DBZ Tien 4-C Downgrade

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I disagree with the downgrade.
1. Prove he would have been able to hit 17 and 18 with his Shin Kihoho (and that it would have been smart to.)

According to the supporters of this, Tien's Kikoho is >>> Android 16, who is equal to Imperfect Cell. Said Cell casually broke Piccolo's neck with a single strike and almost killed him right there. Piccolo is equal to 17 as we saw earlier

A Shin Kikoho with that much power would obliterate both Androids

2. Prove Piccolo knew the capabilities of the Shin Kihoho.

Piccolo can sense ki, and knows all of Tien's attacks. He can also sense that if Tien has hidden power reserved so if his Kikoho was that strong, he'd know

3. Maybe because he didn't ya know actually beat Cell.
4. All of this can be explained away by PIS.

You can't explain everything by PIS, especially when everything in the narrative points against this. So you're telling me he had this much power and simply forgot to use it until he conveniently remembered that he has it? Ok then

5. Even going of the logic of "he was caught off guard", he should have been prepared for the next one. The Shin Kihoho has long gaps between usage. He should have at least recovered by the 3rd one and moved out of the way.

He wasn't though. Cell was only able to look up before getting hit by the next one

 

[DivineAura44]

According to the supporters of this, Tien's Kikoho is >>> Android 16, who is equal to Imperfect Cell. Said Cell casually broke Piccolo's neck with a single strike and almost killed him right there. Piccolo is equal to 17 as we saw earlier

A Shin Kikoho with that much power would obliterate both Androids

Piccolo can sense ki, and knows all of Tien's attacks. He can also sense that if Tien has hidden power reserved so if his Kikoho was that strong, he'd know

You can't explain everything by PIS, especially when everything in the narrative points against this. So you're telling me he had this much power and simply forgot to use it until he conveniently remembered that he has it? Ok then

He wasn't though. Cell was only able to look up before getting hit by the next one

1. I know that. However he would somehow have to catch both in the crossfire. Pretty hard to do when 18 was easily handling her competition.
2. He however would not be able to sense the attack multiplier of Shin Kihoho, a move he's never seen afaik.
3. No, I'm arguing he didn't use it seeing as there was Goku and Vegeta there.
4. And he should have recovered by that moment. This move is not a combo or something. He should have evaded immediately after the first few, that's the natural reaction.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. That's if you argue he could somehow catch both in the crossfire.

The Androids are close together, and the Kikoho has a pretty big range. He could definitely do it

2. He however would not be able to sense the attack multiplier of Shin Kihoho, a move he's never seen afaik.

He literally did saw it in the Saiyan Saga

3. No, I'm arguing he didn't use it seeing as there was Goku and Vegeta there.

Tien literally said after Vegeta was defeated by Android 18 that none of them stood a chance, even with Goku. And they only were acknowledged of the Time Chamber's existence 3 days after that battle.

They didn't even know what to do against them by this point. If Tien really had such power to even eclipse that of Android 16 and Imperfect Cell, then Android 18 and 17 wouldn't have been an issue as all they'd need is to bring Tien into a position to snipe both of them with a Kikoho

4. And he should have recovered by that moment. This move is not a combo or something. He should have evaded immediately after the first few, that's the natural reaction.

What he should've done =/= What in fact happened. The fact is that Cell did NOT recovered from the initial attack by that point was pummeled down by subsequent hits.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

He literally did saw it in the Saiyan Saga

That was a regular Tri-Beam.

 

[DivineAura44]

The Androids are close together, and the Kikoho has a pretty big range. He could definitely do it

He literally did saw it in the Saiyan Saga

Tien literally said after Vegeta was defeated by Android 18 that none of them stood a chance, even with Goku. And they only were acknowledged of the Time Chamber's existence 3 days after that battle.

They didn't even know what to do against them by this point. If Tien really had such power to even eclipse that of Android 16 and Imperfect Cell, then Android 18 and 17 wouldn't have been an issue as all they'd need is to bring Tien into a position to snipe both of them with a Kikoho

What he should've done =/= What in fact happened. The fact is that Cell did NOT recovered from the initial attack by that point was pummeled down by subsequent hits.

1. As I stated, 18 was destroying her opponent. She would have noticed near immediately.
2. Iirc that was the regular Kikoho.
3. None of them had a chance to defeat them. Your argument assumes that they could lure them and one wouldn't notice.
4. Yes, he didn't recover because he wasn't JUST caught off guard. The move actually affected him.

 

[DivineAura44]

Gilad refuses to believe that story exists and I don't understand why.

 

[Galaxi789]

why do we take into account what Piccolo and Vegeta say when always considered useless humans besides Piccolo could not know ten had a reserved technique

 

[DivineAura44]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/5/56/Sacrifice_-_Cell_vs_Tri-Beam_2.PNG/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20180616200423

Cell clearly realizing the move he's getting hit by and trying to escape.

 

[Coolboy6]

Tien being 4-C with the Kikoho makes no sense whatsoever, and here's why.

First, Tien can sense energy and know exactly how strong people like SSJ Vegeta were when fighting Android 18, however, after the battle Tien said that even with Goku's power, they can't defeat Android 18 and Android 17, and that includes himself too since he knows how strong his Kikoho, and knows it wouldn't help to win against them

Tien couldn’t use his most powerful move in that situation since he gets drained after using it, plus there’s also a long charge time and the risk of getting blitzed by faster opponents

Another point is that later, just before Piccolo fights Android 17, he tells the other humans (Tien included) that there's no point to let them fight the Androids. Piccolo is also well aware of all of Tien's techniques and is aware of how powerful he is.

Again, he would get blitzed if Tien tried to fight them 1v2 so he wouldn’t have enough time to use his kikoho

Besides, as their one hope to defeat the Androids and Cell, the heroes all agreed that the Saiyans going to the time chamber is their only way to win, meaning that Tien using the Kikoho will not be able to defeat them. And for reference, Android 16 = Imperfect Cell >>> Android 17 = Piccolo > Android 18 > SSJ Vegeta

All of this proves that Tien did NOT have enough power with the Kikoho to even overwhelm the Androids, let alone Cell who is far above both of them

Like I said before, speed blitz risk and the other reasons I mentioned before

Going back to the feat itself, when Cell was taking Android 16's punch, Cell expected the punch and reacted to it, however, when Tien fired his Kikoho, Cell was caught off guard and couldn't brace himself in time, thus getting pinned to the ground. Tien had to also fire his Kikohos constantly to pin down Cell without him escaping, as if he'd allow Cell to brace himself for the attack, it wouldn't work

So my proposal is to simply get the 4-C rating removed and replace it with "far higher" rating

He was hit many times by Tien with many opportunities to defend himself yet he was still pushed back so I doubt he was off guard

Disagree with the thread

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Tien couldn’t use his most powerful move in that situation since he gets drained after using it, plus there’s also a long charge time and the risk of getting blitzed by faster opponents

That's just not true. Tien can survive one use of the Kikoho and if that would really have that much power, the fighters could've planned a situation where Tien could ambush the two Androids and snipe them with a well timed Kikoho

Again, he would get blitzed if Tien tried to fight them 1v2 so he wouldn’t have enough time to use his kikoho

Like how Cell blitzed him when he used it? Oh wait

Like I said before, speed blitz risk and the other reasons I mentioned before

Again, if Cell was caught off guard, the Androids could be as well

He was hit many times by Tien with many opportunities to defend himself yet he was still pushed back so I doubt he was off guard

He was, he literally couldn't defend himself and this is why Tien had to fire them so quickly, or else Cell would escape

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

why do we take into account what Piccolo and Vegeta say when always considered useless humans besides Piccolo could not know ten had a reserved technique

Piccolo literally do know about the Kikoho. He saw it in the Saiyan Saga

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. As I stated, 18 was destroying her opponent. She would have noticed near immediately.

It doesn't matter. If Tien really had that much power, they could've made a plan to ambush the Androids after the battle and snipe both of them with a well timed Kikoho.

2. Iirc that was the regular Kikoho.

There's no difference. Even in the story it's not stated to be a new technique

3. None of them had a chance to defeat them. Your argument assumes that they could lure them and one wouldn't notice.

The Androids can't sense energy, so they could easily hide and shoot them that way. If Tien managed to do it with Cell, it would've been even easier with the Androids

4. Yes, he didn't recover because he wasn't JUST caught off guard. The move actually affected him.

It affected him BECAUSE he was caught off guard. Unless you also want to upgrade Sorbet to 3-A with his laser for piercing off guard SSB Goku or Base Goku to Buuhan's level by cutting him in half when he was off guard

Cell was only affected because Tien caught him by surprise, and this is why it took him long time to recover and couldn't brace himself for future attacks in time

 

[Coolboy6]

That's just not true. Tien can survive one use of the Kikoho and if that would really have that much power, the fighters could've planned a situation where Tien could ambush the two Androids and snipe them with a well timed Kikoho

He couldn’t survive one use in the Saiyan saga since he was using all his power to do so

Like how Cell blitzed him when he used it? Oh wait

He could have blitzed him moments before using it is what I mean’t, not during. Plus I’m pretty sure that attack increases attack speed and not reaction speed

Again, if Cell was caught off guard, the Androids could be as well

He was, he literally couldn't defend himself and this is why Tien had to fire them so quickly, or else Cell would escape

He had many opportunities to stonewall those attacks yet he didn’t even though he was flying right at those blasts that hit him many times

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

He couldn’t survive one use in the Saiyan saga since he was using all his power to do so

Tien improved a lot since the Saiyan Saga with his techniques, similarly to how Master Roshi's Mafuba don't kill him anymore

He could have blitzed him moments before using it is what I mean’t, not during. Plus I’m pretty sure that attack increases attack speed and not reaction speed

Cell was battling Android 16 before Tien fired the attack. He couldn't have blitzed him since the moment he noticed Tien it was too late

He had many opportunities to stonewall those attacks yet he didn’t even though he was flying right at those blasts that hit him many times

Cell still couldn't brace himself in time to stop Tien from attacking. Flying doesn't mean he was on guard or had time to brace himself

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Flower man's points make perfect sense. I disagree with the downgrade.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Do y'all realize that the Tri-Beam used in the Saiyan Saga was completely different from the one used in the Android Saga?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It was literally the Neo Tri-Beam he used in Saiyan Saga; which was where he rapid fired it until he depleted his entire life force but did no real damage to Nappa. It was actually the same one he used on Semi-Perfect Cell, though he trained to the point where it simply made him lose consciousness and didn't kill him.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

It was literally the Neo Tri-Beam he used in Saiyan Saga; which was where he rapid fired it until he depleted his entire life force but did no real damage to Nappa

It did not look like rapid fire to me. It just looked like a regular blast.

 

[Coolboy6]

Do y'all realize that the Tri-Beam used in the Saiyan Saga was completely different from the one used in the Android Saga?

I get that lmfao, I’m saying that both version depleted one’s life force in a different way which is still risky either way

 

[DivineAura44]

It was literally the Neo Tri-Beam he used in Saiyan Saga; which was where he rapid fired it until he depleted his entire life force but did no real damage to Nappa. It was actually the same one he used on Semi-Perfect Cell, though he trained to the point where it simply made him lose consciousness and didn't kill him.

Bro who is telling you this? He used the regular Tri-Beam back then.

 

[DivineAura44]

It doesn't matter. If Tien really had that much power, they could've made a plan to ambush the Androids after the battle and snipe both of them with a well timed Kikoho.

There's no difference. Even in the story it's not stated to be a new technique

The Androids can't sense energy, so they could easily hide and shoot them that way. If Tien managed to do it with Cell, it would've been even easier with the Androids

It affected him BECAUSE he was caught off guard. Unless you also want to upgrade Sorbet to 3-A with his laser for piercing off guard SSB Goku or Base Goku to Buuhan's level by cutting him in half when he was off guard

Cell was only affected because Tien caught him by surprise, and this is why it took him long time to recover and couldn't brace himself for future attacks in time

1. So this is just getting circular. Might as well drop this and let staff analyze. It's clear they wouldn't have gotten that chance.
2. That's textbook argument from silence.
3. It would have been 10x harder considering Cell is way more cocky and there was one of him.
4. Sorbet caught Goku off guard and heavily weakened. Goku caught Buuhan off guard as you stated. Big difference however. Both of those were 1 attack. Cell however is a difference. He did try to escape, he failed. It was visibly paining him.

 

[Vizer04]

It affected him BECAUSE he was caught off guard.

Excuse me, when did they mention he was caught off guard? It's never stated in the manga, not by Cell or anyone else. In fact, Cell himself admited that he was badly injured by the Shin Kikoho and he didn't said he was caught off guard by the attack or anything like that.

 

[Vizer04]

Do y'all realize that the Tri-Beam used in the Saiyan Saga was completely different from the one used in the Android Saga?

Yeah, Gilad keeps ignoring that point for some reasn.

 

[DivineAura44]

Yeah, Gilad keeps ignoring that point for some reasn.

Because this massively upgrades Tien above Yamcha, which is not true. Yamcha solos.

 

[DivineAura44]

Somebody @ Matthew_Schroeder, we can use his ability to reject threads to our advantage.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Excuse me, when did they mention he was caught off guard? It's never stated in the manga, not by Cell or anyone else. In fact, Cell himself admited that he was badly injured by the Shin Kikoho and he didn't said he was caught off guard by the attack or anything like that.

He didn't need to say anything, this is clearly shown. You seem to be under the impression that if something isn't stated, it doesn't exist which is very wrong. Visual feats exist too and Cell was clearly shown to be caught off guard. There's no mentioning because it is very obvious

 

[DivineAura44]

He didn't need to say anything, this is clearly shown. You seem to be under the impression that if something isn't stated, it doesn't exist which is very wrong.

That's hilarious coming from you. Not to mention it ignores like half of his post.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That's hilarious coming from you.

And from you too, given that you and the rest of the supporters for 4-C Tien consistently ignore everything that came in the story and narrative before this, such as everyone saying that they have no hope to defeat the Androids in their current state, while if Tien has such overwhelming power already, they'd have this technique, especially since one use won't kill him and would be more than enough to defeat both Androids (and that's not even talking about Dr. Gero and Android 19 before them, who are even weaker, and while 19 was fighting Goku, Tien could easily get into a position to destroy Android 20 if he'd be that powerful)

Not to mention it ignores like half of his post.

No? He literally said that Cell wasn't caught off guard because the manga didn't say so when it was clearly obvious

 

[DivineAura44]

And from you too, given that you and the rest of the supporters for 4-C Tien consistently ignore everything that came in the story and narrative before this, such as everyone saying that they have no hope to defeat the Androids in their current state, while if Tien has such overwhelming power already, they'd have this technique, especially since one use won't kill him and would be more than enough to defeat both Androids (and that's not even talking about Dr. Gero and Android 19 before them, who are even weaker, and while 19 was fighting Goku, Tien could easily get into a position to destroy Android 20 if he'd be that powerful)

A technique no one but Tien knew about. It's like you refuse to understand Shin Kikoho isn't Kikoho. He couldn't do it to 19 or 20 as they can absorb energy through their wrist. And there was no point since both Goku and Vegeta were stronger than the androids. Why are you ignoring this obvious fact?

 

[Vizer04]

He didn't need to say anything, this is clearly shown. You seem to be under the impression that if something isn't stated, it doesn't exist which is very wrong. Visual feats exist too and Cell was clearly shown to be caught off guard. There's no mentioning because it is very obvious

So, you admit that you're making shit up based on assumptions, got it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So, you admit that you're making shit up based on assumptions, got it.

Uh no, I'm not assuming. You can clearly see it in the panels when he got hit

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

A technique no one but Tien knew about. It's like you refuse to understand Shin Kikoho isn't Kikoho. He couldn't do it to 19 or 20 as they can absorb energy through their wrist. And there was no point since both Goku and Vegeta were stronger than the androids. Why are you ignoring this obvious fact?

19 and 20 can get overloaded with energy, like how Vegeta did to 19 (and then tore his arms off), and also, they need to: 1) Be on guard to figure out what's going on and 2) Use their arms to absorb ki, which won't happen if they're caught off guard

You sure love to fixiate on nitpicks don't you, since that's not even the main argument. Tien's Shin Kikoho according to you would be more than strong enough to defeat both Android 18 and Android 17 at once if Tien could get an opening to defeat it. That would mean they would have a clear strategy to bring Tien to them and lure them so Tien could get an opening to strike them both, eliminating them without the two of them noticing. Tien also know how strong his technique is, so if he'd know how strong it is compared to 17 and 18, he would've said that he could've helped them with his Shin-Kikoho, rather than outright saying none of them have any chance to beat them

When Piccolo also says to Tien to get away since they will not be able to help, Tien could've said that his technique could be strong enough to fight them and fight too, or at least try to help, but he doesn't do it, since he knows that even with this technique, it wouldn't do anything to them, disproving 4-C Tien

 

[DivineAura44]

19 and 20 can get overloaded with energy, like how Vegeta did to 19 (and then tore his arms off), and also, they need to: 1) Be on guard to figure out what's going on and 2) Use their arms to absorb ki, which won't happen if they're caught off guard

You sure love to fixiate on nitpicks don't you, since that's not even the main argument. Tien's Shin Kikoho according to you would be more than strong enough to defeat both Android 18 and Android 17 at once if Tien could get an opening to defeat it. That would mean they would have a clear strategy to bring Tien to them and lure them so Tien could get an opening to strike them both, eliminating them without the two of them noticing. Tien also know how strong his technique is, so if he'd know how strong it is compared to 17 and 18, he would've said that he could've helped them with his Shin-Kikoho, rather than outright saying none of them have any chance to beat them

When Piccolo also says to Tien to get away since they will not be able to help, Tien could've said that his technique could be strong enough to fight them and fight too, or at least try to help, but he doesn't do it, since he knows that even with this technique, it wouldn't do anything to them, disproving 4-C Tien

1. There is no way for Tien to have known that...
2. Once again, I'm not continuing that. It's just going circular. There was no one in the group who could contest either for Tien to get off his Shin Kikoho before they realized.
3. Or because he knows he wouldn't be able to hit them with the Shin Kikoho. This is just a false dichotomy.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. There is no way for Tien to have known that...

Yes he could. He could roughly see how strong the Androids were based on how SSJ Vegeta performed against them so he could figure out that his technique would be very strong compared to the power they showed against the Z fighters

2. Once again, I'm not continuing that. It's just going circular. There was no one in the group who could contest either for Tien to get off his Shin Kikoho before they realized.

Tien himself could since he knows how strong his technique is, and if it was really that strong, Tien could've said that as a way to defeat them

3. Or because he knows he wouldn't be able to hit them with the Shin Kikoho. This is just a false dichotomy.

If he could hit Cell with it, who can sense energy and is vastly stronger and faster than them, then in the right circumstances, he could definitely do the same to the Androids who can't sense energy and wouldn't notice him

 

[DivineAura44]

Yes he could. He could roughly see how strong the Androids were based on how SSJ Vegeta performed against them so he could figure out that his technique would be very strong compared to the power they showed against the Z fighters

Tien himself could since he knows how strong his technique is, and if it was really that strong, Tien could've said that as a way to defeat them

If he could hit Cell with it, who can sense energy and is vastly stronger and faster than them, then in the right circumstances, he could definitely do the same to the Androids who can't sense energy and wouldn't notice him

1. How does this at all relate to my point? This doesn't mean Tien could know it would overload him. And once again, he had no reason to.
2. Tien would not be able to fight 18/17 and charge up his blast long enough to catch both in the blast.
3. There's 2 of them. That's a big difference to Cell who was on his lonesome. Also that's an appeal to wishful thinking.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Oh hey, downgrade thread

What's the argument this time around?

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Oh hey, downgrade thread

What's the argument this time around?

I'm too lazy to explain. Sorry, tech.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1. How does this at all relate to my point? This doesn't mean Tien could know it would overload him. And once again, he had no reason to.

What? I was talking about 17 and 18 here, not 19 and 20

2. Tien would not be able to fight 18/17 and charge up his blast long enough to catch both in the blast.

He was not able to fight Cell either, yet he still fired the attack. He doesn't even need to fight at all, just ambush them, and then when they go into a certain position that will allow Tien to strike, he then would immediately snipe them and defeat them with a single attack. No need for direct confrontation or a fight

3. There's 2 of them. That's a big difference to Cell who was on his lonesome. Also that's an appeal to wishful thinking.

And these two can't sense energy so if Tien sneaks on them and charges his Shin-Kikoho, they wouldn't know until it's too late

 

[DivineAura44]

What? I was talking about 17 and 18 here, not 19 and 20

He was not able to fight Cell either, yet he still fired the attack. He doesn't even need to fight at all, just ambush them, and then when they go into a certain position that will allow Tien to strike, he then would immediately snipe them and defeat them with a single attack. No need for direct confrontation or a fight

And these two can't sense energy so if Tien sneaks on them and charges his Shin-Kikoho, they wouldn't know until it's too late

1. Well that's my bad, my point was responding to you talking about 19 and 20 so when you responded to it, I assumed you were talking about the same topic. We can drop this.
2. I think you misunderstood my point but it doesn't matter, I'll just respond to this. This is assuming they can ever get in that position. For the love of all things holy, drop this.
3. That's once again, an assumption. You have zero proof it could ever get to this point or that they wouldn't have dodged once it did.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

2. I think you misunderstood my point but it doesn't matter, I'll just respond to this. This is assuming they can ever get in that position. For the love of all things holy, drop this.

Why not? The Androids can't sense energy, they're far slower and weaker than Cell and they will not expect something like that. Again, if Tien would really have something that strong to defeat the Androids right there, they would've made a plan to make it work.

3. That's once again, an assumption. You have zero proof it could ever get to this point or that they wouldn't have dodged once it did.

It's not unrealistic that they could pull something like that off. Cell literally snuck up on everyone from behind, including Piccolo who can sense energy. The Androids have no way to sense the presence of the Z fighters (otherwise instead of asking where Goku is, they would simply fly to where he's located), and it's not unrealistic to say that Tien could sneak on them and get into a position. If he managed to do it with Cell, it mean that's not something that hard, and this is especially true when they don't see it coming (which they won't since they can't sense him. Even Cell only sensed it at the last moment before Tien striked)