit Bomb that finished Majin Buu was fueled by the energy of everyone on Earth
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1. It was clearly a rhetorical question. 2. If we are gonna be semantic as you are, there is a chance every human on Earth would have just randomly put there hands up and given their energy to Goku unknowningly.
It's better than applying headcanon like you do. Again, wishful thinking on your part. You want to believe Tien had a chance but for some reason didn't do it to support your rating and choose to go with headcanon rather than an actual statements of Tien saying they can't win (and Piccolo confirming it)
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I don't want to believe he didn't do it. I know he didn't do it lol. Not the same thing.
And also, what part of what I said isn't true? Can the Androids sense energy to notice Tien? No they can't. Do they know about his technique? Also no. Would Tien bet his life to stop the Androids even if he'd die? Absolutely yes. If he did it with Nappa and Cell, he'd do it here too if it'll be their only way to maybe win, no matter how small their chance is (since I remind you, Tien did the Kikoho on Nappa despite knowing he stood no chance and lost an arm earlier in that battle)
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I'm just not responding to the rest of that because it's not an argument, it's just you going on about how I'm being hypocritical. This is just Texas Sharpshooter.
Can they sense energy? No. But they can just look. 18 was dismantling her opponent, all she has to do look upwards. Do they know about his technique? No. But is it relevant? No. Would Tien do it either way? Maybe. We never see him use this move other when he is thrusted into the action.
 
Can someone close this already? @DivineAura44 already debunked the OP arguments and there's no need to keep this thread open any longer.

Unlike the opposition side, most of the users that agreed with the downgrade didn't bring new arguments to the discussion, it's only been a succession of "agree FRA" and nothing more.
 
Vizer04 said:
Can someone close this already? @DivineAura44 already debunked the OP arguments and there's no need to keep this thread open any longer.

Unlike the opposition side, most of the users that agreed with the downgrade didn't bring new arguments to the discussion, it's only been a succession of "agree FRA" and nothing more.
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Ask a staff member to close it.
 
Yes, I have been waiting for staff to comment on these. And, several staff members actually agreed with this CRT, but I wanted some more staff evaluation for this
 
So this:

Planet level (Not too far behind Krillin at this time), Star level+ with Shin Kikoho (Managed to pin Semi-Perfect Cell down by continuously using the attack which makes his attack power superior to Android 16 who couldn't even move Cell[1], but this badly drained and nearly killed him)
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Would become:

Planet level (Not too far behind Krillin at this time), higher with Shin Kikoho (Managed to pin Semi-Perfect Cell down by continuously using the attack however this badly drained and nearly killed him)
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I think this would probably be okay.

Same thing should apply to his Buu Saga key.
 
Kinda forgot about this thread, but considering at least 3 staff members as well as many users agreed on this downgrade, If it's fine then I'll edit Tien's page and the thread can be closed
 
Well it's been almost a week with no one responding, and since at least 3 staff agreed as well as many others, I'll say it's fine to edit and request it to be closed
 
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