MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,682
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Uhhhhhhh ok?
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This number 9 large will rickroll any filthy, simping Uchiha in sight, Harambe will revive and take his rightful place above these inferior creatures
- Status
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,682
- 4,403
Well tbf it's not so simple as just a vote who's correct, cause there were quite a few points that Slayer was unsure about which requires further input from others. And idt it makes a whole lot of sense for someone to either 100% agree or disagree with everyone one of us said. For points where we are firmly disagreeing sure that makes sense.
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When I say vote, I’m not saying it’s either all in slayer or all in sparkle
I’m saying you decide which points you agree or disagree with. Also, I’m tell you straight up, I really doubt there are any staff willing to engage in multiple 5-6 thousand word responses with you. So I’d temper your expectations on a prolonged back and forth.
MinatoSparkle
He/Him- 7,682
- 4,403
Not to that extent obviouslyWhen I say vote, I’m not saying it’s either all in slayer or all in sparkle
But considering they're inconclusive, some things kinda need to be talked about more to some extent.
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- Thread starter
- #167
Well, uhhh, **** lol. This is getting outta hand, so I'll just need to put my foot down here and say that this is going to be THE FINAL mega post in this thread. I'm saying it right now, I'm not making another one of these lol 
Obviously everyone is welcome to argue whatever point they may still have contentions with, but pleeaaaaaaaase, for the love of god just not in this format. It's too painful and time consuming to engage in it.
So here's what we're gonna do here moving forward. The debate between Sparkle and myself should cease with this post. I genuinely believe we've both said everything there is to say regarding these points in the mega posts we made thus far. Going any further would just be circular, and kind of a massive waste of time and effort.
So what ya'll need to do right now is just go through the posts carefully (it's a tall order, I know. And I'm sorry lol), and then decide which of our points you agree with. Whoever gets the majority agreement from staff and knowledgeable members, simply has his points go through I guess.
And that's it, really.
I'm going to update the justifications as well as the values sandbox sometime tomorrow. I can't be asked to do it right now after writing all of this lmao.
So yeah, cheers everyone, and Godspeed going through this post
There's nothing that really conclusively proves that MS had to be physically comparable to Sage Mode Naruto. He could've just been comparable with the Susano'o. It could've been Amaterasu. It could've been Chidori. We just don't know. The main headline is that Sasuke doesn't have to be physically comparable to harm Naruto.
Also, even assuming Naruto sensed Sasuke's true power on the way there when he was still in Sage Mode, that would include the Susano'o anyway, given that Sasuke used his strongest version of it against Kakashi not long before his arrival. Additionally, we need to consider the fact that Sage Mode, while very powerful, doesn't actually last that long, and isn't exactly very viable in spontaneous 1v1 combat. Back during those times, Naruto always either needed to already be in Sage Mode before engaging in combat, like what he did against Pain, or he needed to have others buy time for him to enter the form. So if Sasuke just popped in suddenly to fight Naruto and destroy the village, it's not like he's gonna just wait around for Naruto to build up Nature Energy and enter Sage Mode. I'm only bringing all this up to say that Naruto wanting a power up makes perfect sense, as he needed a more sustainable and easily accessible power up, which later came in the form of KCM.
My larger point is this: This whole thing is just too vague. We don't have enough to really build any solid conclusion off of. All we can really say is that maybe Naruto thought his abilities in Sage Mode would match up against Sasuke's with the MS to the point of them killing each other, but they don't really need to have equal AP to achieve this. They have a multitude of win conditions against each other. So I still disagree with them scaling to each other. It's not like the proposed scaling makes it so them competing in terms of stats impossible anyway. Sasuke can still compete with Naruto using his Susano'o and Chidori.
So yeah, I'm personally not too hot on Naruto scaling directly to or above Kakashi based on this, even if he already does indirectly. However, it doesn't really change much in practice, so I'm willing to accept it if everyone else is cool with it. It's a minor thing that doesn't really change much.
Here you go
1) There isn't any evidence that the poison weakened Naruto prior to the point where we clearly see its effect taking place. There was no real indication that he was affected prior to that. Even if we assume that he was, though, we would still have no idea as to what degree he was affected. So by and large, this point is kinda irrelevant in my view.
2) This was a Sasuke who was just about to go blind, assuming he hadn't already. He was a Sasuke who was feeling the horrendous effects from a prolonged day of absolutely abusing his body and eyes to the point of matching years' worth of blindness and damage in Itachi's case, in only a matter of hours. He was healed at a couple of junctures, sure, but I don't think its reasonable to say that Naruto should be scaling to Sasuke at his peak when he clearly wasn't at his peak. Even if we take the heals he received into consideration, he undid them soon after by overusing his Mangekyou Sharingan even more against Kakashi. So yeah, this one I just don't agree with.
It doesn't apply to the Bijuu Bombs because they inherently function differently from a RS or a Rasengan. They are super condensed masses of chakra, that have a very high physical force when launched, but then have a demonstrably different level of power when they explode as was highlighted in Arc's Bijuudama thread. Your argument would've worked if we ever saw someone completely annihilate an incoming Bijuudama, but that never happens. The closest we came to that was Kurama Mode Naruto deflecting the five Bijuudama, but he didn't destroy or annihilate them Pain-style; he just matched their kinetic energy and sent them flying, where they later exploded after making contact with the mountains they vaporized.
Way to ignore context with that example lol. Base Naruto's Rasengan defeated an extremely weakened and fatigued, damn near-death Tendo, so the example just doesn't work at all.
The Kakuzu example doesn't work at all either. You saying that having millions (or more) tiny cellular sized blades violating your body from every direction "had something to do with him being unable to move probably" is hilarious. It had everything to do with it. It's explicitly what paralyzed him, and it would obviously do damage. An attack negating durability doesn't mean it doesn't cause physical damage as well lmao.
Madara example is equally as impotent as the Kakuzu one because the guy has regeneration, and because there's no real proof that the Lava Rasenshuriken has the same cellular wind blade shenaniganry that the regular Futon Rasenshuriken does.
You seriously mean to tell me that an attack that explicitly negates durability destroyed a dude's body??!! Yes, that's exactly what it means lol.
Like, I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp for you, Sparkle. The FRS does damage that, in most cases, happens to negate durability. It's a really simple concept.
Also, no, this doesn't even work in the first place because the Human Path that got deleted was MUCH weaker than the one Jiraiya fought, or even the stronger Konoha Pains that Naruto fought later on. This was Pain, quite literally, at his absolute lowest point. He had the maximum number of bodies active. He had yet recovered from the effects of the Chaotic Shinra Tensei. Finally, he was also far away from Nagato. This version of the Human Path literally scales to 7-B+, so uhh, yeah. A 7-B+ character being absolutely demolished by a 6-C attack that ignores durability isn't exactly the best anti-feat out there......
All these attacks you mention aren't exactly stagnant or stationary amps. They have different performances depending on the version of the characters, their feats, and the context. It's a linear graph, which is why they're rated wildly differently depending on which version of the character we're looking at.
I could give you numerous examples of people tanking Rasengans, too, but it's just pointless because the logic doesn't even take off in the first place.
I'm not planning to budge either, but since this is my last response in any case, we'll just leave it up to the others in the end.
1) Like, yeah, it's not accepted yet lol. When it is, we can talk about it.
2) Let's say it gets accepted. It doesn't really change anything. Considering the fact that we're downscaling Gyuki's durability to 4.3 Gigatons from a 15.55 Gigatons value, I think Pain and Naruto downscaling from a 5.68 Gigatons value, or even a 8 Gigatons value, will be just fine. It's really not that large of a downscale lol.
Everyone you mentioned was either an Edo Tensei or had regeneration. In Kurama's case he both has regeneration and was also an entirely chakra-based construct, so severing his chakra networks really wouldn't do much, but let's just ignore that whole fight cause.......yeah lol. Just not worth arguing about that one imo.
The Pain statement also isn't good for anything other than being supporting evidence. He only said that Naruto pushed him the farthest out of everyone he fought, which makes sense since he was down to his last Path by that point. This a feat that Jiraiya didn't really even come close to replicating. However, he never calls Naruto his toughest opponent, or asserts that he's the strongest one or anything of the sort.
His clones get easily negged because that's just the nature of Shadow Clones, they have really low durability and usually go poof when connected against by any direct attack.
Additionally, the more than three times amp was only stated for the potency of Kakashi's Kamui, not really his general abilities, so you can't use this statement to derive a physical multiplier for Kakashi.
Yes, this is how a fight against a jobbing Obito went. Also I'd like to mention the fact that kakashi had a Kyuubi Cloak when Obito teleported him, so it's not out of the question that he was also amped during this fight anyway. The amp was also more than likely significantly larger than the one Kakashi had the first time around.
The other one is just good support to the notion that he's above Hiruzen. If everyone fighting Nine-Tails, including Hiruzen, was waiting for his arrival specifically, then that heavily implies that he's stronger than Hiruzen, which is already something we know for sure given other statements and the fact that Minato actually defeated him in combat, BUT it's never bad to have extra support for something. This just makes his superiority to Hiruzen (outside of Prime Hiruzen, anyway) one of his most supported aspects of his scaling, which is important to have when a character is as lacking in direct AP feats as Minato is.
Non-specific, general, or vague statements are usually context dependent.
Sage Mode Minato > Minato >~ Ay > KCM Naruto < Rinnegan Obito > War Arc Kakashi
So he ends up there anyway.
But as for your argument itself, I don't buy it personally. Kakashi explicitly states that he teleported the Rasengan before it did any real damage. It mainly damaged his clothing.
How about you take this instead? 
But nah, seriously, I wanna stop for a moment and make something clear.
If at any point it seems like I'm being overly aggressive, rude, or anything like that, I apologize. I mean no offense to you personally, and any jab I take are aimed purely at the arguments themselves, and are mostly just in good fun. I respect you, and appreciate the passion, time, and effort it takes to make such massive and detailed posts, since I made some myself lol. So yeah, all the love and respect brother, but still **** you for making the posts this big kek.
Also the KCM vs KN4 claim is baseless. You can't prove that KCM Naruto is inherently superior to KN4 Naruto in stats, so yeah. The point is rather moot, I'm afraid.
Even if I grant you that Nagato moved with Tendo in that instance, we still do not know where he was based, so we still can't really compare this Tendo to either Konoha or Amekagure Tendo. You could maybe say he should be in a similar ballpark, but that's really about all you can juice out of it.
The Sasuke thing is also extremely meh. Orochimaru was desperate as hell at that point, and was very clearly coping hard lol just like you are now, it's so sad.
Look, that feat is fine and all, but it's just so overwhelmingly outnumbered by the other showings of Naruto being stronger. Which is why we can't, and won't, use it as justification to get Orochimaru to scale to KN4 in any way shape or form. At best it's an outlier.
We're not gonna scale the Rashomon to 6-C when their only feat was getting literally Hakai'd by a 6-C attack lol, get outta here with that shit. So yes, it'll only stay at "far higher", because we don't scale characters or objects to attacks that completely eviscerate them. Also, there was three of them, making this whole thing that much worse.
And.......uh, yeah, obviously Orochimaru was one of the strongest Shinobi in the world lol, but that really isn't saying much when looking at the Shinobi World holistically and the fact that we only follow relevant, strong characters for the most part. Just being a Jonin already makes you an "elite Shinobi", since Shinobi are mostly comprised of Genin and Chunin fodder. And in any case, this really offers no meaningful comparison with Jiraiya as he's also obviously one of the strongest, most revered Shinobi in the world.
The exclamation mark means nothing beyond the fact that Naruto was surprised by Orochimaru's surprise attack
But to answer your question, no, I'm not arguing these things purely to discredit your arguments against Jiraiya. I just genuinely believe you're being EXTREMELY generous with your interpretation of Orochimaru's performance against Naruto. Feats are >>>>> statements after all, doubly so for random confidence statements uttered by an arrogant troll, and triply so if the statements are just overwhelmingly outnumbered by anti-feats.
I simply refuse to scale Orochimaru to or above a character who's explicitly shown to be physically superior to him. That's all I've got to say about that.
It was never explicitly stated that he is only on this level with Sage Mode. I'm not saying we should scale him to Orochimaru without Sage Mode, but it really isn't the surefire slam dunk you think it is lol.
The "I am nothing compared to Lord Orochimaru" is just Kabuto being coy. He was just making fun of people's perception of him, nothing more. He literally says he surpassed Orochimaru 5 seconds later, and we know he was only achieved Sage Mode by artificially obtaining a stronger body than the one Orochimaru possessed, so yeah it really isn't as surefire as you say IMHO.
In terms of sheer scaling though, the Susano'o is still up there man. Like Susano'o >>>> Eight Branches Orochimaru > Orochimaru >~ Manda ~ Biju level. I dunno about you, but that's strong as hell in my book.
And again the 30% thing isn't currently accepted so gg.
No, you actually can't lol.
Comparing that to an off-screen fight between two mainly mid to long range poison users is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Me rn^
Obviously everyone is welcome to argue whatever point they may still have contentions with, but pleeaaaaaaaase, for the love of god just not in this format. It's too painful and time consuming to engage in it.
So here's what we're gonna do here moving forward. The debate between Sparkle and myself should cease with this post. I genuinely believe we've both said everything there is to say regarding these points in the mega posts we made thus far. Going any further would just be circular, and kind of a massive waste of time and effort.
So what ya'll need to do right now is just go through the posts carefully (it's a tall order, I know. And I'm sorry lol), and then decide which of our points you agree with. Whoever gets the majority agreement from staff and knowledgeable members, simply has his points go through I guess.
And that's it, really.
I'm going to update the justifications as well as the values sandbox sometime tomorrow. I can't be asked to do it right now after writing all of this lmao.
So yeah, cheers everyone, and Godspeed going through this post
I am not welcome. Not welcome at all. I am coping, seething, and malding right now.You're welcome
You need more than vague implications in order to get a solid rating. The fact of the matter is that we have zero clue as to how that fight could've went.
There's nothing that really conclusively proves that MS had to be physically comparable to Sage Mode Naruto. He could've just been comparable with the Susano'o. It could've been Amaterasu. It could've been Chidori. We just don't know. The main headline is that Sasuke doesn't have to be physically comparable to harm Naruto.
Also, even assuming Naruto sensed Sasuke's true power on the way there when he was still in Sage Mode, that would include the Susano'o anyway, given that Sasuke used his strongest version of it against Kakashi not long before his arrival. Additionally, we need to consider the fact that Sage Mode, while very powerful, doesn't actually last that long, and isn't exactly very viable in spontaneous 1v1 combat. Back during those times, Naruto always either needed to already be in Sage Mode before engaging in combat, like what he did against Pain, or he needed to have others buy time for him to enter the form. So if Sasuke just popped in suddenly to fight Naruto and destroy the village, it's not like he's gonna just wait around for Naruto to build up Nature Energy and enter Sage Mode. I'm only bringing all this up to say that Naruto wanting a power up makes perfect sense, as he needed a more sustainable and easily accessible power up, which later came in the form of KCM.
My larger point is this: This whole thing is just too vague. We don't have enough to really build any solid conclusion off of. All we can really say is that maybe Naruto thought his abilities in Sage Mode would match up against Sasuke's with the MS to the point of them killing each other, but they don't really need to have equal AP to achieve this. They have a multitude of win conditions against each other. So I still disagree with them scaling to each other. It's not like the proposed scaling makes it so them competing in terms of stats impossible anyway. Sasuke can still compete with Naruto using his Susano'o and Chidori.
Well, like I said, he has the Susano'o, as well as a multitude of other abilities that could easily kill Naruto, so even if we use this statement at face value, it's not like it's contradicted. That fight would be close no matter what, but it doesn't have to be as simple as "they must be equal in AP for the fight to be viable". The stats can be variable a little bit because their powers are so nuanced and multi-faceted.
It doesn't because Itachi already scales much higher than this version of Sasuke does.
If we look at the entire scan, we can see that the larger context is indeed still about the Rasenshuriken, IMO. And if we're being honest here, it's not like Naruto really showed anything in his fight against Kakuzu that demonstrates any form of superiority to Kakashi outside of the Rasenshuriken. Like, he got shat on physically just like everyone else, his performance really wasn't all that impressive in terms of his base AP.
So yeah, I'm personally not too hot on Naruto scaling directly to or above Kakashi based on this, even if he already does indirectly. However, it doesn't really change much in practice, so I'm willing to accept it if everyone else is cool with it. It's a minor thing that doesn't really change much.
Yeah, no, this scan does not prove that the Rasengan is equal in AP to the Raikiri at all, so this whole scaling chain you put forth falls flat.
Prove that
No, that makes no sense. Yes, hatred amps should be permanent, but they are applied to your Dojutsu, as that's where they come from and that's where they have an effect. There's zero evidence that the Uchiha in question receives an equivalent amp to their base form as well. At the very least, there isn't enough for us to derive a 10x amp from it, at all.
Read the Multiplier page carefully and you'll know why.
Okay, so there's two problems here.
1) There isn't any evidence that the poison weakened Naruto prior to the point where we clearly see its effect taking place. There was no real indication that he was affected prior to that. Even if we assume that he was, though, we would still have no idea as to what degree he was affected. So by and large, this point is kinda irrelevant in my view.
2) This was a Sasuke who was just about to go blind, assuming he hadn't already. He was a Sasuke who was feeling the horrendous effects from a prolonged day of absolutely abusing his body and eyes to the point of matching years' worth of blindness and damage in Itachi's case, in only a matter of hours. He was healed at a couple of junctures, sure, but I don't think its reasonable to say that Naruto should be scaling to Sasuke at his peak when he clearly wasn't at his peak. Even if we take the heals he received into consideration, he undid them soon after by overusing his Mangekyou Sharingan even more against Kakashi. So yeah, this one I just don't agree with.
Already addressed more or less everything related to this topic, but like, Sasuke was blind lmao. Him recovering is kinda irrelevant, cause he didn't have access to his most powerful weapons anymore.
Sparkle, buddy, you gotta stop taking everything so literally and actually look at things for what they are. First of all, this is a completely different Rasenshuriken variant, so it's literally irrelevant when to comes to how the original Futon Rasenshuriken functions. Secondly, he say "explode", but it clearly doesn't lmao. It expands and cuts the Divine Tree.
You make a lot of arguments in each of these paragraphs, so I'll address them in order as they come.
It doesn't apply to the Bijuu Bombs because they inherently function differently from a RS or a Rasengan. They are super condensed masses of chakra, that have a very high physical force when launched, but then have a demonstrably different level of power when they explode as was highlighted in Arc's Bijuudama thread. Your argument would've worked if we ever saw someone completely annihilate an incoming Bijuudama, but that never happens. The closest we came to that was Kurama Mode Naruto deflecting the five Bijuudama, but he didn't destroy or annihilate them Pain-style; he just matched their kinetic energy and sent them flying, where they later exploded after making contact with the mountains they vaporized.
Way to ignore context with that example lol. Base Naruto's Rasengan defeated an extremely weakened and fatigued, damn near-death Tendo, so the example just doesn't work at all.
The Kakuzu example doesn't work at all either. You saying that having millions (or more) tiny cellular sized blades violating your body from every direction "had something to do with him being unable to move probably" is hilarious. It had everything to do with it. It's explicitly what paralyzed him, and it would obviously do damage. An attack negating durability doesn't mean it doesn't cause physical damage as well lmao.
Madara example is equally as impotent as the Kakuzu one because the guy has regeneration, and because there's no real proof that the Lava Rasenshuriken has the same cellular wind blade shenaniganry that the regular Futon Rasenshuriken does.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
You seriously mean to tell me that an attack that explicitly negates durability destroyed a dude's body??!! Yes, that's exactly what it means lol.
Like, I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp for you, Sparkle. The FRS does damage that, in most cases, happens to negate durability. It's a really simple concept.
Also, no, this doesn't even work in the first place because the Human Path that got deleted was MUCH weaker than the one Jiraiya fought, or even the stronger Konoha Pains that Naruto fought later on. This was Pain, quite literally, at his absolute lowest point. He had the maximum number of bodies active. He had yet recovered from the effects of the Chaotic Shinra Tensei. Finally, he was also far away from Nagato. This version of the Human Path literally scales to 7-B+, so uhh, yeah. A 7-B+ character being absolutely demolished by a 6-C attack that ignores durability isn't exactly the best anti-feat out there......
This paragraph is just full of incredulous statements and shit you just can't back up, so if it's alright with you, I'll just largely ignore it. No offense, but this reply is already long enough.
All these attacks you mention aren't exactly stagnant or stationary amps. They have different performances depending on the version of the characters, their feats, and the context. It's a linear graph, which is why they're rated wildly differently depending on which version of the character we're looking at.
I could give you numerous examples of people tanking Rasengans, too, but it's just pointless because the logic doesn't even take off in the first place.
We don't even take this fight into account here, so yeah, I'm gonna ignore this too to be frank.
I'm not planning to budge either, but since this is my last response in any case, we'll just leave it up to the others in the end.
This point is irrelevant for two big reasons.
1) Like, yeah, it's not accepted yet lol. When it is, we can talk about it.
2) Let's say it gets accepted. It doesn't really change anything. Considering the fact that we're downscaling Gyuki's durability to 4.3 Gigatons from a 15.55 Gigatons value, I think Pain and Naruto downscaling from a 5.68 Gigatons value, or even a 8 Gigatons value, will be just fine. It's really not that large of a downscale lol.
The attack's raw power frightening Kakuzu is irrelevant because it already scales above his durability, so like, whatever.
Everyone you mentioned was either an Edo Tensei or had regeneration. In Kurama's case he both has regeneration and was also an entirely chakra-based construct, so severing his chakra networks really wouldn't do much, but let's just ignore that whole fight cause.......yeah lol. Just not worth arguing about that one imo.
Like I said before, the statement cannot be simultaneously accurate and inaccurate. We either take Fukasaku's word as a reliable source who almost trained both parties, or we do not. I am vehemently against picking and choosing, as I consider it cherry-picking. The first statement isn't really conclusive on its own imo, as it leaves things hanging and doesn't say anything conclusive. The second set of statements also don't change much beyond adding some narrative support to the idea, but they don't really confirm anything either. Like I said, I'm okay with Naruto being considered above Jiraiya, but if we lose the only statement that completely confirms it without a shadow of a doubt, then I believe it becomes far more shaky. I don't care much either way, because I'm personally undecided on the topic anyway.
The Pain statement also isn't good for anything other than being supporting evidence. He only said that Naruto pushed him the farthest out of everyone he fought, which makes sense since he was down to his last Path by that point. This a feat that Jiraiya didn't really even come close to replicating. However, he never calls Naruto his toughest opponent, or asserts that he's the strongest one or anything of the sort.
Naruto making clones has never really nerfed him before, so I really don't see why this would be any different. It'd be one thing if Kurama was actively trying to steal his chakra like Gyuki and Bee initially thought he would, but we know for a fact that he did no such thing.
His clones get easily negged because that's just the nature of Shadow Clones, they have really low durability and usually go poof when connected against by any direct attack.
I really don't see any significant difference here if I'm being honest. Surely, at the very least, not some MAJOR NOTICEABLE damage. The Deity Gates don't really have any direct correlation to Hashirama's Wood Release's durability, but considering the fact that Naruto destroyed two Wood Dragons with this technique, then he obviously scales with it. However, it should be noted that Naruto used a MASSIVE Cho Odama Rasenshuriken here, so it wouldn't even scale to his regular one lol. It's obviously far stronger for reasons I hope I don't have to explain.
The final amount he absorbed was 9, meaning the number of tails absorbed is irrelevant and shouldn't be used as a direct scaling method. We have no solid way of asserting that the amount of Kurama chakra that KCM utilizes is superior to that which KN6 did, so we won't. It's as simple as that.
Sure, but the other points still stand regardless.
Mate, she scales. She definitely scales. The Raikage did this to Madara's Humanoid Susano'o. The Humanoid Susano'o scales to 15.55 Gigatons. Tsunade was stated to be stronger than the Raikage. It really is as simple as it comes lol. And knocking the Humanoid Susano'o into the dirt definitely scales her to it, especially because she was extremely low on chakra at that point, and ran out not long after.
It's possible, but not exactly proven, especially not with Obito's history of holding back against Kakashi and Naruto in order to prove certain points to himself or them. In this case, there's also the extra added motivation of maneuvering the fight in a way that'll get him stabbed through the heart.
He knocked back a jobbing Obito, yes.
No. He doesn't. He injured an off-guard Obito's torso. Gut punches hurt really badly when you're not bracing for them, any one who's ever fought before can vouch for this fact. Well, tbh the principle kinda applies to all physical blows to some extent. In real life combat, seeing an attack coming or not can be the sole difference between rolling with it and being just fine, or getting your lights shut down and knocked out.
Additionally, the more than three times amp was only stated for the potency of Kakashi's Kamui, not really his general abilities, so you can't use this statement to derive a physical multiplier for Kakashi.
His knee......which Obito casually injured himself, yes. A 4.3 Gigatons character surviving attacks from another 4.3 Gigatons character who's higher on the scaling chain isn't really something crazy, at all. Blocking the Shuriken is a feat for Kakashi's Mud Wall, not really his physicals, but you're right it should be included.
Yes, this is how a fight against a jobbing Obito went. Also I'd like to mention the fact that kakashi had a Kyuubi Cloak when Obito teleported him, so it's not out of the question that he was also amped during this fight anyway. The amp was also more than likely significantly larger than the one Kakashi had the first time around.
You're just speculating here. Could Obito have done it in any other way? Maybe. It really doesn't matter, though. We know his plan was to have Kakashi stab through his heart (likely due to some sick Rin parallel he had in his head among other potential reasons, but that's besides the point), so ultimately that's what we'll go with. It's pointless to speculate about him having other, better options, when we know this one was the one he wanted to go with for one reason or another.
This is confidence scaling based on an entirely off-screen fight, where Kakashi and Minato likely weren't even trying to kill BZ + Obito because they didn't wish to kill Obito. I hope that, on some level, you can somewhat acknowledge why this is shaky at best. I personally can't accept it, but like with many other things, if the others agree with you on this, then it is what it is I guess. I maintain that it's about as far from solid as it gets, though.
We don't really know how Hashirama reached that state. It could've been through physical clashes, sure, but it could've also been damage accrued through being hit with Madara's Katon Jutsu, his Susano'o, his Uchiha Reflection, or literally anything else. It's impossible to say for sure. What we know for sure is that they're physically comparable to each other, more or less, so let's just keep things simple and go with that.
It does line up, and you'll see exactly how when we get to the Top Tiers revision
They're pretty direct in my view. Since you concede to the second one being direct, I won't talk about it.
The other one is just good support to the notion that he's above Hiruzen. If everyone fighting Nine-Tails, including Hiruzen, was waiting for his arrival specifically, then that heavily implies that he's stronger than Hiruzen, which is already something we know for sure given other statements and the fact that Minato actually defeated him in combat, BUT it's never bad to have extra support for something. This just makes his superiority to Hiruzen (outside of Prime Hiruzen, anyway) one of his most supported aspects of his scaling, which is important to have when a character is as lacking in direct AP feats as Minato is.
Would be decent if Naruto and Kakashi knew the extent of everyone's abilities, but they do not. These statements really aren't as solid or as clear-cut as you make them out to be.
Well, he's not fodder in AP, so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Him not scaling to Kurama tier AP doesn't make him fodder lmao.
Non-specific, general, or vague statements are usually context dependent.
Sure, but that doesn't include absolutely everyone, and certainly not every Jutsu at their disposal either. Minato has some very clear-cut scaling statements, so let's just stick to them and move on, please. I appreciate you repping your favorite character and all that, but I think you should know by now that the more "out there" metas and vague hype statements just won't go very far here.
What's a maybe? Him scaling to Ay? If I haven't made it clear already, I do think he scales to V2 Ay. That's why I have that shit in his justification lol.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell, glad you agree-ish to drop it, so yeah let's move on.
I mean, he kinda is? He's definitely on that level for sure.
Sage Mode Minato > Minato >~ Ay > KCM Naruto < Rinnegan Obito > War Arc Kakashi
So he ends up there anyway.
But as for your argument itself, I don't buy it personally. Kakashi explicitly states that he teleported the Rasengan before it did any real damage. It mainly damaged his clothing.
But nah, seriously, I wanna stop for a moment and make something clear.
If at any point it seems like I'm being overly aggressive, rude, or anything like that, I apologize. I mean no offense to you personally, and any jab I take are aimed purely at the arguments themselves, and are mostly just in good fun. I respect you, and appreciate the passion, time, and effort it takes to make such massive and detailed posts, since I made some myself lol. So yeah, all the love and respect brother,
Not at all the same since Naruto can just enter SPSM whenever he likes, while Jiraiya cannot do the same with Sage Mode.
The top statement is just a random hype text that could mean literally anything. You're acting like it's confirmed that it's referring to Sage Mode, but it's not, like at all.
It's headcanon because you're forcibly extracting additional meaning from a clear cut statement. Pain is saying that the Sannin have unique abilities. That's it. That's all that means. You saying that what he actually means is that Orochimaru is equal to Sage Mode Jiraiya in AP is completely baseless.
Even if he factored Sage Mode into what he was saying, it still doesn't really matter. All he's saying is that Jiraiya lived up to his legendary reputation as one of the Sannin. Saying that there's a subtext here about that actually meaning that Sage Jiraiya is only equal to base Orochimaru is a bit of a stretch IMHO.
Sparkle, you really almost had me in the first half ngl. We agree on the first part, which is good. The second part is where I take issue. They all scale to the same value, like literally. Even before I adjusted the Rasenshuriken scaling, the difference really wasn't as massive as you seem to think it is. Jiraiya can definitely compete. He's insanely skilled, insanely intelligent, insanely resourceful, and insanely varied in his arsenal. All he really needs to compete with the Gokage is to be in their general ballpark of power, aka Bijuu level, which he now will be. It really is as simple as that.
Also the KCM vs KN4 claim is baseless. You can't prove that KCM Naruto is inherently superior to KN4 Naruto in stats, so yeah. The point is rather moot, I'm afraid.
No offense, but literally every word you spouted here is baseless. You can't prove anything you said here.
Even if I grant you that Nagato moved with Tendo in that instance, we still do not know where he was based, so we still can't really compare this Tendo to either Konoha or Amekagure Tendo. You could maybe say he should be in a similar ballpark, but that's really about all you can juice out of it.
Orochimaru being "unimpressed" doesn't change the fact that Naruto shows clear physical superiority to this version of Orochimaru. These statements, coming from an arrogant prick, won't exactly make any of us ignore the feats we plainly see before our very eyes.
The Sasuke thing is also extremely meh. Orochimaru was desperate as hell at that point, and was very clearly coping hard lol
If that's the case, then it's a potentially cool Lifting Strength feat for Orochimaru whenever we get to that part of the revisions.
So you just admitted to ignoring the larger context in order to fit your own agenda???? Like what bro?????? It's textbook cherry-picking at its finest.
Look, that feat is fine and all, but it's just so overwhelmingly outnumbered by the other showings of Naruto being stronger. Which is why we can't, and won't, use it as justification to get Orochimaru to scale to KN4 in any way shape or form. At best it's an outlier.
First off, him summoning a 6-C shield really says nothing about his own durability or AP, so I'm not even sure how this is relevant in any way to your larger "Orochimaru > base Jiraiya" narrative, but I'll bite.
We're not gonna scale the Rashomon to 6-C when their only feat was getting literally Hakai'd by a 6-C attack lol, get outta here with that shit. So yes, it'll only stay at "far higher", because we don't scale characters or objects to attacks that completely eviscerate them. Also, there was three of them, making this whole thing that much worse.
And.......uh, yeah, obviously Orochimaru was one of the strongest Shinobi in the world lol, but that really isn't saying much when looking at the Shinobi World holistically and the fact that we only follow relevant, strong characters for the most part. Just being a Jonin already makes you an "elite Shinobi", since Shinobi are mostly comprised of Genin and Chunin fodder. And in any case, this really offers no meaningful comparison with Jiraiya as he's also obviously one of the strongest, most revered Shinobi in the world.
Sparkle, this is one of the most cookie-cutter Lifting Strength feats I may have ever seen. Orochimaru literally just pops out and lifts Naruto with his Kusanagi Blade, and then slams him down. He does absolutely zero damage.
The exclamation mark means nothing beyond the fact that Naruto was surprised by Orochimaru's surprise attack
Perhaps not 80x, sure, but we make do with the values we have. We're not going to assign Orochimaru with an arbitrarily higher value just because you can't believe he's that much weaker, it's like the definition of arguing from incredulity lol.
But to answer your question, no, I'm not arguing these things purely to discredit your arguments against Jiraiya. I just genuinely believe you're being EXTREMELY generous with your interpretation of Orochimaru's performance against Naruto. Feats are >>>>> statements after all, doubly so for random confidence statements uttered by an arrogant troll, and triply so if the statements are just overwhelmingly outnumbered by anti-feats.
I simply refuse to scale Orochimaru to or above a character who's explicitly shown to be physically superior to him. That's all I've got to say about that.
Not really, no. I already addressed my issues with the Sage Mode Naruto ~ Mangekyou Sharingan Sasuke thing, so I won't go over it anymore. But it's not like there being some variance inside that scaling chain changes anything really. It also doesn't help that we don't know the degree of superiority that Sasuke holds over Orochimaru at that point. Again, just very vague stuff that won't get anywhere. It's not like two characters being superior to another two inherently means that the inferior duo are equal or anything.
I probably couldn't stress to you how irrelevant it is if I tried. Yes, the Sannin are superior to Danzo. Nobody really claimed otherwise. They're 6-C, and he's High 7-A. Him having one or two attacks (one which is amped with his summon at that) that maybe scale higher really doesn't change that lol. Also for the sake of the argument, we have no real reason to assume that Hiruzen knew of Danzo's current capabilities anyway. The man was literally collaborating with Orochimaru himself for years behind his back, and that's not even mentioning the numerous experiments he conducted on his own body in order to enhance it, so it's not like this is some killer argument in any case.
We. Just. Don't. Know. We don't know how much his SM amped him because the man had Perfect Sage Mode as well as additional genetic buffs that made it even stronger. Likewise, we have no way of knowing exactly how powerful his "base" was at that point. So you really shouldn't be making any sweeping claims about it. Also, like, Sage Naruto was definitely weaker than Jiriaya and Orochimaru in base, yet he managed to surpass them with Sage Mode apparently, so it's not like it's something unheard of or out of the question.
It was never explicitly stated that he is only on this level with Sage Mode. I'm not saying we should scale him to Orochimaru without Sage Mode, but it really isn't the surefire slam dunk you think it is lol.
The "I am nothing compared to Lord Orochimaru" is just Kabuto being coy. He was just making fun of people's perception of him, nothing more. He literally says he surpassed Orochimaru 5 seconds later, and we know he was only achieved Sage Mode by artificially obtaining a stronger body than the one Orochimaru possessed, so yeah it really isn't as surefire as you say IMHO.
None of that needs to be referring to physical strength, especially not when Itachi was clearly deteriorating during the fight, and fast.
Which statements? You mean this? This is clearly in reference to his Susano'o possessing the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror, not its raw power or durability.
In terms of sheer scaling though, the Susano'o is still up there man. Like Susano'o >>>> Eight Branches Orochimaru > Orochimaru >~ Manda ~ Biju level. I dunno about you, but that's strong as hell in my book.
All of those points were addressed in the original thread, but in any case, this isn't the time or place for this discussion.You know I actually wanted to challenge that on the thread where it was axed but when I brought up my problems I was told the thread wasn't for scaling or smthn
Sure, they may or may not be stronger at various points, but without actual proof for it, we really can't say or assume anything at all.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, maybe you should read your own scan carefully. Kisame makes it clear in the very next sentence that he only said this due to his marvelous control over his Bijuu and his ability to undergo Partial Bijuu Transformation. And again, if their full on Bijuu Modes are relative, no reason to say their Version 2 states wouldn't be as well.
Still meh. Mifune had momentum, Sasuke was stationary and only blocking. In any case, I do think Mifune should scale to Sasuke's physicals, so there's that. It's probably his and Hanzo's most solid scaling route tbh.
The whole hideout is demolished due to the fight, but that in and of itself doesn't really prove anything. It doesn't mean Sakura scales to the Iron Sand, especially not when all we've seen her do on-screen for the most part is dodge the IS. It's not like we've ever seen Sakura tank attacks from the Iron Sand or anything like that, quite the opposite, really.
No, you actually can't lol.
Well, sure. They're all extremely high quality puppets at the end of the day, and the nature of 100 High end Jonin level puppets armed to the teeth with nearly impossible to counter poison is indeed pretty insane lol. The deadliness of it is pretty nuts. And yeah, some of those puppets may be stronger than the 3KK puppet, and his main body is more than likely the strongest one for obvious reasons. None of them have any real reason or backing that'd scale them physically to the Iron Sand, though. It's not like the 3KK puppet scales to it either, so even if I concede that some of the other puppets may be on the 3KK's level or above, it really doesn't change much of anything.
I don't know if you're just exaggerating for dramatic effect lol, but you chose a horrible example here. We definitely saw enough of Madara and Hashirama's battles to surmise how they generally compare to each other. Like it's very clear that they're comparable lol. We saw them clashing physically more than once, and we saw quite a few of their Jutsu interacting as well, so while we don't know absolutely everything, we definitely know enough to give them pretty solid scaling.
Comparing that to an off-screen fight between two mainly mid to long range poison users is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Then we agree there.
Take this instead
Me rn^
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Are the Bible wars finally over?
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One can only hope lmao
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This should be considered morally wrong lolWell, uhhh, **** lol. This is getting outta hand, so I'll just need to put my foot down here and say that this is going to be THE FINAL mega post in this thread. I'm saying it right now, I'm not making another one of these lol
Obviously everyone is welcome to argue whatever point they may still have contentions with, but pleeaaaaaaaase, for the love of god just not in this format. It's too painful and time consuming to engage in it.
So here's what we're gonna do here moving forward. The debate between Sparkle and myself should cease with this post. I genuinely believe we've both said everything there is to say regarding these points in the mega posts we made thus far. Going any further would just be circular, and kind of a massive waste of time and effort.
So what ya'll need to do right now is just go through the posts carefully (it's a tall order, I know. And I'm sorry lol), and then decide which of our points you agree with. Whoever gets the majority agreement from staff and knowledgeable members, simply has his points go through I guess.
And that's it, really.
I'm going to update the justifications as well as the values sandbox sometime tomorrow. I can't be asked to do it right now after writing all of this lmao.
So yeah, cheers everyone, and Godspeed going through this post
I am not welcome. Not welcome at all. I am coping, seething, and malding right now.
You need more than vague implications in order to get a solid rating. The fact of the matter is that we have zero clue as to how that fight could've went.
There's nothing that really conclusively proves that MS had to be physically comparable to Sage Mode Naruto. He could've just been comparable with the Susano'o. It could've been Amaterasu. It could've been Chidori. We just don't know. The main headline is that Sasuke doesn't have to be physically comparable to harm Naruto.
Also, even assuming Naruto sensed Sasuke's true power on the way there when he was still in Sage Mode, that would include the Susano'o anyway, given that Sasuke used his strongest version of it against Kakashi not long before his arrival. Additionally, we need to consider the fact that Sage Mode, while very powerful, doesn't actually last that long, and isn't exactly very viable in spontaneous 1v1 combat. Back during those times, Naruto always either needed to already be in Sage Mode before engaging in combat, like what he did against Pain, or he needed to have others buy time for him to enter the form. So if Sasuke just popped in suddenly to fight Naruto and destroy the village, it's not like he's gonna just wait around for Naruto to build up Nature Energy and enter Sage Mode. I'm only bringing all this up to say that Naruto wanting a power up makes perfect sense, as he needed a more sustainable and easily accessible power up, which later came in the form of KCM.
My larger point is this: This whole thing is just too vague. We don't have enough to really build any solid conclusion off of. All we can really say is that maybe Naruto thought his abilities in Sage Mode would match up against Sasuke's with the MS to the point of them killing each other, but they don't really need to have equal AP to achieve this. They have a multitude of win conditions against each other. So I still disagree with them scaling to each other. It's not like the proposed scaling makes it so them competing in terms of stats impossible anyway. Sasuke can still compete with Naruto using his Susano'o and Chidori.
Well, like I said, he has the Susano'o, as well as a multitude of other abilities that could easily kill Naruto, so even if we use this statement at face value, it's not like it's contradicted. That fight would be close no matter what, but it doesn't have to be as simple as "they must be equal in AP for the fight to be viable". The stats can be variable a little bit because their powers are so nuanced and multi-faceted.
It doesn't because Itachi already scales much higher than this version of Sasuke does.
If we look at the entire scan, we can see that the larger context is indeed still about the Rasenshuriken, IMO. And if we're being honest here, it's not like Naruto really showed anything in his fight against Kakuzu that demonstrates any form of superiority to Kakashi outside of the Rasenshuriken. Like, he got shat on physically just like everyone else, his performance really wasn't all that impressive in terms of his base AP.
So yeah, I'm personally not too hot on Naruto scaling directly to or above Kakashi based on this, even if he already does indirectly. However, it doesn't really change much in practice, so I'm willing to accept it if everyone else is cool with it. It's a minor thing that doesn't really change much.
Yeah, no, this scan does not prove that the Rasengan is equal in AP to the Raikiri at all, so this whole scaling chain you put forth falls flat.
Here you go
No, that makes no sense. Yes, hatred amps should be permanent, but they are applied to your Dojutsu, as that's where they come from and that's where they have an effect. There's zero evidence that the Uchiha in question receives an equivalent amp to their base form as well. At the very least, there isn't enough for us to derive a 10x amp from it, at all.
Read the Multiplier page carefully and you'll know why.
Okay, so there's two problems here.
1) There isn't any evidence that the poison weakened Naruto prior to the point where we clearly see its effect taking place. There was no real indication that he was affected prior to that. Even if we assume that he was, though, we would still have no idea as to what degree he was affected. So by and large, this point is kinda irrelevant in my view.
2) This was a Sasuke who was just about to go blind, assuming he hadn't already. He was a Sasuke who was feeling the horrendous effects from a prolonged day of absolutely abusing his body and eyes to the point of matching years' worth of blindness and damage in Itachi's case, in only a matter of hours. He was healed at a couple of junctures, sure, but I don't think its reasonable to say that Naruto should be scaling to Sasuke at his peak when he clearly wasn't at his peak. Even if we take the heals he received into consideration, he undid them soon after by overusing his Mangekyou Sharingan even more against Kakashi. So yeah, this one I just don't agree with.
Already addressed more or less everything related to this topic, but like, Sasuke was blind lmao. Him recovering is kinda irrelevant, cause he didn't have access to his most powerful weapons anymore.
Sparkle, buddy, you gotta stop taking everything so literally and actually look at things for what they are. First of all, this is a completely different Rasenshuriken variant, so it's literally irrelevant when to comes to how the original Futon Rasenshuriken functions. Secondly, he say "explode", but it clearly doesn't lmao. It expands and cuts the Divine Tree.
You make a lot of arguments in each of these paragraphs, so I'll address them in order as they come.
It doesn't apply to the Bijuu Bombs because they inherently function differently from a RS or a Rasengan. They are super condensed masses of chakra, that have a very high physical force when launched, but then have a demonstrably different level of power when they explode as was highlighted in Arc's Bijuudama thread. Your argument would've worked if we ever saw someone completely annihilate an incoming Bijuudama, but that never happens. The closest we came to that was Kurama Mode Naruto deflecting the five Bijuudama, but he didn't destroy or annihilate them Pain-style; he just matched their kinetic energy and sent them flying, where they later exploded after making contact with the mountains they vaporized.
Way to ignore context with that example lol. Base Naruto's Rasengan defeated an extremely weakened and fatigued, damn near-death Tendo, so the example just doesn't work at all.
The Kakuzu example doesn't work at all either. You saying that having millions (or more) tiny cellular sized blades violating your body from every direction "had something to do with him being unable to move probably" is hilarious. It had everything to do with it. It's explicitly what paralyzed him, and it would obviously do damage. An attack negating durability doesn't mean it doesn't cause physical damage as well lmao.
Madara example is equally as impotent as the Kakuzu one because the guy has regeneration, and because there's no real proof that the Lava Rasenshuriken has the same cellular wind blade shenaniganry that the regular Futon Rasenshuriken does.
Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow
You seriously mean to tell me that an attack that explicitly negates durability destroyed a dude's body??!! Yes, that's exactly what it means lol.
Like, I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp for you, Sparkle. The FRS does damage that, in most cases, happens to negate durability. It's a really simple concept.
Also, no, this doesn't even work in the first place because the Human Path that got deleted was MUCH weaker than the one Jiraiya fought, or even the stronger Konoha Pains that Naruto fought later on. This was Pain, quite literally, at his absolute lowest point. He had the maximum number of bodies active. He had yet recovered from the effects of the Chaotic Shinra Tensei. Finally, he was also far away from Nagato. This version of the Human Path literally scales to 7-B+, so uhh, yeah. A 7-B+ character being absolutely demolished by a 6-C attack that ignores durability isn't exactly the best anti-feat out there......
This paragraph is just full of incredulous statements and shit you just can't back up, so if it's alright with you, I'll just largely ignore it. No offense, but this reply is already long enough.
All these attacks you mention aren't exactly stagnant or stationary amps. They have different performances depending on the version of the characters, their feats, and the context. It's a linear graph, which is why they're rated wildly differently depending on which version of the character we're looking at.
I could give you numerous examples of people tanking Rasengans, too, but it's just pointless because the logic doesn't even take off in the first place.
We don't even take this fight into account here, so yeah, I'm gonna ignore this too to be frank.
I'm not planning to budge either, but since this is my last response in any case, we'll just leave it up to the others in the end.
This point is irrelevant for two big reasons.
1) Like, yeah, it's not accepted yet lol. When it is, we can talk about it.
2) Let's say it gets accepted. It doesn't really change anything. Considering the fact that we're downscaling Gyuki's durability to 4.3 Gigatons from a 15.55 Gigatons value, I think Pain and Naruto downscaling from a 5.68 Gigatons value, or even a 8 Gigatons value, will be just fine. It's really not that large of a downscale lol.
The attack's raw power frightening Kakuzu is irrelevant because it already scales above his durability, so like, whatever.
Everyone you mentioned was either an Edo Tensei or had regeneration. In Kurama's case he both has regeneration and was also an entirely chakra-based construct, so severing his chakra networks really wouldn't do much, but let's just ignore that whole fight cause.......yeah lol. Just not worth arguing about that one imo.
Like I said before, the statement cannot be simultaneously accurate and inaccurate. We either take Fukasaku's word as a reliable source who almost trained both parties, or we do not. I am vehemently against picking and choosing, as I consider it cherry-picking. The first statement isn't really conclusive on its own imo, as it leaves things hanging and doesn't say anything conclusive. The second set of statements also don't change much beyond adding some narrative support to the idea, but they don't really confirm anything either. Like I said, I'm okay with Naruto being considered above Jiraiya, but if we lose the only statement that completely confirms it without a shadow of a doubt, then I believe it becomes far more shaky. I don't care much either way, because I'm personally undecided on the topic anyway.
The Pain statement also isn't good for anything other than being supporting evidence. He only said that Naruto pushed him the farthest out of everyone he fought, which makes sense since he was down to his last Path by that point. This a feat that Jiraiya didn't really even come close to replicating. However, he never calls Naruto his toughest opponent, or asserts that he's the strongest one or anything of the sort.
Naruto making clones has never really nerfed him before, so I really don't see why this would be any different. It'd be one thing if Kurama was actively trying to steal his chakra like Gyuki and Bee initially thought he would, but we know for a fact that he did no such thing.
His clones get easily negged because that's just the nature of Shadow Clones, they have really low durability and usually go poof when connected against by any direct attack.
I really don't see any significant difference here if I'm being honest. Surely, at the very least, not some MAJOR NOTICEABLE damage. The Deity Gates don't really have any direct correlation to Hashirama's Wood Release's durability, but considering the fact that Naruto destroyed two Wood Dragons with this technique, then he obviously scales with it. However, it should be noted that Naruto used a MASSIVE Cho Odama Rasenshuriken here, so it wouldn't even scale to his regular one lol. It's obviously far stronger for reasons I hope I don't have to explain.
The final amount he absorbed was 9, meaning the number of tails absorbed is irrelevant and shouldn't be used as a direct scaling method. We have no solid way of asserting that the amount of Kurama chakra that KCM utilizes is superior to that which KN6 did, so we won't. It's as simple as that.
Sure, but the other points still stand regardless.
Mate, she scales. She definitely scales. The Raikage did this to Madara's Humanoid Susano'o. The Humanoid Susano'o scales to 15.55 Gigatons. Tsunade was stated to be stronger than the Raikage. It really is as simple as it comes lol. And knocking the Humanoid Susano'o into the dirt definitely scales her to it, especially because she was extremely low on chakra at that point, and ran out not long after.
It's possible, but not exactly proven, especially not with Obito's history of holding back against Kakashi and Naruto in order to prove certain points to himself or them. In this case, there's also the extra added motivation of maneuvering the fight in a way that'll get him stabbed through the heart.
He knocked back a jobbing Obito, yes.
No. He doesn't. He injured an off-guard Obito's torso. Gut punches hurt really badly when you're not bracing for them, any one who's ever fought before can vouch for this fact. Well, tbh the principle kinda applies to all physical blows to some extent. In real life combat, seeing an attack coming or not can be the sole difference between rolling with it and being just fine, or getting your lights shut down and knocked out.
Additionally, the more than three times amp was only stated for the potency of Kakashi's Kamui, not really his general abilities, so you can't use this statement to derive a physical multiplier for Kakashi.
His knee......which Obito casually injured himself, yes. A 4.3 Gigatons character surviving attacks from another 4.3 Gigatons character who's higher on the scaling chain isn't really something crazy, at all. Blocking the Shuriken is a feat for Kakashi's Mud Wall, not really his physicals, but you're right it should be included.
Yes, this is how a fight against a jobbing Obito went. Also I'd like to mention the fact that kakashi had a Kyuubi Cloak when Obito teleported him, so it's not out of the question that he was also amped during this fight anyway. The amp was also more than likely significantly larger than the one Kakashi had the first time around.
You're just speculating here. Could Obito have done it in any other way? Maybe. It really doesn't matter, though. We know his plan was to have Kakashi stab through his heart (likely due to some sick Rin parallel he had in his head among other potential reasons, but that's besides the point), so ultimately that's what we'll go with. It's pointless to speculate about him having other, better options, when we know this one was the one he wanted to go with for one reason or another.
This is confidence scaling based on an entirely off-screen fight, where Kakashi and Minato likely weren't even trying to kill BZ + Obito because they didn't wish to kill Obito. I hope that, on some level, you can somewhat acknowledge why this is shaky at best. I personally can't accept it, but like with many other things, if the others agree with you on this, then it is what it is I guess. I maintain that it's about as far from solid as it gets, though.
We don't really know how Hashirama reached that state. It could've been through physical clashes, sure, but it could've also been damage accrued through being hit with Madara's Katon Jutsu, his Susano'o, his Uchiha Reflection, or literally anything else. It's impossible to say for sure. What we know for sure is that they're physically comparable to each other, more or less, so let's just keep things simple and go with that.
It does line up, and you'll see exactly how when we get to the Top Tiers revision
They're pretty direct in my view. Since you concede to the second one being direct, I won't talk about it.
The other one is just good support to the notion that he's above Hiruzen. If everyone fighting Nine-Tails, including Hiruzen, was waiting for his arrival specifically, then that heavily implies that he's stronger than Hiruzen, which is already something we know for sure given other statements and the fact that Minato actually defeated him in combat, BUT it's never bad to have extra support for something. This just makes his superiority to Hiruzen (outside of Prime Hiruzen, anyway) one of his most supported aspects of his scaling, which is important to have when a character is as lacking in direct AP feats as Minato is.
Would be decent if Naruto and Kakashi knew the extent of everyone's abilities, but they do not. These statements really aren't as solid or as clear-cut as you make them out to be.
Well, he's not fodder in AP, so I don't even know what you're talking about here. Him not scaling to Kurama tier AP doesn't make him fodder lmao.
Non-specific, general, or vague statements are usually context dependent.
Sure, but that doesn't include absolutely everyone, and certainly not every Jutsu at their disposal either. Minato has some very clear-cut scaling statements, so let's just stick to them and move on, please. I appreciate you repping your favorite character and all that, but I think you should know by now that the more "out there" metas and vague hype statements just won't go very far here.
What's a maybe? Him scaling to Ay? If I haven't made it clear already, I do think he scales to V2 Ay. That's why I have that shit in his justification lol.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell, glad you agree-ish to drop it, so yeah let's move on.
I mean, he kinda is? He's definitely on that level for sure.
Sage Mode Minato > Minato >~ Ay > KCM Naruto < Rinnegan Obito > War Arc Kakashi
So he ends up there anyway.
But as for your argument itself, I don't buy it personally. Kakashi explicitly states that he teleported the Rasengan before it did any real damage. It mainly damaged his clothing.
How about you take this instead?
But nah, seriously, I wanna stop for a moment and make something clear.
If at any point it seems like I'm being overly aggressive, rude, or anything like that, I apologize. I mean no offense to you personally, and any jab I take are aimed purely at the arguments themselves, and are mostly just in good fun. I respect you, and appreciate the passion, time, and effort it takes to make such massive and detailed posts, since I made some myself lol. So yeah, all the love and respect brother,but still **** you for making the posts this big kek.
Not at all the same since Naruto can just enter SPSM whenever he likes, while Jiraiya cannot do the same with Sage Mode.
The top statement is just a random hype text that could mean literally anything. You're acting like it's confirmed that it's referring to Sage Mode, but it's not, like at all.
It's headcanon because you're forcibly extracting additional meaning from a clear cut statement. Pain is saying that the Sannin have unique abilities. That's it. That's all that means. You saying that what he actually means is that Orochimaru is equal to Sage Mode Jiraiya in AP is completely baseless.
Even if he factored Sage Mode into what he was saying, it still doesn't really matter. All he's saying is that Jiraiya lived up to his legendary reputation as one of the Sannin. Saying that there's a subtext here about that actually meaning that Sage Jiraiya is only equal to base Orochimaru is a bit of a stretch IMHO.
Sparkle, you really almost had me in the first half ngl. We agree on the first part, which is good. The second part is where I take issue. They all scale to the same value, like literally. Even before I adjusted the Rasenshuriken scaling, the difference really wasn't as massive as you seem to think it is. Jiraiya can definitely compete. He's insanely skilled, insanely intelligent, insanely resourceful, and insanely varied in his arsenal. All he really needs to compete with the Gokage is to be in their general ballpark of power, aka Bijuu level, which he now will be. It really is as simple as that.
Also the KCM vs KN4 claim is baseless. You can't prove that KCM Naruto is inherently superior to KN4 Naruto in stats, so yeah. The point is rather moot, I'm afraid.
No offense, but literally every word you spouted here is baseless. You can't prove anything you said here.
Even if I grant you that Nagato moved with Tendo in that instance, we still do not know where he was based, so we still can't really compare this Tendo to either Konoha or Amekagure Tendo. You could maybe say he should be in a similar ballpark, but that's really about all you can juice out of it.
Orochimaru being "unimpressed" doesn't change the fact that Naruto shows clear physical superiority to this version of Orochimaru. These statements, coming from an arrogant prick, won't exactly make any of us ignore the feats we plainly see before our very eyes.
The Sasuke thing is also extremely meh. Orochimaru was desperate as hell at that point, and was very clearly coping hard loljust like you are now, it's so sad.
If that's the case, then it's a potentially cool Lifting Strength feat for Orochimaru whenever we get to that part of the revisions.
So you just admitted to ignoring the larger context in order to fit your own agenda???? Like what bro?????? It's textbook cherry-picking at its finest.
Look, that feat is fine and all, but it's just so overwhelmingly outnumbered by the other showings of Naruto being stronger. Which is why we can't, and won't, use it as justification to get Orochimaru to scale to KN4 in any way shape or form. At best it's an outlier.
First off, him summoning a 6-C shield really says nothing about his own durability or AP, so I'm not even sure how this is relevant in any way to your larger "Orochimaru > base Jiraiya" narrative, but I'll bite.
We're not gonna scale the Rashomon to 6-C when their only feat was getting literally Hakai'd by a 6-C attack lol, get outta here with that shit. So yes, it'll only stay at "far higher", because we don't scale characters or objects to attacks that completely eviscerate them. Also, there was three of them, making this whole thing that much worse.
And.......uh, yeah, obviously Orochimaru was one of the strongest Shinobi in the world lol, but that really isn't saying much when looking at the Shinobi World holistically and the fact that we only follow relevant, strong characters for the most part. Just being a Jonin already makes you an "elite Shinobi", since Shinobi are mostly comprised of Genin and Chunin fodder. And in any case, this really offers no meaningful comparison with Jiraiya as he's also obviously one of the strongest, most revered Shinobi in the world.
Sparkle, this is one of the most cookie-cutter Lifting Strength feats I may have ever seen. Orochimaru literally just pops out and lifts Naruto with his Kusanagi Blade, and then slams him down. He does absolutely zero damage.
The exclamation mark means nothing beyond the fact that Naruto was surprised by Orochimaru's surprise attack
Perhaps not 80x, sure, but we make do with the values we have. We're not going to assign Orochimaru with an arbitrarily higher value just because you can't believe he's that much weaker, it's like the definition of arguing from incredulity lol.
But to answer your question, no, I'm not arguing these things purely to discredit your arguments against Jiraiya. I just genuinely believe you're being EXTREMELY generous with your interpretation of Orochimaru's performance against Naruto. Feats are >>>>> statements after all, doubly so for random confidence statements uttered by an arrogant troll, and triply so if the statements are just overwhelmingly outnumbered by anti-feats.
I simply refuse to scale Orochimaru to or above a character who's explicitly shown to be physically superior to him. That's all I've got to say about that.
Not really, no. I already addressed my issues with the Sage Mode Naruto ~ Mangekyou Sharingan Sasuke thing, so I won't go over it anymore. But it's not like there being some variance inside that scaling chain changes anything really. It also doesn't help that we don't know the degree of superiority that Sasuke holds over Orochimaru at that point. Again, just very vague stuff that won't get anywhere. It's not like two characters being superior to another two inherently means that the inferior duo are equal or anything.
I probably couldn't stress to you how irrelevant it is if I tried. Yes, the Sannin are superior to Danzo. Nobody really claimed otherwise. They're 6-C, and he's High 7-A. Him having one or two attacks (one which is amped with his summon at that) that maybe scale higher really doesn't change that lol. Also for the sake of the argument, we have no real reason to assume that Hiruzen knew of Danzo's current capabilities anyway. The man was literally collaborating with Orochimaru himself for years behind his back, and that's not even mentioning the numerous experiments he conducted on his own body in order to enhance it, so it's not like this is some killer argument in any case.
We. Just. Don't. Know. We don't know how much his SM amped him because the man had Perfect Sage Mode as well as additional genetic buffs that made it even stronger. Likewise, we have no way of knowing exactly how powerful his "base" was at that point. So you really shouldn't be making any sweeping claims about it. Also, like, Sage Naruto was definitely weaker than Jiriaya and Orochimaru in base, yet he managed to surpass them with Sage Mode apparently, so it's not like it's something unheard of or out of the question.
It was never explicitly stated that he is only on this level with Sage Mode. I'm not saying we should scale him to Orochimaru without Sage Mode, but it really isn't the surefire slam dunk you think it is lol.
The "I am nothing compared to Lord Orochimaru" is just Kabuto being coy. He was just making fun of people's perception of him, nothing more. He literally says he surpassed Orochimaru 5 seconds later, and we know he was only achieved Sage Mode by artificially obtaining a stronger body than the one Orochimaru possessed, so yeah it really isn't as surefire as you say IMHO.
None of that needs to be referring to physical strength, especially not when Itachi was clearly deteriorating during the fight, and fast.
Which statements? You mean this? This is clearly in reference to his Susano'o possessing the Totsuka Blade and Yata Mirror, not its raw power or durability.
In terms of sheer scaling though, the Susano'o is still up there man. Like Susano'o >>>> Eight Branches Orochimaru > Orochimaru >~ Manda ~ Biju level. I dunno about you, but that's strong as hell in my book.
All of those points were addressed in the original thread, but in any case, this isn't the time or place for this discussion.
Sure, they may or may not be stronger at various points, but without actual proof for it, we really can't say or assume anything at all.And again the 30% thing isn't currently accepted so gg.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, maybe you should read your own scan carefully. Kisame makes it clear in the very next sentence that he only said this due to his marvelous control over his Bijuu and his ability to undergo Partial Bijuu Transformation. And again, if their full on Bijuu Modes are relative, no reason to say their Version 2 states wouldn't be as well.
Still meh. Mifune had momentum, Sasuke was stationary and only blocking. In any case, I do think Mifune should scale to Sasuke's physicals, so there's that. It's probably his and Hanzo's most solid scaling route tbh.
The whole hideout is demolished due to the fight, but that in and of itself doesn't really prove anything. It doesn't mean Sakura scales to the Iron Sand, especially not when all we've seen her do on-screen for the most part is dodge the IS. It's not like we've ever seen Sakura tank attacks from the Iron Sand or anything like that, quite the opposite, really.
No, you actually can't lol.
Well, sure. They're all extremely high quality puppets at the end of the day, and the nature of 100 High end Jonin level puppets armed to the teeth with nearly impossible to counter poison is indeed pretty insane lol. The deadliness of it is pretty nuts. And yeah, some of those puppets may be stronger than the 3KK puppet, and his main body is more than likely the strongest one for obvious reasons. None of them have any real reason or backing that'd scale them physically to the Iron Sand, though. It's not like the 3KK puppet scales to it either, so even if I concede that some of the other puppets may be on the 3KK's level or above, it really doesn't change much of anything.
I don't know if you're just exaggerating for dramatic effect lol, but you chose a horrible example here. We definitely saw enough of Madara and Hashirama's battles to surmise how they generally compare to each other. Like it's very clear that they're comparable lol. We saw them clashing physically more than once, and we saw quite a few of their Jutsu interacting as well, so while we don't know absolutely everything, we definitely know enough to give them pretty solid scaling.
Comparing that to an off-screen fight between two mainly mid to long range poison users is a bit ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Then we agree there.
Me rn^
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Honestly my only gripe was the SM RS stuff but that got rectified. I agree with Slayer on his takes with Naruto vs Sasuke, Kakashi Obito Minato stuff, the Oro vs Naruto stuff, and most everything else (just naming the major ones that stuck out to me). I’d say I’m neutral on SM Jiraiya vs SM Naruto, but I don’t think it matters cuz they’d end up scaling off the same value anyway.
One thing I see sparkle taking issues with a lot are specific values. And to that I say, you gotta realize that we can only work with the values we accept from calcs and accepted multipliers. So when a character scales to a certain tier, it’s not to say they are limited by that tier, but rather that is simply the value they scale off of, stronger than it or not. That’s why we get stuff like 7-B Oro, or everyone being 6-C baseline in values. Not because everyone is equal strength, but because that is the sole value they can scale off of.
But just to discount double check, we are removing the SM RS = physicals here and now? By here and now I mean in this thread? If so great, if not…
One thing I see sparkle taking issues with a lot are specific values. And to that I say, you gotta realize that we can only work with the values we accept from calcs and accepted multipliers. So when a character scales to a certain tier, it’s not to say they are limited by that tier, but rather that is simply the value they scale off of, stronger than it or not. That’s why we get stuff like 7-B Oro, or everyone being 6-C baseline in values. Not because everyone is equal strength, but because that is the sole value they can scale off of.
But just to discount double check, we are removing the SM RS = physicals here and now? By here and now I mean in this thread? If so great, if not…
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Yuh, we are. I'm gonna update both sandboxes sometime tomorrow, and then ya'll can double check everything.
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Awesome, I look forward to it so I can continue working you in the basement on skim milk and white bread for the top tiers
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If you ever write a reply that big again I'm blocking you on all platforms
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Grass needs to be touched
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Nah touching grass ain’t enough, they gotta climb a tree or something
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Or eat a salad
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Ya'll are scared to read it, imagine how it felt writing the damn thing
MinatoSparkle
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Ok so we're definitely done with the mega posts but I just got a few more little things to say (and I do actually mean it this time, this reply's very tame all things considered).
/lover, and Naruto trained with Jiraiya for years. Also you haven't really mentioned the databook statement at all, which is WoG, meaning it's knowledge isn't limited. I think that at least is PRETTY decent supporting evidence.
**** you too brotha 
Well regardless having extra support is never a bad thing
Yeah but that is the Tendo that deflected SM Naruto's RS seconds prior.
Even after he realized what was happening, Kakashi's second gut punch and him punching Obito in the face still drew blood. The entire context of that scene was to inform how strong the current amp was anyways so if it's far more logical to indeed be referencing general attributes.
I mean Kakashi did feel Orochimaru's chakra when he faced him in P1, Kakashi most certainly knows about Guy's abilities as his eternal rival and long time bestie
Uhhhhhhhhhhh
Idk mate confidence scaling may not be as good as direct feats and statements, but the confidence scaling is CONSISTENT AF for >7-B Orochimaru. Thinks 1T Naruto is fodder, believes he can defeat Sasuke and only didn't cause Sasuke waited for the day Orochimaru misjudged his progress (and was at his weakest point, hmmmmm kinda sus that he didn't have an opportunity to revolt until then...), Sasuke himself feels the need to go CM1 against him immediately and eventually even CM2, Suigetsu even notes that Sasuke only won cause Oro was sick (not cause he lost his arms, cause he was SICK specifically), etc. If nothing else, a possibly 7-A/High 7-A is warranted.The Sasuke thing is also extremely meh. Orochimaru was desperate as hell at that point, and was very clearly coping hard loljust like you are now, it's so sad.
Yeaaaaah normally I'd be okay with that but neither weapons are treated as ignoring AP or durability atm (which is cap) so in the current profiles I think a statement about their capability is important.
A pain only you and I will understandYa'll are scared to read it, imagine how it felt writing the damn thing
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Since you actually meant it this time, I will actually respond. Definitely not right now though lol. I'm too drained for obvious reasonsOk so we're definitely done with the mega posts but I just got a few more little things to say (and I do actually mean it this time, this reply's very tame all things considered).
Well regardless having extra support is never a bad thing
Yeah but that is the Tendo that deflected SM Naruto's RS seconds prior.
Even after he realized what was happening, Kakashi's second gut punch and him punching Obito in the face still drew blood. The entire context of that scene was to inform how strong the current amp was anyways so if it's far more logical to indeed be referencing general attributes.
I mean Kakashi did feel Orochimaru's chakra when he faced him in P1, Kakashi most certainly knows about Guy's abilities as his eternal rival and long time bestie/lover, and Naruto trained with Jiraiya for years. Also you haven't really mentioned the databook statement at all, which is WoG, meaning it's knowledge isn't limited. I think that at least is PRETTY decent supporting evidence.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh
**** you too brotha
Idk mate confidence scaling may not be as good as direct feats and statements, but the confidence scaling is CONSISTENT AF for >7-B Orochimaru. Thinks 1T Naruto is fodder, believes he can defeat Sasuke, Sasuke himself feels the need to go CM1 against him immediately and eventually even CM2, Suigetsu even notes that Sasuke only won cause Oro was sick (not cause he lost his arms, cause he was SICK specifically), etc. If nothing else, a possibly 7-A is warranted.
Yeaaaaah normally I'd be okay with that but neither weapons are treated as ignoring AP or durability atm (which is cap) so in the current profiles I think a statement about their capability is important.
Ped2018
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I wasn't scared to read it. I'm scared at the fact that I managed to read itYa'll are scared to read it, imagine how it felt writing the damn thing
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KT can read?
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@UchihaSlayer96 Can I get a summary on which, if any, of GokuSparkle's suggestions you've accepted?
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Based asf
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Finally, a response that took 15 minutes or so to write lmfao......
I believe this interpretation holds regardless of the RS/ST scaling, unless you want to argue 6-C base Naruto, which just doesn't make much sense.
Uh, sure, he was saying that the full on cloaks are far stronger, and we see that in action. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the "over 3x" figure itself was specified for how much his Kamui in particular was amped.
The Guy thing is pretty iffy, because while Kakashi knows about the Gates, that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows how powerful Guy is with them. It's not like Guy just uses them willy nilly, especially not during their friendly competitions lol.Also Kakashi doesn't even really consider him a rival lol, that's more of a Guy thing.
DB statements are too vague like we've already said. They offer nothing that can give him any solid scaling, at least not more than what his more solid statements offer.
As for the Sasuke stuff, all that really proves is that Orochimaru used to be a lot stronger than Sasuke, and that version of 1-3T Naruto as a consequence, at some point in the past, and we acknowledge that in his profile since we scale Prime Oro above CS2 Sasuke. It doesn't really apply to the version of P2 Oro that we see, though.
And trust me, there's more to come.
But yeah, I don't think that statement works because it's very clearly just about the weapons' abilities imo.Also how on earth would a shield ignore dura anyway? :UsoppLaugh:
Sure ig, that's fine.
Yes, but you have to realize that at this point Nagato had expended an enormous amount of Chakra throughout the fight thus far. He recovered somewhat from the CST, yes, but it's still a move that takes a massive physical toll on him and shortens his lifespan. I'm only mentioning this because his usage of the Chibaku Tensei later on was clearly the straw that broke the camel's back for him. He was very clearly at his physical and chakra limitations at that point. So in my humble opinion, I think it makes sense that Tendo would also physically deteriorate rapidly. He received a blow from SM Naruto, then used two Shinra Tensei in quick succession, so I believe it makes sense that this would rapidly weaken him in such an already compromised state. Hell, we even see him collapsing right before Naruto's final Rasengan hits him, which just cements what I've been saying.
I believe this interpretation holds regardless of the RS/ST scaling, unless you want to argue 6-C base Naruto, which just doesn't make much sense.
Him realizing what was happening doesn't mean he's had a chance to brace himself. He was too busy getting his ass beat. In any case, I still maintain that this is only a feat for amped Kakashi. It'll eventually be indexed because we're planning to incorporate Kyuubi Amped keys for several Alliance members soon-ish, so we'll see.
Uh, sure, he was saying that the full on cloaks are far stronger, and we see that in action. Still, it doesn't change the fact that the "over 3x" figure itself was specified for how much his Kamui in particular was amped.
Orochimaru casually ******** on P1 Kakashi doesn't mean that Kakashi knows the extent of his abilities, just that he's far superior to him. Also, Minato scales above Oro both directly and indirectly, so this doesn't even seem all that relevant. Ditto for Jiraiya.
The Guy thing is pretty iffy, because while Kakashi knows about the Gates, that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows how powerful Guy is with them. It's not like Guy just uses them willy nilly, especially not during their friendly competitions lol.
DB statements are too vague like we've already said. They offer nothing that can give him any solid scaling, at least not more than what his more solid statements offer.
I mean, okay? Considering the fact that even base Minato scales considerably above Coccashi, then I don't see what SAGE MINATO's Rasengan damaging him is supposed to prove? Like, yeah, he's stronger than Kakashi and can damage him. That's it. And I already explained why it's entirely plausible for Minato to be scaling above Obito in terms of AP anyway, especially in Sage Mode, so yeah. No issues whatsoever IMO.
**** you too brotha
What Orochimaru thinks of 1-3T Naruto doesn't matter when we directly see Naruto ******** on him.
As for the Sasuke stuff, all that really proves is that Orochimaru used to be a lot stronger than Sasuke, and that version of 1-3T Naruto as a consequence, at some point in the past, and we acknowledge that in his profile since we scale Prime Oro above CS2 Sasuke. It doesn't really apply to the version of P2 Oro that we see, though.
I think you need to take a look at Itachi's P&A section, cause it had a bit of a glow-up, especially in regards to his Dojutsu section. I gave the Yata Mirror and Totsuka Blade quite a bit of hax, is what I'm trying to say lol.
But yeah, I don't think that statement works because it's very clearly just about the weapons' abilities imo.
Yeah, of course.
So here are the highlights:
1) Since I didn't want to leave any doors open for 6-C base Bee, I decided to downgrade Guruguru's Mokuton to.......uh, well, I'm honestly not sure what he'll scale to yet. It should scale above Yamato's Mokuton, since it's just a massively enhanced version of that, but I'm not sure what it'll be yet exactly. As for why he was downgraded, it's because we decided to downgrade Yamato's Mokuton (more on that below) and because there's no real reason for the Mokuton itself to scale to the Jutsu which matched Hiruzen in the first place. So that's something we still need to decide, but yeah, this'll affect the Raikage(s)'s base AP, Karin's chains, and of course both of Guruguru and Yamato's Mokuton.
2) Somewhat related to the above point, but Yamato will also lose his 'At most 6-C', because his feats against KN4 Naruto are pretty much LS, in addition to the fact that Mokuton specifically weakens Bijuu chakra users. He should probably be somewhere in the 7-B+ range, but I'm not sure what his justification will be yet.
3) I agreed that we can add Jiraiya's hype statements about Minato to his justification as extra support. It doesn't cause issues, makes sense, and is isolated. I took issue with pretty much everything else Minato related, though lmao.
4) I also agreed that nobody should scale physically to the 5.68 value for the Rasenshuriken, so basically most of the characters will be scaling from the 4.3 Gigatons value now, to varying degrees of course.
5) This one I didn't really agree with, but the whole 'Akatsuki Suppression Naruto being >~ Kakashi' thing I left up to ya'll to decide. I made my arguments for why I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's a more interpretation based-thing, so I can really conclusively shut it down on my own.
@GokuSparkle If I missed something that I already agreed to, or left up to a vote, feel free to mention it of course. If there is something, I probably just missed it due to the posts' magnitude lol, so mb if that happened.
Other than that, I think all that's left is for me to update the sandboxes, and then that should be all.
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Okay, that all sounds fine to me.
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Same.
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it was because Kakashi afterwards takes back his statement in a coy way ,when he learns about the drawbacks
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Godernet
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It absolutely was
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I updated the values sandbox. The Justifications sandbox will take a while longer.
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Yah boy yah
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