Tien Shinhan High 4-C upgrade

[Vizer04]

Tien Shinhan should have a High 4-C rating while using the Tri-Beam attack since he used it to push Semi-Perfect Cell into the ground, allowing 16 and 18 to escape. This technique badly drained Tien and nearly killed him.

Cell was unfazed by 16's punch:

Tien pushed Cell into the ground with the Tri-Beam. Cell wasn't able to fly away even when he desperately wanted to catch 18:

Tien Shinhan didn't use the Tri-Beam against 19 and 20 because he saw 19 absorbing the Kamehameha:

Tien Shinhan didn't use the Tri-Beam against 17 and 18 because he never had a chance to use it. Vegeta and the others were in very close proximity to the Androids and would've gotten caught up in the attack:

They also didn't know the full extent of 17 and 18's abilities. For all they knew, they could absorb energy just like 19 and 20 instead of having infinite energy.

Agree: 8 (@Vizer04, @TegamiBachi25, @Bernkastelll, @Celestial, @CloverDragon03, @Just_Butchering, @Nierre and @MasqueTLDF)

Neutral: 1 (@Damage3245)

Disagree: 3 (@DarkDragonMedeus, @Gilad_Hyperstar and @RenderGK)

 

[Dalesean027]

This never EVER nearly killed Cell, he was just being pushed down but was otherwise unharmed by the beam

 

[Vizer04]

This never EVER nearly killed Cell, he was just being pushed down but was otherwise unharmed by the beam

He was visibly hurt and that's more than anything 16 could do.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This never EVER nearly killed Cell, he was just being pushed down but was otherwise unharmed by the beam

The "nearly killed" thing is about Tien himself, not Cell.

He's arguing that because Cell wasn't moved by 16's attacks but was by Tien's Tri-Beam, it should be >16.

 

[Dalesean027]

The "nearly killed" thing is about Tien himself, not Cell.

Ah okay his wording needs fixing then

He was visibly hurt and that's more than anything 16 could do.

Still tho Cell is unharmed he is literally just being pushed down

 

[Just_Butchering]

Ah okay his wording needs fixing then
Still tho Cell is unharmed he is literally just being pushed down

I think the point still stands, Tien's Tribeam did more than 16's punch could. Even if he didn't hurt Cell at all, he should scales above 16 with that technique specifically

 

[Dalesean027]

I think the point still stands, Tien's Tribeam did more than 16's punch could. Even if he didn't hurt Cell at all, he should scales above 16 with that technique specifically

I mean sure ig it just feels iffy to me since we're essentially saying tien 1 shot kills the rest of the squad pre-time chamber with this but like I do see the logic

 

[Just_Butchering]

I mean sure ig it just feels iffy to me since we're essentially saying tien 1 shot kills the rest of the squad pre-time chamber with this but like I do see the logic

And Krillin's Kienzan is also OP af and he never uses it or when he uses it he misses or some shit lol

It's just plot shafting the humans(?

 

[TegamiBachi25]

One of the scan you used is anime DBZ but assuming it happens the same as manga, I'm willing to take your word for it, since both have same plotline with Toei anime having filler in between such as Krillin tricking Cell at one point. Not mod, but seems to make sense. So I agree

Might also scale to Toei Anime Tien with Kikoho in 3-C to Toei Semi Perfect Cell if the rest of the human z fighters (yamcha, tien, and chiaotsu) ever get a profile .

 

[Ednaxel2]

One of the scan you used is anime DBZ but assuming it happens the same as manga, I'm willing to take your word for it, since both have same plotline with Toei anime having filler in between such as Krillin tricking Cell at one point. Not mod, but seems to make sense. So I agree

Yeah it happens

 

[Ednaxel2]

Might also scale to Toei Anime Tien with Kikoho in 3-C to Toei Semi Perfect Cell if the rest of the human z fighters (yamcha, tien, and chiaotsu) ever get a profile .

They have extra stuff too, like fighting the Ginyu force, and Yamcha keeping up with Olibu

 

[Just_Butchering]

They have extra stuff too, like fighting the Ginyu force, and Yamcha keeping up with Olibu

Keeping up? I think he clapped him lol. Also I think Krillin briefly fought Kid Buu or some lol

 

[Vizer04]

Might also scale to Toei Anime Tien with Kikoho in 3-C to Toei Semi Perfect Cell

I... didn't think of that. If we ever make a Toei profile for him he should have that rating, yes.

 

[Bernkastelll]

I agree

 

[BlackeJan]

I think the point still stands, Tien's Tribeam did more than 16's punch could. Even if he didn't hurt Cell at all, he should scales above 16 with that technique specifically

Unless this means that their attack can be augmented through ki cause Android 16 >>>>> Tien but Tie using his best attacks could push down Cell but 16’s punch couldn’t do anything

 

[CelestialVortex01]

Well, I can see a High 4-C rating but via Tri-Beam

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Tien used to have the rating but it was removed for various reasons. First of all, it didn't really do significant damage to Semi-Perfect Cell, it mostly just delayed the inevitable. The Tri Beam seemed to more so cause short term paralysis rather than actually do any real damage; and Tien himself openly admits he doesn't stand a chance and is far weaker than the Saiyans or Piccolo. And even if it had grounds for downscaling, it would still be within the realm of inconsistency/outlier.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Tien used to have the rating but it was removed for various reasons. First of all, it didn't really do significant damage to Semi-Perfect Cell, it mostly just delayed the inevitable. The Tri Beam seemed to more so cause short term paralysis rather than actually do any real damage; and Tien himself openly admits he doesn't stand a chance and is far weaker than the Saiyans or Piccolo. And even if it had grounds for downscaling, it would still be within the realm of inconsistency/outlier.

The argument isn't for downscaling or anything like that, it's just that it did more to Semi-Perfect Cell than a punch from Android 16 could, thus scaling the Neo Tri-Beam above Android 16. It wouldn't be an outlier either, as it's legit the only time Tien uses this technique in Z

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not against this proposal; I've advocated before that DBZ characters can output much higher levels of AP with special attacks sometimes like the Kikoho or charged-up Kamehameha, etc. Will reserve judgement till I see any more responses.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm not against this proposal; I've advocated before that DBZ characters can output much higher levels of AP with special attacks sometimes like the Kikoho or charged-up Kamehameha, etc. Will reserve judgement till I see any more responses.

There are definitely cases where this should be done, yes. My concern admittedly is the extent to which this is done, which is something I don't entirely agree with in terms of how it's being done now

Stuff like Neo Tri-Beam, Final Explosion, and the Final Flash against Cell though? Yeah absolutely

 

[DivineAura44]

I'm not crazy right? Like we did this EXACT thread before, right??

 

[DivineAura44]

Tien used to have the rating but it was removed for various reasons. First of all, it didn't really do significant damage to Semi-Perfect Cell, it mostly just delayed the inevitable. The Tri Beam seemed to more so cause short term paralysis rather than actually do any real damage;

The argument (at least if it was the same as before) isn't that he's able to damage Cell, it's that he had a bigger effect than the Androids (via being able to stun him) therefore Tien (w/ Tri-Beam) > Androids > Tien (regular).

Tien himself openly admits he doesn't stand a chance and is far weaker than the Saiyans or Piccolo. And even if it had grounds for downscaling, it would still be within the realm of inconsistency/outlier.

The reason he says he doesn't stand a chance is because the move takes a lot of energy from Tien so he wouldn't be able to do enough to kill Cell before regeneration, just harm him. Unlike the saiyans who could sustain their AP.

It's not an outlier to say that the move which drains all of the life energy from the user would multiply it to a level beyond his normals. It's in no way an outlier because you have no other times Tien has used this move.

Meanwhile other self harming techniques like Vegeta's Final Explosion, Saibaman's Self Destruct, and Chiaotzu's Self Destruct hurt or even killed users who stomp levels above them.



TL;DR: None of these arguments hold up and I debunked them back when they were first made.

Edit: The argument that got Tien downgraded had nothing to do with any of these. The argument came from Tien saying he'd stand no chance against the Androids which I can debunk again if necessary.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm not crazy right? Like we did this EXACT thread before, right??

Yup

 

[DivineAura44]

Yup

Just message Gilad and we can really redo this thread

 

[Vizer04]

The Super Saiyans and Super Namekian were strong enough to (supposedly) take care of the Android threat. Tien wasn't going to just use a technique that could kill him with no possibility of wishing him back with Earth's Dragon Balls.

The moment Cell became an even bigger threat for the Z-Fighters, Tien immediately took action.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I'm still opposed to it for the same reasons as last time. It doesn't make sense for Tien to have power to one shot Android 17 and 18 and not use it, or just do it to Gero and 19 who are even weaker

Cell was never even harmed by the Kikoho, all it did is just knock it back, so scaling that above 16 is ridiculous

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

or just do it to Gero and 19 who are even weaker

 

[Dust_Collector]

I'm still opposed to it for the same reasons as last time. It doesn't make sense for Tien to have power to one shot Android 17 and 18 and not use it, or just do it to Gero and 19 who are even weaker

Tien (And most the characters in this arc) being stupid isn't a great argument, plus in the case of Gero and 19 Vegeta and Piccolo were clowning them (Plus like others including OP have said, ki absorbtion would put a stop to it anyway). They all decided to let Vegeta and 18 go one on one and only jumped in when Trunks and 17 jumped in and he very clearly didn't get much of a chance to try anything before getting dunked on as oppossed to Cell where there was nobody else to threaten Cell and he had a bit of time to charge up the attack before Cell tried doing anything.

Cell was never even harmed by the Kikoho, all it did is just knock it back, so scaling that above 16 is ridiculous

Cell visibily winces when being hit, you can tell it's affecting him even if the damage isn't too substainsal which is a lot more than I can say for 16's dinky ass punch that didn't even tickle Cell.

 

[DivineAura44]

I'm still opposed to it for the same reasons as last time. It doesn't make sense for Tien to have power to one shot Android 17 and 18 and not use it, or just do it to Gero and 19 who are even weaker

Cell was never even harmed by the Kikoho, all it did is just knock it back, so scaling that above 16 is ridiculous

As I said in the last thread, unlike the one target that is Cell, he'd have to catch both 17 and 18 in the crossfire. Plus he can't sense their ki so he has NO clue if it would work or not. Virtually throwing away his life for no reason. He also had no reason to believe 17 and 18 couldn't absorb energy like 19 and 20 could.

 

[Just_Butchering]

Why do people keep bringing up Cell not being hurt? That not the argument here. The point is: The Tri-Beam did more against Semi-P Cell than 16 did, therefore, he upscales from 16 with that technique. That's it.

As for why he didn't use it against the androids. Some people provide arguments, but honestly, the Z Fighters have a lot of fumbling, specially in this arc.

 

[Nierre]

agree with the OP, im surprised this is as controversial as it is

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

As I said in the last thread, unlike the one target that is Cell, he'd have to catch both 17 and 18 in the crossfire.

Vegeta was only fighting 18 while 17 did nothing. Tien could've easily snipe 17 with one, then have the Z fighters jump 18 to kill her too, or just use another one as Tien can use multiple of the tri beams before collapsing

Plus he can't sense their ki so he has NO clue if it would work or not. Virtually throwing away his life for no reason. He also had no reason to believe 17 and 18 couldn't absorb energy like 19 and 20 could.

Tien clearly saw Android 19 and 20 can get overloaded when trying to absorb too much energy. We see it when SSJ Vegeta rips off 19's arms and then him running away. And also, considering Tien was impressed by Vegeta's power as a SSJ, as well as shocked that Android 18 was stronger than him. Vegeta's power was considered to be the strongest among the Z fighters prior to Piccolo and Kami fusing. If Tien had this much power to be able to one shot both 17 and 18 at the same time, he'd have done it and killed them, or did it to 19 and 20

Also, people often forget this, but Android 16 can actually sense ki, and if Tien had this much power with the tribeam, 16 would've known about it and told the Androids Tien has a move that far surpasses them in power

Literally the only argument you have is that it pushed Cell back, and when he was off guard at that

 

[Just_Butchering]

Also, people often forget this, but Android 16 can actually sense ki, and if Tien had this much power with the tribeam, 16 would've known about it and told the Androids Tien has a move that far surpasses them in power

Only with the Tri-Beam does Tien reach this level of power. So 16 would only find that out the moment he used it

 

[Damage3245]

Only with the Tri-Beam does Tien reach this level of power. So 16 would only find that out the moment he used it

Indeed. Just like how Goku's power level rises as he charges up the Kamehameha but Raditz, with his Scouter, wasn't aware that his power could reach that high until he did it.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Only with the Tri-Beam does Tien reach this level of power. So 16 would only find that out the moment he used it

16 can sense the full extent of someone's ki even if they're holding back. Like when he told the Androids Kamiccolo is as strong as them despite him holding back when fusing (only powering up fully when he fought 17). If we use the scouter logic thing then 16 wouldn't have known Piccolo is that strong until he powered up to fight 17

Tien himself also stated that there was no way for them to defeat 17 and 18, and when Goku suggested the Time Chamber, everyone agreed it was their only way. The 16 point was only a supporting point anyways, since the fact Tien himself admits they can't beat the Androids even though he has the neo tri beam at this point (though didn't use it until fighting Cell), very much implies it doesn't have that level of power. It probably would've stunned them and push them back, yeah, but not kill them or defeat them

Not to mention the fact that with this you could realistically make a VS match where there's an argument Tien defeats Android 17 because of this, even though in the story he canonically lost to him and said no one stood a chance

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Agree

 

[Damage3245]

16 can sense the full extent of someone's ki even if they're holding back. Like when he told the Androids Kamiccolo is as strong as them despite him holding back when fusing (only powering up fully when he fought 17). If we use the scouter logic thing then 16 wouldn't have known Piccolo is that strong until he powered up to fight 17

Ah, in Chapter 168? All Android 16 says is that one of them rivals the Androids in power; for all we know Piccolo was using enough power against Cell for that to be the case. He did power up against Cell after all.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Which chapter was this?

The chapter where he senses Piccolos power? Right here (From DBZ Chapter 168 "Ginger Town Showdown")

 

[DivineAura44]

Vegeta was only fighting 18 while 17 did nothing. Tien could've easily snipe 17 with one, then have the Z fighters jump 18 to kill her too, or just use another one as Tien can use multiple of the tri beams before collapsing

17 doing nothing means he's just not ready to dodge? And if they wanted to jump 18, they could have done it regardless. They refused because of Vegeta clearly didn't want to.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

17 doing nothing means he's just not ready to dodge? And if they wanted to jump 18, they could have done it regardless. They refused because of Vegeta clearly didn't want to.

Nothing really stopped Tien from sniping 17 while 18 was fighting Vegeta. 17 can't sense energy either so he would've had no way to know Tien's beam would be that strong. 17 was also pretty arrogant at the time, refusing to run away from Cell even when 16 told him he stands no chance.
Instead we saw Tien watching in fear when Vegeta was starting to lose against 18, then charging at 17 without even trying to use the neo tri beam.

Not that it matters anyways because Tien directly said that they can't beat the Androids, and Tien is well aware of his own techniques. Vegeta was also holding his own against 18 when both were using their full power, so while Tien can't sense her he would have a rough idea of her power, and a blast this strong would one shot her easily